Dog searching for bumper

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DaxGR0422
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Dog searching for bumper

Post by DaxGR0422 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:10 pm

Hey guys, new to the forum here.

So I'm training my 5 month golden for waterfowl hunting. I'm following the duck dog basics DVD by Chris Akin. I'm just doing very basic work with bumpers right now with him, will hopefully start obedience work in a month or so. One thing is happening during training that is kind of frustrating. Occasionally I'll throw a bumper in some longer grass or other kind of cover. If he doesn't see exactly where it went, he will totally give up on searching for it. He will literally stand off in the distance and stare at me for several minutes and not move! He seems to lack the desire to "search" for what he wants. Is this 100% my fault for throwing it where he can't see exactly where it lands? Or should he ideally have a little more desire to search for the bumper?

Thanks in advance!

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Fozzie's Mom
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Re: Dog searching for bumper

Post by Fozzie's Mom » Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:08 pm

DaxGR0422 wrote:Hey guys, new to the forum here.

So I'm training my 5 month golden for waterfowl hunting. I'm following the duck dog basics DVD by Chris Akin. I'm just doing very basic work with bumpers right now with him, will hopefully start obedience work in a month or so. One thing is happening during training that is kind of frustrating. Occasionally I'll throw a bumper in some longer grass or other kind of cover. If he doesn't see exactly where it went, he will totally give up on searching for it. He will literally stand off in the distance and stare at me for several minutes and not move! He seems to lack the desire to "search" for what he wants. Is this 100% my fault for throwing it where he can't see exactly where it lands? Or should he ideally have a little more desire to search for the bumper?

Thanks in advance!
I'm eager to see what these guys say here, as I'm new and also training a younger golden. I'm curious, though, as to why you haven't started obedience training with him yet? Is there a reason, or have you just not as of yet?

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Re: Dog searching for bumper

Post by Trekmoor » Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:28 pm

Does the pup usually like to retrieve that kind of bumper ? Some pups have preferences and I make use of those preferences in situations where a pup seems to be less keen to retrieve. Very often, with young pups like yours, an old smelly sock stuffed with rags to form a bumper shape is more valued by a pup than is a proper, shop bought bumper.

What is your voice like when encouraging a pup to hunt/retrieve ? Do you make your voice more excitable in order to gee up the pup into trying harder ?

It is possible to scatter food into a small patch of ground and then to train/encourage a pup to search for it if you use a certain tone of voice. Do it when the pup is hungry for best results.

Don't give long throws into rough grass if the pup is likely to badly lose its mark on the bumper....start close then work outwards. At that age I would help a pup if it needed help , I'd even "salt" the chosen fall area of the bumper with a couple of other bumpers to make it far more likely that the pup would find a dummy if it did any hunting at all in the fall area.

Where the obedience training is concerned .....don't be in a big hurry to train steadiness or to train stop to whistle.....don't train a pup to stop until it has taught itself to "go."

Bill T.

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Re: Dog searching for bumper

Post by polmaise » Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:36 pm

DaxGR0422 wrote:Hey guys, new to the forum here.

So I'm training my 5 month golden for waterfowl hunting. I'm following the duck dog basics DVD by Chris Akin. I'm just doing very basic work with bumpers right now with him, will hopefully start obedience work in a month or so. One thing is happening during training that is kind of frustrating. Occasionally I'll throw a bumper in some longer grass or other kind of cover. If he doesn't see exactly where it went, he will totally give up on searching for it. He will literally stand off in the distance and stare at me for several minutes and not move! He seems to lack the desire to "search" for what he wants. Is this 100% my fault for throwing it where he can't see exactly where it lands? Or should he ideally have a little more desire to search for the bumper?

Thanks in advance!
KISS.
Last edited by polmaise on Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

FurIsFun
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Re: Dog searching for bumper

Post by FurIsFun » Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:13 pm

I would say its partly that the pup isn't super high drive and partly doesn't understand the game.
Try throwing it behind cover that once he goes through the strip of cover he can see the bumper again, instead of into a big patch of tall grass. This will help him learn to push further and build his confidence. Testing a pup to see how good it is often leads to disappointment. Try to set him up to win...the real tests will come soon enough on their own.

