Breeding question need help

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by RayGubernat » Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:13 pm

To those who would engage in crossbreeding, just to save a few bucks, I pose the following question for your consideration:

If EVERYONE else also crossbred their dogs, just how long do you think it would take for the sporting dog breeds that we know today to disappear? I suspect if there were no registries, no competitions and no financial incentive to maintain breed purity, the breeds we know of today would be gone in 20 years... perhaps less.

RayG

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by polmaise » Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:21 pm

I'm just guessing here , but I reckon the breeds we have today were a result of cross breeding and line breeding ? :lol:

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by gonehuntin' » Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:08 pm

FurIsFun wrote:It amazes me how those that are concerned with "pure x pure" always use the silly generalization that two dogs of different breeds will produce culls as if two dogs of the same breed is a guarantee of aces. The variety within the SAME breeds today is so great that depending on what the owner wants to use the offspring on you may get an ace or a cull from the same litter. Shooting dog x All age dog =??? But, but, but they have the same club/breed name on the papers... How many FC x FC breeding's have led to all FC offspring? Guess what, there have been plenty of dogs from breeding's like that who have ended up in the dead pile!
Forget the paperwork, focus on the performance. Breed two dogs that perform like you want and the odds are in your favor that the pups will suit you. Most puppy buyers cant read a pedigree and have no first hand knowledge of the dogs in it...so advising them to buy papered pups is no more a guarantee they will end up with what they want than a mutt. Those who play the competition game will seek out, and pay the price for the type of pups that will help them win. The rest of the folks don't even need/want those kind of pups!
The novelty breeds cost more and it has nothing to do with paperwork. I often say "the more useless a dog is as an adult will determine how much more expensive it is as a pup" and "people want a good story more than a good dog"
Most people don't hunt hard enough to ever get the most out of ANY dog, let alone a true high performance specialist. People need a dog they can just get along with most the time, rather than the next great trial dog, and if that is crossbred pups off Ol Roy and Miss Daisy, then so be it. They wont ever be at the paper parties sharing back slaps and self congratulations anyways, so you purists wont ever have to make room at the table or tire yourselves with another "we are so much smarter than you" speech to these poor misguided souls...
Got to e one of the worst, most uniformed posts they've had on here. There are so many mis-statements and mistakes on it I'm not going to bother to break them down. This post does a huge disservice to any new person looking for a good dog.

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by polmaise » Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:25 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:
Got to e one of the worst, most uniformed posts they've had on here. There are so many mis-statements and mistakes on it I'm not going to bother to break them down. This post does a huge disservice to any new person looking for a good dog.
Easy Tiger !
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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by bustingcover » Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:37 pm

RayGubernat wrote:To those who would engage in crossbreeding, just to save a few bucks, I pose the following question for your consideration:

If EVERYONE else also crossbred their dogs, just how long do you think it would take for the sporting dog breeds that we know today to disappear? I suspect if there were no registries, no competitions and no financial incentive to maintain breed purity, the breeds we know of today would be gone in 20 years... perhaps less.

RayG
I hear what you’re saying Ray but mutts are born everyday and the sky isn’t falling. As long as people are responsible and aren’t filling shelters then feel free todo what you want.

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by cjhills » Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:49 pm

RayGubernat wrote:My uncle was the custodian of a German Shorthaired pointer that came straight from German stock...sire and dam were imports. His owner was sent to Saudi Arabia to help build oil refineries in the sixties. Butch was one He!! of a bird dog, was a housedog in a home with 3 small children and he had a few ribbons too, both show and field. He was big and blocky and when he went though cover...he left a path. He hunted fairly close and most of the time his nose was fairly close to the ground, but he sure could find pheasants when the other dogs could not. When his owner came back, several years later...Butch went back to his home and lived out his life as a couch potato who got taken hunting occasionally.

Just because some folks crossbred and then fraudulently registered the results of those crossbreedings...does not make it right and more to the point...does not mean that everyone did. Not everyone who owned GSP's back fifty years ago was a cheat.

