Breeding question need help

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ezzy333
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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:40 pm

cjhills wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:
shags wrote:Because in competition there is *one* performance standard and it seems that standard was set by pointers :P . It’s not like Best in Show judging where each dog is compared to a breed standard and the one that fits its standard best, wins.

AFAIK, brittanies go to setters, not so much pointers, for juice - at least in these parts. Blend in easier, I guess :)
You are absolutely right. I bought a MG the other day to haul grain with instead of a Peterbuilt then realized that they were bred for different purposes and both are excellent for their intended purpose. Too bad so many can't see that with our dogs.

Ezzy
I don't exactly get your comparison. But the big difference is all pointing dogs are bred for the same basic purpose. How they achieve it is some what different.
Competitive people do not want buy a pointer to beat a pointer. They want to breed a GSP to beat a pointer. They don"t care if it is half pointer as long as it don't show too much. Some Call it cheating. I call it breeding.
If you like everything about the dog but one or two things that are lacking. Why not breed in what is lacking.
I still think a good dog is a good dog and would like to see what the OPs breeding would produce................Cj
Because you are only breeding in what you think is better, and no one else even gets to vote on it. That is not improving a breed, rather it is you telling us what is better. You maybe able to breed a better dog but not a better GSP, Britt, Pointer or any of the Setters

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by RayGubernat » Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:30 pm

Guys - folks are free to breed what they choose.

BUT

If you breed one breed to another it is a litter of dogs that CANNOT be registered. If a dog cannot be registered it cannot compete in any form of trial or test. Therefore it will never be possible to objectively and independently determine if that crossbreeding did, in fact, lead to a "better" dog.

Of course, if the person doing the cross breeding falsifies the papers, it is indeed possible to register and compete with the products of that crossbreeding. However, as soon as the falsification is discovered... the dog with the falsified pedigree and ALL of its offspring will be stripped of their registration. Eventually, most of these kinds of crossbreedings will be discovered due to DNA testing.

If someone has the time and financial wherewithal to circumvent the system, it would be much faster, easier and ultimately less expensive, to simply buy purebred bird dogs with the attributes you want to see in a dog and breed them to get what is desired.

Bottom line is you can do whatever you want with your dogs, but unless you cheat and misrepresent, a crossbreeding is a genetic dead end in the current sporting dog arena. I cannot support falsification of papers, which is a deliberate misrepresentation...in this day and age.

I cannot speak to some of the pointing breeds, but for Pointers, English Setters, GSP's and Brittanys...there is such a wide variety of skill levels available in each of those breeds, there is absolutely no good reason to crossbreed them deliberately, IMO.

Your dog, your choice... as I said before.

RayG

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by bustingcover » Sun Dec 31, 2017 6:34 am

Honestly it’s a gspxgwp. If you told someone the pups were purebred gwp nobody would know the difference and if both parents hunt you’re most likely gonna get some pups that point feathers and tackle porkies.

I don’t recommend doing the breeding because pups are a headache. But if he’s got some buddies that like his dog and just want a dog to take hunting a few days a year and sit in a boat then those droppers will probably fit the bill.

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by cjhills » Sun Dec 31, 2017 6:59 am

The post(Ray G's) above is exactly where this whole thing jumps the track. The OP is not talking about reinventing the wheel and too insinuate that they would try to register the puppies illegaly is insulting and Beyond silly. Exactly what they want is a genetic dead end. These pups will go generally to families or guides, they will be spayed and neutered and have nice lifes as somebodies pet. Which is the same thing that happens 80% or more of the pups from registered litters. Less than half of my puppies are ever registered.I encourage them to register but it is their choice.I do not give their names to AKC. I respect their privacy. Why would a neutered family pet need registration? Very few of my clients ever intend to breed And most of the pet owners who change their minds when we discuss the issues.
This is a guess but i believe 95% of dog owners would not believe that tests and trials prove anything at all and would not even want the winners. They mean a lot to people like us who believe in them. Not so much to the guy who wants to go out a shoot an occasional limit of pheasants with old "Sparky". As I stated in my first post, one of the best pheasant dogs I have seen was 1/2 springer and 1/2 GSP, second best was a border Collie
One other thing about pedigrees, what good does it do for a first time dog owner to study pedigrees when he knows nothing of the dogs in the pedigree. Far better to look at the dogs in their natural surroundings, not at trials and tests where the dogs are doing what they are trained to do to win Try to see past the BS and hype Try to get a pup from nice, friendly, out going, talented dogs dogs and go from there.You will grow from there.
It is 30 below here this morning. Killing time before going to,the kennel. Thanks...................... Cj

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by RayGubernat » Sun Dec 31, 2017 8:55 am

Too funny -

The previous poster is making the case that over 100 years of selective breeding by dedicated supporters of their respective breeds is not sufficient to produce sporting dogs, in that breed, with uniform and high level talents, abilities and dispositions.

I call BS.

No breeding is 100% guaranteed, but if you have generations of selective breeding for similar traits in both the sire and the dam, your odds of getting pups with high levels of those traits...goes WAAAAY up.