I am sure that there have been numerous cross breedings in the GSP world...most of them with the intent of getting dogs that could run with pointers. That does not make it right. That does not make it acceptable.
I guess you never had a Miller pointer in any of your pedigrees. Because they were bred by the ultimate cheater according to your post. If you did you are making cheating acceptable. Yes, everybody who bred GSPs in the fifties cheated by your standards and most people who bred pointers did also. You call them cheaters. I call them good breeders who greatly improved both breeds. I thank them for having the foresight and guts to do it....Cj

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by FurIsFun » Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:16 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:
FurIsFun wrote:It amazes me how those that are concerned with "pure x pure" always use the silly generalization that two dogs of different breeds will produce culls as if two dogs of the same breed is a guarantee of aces. The variety within the SAME breeds today is so great that depending on what the owner wants to use the offspring on you may get an ace or a cull from the same litter. Shooting dog x All age dog =??? But, but, but they have the same club/breed name on the papers... How many FC x FC breeding's have led to all FC offspring? Guess what, there have been plenty of dogs from breeding's like that who have ended up in the dead pile!
Forget the paperwork, focus on the performance. Breed two dogs that perform like you want and the odds are in your favor that the pups will suit you. Most puppy buyers cant read a pedigree and have no first hand knowledge of the dogs in it...so advising them to buy papered pups is no more a guarantee they will end up with what they want than a mutt. Those who play the competition game will seek out, and pay the price for the type of pups that will help them win. The rest of the folks don't even need/want those kind of pups!
The novelty breeds cost more and it has nothing to do with paperwork. I often say "the more useless a dog is as an adult will determine how much more expensive it is as a pup" and "people want a good story more than a good dog"
Most people don't hunt hard enough to ever get the most out of ANY dog, let alone a true high performance specialist. People need a dog they can just get along with most the time, rather than the next great trial dog, and if that is crossbred pups off Ol Roy and Miss Daisy, then so be it. They wont ever be at the paper parties sharing back slaps and self congratulations anyways, so you purists wont ever have to make room at the table or tire yourselves with another "we are so much smarter than you" speech to these poor misguided souls...
Got to e one of the worst, most uniformed posts they've had on here. There are so many mis-statements and mistakes on it I'm not going to bother to break them down. This post does a huge disservice to any new person looking for a good dog.

Please educate me...

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by RayGubernat » Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:18 pm

bustingcover wrote:
RayGubernat wrote:To those who would engage in crossbreeding, just to save a few bucks, I pose the following question for your consideration:

If EVERYONE else also crossbred their dogs, just how long do you think it would take for the sporting dog breeds that we know today to disappear? I suspect if there were no registries, no competitions and no financial incentive to maintain breed purity, the breeds we know of today would be gone in 20 years... perhaps less.

RayG

I hear what you’re saying Ray but mutts are born everyday and the sky isn’t falling. As long as people are responsible and aren’t filling shelters then feel free todo what you want.
Bustingcover -

The number of upland birds in many areas of the US is WAAAAAY down. In some areas there are no wild birds to speak of. Consequently, the number of upland hunters is similarly depressed. The state of Delaware and the entire Delmarva used to be filthy with quail. Today they simply do not exist, except in a few pockets in the Southern MD portion of the Delmarva and on a few private places in southern DE. There may be some in the VA segment of the peninsula, but I have not heard of any.

The few upland hunters in DE chase rabbits or squirrels.

Southern NJ used to have a healthy population of quail. Today they are virtually extirpated. There used to be grouse throughout the state. Today...virtually gone except in the northwest corner...and they ain't doin' goo there either. North of the Raritan river there used to be plenty of wild pheasant. Today....nothing.

If the state did not stock birds, there would be little reason for upland folks to go afield. Same with PA. So far the PA grouse populations are healthy, but ... for how long?

Without birds and hunters, who is going to be needing bird dogs, purebred or not?

Ask the Field Dog Stud Book how their registrations have been over the last twenty years. The answer is consistently...down.

As far as field trial competitions and such are concerned, you have to look a long time to find someone at an American Field trial that does not have gray hair. The average age of non professional competitors is probably well over 60. These are the folks who breed the top performing pointers, setters and GSP's. The one bright spot might be Brittanys. There seems to be a fair number of younger folks who are active in tests and trials with Brits, but a lot of the folks I know who are serious Brittany breedes and competitors are also senior citizens.