I'd be willing to bet that if a son of Michael Jordan married a daughter of Kareem Abdul Jabbar, ANY children of that union would very likely be pretty tall and also pretty decent basketball players.

To anyone who wants to breed their dogs, I offer this old saw:

If Marilyn Monroe had a child by Albert Einstein, there are two possible outcomes. First, the child could have Marylyn's looks and Albert's brains. Alternatively the child could JUST AS LIKELY have Albert's looks and Marilyn's brains. No way to tell.

THAT is what you are faced with when you breed unknown to unknown. No way to tell what you will end up with.

RayG

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by cjhills » Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:35 am

Or You might get really beautiful smart Children...........Cj

edited by Sharon

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by RayGubernat » Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:50 pm

cjhills wrote: Or You might get really beautiful smart Children...........Cj

Yes you might get beautiful, smart children...OR NOT.
You do not know and cannot tell.

Same with crossbreeds. You do not know and cannot tell.

It simply amazes me that someone who purports to be a breeder does not get such a rudimentary concept.

RayG

edited by Sharon

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by fishvik » Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:18 pm

This is a really interesting discussion. What are the practical net negatives of this breeding? Not many that I see if both parents are fair to good hunters. Both breeds do pretty much the same thing, point and retrieve. The pups can't be registered and I haven't heard anything about the desire to develop a "designer breed" coming from the breeding. They can't play the field trial game, but most bird hunters don't. Positives are getting a good to excellent pointing dog that will retrieve. If a puppy has a wirehair type coat maybe even a cold weather waterfowl dog. The biggest plus is somebody who can't afford a big $$ bird dog may have a dog to train, have a companion and hopefully a dog that can find crippled game and help in the conservation of birds compared to a dogless hunter. A bigger positive is if a kid gets one of those pups, and learns about dog care and his pup helps to instill a life long love of bird hunting.

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by cjhills » Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:43 pm

fishvik wrote:This is a really interesting discussion. What are the practical net negatives of this breeding? Not many that I see if both parents are fair to good hunters. Both breeds do pretty much the same thing, point and retrieve. The pups can't be registered and I haven't heard anything about the desire to develop a "designer breed" coming from the breeding. They can't play the field trial game, but most bird hunters don't. Positives are getting a good to excellent pointing dog that will retrieve. If a puppy has a wirehair type coat maybe even a cold weather waterfowl dog. The biggest plus is somebody who can't afford a big $$ bird dog may have a dog to train, have a companion and hopefully a dog that can find crippled game and help in the conservation of birds compared to a dogless hunter. A bigger positive is if a kid gets one of those pups, and learns about dog care and his pup helps to instill a life long love of bird hunting.
This post is exactly right. There are no negatives.
I have met very few bird dogs that I did not like.
I grew up on a financially challenged farm as did everybody else in my neighborhood. When I was not milking cow, cleaning barns ,or feeding various critters I was in the woods with whatever dog was around at the time. These dogs were nondescript dogs from collies to coon hounds and all kinds of mixtures all would lay down their life for me and one did.They were not specialists but they were what I needed at the time. some would point all would hunt anything that could lay down a scent. I did then and still have always deepest regard for these dogs. When somebody tells me papered dogs are inherently better they are just plain wrong. there are Many wonderful crossbred Dogs that will kick butt on many papered dogs in many ways. They wouldn't win afield trial but the little snotty nosed farm kid loved them dogs and mostly he just got older and bigger. He still does.........Cj

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by ezzy333 » Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:47 pm

fishvik wrote:This is a really interesting discussion. What are the practical net negatives of this breeding? Not many that I see if both parents are fair to good hunters. Both breeds do pretty much the same thing, point and retrieve. The pups can't be registered and I haven't heard anything about the desire to develop a "designer breed" coming from the breeding. They can't play the field trial game, but most bird hunters don't. Positives are getting a good to excellent pointing dog that will retrieve. If a puppy has a wirehair type coat maybe even a cold weather waterfowl dog. The biggest plus is somebody who can't afford a big $$ bird dog may have a dog to train, have a companion and hopefully a dog that can find crippled game and help in the conservation of birds compared to a dogless hunter. A bigger positive is if a kid gets one of those pups, and learns about dog care and his pup helps to instill a life long love of bird hunting.
If a cheap puppy is the goal then breed the best two dogs of any breed together and sell the pups for 10 dollars. They do not need to be mutts so you can sell them cheap.

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by Mike da Carpenter » Sun Dec 31, 2017 7:37 pm