The sky might not be falling...but it is starting to get dark.

RayG

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by polmaise » Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:48 pm

Rayg ' we on this dark side of the pond may have an advantage ?
Whilst the grey bearded forefathers hunted and shot the wild birds for their dogs , we stupidly replenished the stock and conserved the areas so that we can do the same . The commercial pen bred shoot's also helped when they missed thousands over their heads in pursuit of that elusive shot of driven .
Next year it was wild as heck . lol ..
Some just want it to be like it was . Rather than work with what they got .
I here Delaware is a wash with Snow geese ?

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by slistoe » Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:59 pm

polmaise wrote: I here Delaware is a wash with Snow geese ?
Most of North America is awash with snow geese. Next best thing to vermin on the Sporting Regs up here. Daily bag limit of 50 geese and no possession limit. Add to that a 3 month spring season in addition to the fall one - basically they are saying that whenever Snow Geese are around these parts shoot as many as you can.

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by shags » Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:05 pm

Do you mean Canada geese?

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by polmaise » Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:11 pm

I'm sure Canada are not Snow geese.

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by cjhills » Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:29 pm

We are experiencing growing numbers and more young people in our hunting tests and membership. I am pretty sure the same is happening with the Brittney clubs the in Minnesota. Field trialing does quite well I think, numbers are down some mostly due to the expense and time involve, we can find pretty good upland hunting. pheasants are down quite a bit partly due to loss of CRP and severe drought this year in the Dakotas. You can still shoot some birds and get some dog work in.
It is easy to sell a well bred litter of GSP family hunting dogs.
I don't think the sky is falling and every time it has got dark in my life the sun has came up the next day and we saw light again.............CJ

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by shags » Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:37 pm

polmaise wrote:I'm sure Canada are not Snow geese.
Yeah I know. But Canada geese are plentiful here , and snow geese are rare. Where I live, of course.

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by polmaise » Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:45 pm

cjhills wrote:We are experiencing growing numbers and more young people in our hunting tests and membership. I am pretty sure the same is happening with the Brittney clubs the in Minnesota. Field trialing does quite well I think, numbers are down some mostly due to the expense and time involve, we can find pretty good upland hunting. pheasants are down quite a bit partly due to loss of CRP and severe drought this year in the Dakotas. You can still shoot some birds and get some dog work in.
It is easy to sell a well bred litter of GSP family hunting dogs.
I don't think the sky is falling and every time it has got dark in my life the sun has came up the next day and we saw light again.............CJ
One thing is for sure ! ..Breeding keeps the numbers up . ..............

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by gonehuntin' » Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:57 pm

shags wrote:
polmaise wrote:I'm sure Canada are not Snow geese.
Yeah I know. But Canada geese are plentiful here , and snow geese are rare. Where I live, of course.
Go out around Webster, SD about Nov. 10th Shag's and you'll see snow geese like you've never seen before. I've been hunting pheasant in fields out there with so many geese next to me the dog's couldn't hear whistles. What a sight. They are without question my favorite bird and the hardest to hunt. No limit in the spring, electronic calls allowed, no possession limit. They are shot from the arctic circle to Texas and all the way back again. Talk about a wary bird! Wary and very, very, frustrating. Lot of work too.

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by slistoe » Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:15 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:
shags wrote:
polmaise wrote:I'm sure Canada are not Snow geese.
Yeah I know. But Canada geese are plentiful here , and snow geese are rare. Where I live, of course.
Go out around Webster, SD about Nov. 10th Shag's and you'll see snow geese like you've never seen before. I've been hunting pheasant in fields out there with so many geese next to me the dog's couldn't hear whistles. What a sight. They are without question my favorite bird and the hardest to hunt. No limit in the spring, electronic calls allowed, no possession limit. They are shot from the arctic circle to Texas and all the way back again. Talk about a wary bird! Wary and very, very, frustrating. Lot of work too.
I remember one time years ago when the populations were not where they are now and watching a field of snows in the fall migration. I watched for 45 min and a conservative estimate would be that 10,000 geese landed in that field while I was watching. When I drove away there was no guage that I could think of that I could actually say there were more geese in the field when I left than when I came. When a piece of ground 200+ acres is completely white with geese - that's a lot of geese.
We don't see anywhere near that many birds flying now, even though the goose numbers are much higher because the migration pattern has moved a couple hundred miles east of us. But the fall flights are still impressive. I can only imagine what it must be like as they become more and more concentrated at the southern ends of the migration routes.