cjhills wrote:
fishvik wrote:This is a really interesting discussion. What are the practical net negatives of this breeding? Not many that I see if both parents are fair to good hunters. Both breeds do pretty much the same thing, point and retrieve. The pups can't be registered and I haven't heard anything about the desire to develop a "designer breed" coming from the breeding. They can't play the field trial game, but most bird hunters don't. Positives are getting a good to excellent pointing dog that will retrieve. If a puppy has a wirehair type coat maybe even a cold weather waterfowl dog. The biggest plus is somebody who can't afford a big $$ bird dog may have a dog to train, have a companion and hopefully a dog that can find crippled game and help in the conservation of birds compared to a dogless hunter. A bigger positive is if a kid gets one of those pups, and learns about dog care and his pup helps to instill a life long love of bird hunting.
This post is exactly right. There are no negatives.
I have met very few bird dogs that I did not like.
I grew up on a financially challenged farm as did everybody else in my neighborhood. When I was not milking cow, cleaning barns ,or feeding various critters I was in the woods with whatever dog was around at the time. These dogs were nondescript dogs from collies to coon hounds and all kinds of mixtures all would lay down their life for me and one did.They were not specialists but they were what I needed at the time. some would point all would hunt anything that could lay down a scent. I did then and still have always deepest regard for these dogs. When somebody tells me papered dogs are inherently better they are just plain wrong. there are Many wonderful crossbred Dogs that will kick butt on many papered dogs in many ways. They wouldn't win afield trial but the little snotty nosed farm kid loved them dogs and mostly he just got older and bigger. He still does.........Cj
Two good posts right there. Thank you both for your thought provoking voice.

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by KCKLH » Sun Dec 31, 2017 9:35 pm

You will probably end up with solid bird dogs as long as the parents are both solid hunters. I can guarantee you at least a half dozen people on this forum have fond memories of a dropper. One of the first american champion setters was a gordon/english cross. Ferrel Miller bred his pointers out to other breeds and I doubt theres a man on this forum that wouldnt give those pups a hard look if their dams were quality setters or GSPs. Id advise against it just because they wont be worth much compared to the rest of the market but if youve got four or five guys thatll give you deposits go for it. Could be a great chance for budget hunters that they dont get very often.

Frankly I disagree with crosses not being allowed to compete in trials. If you can breed a better dog more power to you. It doesnt have to be recognized by a breed club to be a great dog.

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by RayGubernat » Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:58 am

KCKLH wrote:You will probably end up with solid bird dogs as long as the parents are both solid hunters.
I'd advise against it just because they wont be worth much compared to the rest of the market but if youve got four or five guys thatll give you deposits go for it.
I agree with all of the above. My biggest problem with this type of breeding is what to do with the pups you do not want.
If you have four or five folks that will absolutely commit to take puppies from that mating, that is awesome.

Just remember that folks will say one thing, but sometimes will change their mind. Happens all the time with pups.
That is why most breeders require a deposit that is non-refundable before they do the mating.

FWIW, my very first dog was a mixed breed...pointer, setter, with a little GSP in there as well. He came to me because the breeder/owner had too many dogs.

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by fishvik » Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:28 am

If a cheap puppy is the goal then breed the best two dogs of any breed together and sell the pups for 10 dollars.[quote="ezzy333"]

Ezzy, What do you think the possibility is of a good breeder doing this? But if you know of any let me know. I'm sure I can guarentee him a pretty long waiting list for pups. :D

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by cjhills » Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:49 am

If you bring me a litter of say, ten puppies from a nice, good hunting, OFA,d German Wirehair Wire and a nice GSP I will happily sell them for for at least $500 each and split the money with you. I can't guarantee that none of them would need to be relocated but that happens with papered dogs also.
I also like having a 14 year old kid and his dog come hunting with me and have his dog totally kick my dogs butts. If this kid shoots a limit of roosters while my dog is on point 500 yards away guess which dog he thinks is best. Hard to argue that. The other dogs I admire are guide dogs. They earn their money by what they produce.No phony rules and somebodies opinion. Just birds in the bag. This is where the rubber meets the road and I love it............Cj

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by gonehuntin' » Mon Jan 01, 2018 11:04 am

I would only cross two breeds if I were trying to produce a new breed or add something that had been bred out of an existing one. Two examples. Trying to produce a new breed? Labraddoodle or Goldendoodle.

A breed with a trait bred out? Irish setters. Had to cross with English to get the hunting instinct back in to them.

There SHOULD be a reason for a breeding. There is NO reason to breed a GWP to a GSP. Both are great breeds and lacking nothing.

So, ask yourself, what advantage or advancement will this breeding produce or will it just produce more mutt's? In my mind, all you can do with a breeding like this is produce a kennel of unwanted mutt's.

Kind of like the old saying "Let's breed you're no good "bleep" to my no good "bleep" and hope we get a good pup. Sounds kind of foolish huh? These dogs have been bred for a hundred or more years, carefully and selectively to produce the great animals we are blessed with today. Don't screw it up.

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by fishvik » Mon Jan 01, 2018 11:45 am

cjhills wrote:They earn their money by what they produce.No phony rules and somebodies opinion. Just birds in the bag. This is where the rubber meets the road and I love it............Cj
I totally agree CJ. I have almost always had crossbreeds and it is amazing how many friends I have during bird season. :D

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by Featherfinder » Mon Jan 01, 2018 12:30 pm

As I see it, there are lots of folk that have a budget that won't support a well-bred blue-blooded whatever. In-other-words, there is a market for those "mutts". I get it. We all have a budget. Just look at those that hunt upland with a Purdey SxS versus those with a ____ pump. If you ask the guy with the pump, he'll tell you, "I don't need no fancy, expensive SxS to shoot my limit! My gun kills birds just as well or better when waterfowling and I can drag it backwards through the woods without getting teary-eyed." Sometimes, it just is what it is for this very wide snack bracket.

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by RayGubernat » Mon Jan 01, 2018 1:54 pm

Featherfinder wrote:As I see it, there are lots of folk that have a budget that won't support a well-bred blue-blooded whatever. In-other-words, there is a market for those "mutts". I get it. We all have a budget. Just look at those that hunt upland with a Purdey SxS versus those with a ____ pump. If you ask the guy with the pump, he'll tell you, "I don't need no fancy, expensive SxS to shoot my limit! My gun kills birds just as well or better when waterfowling and I can drag it backwards through the woods without getting teary-eyed." Sometimes, it just is what it is for this very wide snack bracket.
Featherfinder -

The only flaw I see in your argument is that the purchase price of the pup is generally one of the smaller expenses relative to owning a pointing dog that does what it is supposed to do in the field. The time and effort and expense it takes to train the pup to a useful level in the field will far exceed the cost of the pup...unless one has wild birds and available acreage to train and run on.

The purchase price of a well bred pointer pup is often less than a year's supply of food for the pup. Never mind all the other stuff.


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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by gonehuntin' » Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:34 pm

RayGubernat wrote: The purchase price of a well bred pointer pup is often less than a year's supply of food for the pup. Never mind all the other stuff.
RayG
Plus, most of the time they train a heck of a lot easier and faster.

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by shags » Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:38 pm

Wouldn’t any halfway decent breeder be a little reluctant to place a pup in a home that could only afford a freebie or $10 pup?
And what’s the OP’s buddy hoping to get out of this breeding? Can he not afford a stud fee or is he trying to save a few bucks? What’s going to happen if his dog winds up with a dead pup stuck and a c-section is needed?
This isn’t a Oops! breeding, where the puppies get placed and that’s that. He’s doing it on purpose and the whole thing stinks.

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by bustingcover » Mon Jan 01, 2018 4:35 pm

shags wrote:Wouldn’t any halfway decent breeder be a little reluctant to place a pup in a home that could only afford a freebie or $10 pup?
And what’s the OP’s buddy hoping to get out of this breeding? Can he not afford a stud fee or is he trying to save a few bucks? What’s going to happen if his dog winds up with a dead pup stuck and a c-section is needed?
This isn’t a Oops! breeding, where the puppies get placed and that’s that. He’s doing it on purpose and the whole thing stinks.

It’s not necessarily what someone can afford some people just don’t feel an initial price SHOULD be high. I personally would never buy a $1000 puppy of any breed. Not because I couldn’t but because I think it’s a foolish to spend over $500 on a puppy who hasn’t proved anything. Many people would prefer a free dog over a money dog especially if they do the same job. If I pay $1000 for a pup and spend $12000 over the life of the dog or if I spend $500 for a pup and spend $12000 over its life then I’m still ahead $500 which is money.

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by gonehuntin' » Mon Jan 01, 2018 4:48 pm

Don't think you'll find many continentals in that $500.00 range. $1,500.00 would be a lot closer. Can't even get a well bred Lab for much less than $1,000.00 these days. Times have changed. Fact is, you get what you pay for. The more proven the breeding, the greater your chance of getting a great dog. I will ALWAYS take that chance.

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by Featherfinder » Mon Jan 01, 2018 4:52 pm

There you go. Bustingcover is making the point I made. Some folk simply WON'T spend that purchase price...period. And, who says they have to spend much more $$$$ afterwards? Feed your dog table scraps mixed with the occasional economy dog food and Bob's-your-Uncle. Take pup out back and run him on the local wild birds if there are any. If the dog gets sick, you have no initial investment. Onwards and upwards.
RayG, if "Ralph" won't spend $300 on a pup what other possible expenses do you think he will incur along the way...honestly?
I'm with you Gonehuntin and RayG in that the initial cost is peanuts over the life of a dog that I expect to bring with him a certain level of pleasure/performance. That doesn't mean we all see it that way. If you're struggling to put food on the table for your family and/or pay the rent, do you seriously think buying a dog for $1000+ is a viable option?
Who am I to tell you where to spend your dollars IF you have them to spend on a dog. But we are not all in the same boat. For some, a free dog or a cheap one is their ONLY option whether they admit it or not. Just because I can be selective, I also respect that we all have a budget. Actually, some have NO budget for a dog but try to find a way. May God bless them.
Last edited by Featherfinder on Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by bustingcover » Mon Jan 01, 2018 4:56 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:Don't think you'll find many continentals in that $500.00 range. $1,500.00 would be a lot closer. Can't even get a well bred Lab for much less than $1,000.00 these days. Times have changed. Fact is, you get what you pay for. The more proven the breeding, the greater your chance of getting a great dog. I will ALWAYS take that chance.
I agree the prices they want for continental/versatile breeds is silly. Someone once told me what they paid for a PP puppy and my jaw drop. Most Pointer and Setter pups off Champion breedings go for a fourth of that. I’ve seen pups off the NC sell for $600 this year. I like the continentals I have a gwp who is a character to have around but I would never pay $2000 for a puppy.