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by shags » Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:28 pm

Thanks GH and Slistoe, for clearing that up. I’ve seen exactly one snow goose around here, in all my life, but those Canada geese are everywhere, so I wondered.
The one I saw was a big magnificent bird and I felt lucky to spot him, but I can imagine your perception of them is different with those numbers.
We had a wild pheasant in the field behind us this past summer, so that’s two rare ones checked off my birders list 8)

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by polmaise » Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:05 pm

TxBarley99 wrote:Do you mess up a bloodline and pedigree to breed a GSP to GWP. A guy is asking me about my pup that I have who he wamts to breed with but his female is a GWP and I have concerns.

Sent from my LG-H871 using Tapatalk
The answer would be You end the traceable pedigree registered line .
The concerns you may have are probably centred around this rather than what is produced .?

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by slistoe » Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:31 pm

shags wrote:Thanks GH and Slistoe, for clearing that up. I’ve seen exactly one snow goose around here, in all my life, but those Canada geese are everywhere, so I wondered.
The one I saw was a big magnificent bird and I felt lucky to spot him, but I can imagine your perception of them is different with those numbers.
We had a wild pheasant in the field behind us this past summer, so that’s two rare ones checked off my birders list 8)
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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by RayGubernat » Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:27 pm

polmaise wrote:Rayg ' we on this dark side of the pond may have an advantage ?
Whilst the grey bearded forefathers hunted and shot the wild birds for their dogs , we stupidly replenished the stock and conserved the areas so that we can do the same . The commercial pen bred shoot's also helped when they missed thousands over their heads in pursuit of that elusive shot of driven .
Next year it was wild as heck . lol ..
Some just want it to be like it was . Rather than work with what they got .
I here Delaware is a wash with Snow geese ?
I wish that would work here. I wouldn't mind chasing half wild ditch parrots or a wild hatch from last year's escapees. That would be fun. Unfortunately, they don't seem to do well in the sandy soil that we have here. I think it has to do with the soil pH.

And yes Delaware has an abundance of snow geese, with open limits and unplugged magazines allowed. You can apparently fill up the bed of a pickup truck with them, if you so desire...but they are pretty much inedible, or so I'm told. I don't do waterfowl, so I would not know and I try not to kill things I do not eat.

RayG

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by slistoe » Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:40 pm

RayGubernat wrote: You can apparently fill up the bed of a pickup truck with them, if you so desire...but they are pretty much inedible, or so I'm told.

RayG
Last time we went hunting for them we had a good day and when all was said and done we had 70 lbs of goose breasts in a couple of 5 gal. pails. They make pretty good sausage. Goose pepperoni is a staple with the hunting lodge in these parts.

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by cjhills » Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:47 pm

polmaise wrote:
cjhills wrote:We are experiencing growing numbers and more young people in our hunting tests and membership. I am pretty sure the same is happening with the Brittney clubs the in Minnesota. Field trialing does quite well I think, numbers are down some mostly due to the expense and time involve, we can find pretty good upland hunting. pheasants are down quite a bit partly due to loss of CRP and severe drought this year in the Dakotas. You can still shoot some birds and get some dog work in.
It is easy to sell a well bred litter of GSP family hunting dogs.
I don't think the sky is falling and every time it has got dark in my life the sun has came up the next day and we saw light again.............CJ
One thing is for sure ! ..Breeding keeps the numbers up . ..............
That is true in everything.
The fall snow goose migration is one of the most amazing sights in nature you will ever see. At the Sand Lake Refuge in North East S.D. there are millions of
snow geese. They fly out to feed in the corn fields every morning. The noise is deafening. Strange thing is they all go to the same field. Thousands on one field and none on the field across the road...............CJ

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by shags » Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:53 am

Yowza! I would like to see and hear that just because. Just once.

Here, Canadas are considered to be vectors for avian flu, are these?

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by gonehuntin' » Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:47 am

That's an old wives tale that Snows aren't good eating. We put a little rub on the breast and grill them rare. They equal a Mallard in taste. Now Canada's; to me they're strictly a sausage or jerky bird. I don't even shoot them.

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by slistoe » Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:46 am

gonehuntin' wrote:That's an old wives tale that Snows aren't good eating. We put a little rub on the breast and grill them rare. They equal a Mallard in taste. Now Canada's; to me they're strictly a sausage or jerky bird. I don't even shoot them.
That's pretty much the opposite of the general opinion around here.

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by slistoe » Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:49 am

shags wrote: Here, Canadas are considered to be vectors for avian flu, are these?
Avian Cholera - is it the same thing?

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by mask » Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:35 am

How they taste depends on weather they are resident birds or migrating in to your area especially out of grain fields. How birds taste is not what the op ask though. :D

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by shags » Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:44 am

slistoe wrote:
shags wrote: Here, Canadas are considered to be vectors for avian flu, are these?
Avian Cholera - is it the same thing?
No, cholera is bacterial while influenza is viral
Lots of chicken farms around here, so the flu was a big issue. DNR had to think about letting clubs release birds for trials.

I’m putting those snow geese flocks on my bucket list.

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by slistoe » Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:04 am

shags wrote: Lots of chicken farms around here, so the flu was a big issue. DNR had to think about letting clubs release birds for trials.
The Hutterite colony is putting in a new chicken plant - 17,000 free range birds. But they have indoor housing to keep them all inside during the fall goose migration because of the disease risk from the migrating geese.

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by gonehuntin' » Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:14 pm

shags wrote:
slistoe wrote:
shags wrote: Here, Canadas are considered to be vectors for avian flu, are these?
Avian Cholera - is it the same thing?
No, cholera is bacterial while influenza is viral
Lots of chicken farms around here, so the flu was a big issue. DNR had to think about letting clubs release birds for trials.

I’m putting those snow geese flocks on my bucket list.
[img]<a%20href="https://imgur.com/jOwzt1z"><img%20src=" ... m"%20/></a>[/img]

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by shags » Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:15 pm

Down the road are two barns with 100,000 hens. Lots of Amish in the area have smaller set ups. Couple years ago when the flu was bad, many guys had to wipe out their whole operations. The county fairs prohibited poultry exhibits, and our DNR comsidered not allowing release of birds for trial on state grounds.

Serious stuff.

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by gonehuntin' » Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:40 pm

shags wrote:Down the road are two barns with 100,000 hens. Lots of Amish in the area have smaller set ups. Couple years ago when the flu was bad, many guys had to wipe out their whole operations. The county fairs prohibited poultry exhibits, and our DNR comsidered not allowing release of birds for trial on state grounds.

Serious stuff.
Nothing like em' Shag's.

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by Sharon » Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:59 pm

Wow! Never seen anything like that here.

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by gonehuntin' » Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:31 pm

Sharon wrote:Wow! Never seen anything like that here.
More Snow Goose Porn Sharon.

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by Featherfinder » Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:43 pm

Wouldn't waste a shell on Snow Geese. We call Canada Geese "sky carp" around here.

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by gonehuntin' » Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:56 pm

Featherfinder wrote:Wouldn't waste a shell on Snow Geese. We call Canada Geese "sky carp" around here.
Someone's gotta teach you boy's how to cook em' ! Cook em' same as a mallard and they'll taste like a mallard.

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by shags » Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:16 pm

Thanks for the photos, GH. Someday some old feller is going to try to describe those scenes to his grandkids, and the kids will be all “Yeah, right, Grampa”

You’re fortunate to have witnessed those birds.

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by gonehuntin' » Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:45 pm

shags wrote:Thanks for the photos, GH. Someday some old feller is going to try to describe those scenes to his grandkids, and the kids will be all “Yeah, right, Grampa”

You’re fortunate to have witnessed those birds.
I am Shag's and well I know it. I think their time left is probably pretty short.