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by bustingcover » Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:02 pm

Featherfinder wrote:There you go. Bustingcover is making the point I made. Some folk simply WON'T spend that purchase price...period. And, who says they have to spend much more than that afterwards? Feed your dog scraps mixed with the occasional economy dog food and Bob's-your-Uncle. Take pup out back and run him on the local wild birds. If the dog gets sick, you have no initial investment. Onwards and upwards.
RayG, if "Ralph" won't spend $300 on a pup what other possible expenses do you think he will incur along the way...honestly?

It honestly doesn’t cost much to care for a dog. I overspend because I’m crazy but decent food, wormer and a collar is all you need. I’ve had plenty of dogs never need major surgery in their lives. And anything you save on the initial price of a dog can be invested back into its care. Just because you can spend x amount of dollars on something doesn’t me you should or have to.

In the scope of the original question if you can get homes for the pups sure who cares it’s not like mixing pointers and flushers. They’re going to be bird dogs. If you can’t get homes for the pups or are unsure about it then just forget about it. It’s not worth the hassle of raising puppies just to get one dog. Easier to buy one. But in the grand scheme of things it’s not a blip on the radar.

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by Sharon » Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:16 pm

bustingcover wrote:
Featherfinder wrote:There you go. Bustingcover is making the point I made. Some folk simply WON'T spend that purchase price...period. And, who says they have to spend much more than that afterwards? Feed your dog scraps mixed with the occasional economy dog food and Bob's-your-Uncle. Take pup out back and run him on the local wild birds. If the dog gets sick, you have no initial investment. Onwards and upwards.
RayG, if "Ralph" won't spend $300 on a pup what other possible expenses do you think he will incur along the way...honestly?

It honestly doesn’t cost much to care for a dog. I overspend because I’m crazy but decent food, wormer and a collar is all you need. I’ve had plenty of dogs never need major surgery in their lives. And anything you save on the initial price of a dog can be invested back into its care. Just because you can spend x amount of dollars on something doesn’t me you should or have to.

In the scope of the original question if you can get homes for the pups sure who cares it’s not like mixing pointers and flushers. They’re going to be bird dogs. If you can’t get homes for the pups or are unsure about it then just forget about it. It’s not worth the hassle of raising puppies just to get one dog. Easier to buy one. But in the grand scheme of things it’s not a blip on the radar.

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by Sharon » Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:18 pm

You must have just been lucky with dogs. An owner can't count on being lucky. I think it costs plenty- good food, tick/flea meds, heartworm meds, emergency appointments etc. etc...

( $1300. attacked by 2 stray dogs in the woods, $2200. attacked by a deer( pierced lungs etc), TPLOs )

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by Featherfinder » Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:20 pm

Well now Bustingcover, I have to disagree with you there. If you're saying you CAN spend the $$$$ but chose not to, you're making a mistake IMO. What I am saying is you should endeavor to get as much value for your investment (not just where dogs are concerned). I've seen more folk burned simply by cheaping-out. Again, some just don't have the disposable income yet still want to have some fun. Why shouldn't they?
I told my wife many years ago, "There's no bargain in buying something you don't want just because it's cheap." I know.......you're going to say, "But I do want it." More-often-than-not, you just haven't found out yet that you don't want it but you will in time. By then, it will likely have cost you! So much for the savings.
It's much worse with a dog especially if you have a young family. When the odds support that this pup wasn't a good acquisition, it isn't quite so easy to take it back or just get another once everyone gets attached. 15+ years is a long time to pay for going the cheap route.

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by Featherfinder » Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:27 pm

I add that I have seen far too many folk spend 2 times the $$$$ for 1/2 the dog! Just because you CAN afford the purchase, it doesn't guarantee a better acquisition. You still need to do your homework.

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by shags » Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:33 pm

It honestly doesn’t cost much to care for a dog.

Until it does. Not every dog runs into problems, but no one should assume it won’t happen.

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by bustingcover » Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:35 pm

Sharon wrote:You must have just been lucky with dogs. An owner can't count on being lucky. I think it costs plenty- good food, tick/flea meds, heartworm meds, emergency appointments etc. etc...

( $1300. attacked by 2 stray dogs in the woods, $2200. attacked by a deer( pierced lungs etc), TPLOs )
It can cost plenty for sure. It also could not. Things happen that are unexpected but the basic quality care of a dog is really not too bad.
Featherfinder wrote:Well now Bustingcover, I have to disagree with you there. If you're saying you CAN spend the $$$$ but chose not to, you're making a mistake IMO. What I am saying is you should endeavor to get as much value for your investment (not just where dogs are concerned). I've seen more folk burned simply by cheaping-out. Again, some just don't have the disposable income yet still want to have some fun. Why shouldn't they?
I told my wife many years ago, "There's no bargain in buying something you don't want just because it's cheap." I know.......you're going to say, "But I do want it." More-often-than-not, you just haven't found out yet that you don't want it but you will in time. By then, it will likely have cost you! So much for the savings.
It's much worse with a dog especially if you have a young family. When the odds support that this pup wasn't a good acquisition, it isn't quite so easy to take it back or just get another once everyone gets attached. 15+ years is a long time to pay for going the cheap route.
We’d have to agree to disagree. In most cases an expensive puppy is just an expensive puppy. There’s no advantage to buying a $$$$ pup over a $$$ Pointer pup out of titled dogs. Most times I’ve seen people getting burned is by not doing their research. Knowing the value of a dollar and what something is worth isn’t what I consider cheating out. IMO a dog with placements or a broke dog ready to campaign is worth that $2500 price tag because of the work put in and it’s a proven commodity. But to pay that much for a pup that could turn out to be a dud is foolish no offense.