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by Featherfinder » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:08 pm

I appreciate what your saying Gonehuntin but a big part of what you eat is what they eat. Around here, they're called sky card for a reason. Now, if you get the chance to hunt them on the prairies or the central mid-west for example when they've been feeding on grain....that's another thing all together.
I gave up shooting at sharptails because I tried a multitude of ways to cook them. My efforts produced table fare that was a choice between bad and worse! Then, someone taught me how to cook them. OMG....they are amazing....and so simple to prepare!

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:11 am

I am convinced there is no bad meat if you know how to prepare it but if you don't some can be wicked.

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by gonehuntin' » Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:05 am

Featherfinder wrote:I appreciate what your saying Gonehuntin but a big part of what you eat is what they eat. Around here, they're called sky card for a reason. Now, if you get the chance to hunt them on the prairies or the central mid-west for example when they've been feeding on grain....that's another thing all together.
I gave up shooting at sharptails because I tried a multitude of ways to cook them. My efforts produced table fare that was a choice between bad and worse! Then, someone taught me how to cook them. OMG....they are amazing....and so simple to prepare!
It's true I hunt nowhere but where they're in grain, either here in the U.S. Or Canada. Canada's are in the same fields but I don't like eating the Canada's. My definition of a good eating bird is one you can simply throw on the grill and eat without any sauces or doctoring. I always cook them rare; that's the key with nearly all wild game.

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by Featherfinder » Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:13 am

Couldn't agree with you more Gonehuntin! Over-cooking game meats can really make them less palatable - in some cases downright in-edible.
Re the sharptail, I had the same issue with woodcock many years prior - too livery (OK if you like liver). Now....OMG.....delicious!

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Breeding question need help

Post by TxBarley99 » Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:26 am

I appreciate all the conversations I have been reading over all the post. Just wanted to clarify that I was not thinking of it anytime soon. I had a guy come up where I work and saw my puppy and was obsessed with his color and said he had a female he would love to breed him with when he was older but she was a GWP. I am new to pointers and even newer to someone wanting to breed a dog of mine. I was more curious on the problems this may cause from mine in that if I do decided to breed him does it mess the value of my dog up if he has breed with another dog that is not his breed. Thank you again for all the responses.

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by cjhills » Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:01 pm

It Wouldn't. Of course the Guy does not have a clue if he is picking a 11 week old future stud dog because he is obsessed with the color. Forget him for sure........Cj

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by deseeker » Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:06 am

Down the road, if you decide you want to do this breeding--tell the female owner to get a burcellois (sp) test, it is rare in dogs(more common to cattle and Bison) but it does happen. If his dog does have it and gives it to your dog, yours will be useless for breeding in the future. That might be a downside to this breeding, because I have a feeling that the female owner doesn't want to invest any money in this breeding by doing any health tests. I'm also betting he wants to give you a pup instead of a stud fee.
This is JMO :roll:

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by crackerd » Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:36 am

RayGubernat wrote:And yes Delaware has an abundance of snow geese, with open limits and unplugged magazines allowed. You can apparently fill up the bed of a pickup truck with them, if you so desire...but they are pretty much inedible, or so I'm told. I don't do waterfowl, so I would not know and I try not to kill things I do not eat.
Ray, believe a third of what you read, half of what you see, and next to nothing of what you hear when your own taste buds can tell you differently, especially until after you've dined on what others call "inedible." Feather's got it right below when it comes to snows - of which the little dog in my avatar retrieved >3,000< in her 16 years' of gundog work, almost all of 'em shot over fields of beans or corn where they had been feeding. (That's how Robt. "found out" we've got so many hereabouts - and I'm smack in the middle of 'em. If photobucket hadn't screwed the pooch with posting photos, I could flip you the shot from my cell of the 15,000 or so snows in my backyard last week.)
Featherfinder wrote:I appreciate what your saying Gonehuntin but a big part of what you eat is what they eat. Around here, they're called sky carp for a reason. Now, if you get the chance to hunt them on the prairies or the central mid-west for example when they've been feeding on grain....that's another thing all together.
MG