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by gonehuntin' » Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:14 pm

Geeze, I've always thought owning a hunting dog was darned expensive and a luxury. A bag of 30-20 per month, $45.00. Trip to the vets ( a min. of two per year required), about 2-300.00. Includes heartworm med's, shot's, Advantix, etc. Birds. Gas to train per day. Hunt club membership. Going hunting weekends. Training equipment Astro, Elec. Collar minimum. $1500.00. Gun. Kennel for truck. Point is, the dog is the cheap part even it you pay $1,500.00 for a pup. The health warranties alone are worth that.

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:15 pm

fishvik wrote:
cjhills wrote:They earn their money by what they produce.No phony rules and somebodies opinion. Just birds in the bag. This is where the rubber meets the road and I love it............Cj
I totally agree CJ. I have almost always had crossbreeds and it is amazing how many friends I have during bird season. :D
I would hate to admit that I have friends based on what kind of hunting dog I have.

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:28 pm

I am totally amazed and terribly disappointed at how many people on here that do not understand what a purebred animal is and the importance of maintaining each breed compared to just a mutt. It concerns me about the validity of pedigrees and even the pureness of the breeds that were developed many years ago and came down through generations of breedings..

Ezzy

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by RayGubernat » Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:38 pm

bustingcover wrote: We’d have to agree to disagree. In most cases an expensive puppy is just an expensive puppy. IMO a dog with placements or a broke dog ready to campaign is worth that $2500 price tag because of the work put in and it’s a proven commodity. But to pay that much for a pup that could turn out to be a dud is foolish no offense.
Not all breeds are priced the same. Pointers are actually pretty cheap, for what you get. Pretty much always have been, as I recollect. My brother in law had folks lining up for his Brittanys at $1000 a pup, and that was some years back. Now, to be absolutely fair, they were nice gun dogs and they had correct conformation, so folks could show them with some success. They were not championship quality, either field or show but they were good companions that hunted, and as I said...he had a waiting list.

Some of the minority breed pointing dog breeders get big money for pups and as mentioned, high quality lab pups go for some serious money. To some extent, the relative rarity of some breeds does affect the asking price for pups. Supply and demand. If a breeder of DD's can get $1500 per pup for every litter they can register and has a waiting list...Why should they take less? I certainly would not.

If someone is used to paying pointer prices and they go for a different breed...they are usually in for some sticker shock, especially if it is a minority breed. If the pup or dog needs to get shipped by air... that is another big hit all by itself.

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by cjhills » Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:34 pm

ezzy333 wrote:I am totally amazed and terribly disappointed at how many people on here that do not understand what a purebred animal is and the importance of maintaining each breed compared to just a mutt. It concerns me about the validity of pedigrees and even the pureness of the breeds that were developed many years ago and came down through generations of breedings..

Ezzy
Ezzy
I think You really miss the point.
First calling your brittneys purebred is just simply not true A few generations back you have outcrosses in your pedigree. You can not have a pure bred with out crosses in dogs,horses cattle or any other animal.In arabian registry the closest you can get is 15/16 and it will be registered as 7/8. Same with cattle. Same with a thoroughbred out cross it will always be an outcross. It is never a purebred
But even the bigger point is if some body wants to breed "Old Roy to sweet Susie Down the road and do whatever they want with the puppies it is absolutely there business and the only responsibility is to the puppies.
Some of you do not seem to get that there are people who could not care less about a pedigree and even less about whether there are titled dogs in his background. This guy has as much right to the dog of his choice as you or anyone else do to yours. The expense of the dog is also his business. If he gives the dog the shots required by law, Generally Rabies shots, which he can get at A spring clinic for little or free he does not need to have health exams ever. If he has some huge expense it is his choice to pay a big bill or put the dog down.
My dogs when I was a kid never saw a vet or 30/20 dog food they ate table scraps and what they could find If they got ripped up or in a porcupine we sewed them up or pulled the quills. Some survived some didn't we were sad if the didn't but we moved on. their productive life was eight to twelve years most died from some sort of cancer. Now we give them good food,vet care,shots and their productive life is eight to twelve years. Most Die from some sort of cancer. in the long run they are all dogs and their life span is going to be about the same no matter what you do.
Thanks for everybody's comments it has been interesting. But it is time to move on. Enjoy your dog or mutt......Cj
Ps. I am training a Labradoodle right now. Very nice dog. Not worth the price but that is not the dogs fault. Puppy prices as with every thing
else is ruled by supply and demand. pointer puppies are cheap because there is not a lot of demand and the trialers have to breed a lot of litters to get what they want ...................Cj

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by fishvik » Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:51 pm

ezzy333 wrote:I would hate to admit that I have friends based on what kind of hunting dog I have.
It was a joke, Ezzy. What I was saying was when you have fairly good dogs everybody wants to hunt with you, particularly if they don't have a dog. They don't care about papers and lineages.

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:18 pm

CJ you can not make up your own rules of what is purebred and what isn't. What you are saying has no validity what so ever.

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by KCKLH » Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:26 pm

So I think weve officially established that people over pay and are over charged and buying a cheap product is always riskier in terms of quality. Thats pretty much true with any product though.

Whats also true is that my 870 has served pretty much every hunting need Ive ever had at the fraction of the price of my brothers A5 (and will probably be shooting far longer.) I bet a quality breeding of GSP/GWP would do the same and be cheaper than the purebred lab pups all the duck commanders just bought for Christmas. I spend about $1000-1200 a year on hunting. Canoe and kayaks are a couple hundred bucks used every few years. Waders are 200 every three. Every year I buy a new half dozen duck decoys for $50 and a new mud seat, mojo, or confidence decoy on impulse. Plus gas and steelshot. And thats just for duck season. $1500 every five years on a dog plus training expenses can really cut down on your ability to actually go hunting. Add in the fact that its hard enough finding a place that rents to large dogs even less allow you to raise a litter. It is expensive and it is hard. And yet plenty of people manage it. I build a lot of gear and Ive seen guys accomplish a surprising amount trainingwise with a rope, bumper, some wood pallets, and on public land. Have owned some great dogs of all kinds of backgrounds too. The start up cost is just one of those initial barriers many of us would rather do without. It actually causes me physical pain to count out that much money and then hand it over.

This debate seems pretty much split between whether or not you can easily afford a more expensive pup. To those of us that can you can enjoy your purebred dog and the health guarantees and taking them to field trials. To those that cant a quality mutt can hunt with the best of them and if you find one for a good price good on you.

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by cjhills » Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:51 am

ezzy333 wrote:CJ you can not make up your own rules of what is purebred and what isn't. What you are saying has no validity what so ever.
Yes, Ezzy it does you never get a pure bred anything by crossing to different breeds. It is not my rules it is nature's rule.
Call them what you want but they are not purebred.The are crossbred papered dogs. It is a good thing you can trace parents and likely get what you expect in their offspring. but the fact remains the same. They are crossbred animals with papers.
Purebred is a name to make people think you have something special. You don't. They are just dogs...........Cj

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by shags » Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:49 am

Don’t both major registries for bird dogs recognize dogs as purebred 3-4 generations after an outcross? FDSB used to publish litters registered, and they had a category for crossbreds. AKC occasionally allows a breed outcross for gene pool issues; Irish Setters were infused with ES blood back in the 50s, and IIRC dalmatians had a genetic problem that an outcross was supposed to help remedy.

So by definition by those registries, unless someone’s doing some cheating, our breeds are purebred. It seems disingenuous to claim they are crossbred because of breedings done decades or more ago. I hope it isn’t a ploy to give breeders permission to be dishonest with their bloodlines “They’re all crossbreds anyhow”.

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by SCT » Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:50 am

Most dog breeds have been established over 100 years ago. Breed two dogs of the same breed and you have purebred puppies. Breed two dogs from the same line inside the same breed you have purebreds. Breed two dogs of two different breeds and you have mutts, or as some would call them, specialty breeds haha.

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:28 am

cjhills wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:CJ you can not make up your own rules of what is purebred and what isn't. What you are saying has no validity what so ever.
Yes, Ezzy it does you never get a pure bred anything by crossing to different breeds. It is not my rules it is nature's rule.
Call them what you want but they are not purebred.The are crossbred papered dogs. It is a good thing you can trace parents and likely get what you expect in their offspring. but the fact remains the same. They are crossbred animals with papers.
Purebred is a name to make people think you have something special. You don't. They are just dogs...........Cj
Lets get the terminology straight. Outcrossing is not cross breeding. When breeding you can inbreed, line breed, or out cross. If you want to cross different breeds then it is cross breeding. Crossbreds are not purebred and do not have papers unless someone decides to cheat and claims they are purebred and falsifies the papers. That has happened as we all know but hopefully not often and ability to run DNA shows that to be true and hopefully it will reduce it even further in the future. Outcrossing is breeding to an individual within the breed that has unrelated ancestors to what you are breeding to.