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by cjhills » Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:13 am

deseeker wrote:Down the road, if you decide you want to do this breeding--tell the female owner to get a burcellois (sp) test, it is rare in dogs(more common to cattle and Bison) but it does happen. If his dog does have it and gives it to your dog, yours will be useless for breeding in the future. That might be a downside to this breeding, because I have a feeling that the female owner doesn't want to invest any money in this breeding by doing any health tests. I'm also betting he wants to give you a pup instead of a stud fee.
This is JMO :roll:
And have the courtesy to do one on your male. Brucellosis Is a Sexually transmitted disease of either sex..............................Cj

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by JONOV » Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:00 pm

One thought on this...a breeder of an "esoteric" gundog breed made the comment to me, "The Outlaws are going to be the ones that save the breeds." By that I think he meant, that with many of these breeds having long closed stud books, especially but not exlcusively with less popular breeds, that it would be them that put the genetic diversity requesite for a sustainable population. I also read an article that supported his point:

http://www.instituteofcaninebiology.org ... d-of-cause

The Dalmation had to do it with the Pointer...they crossed one in to get rid of the deafness and kidney stones.

Didn't American Field used to register droppers?

Anyhow, I think that it actually would be a good idea to allow cross breeds to be registered, even bred into lines, and have their progeny registered as purebred a generation or two later. Venues like NAVHDA or American Field, that don't have conformation events, could do it.
RayGubernat wrote:Too funny -

The previous poster is making the case that over 100 years of selective breeding by dedicated supporters of their respective breeds is not sufficient to produce sporting dogs, in that breed, with uniform and high level talents, abilities and dispositions.

I call BS.
Here's the thing. Breeders breed for one of two reasons; to develop dogs to compete in their arena, or to make money. If you can't find what you're looking for, if none of the arenas do a good job of what you want, then you're kind of at a loss sometimes. How many duck hunters don't care about the dogs performance at field trials, find themselves with a really high octane dog when they really want one that sits nicely in the boat with them while they scratch out their 3 wood ducks once a week during duck season?
RayGubernat wrote: No breeding is 100% guaranteed, but if you have generations of selective breeding for similar traits in both the sire and the dam, your odds of getting pups with high levels of those traits...goes WAAAAY up.

I'd be willing to bet that if a son of Michael Jordan married a daughter of Kareem Abdul Jabbar, ANY children of that union would very likely be pretty tall and also pretty decent basketball players.

To anyone who wants to breed their dogs, I offer this old saw:

If Marilyn Monroe had a child by Albert Einstein, there are two possible outcomes. First, the child could have Marylyn's looks and Albert's brains. Alternatively the child could JUST AS LIKELY have Albert's looks and Marilyn's brains. No way to tell.

THAT is what you are faced with when you breed unknown to unknown. No way to tell what you will end up with.

RayG
Ray, I don't think that its an unknown to an unknown. We forget that dog "breeds" are a human invention; they're the same species. The difference between a GWP and a GSP? Not that much. A setter-pointer is no less likely to run and point and a lab-chessie is going to swim and retrieve. This isn't exactly a Pitbull-Pekignese we're looking at.

I agree, its a little on the irresponsible side since you don't really know how you'll place the puppies. But, plenty of folks looking for a pet would probably satisfied.
gonehuntin' wrote:Geeze, I've always thought owning a hunting dog was darned expensive and a luxury. A bag of 30-20 per month, $45.00. Trip to the vets ( a min. of two per year required), about 2-300.00. Includes heartworm med's, shot's, Advantix, etc. Birds. Gas to train per day. Hunt club membership. Going hunting weekends. Training equipment Astro, Elec. Collar minimum. $1500.00. Gun. Kennel for truck. Point is, the dog is the cheap part even it you pay $1,500.00 for a pup. The health warranties alone are worth that.
I agree that the purchase price is the tip of the iceberg, but that doesn't mean that it isn't worth looking at. The "you get what you pay for" or "the purchase price is the cheapest part," in the absence of other factors that justify the price, is a sign that you're being hosed. Health guarantees are great, but when the rubber meets the road, half the time they aren't worth the paper they're printed on, since its already your pet and you're looking at a "return and replace" clause. Are you going to tell the wife and kids, "Sorry, giving her back, she has xyz condition?" My wife would sooner give me away. Also, some breeds/lines have a much larger incidence of genetic problems. Looking at OFA's website, pointers and GSP's have really low incidences of hip dysplasia. GWP's have a little more. Labs have more yet.
RayGubernat wrote:
bustingcover wrote:
RayGubernat wrote:To those who would engage in crossbreeding, just to save a few bucks, I pose the following question for your consideration:

If EVERYONE else also crossbred their dogs, just how long do you think it would take for the sporting dog breeds that we know today to disappear? I suspect if there were no registries, no competitions and no financial incentive to maintain breed purity, the breeds we know of today would be gone in 20 years... perhaps less.

RayG

I hear what you’re saying Ray but mutts are born everyday and the sky isn’t falling. As long as people are responsible and aren’t filling shelters then feel free todo what you want.
Bustingcover -

The number of upland birds in many areas of the US is WAAAAAY down. In some areas there are no wild birds to speak of. Consequently, the number of upland hunters is similarly depressed. The state of Delaware and the entire Delmarva used to be filthy with quail. Today they simply do not exist, except in a few pockets in the Southern MD portion of the Delmarva and on a few private places in southern DE. There may be some in the VA segment of the peninsula, but I have not heard of any.

The few upland hunters in DE chase rabbits or squirrels.

Southern NJ used to have a healthy population of quail. Today they are virtually extirpated. There used to be grouse throughout the state. Today...virtually gone except in the northwest corner...and they ain't doin' goo there either. North of the Raritan river there used to be plenty of wild pheasant. Today....nothing.

If the state did not stock birds, there would be little reason for upland folks to go afield. Same with PA. So far the PA grouse populations are healthy, but ... for how long?

Without birds and hunters, who is going to be needing bird dogs, purebred or not?

Ask the Field Dog Stud Book how their registrations have been over the last twenty years. The answer is consistently...down.

As far as field trial competitions and such are concerned, you have to look a long time to find someone at an American Field trial that does not have gray hair. The average age of non professional competitors is probably well over 60. These are the folks who breed the top performing pointers, setters and GSP's. The one bright spot might be Brittanys. There seems to be a fair number of younger folks who are active in tests and trials with Brits, but a lot of the folks I know who are serious Brittany breedes and competitors are also senior citizens.

The sky might not be falling...but it is starting to get dark.

RayG
Ray, as someone who did go to a field trial, and hopefully will enter a few more even if I bring the only stubby tailed wirey dog all season, I think it has less to do with bird hunting (how many of these guys bird hunt much anyway, how many of these dogs run 15 trial braces for every time they're actually hunted?) I was the only guy, (maybe a couple more) that had one dog. I'm not timid and not afraid of making a fool of myself, so going in half blind wasn't a concern for me, but for some folks I think its different. Not to mention, you look at half the advertised events and they are three days minimum, so its hard to get an idea what day you need to be there if you aren't bringing a string of dogs to run. Not to mention, horses, I made sure I entered a walking trial...

Lots of people go to AKC tests (not trials) that have never shot a gun before and don't intend to start.

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Re: Breeding question need help

Post by RayGubernat » Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:59 am

Jonov-

Thank you for a thought provoking response post. I enjoy an alternative point of view.

Just a couple of things...

You might be surprised with how often some of those diehard field trailers hit the fields with some of their dogs. Ask them.

I applaud your willingness to put it out there at a trial, despite the probability of being the only stub tail handler there. FWIW, when I see that in a stake I am judging, I am actually pulling for that dog and handler to do a job worthy of a placement. I don't think I am alone in that. At least I hope I am not. It takes some chutzpah to put it out there with a continental in a longtail trial. I LIKE that.

Last thing I will tell you is that it is a well known sentiment in field trials that even the pros watch for that guy who drives up in an old pickup or station wagon with his one and only dog riding shotgun. All too often, that dog and handler share an incredible bond and the dog seems to behave as if it were an extension of the handler's hand. If the dog has the necessary style and class, that can be magical to watch...and awful hard to beat.

Be that handler... and I hope I'm watching.

RayG

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