Ezzy

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by cjhills » Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:49 am

It makes no difference what AKC says or allows you to call the breeds.They are not purebreds in the sense of the word. Gsps have only been in this country for less than 75 years. Some of us have been here longer. They were heavily outcrossed to many different breeds in attempts to improve them. It worked. Most of the original breeding was done right here in Minnesota. I remember the original dogs . They were evil spirited black hearted killers. I watched has a little boy while my brothers and our neighbors shot a whole pack of sheep killing neighborhood dogs about half were Gsps some imported at great expense. They went from house to house and if the dog had wool in it's teeth it died rigth there. Pretty memorable for a six year old. The dogs of today are not remotely related to those dogs. I thank god and outcrossing for that.
If you breed two good bird dogs from GSP and GWP you likely will get good bird dogs. They probably have the same ancestors. It is nearly impossible to breed the bird out of well bred dogs.
I think EPs probably have had less outcrossing. Being a much older breed and I do not know their history.
Very few breeds are pure.
Running Quarter Horses are Nearly full blooded Short track thorougbreds but they are not thoroughbreds and never will be. Same with dogs and for sure three generations is not purebred by any stretch of the imagination
I realize we live in a new era where lying and misleading is the new normal. But, You cannot lie to Mother Nature. In spite of what AKC rules allow and breeders call the crossbred dogs they are not purebred and never will. This Does not distract from the dogs in any way. It improves them. If you believe what you are saying a F4 Labradoodle is a purebred.............Cj

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by gonehuntin' » Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:20 am

The retriever breeds can easily be traced back probably 15-20 generations, maybe more. That's a pure bred dog in my and anyone else's book.

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:43 am

gonehuntin' wrote:The retriever breeds can easily be traced back probably 15-20 generations, maybe more. That's a pure bred dog in my and anyone else's book.
And the same is true of many dogs in every breed. But if you have a misaligned idea of what the definition of purebred and what it entails then the outcome is going to be misaligned also. And nothing any of us say will make a difference since the foundation has crumbled there is no understanding of what our purebred animals really are or how they became purebreds. I have a few years on CJ I believe and there were GSP's, Britts, Vizsla's around that were much the same as they are today though there have been changes that I see as mostly improvements made in within each of the breeds. And with out a doubt there have been some cross breeding by a few that think winning is more important than integrity that have left a visible mark on decendents of those dogs and some not so visible. And some that were caught cheating were rightfully punished.

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by cjhills » Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:16 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:The retriever breeds can easily be traced back probably 15-20 generations, maybe more. That's a pure bred dog in my and anyone else's book.
This is very likely true. I do not know much about retriever history. I am quite sure Greyhounds are pure bred but I am guessing.
Ezzy has a few years on me, three I think. I do not see that as a large difference. I lived the history of Gsps and weims. Show breeding has hurt the weims. But GSPs were vastly improved by cross breeding. To say the were imported GSPs in the forties and fifties are much the same as today is not even remotely close to the truth. Pit bulls are closer.
If you new the truth as some of us do you would know that there are darn few(maybe none) gsps that could trace there pedigree back even ten generations with out some outside blood and there are no field champion dogs that could.
But I do give up. Ezzy is right. He could trace their pedigree 100s of years no crossbreeding. Makes you wonder where the 25" tall ones that will run with a Setter came from..........Cj

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by FurIsFun » Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:48 pm

It amazes me how those that are concerned with "pure x pure" always use the silly generalization that two dogs of different breeds will produce culls as if two dogs of the same breed is a guarantee of aces. The variety within the SAME breeds today is so great that depending on what the owner wants to use the offspring on you may get an ace or a cull from the same litter. Shooting dog x All age dog =??? But, but, but they have the same club/breed name on the papers... How many FC x FC breeding's have led to all FC offspring? Guess what, there have been plenty of dogs from breeding's like that who have ended up in the dead pile!
Forget the paperwork, focus on the performance. Breed two dogs that perform like you want and the odds are in your favor that the pups will suit you. Most puppy buyers cant read a pedigree and have no first hand knowledge of the dogs in it...so advising them to buy papered pups is no more a guarantee they will end up with what they want than a mutt. Those who play the competition game will seek out, and pay the price for the type of pups that will help them win. The rest of the folks don't even need/want those kind of pups!
The novelty breeds cost more and it has nothing to do with paperwork. I often say "the more useless a dog is as an adult will determine how much more expensive it is as a pup" and "people want a good story more than a good dog"
Most people don't hunt hard enough to ever get the most out of ANY dog, let alone a true high performance specialist. People need a dog they can just get along with most the time, rather than the next great trial dog, and if that is crossbred pups off Ol Roy and Miss Daisy, then so be it. They wont ever be at the paper parties sharing back slaps and self congratulations anyways, so you purists wont ever have to make room at the table or tire yourselves with another "we are so much smarter than you" speech to these poor misguided souls...

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by RayGubernat » Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:06 pm

My uncle was the custodian of a German Shorthaired pointer that came straight from German stock...sire and dam were imports. His owner was sent to Saudi Arabia to help build oil refineries in the sixties. Butch was one He!! of a bird dog, was a housedog in a home with 3 small children and he had a few ribbons too, both show and field. He was big and blocky and when he went though cover...he left a path. He hunted fairly close and most of the time his nose was fairly close to the ground, but he sure could find pheasants when the other dogs could not. When his owner came back, several years later...Butch went back to his home and lived out his life as a couch potato who got taken hunting occasionally.

Just because some folks crossbred and then fraudulently registered the results of those crossbreedings...does not make it right and more to the point...does not mean that everyone did. Not everyone who owned GSP's back fifty years ago was a cheat.

I am sure that there have been numerous cross breedings in the GSP world...most of them with the intent of getting dogs that could run with pointers. That does not make it right. That does not make it acceptable.

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