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Fozzie's Mom
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Re: Dog searching for bumper

Post by Fozzie's Mom » Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:26 pm

polmaise wrote:
DaxGR0422 wrote:Hey guys, new to the forum here.

So I'm training my 5 month golden for waterfowl hunting. I'm following the duck dog basics DVD by Chris Akin. I'm just doing very basic work with bumpers right now with him, will hopefully start obedience work in a month or so. One thing is happening during training that is kind of frustrating. Occasionally I'll throw a bumper in some longer grass or other kind of cover. If he doesn't see exactly where it went, he will totally give up on searching for it. He will literally stand off in the distance and stare at me for several minutes and not move! He seems to lack the desire to "search" for what he wants. Is this 100% my fault for throwing it where he can't see exactly where it lands? Or should he ideally have a little more desire to search for the bumper?

Thanks in advance!
KISS.
Ditch the longer grass/cover.
...
I am not familiar with Chris Akin DVD . But I'm more than certain it would be based on a dog that already has basic Yard drills for any breed in place before the 'Duck part' is included ? ..If it doesn't then go change to a DVD that shows even more basic techniques that fit the stage of You and Your dog .
I hope this helps . Regards
I don't know about anyone else, but I'm finding your posts helpful. You guys have all been wonderful to learn from, as I, myself, am very new to this world! I'm quiet most of the time as I'm too busy just being a sponge! Thank you for your efforts! :)

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isonychia
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Re: Dog searching for bumper

Post by isonychia » Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:42 pm

My britt hates the rubber bumpers but put a canvas with a wing in it and he goes bonkers. We play dead bird with this in the house, he goes in the bathroom while I hide it. His favorite indoor past time. 5 months is about 2 months later than I would start working on obedience training. That starts from day one with not biting, chewing, urinating, etc and hopefully by 5 months we have come, sit, stay, no, and are working on heal. Obedience training doesn't play into drive. You can't force a dog to love something, though force fetching did turn the lights on for my dog (not till 1.5-2 years old for that one).

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Re: Dog searching for bumper

Post by duckn66 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:14 pm

Right now you need to be concentrating on his marking ability. He needs to "see" the fall to the ground. White bumpers. And have a helper throw marks if possible. That will get him in the habit of looking "out" and not at you throwing the bumper.

Build confidence in his marking ability. That's the name of the game right now. And 3 marks are plenty for a session right now.

DaxGR0422
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Re: Dog searching for bumper

Post by DaxGR0422 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:07 pm

isonychia wrote:My britt hates the rubber bumpers but put a canvas with a wing in it and he goes bonkers. We play dead bird with this in the house, he goes in the bathroom while I hide it. His favorite indoor past time. 5 months is about 2 months later than I would start working on obedience training. That starts from day one with not biting, chewing, urinating, etc and hopefully by 5 months we have come, sit, stay, no, and are working on heal. Obedience training doesn't play into drive. You can't force a dog to love something, though force fetching did turn the lights on for my dog (not till 1.5-2 years old for that one).
Thanks for the idea!

I should have made myself more clear. The basic obedience work is almost mastered at this time (here, sit, stay, no, potty training) - he's had that down since 12 weeks or younger actually. I meant more formal obedience (strict heal work, steadying, etc.)

DaxGR0422
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Re: Dog searching for bumper

Post by DaxGR0422 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:08 pm

duckn66 wrote:Right now you need to be concentrating on his marking ability. He needs to "see" the fall to the ground. White bumpers. And have a helper throw marks if possible. That will get him in the habit of looking "out" and not at you throwing the bumper.

Build confidence in his marking ability. That's the name of the game right now. And 3 marks are plenty for a session right now.
I really like this idea of having someone else throw and learn to mark. Thanks for the suggestion.

fishvik
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Re: Dog searching for bumper

Post by fishvik » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:34 am

I would agree with the idea of making sure the dog marks by making sure the dog sees the dummy on the ground at first. I would also add a wing so they get use to relating using the scent to locate. I would suggest using soft dummies, they retain scent better and also resemble the feel of a bird.

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Fozzie's Mom
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Re: Dog searching for bumper

Post by Fozzie's Mom » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:45 am

fishvik wrote:I would agree with the idea of making sure the dog marks by making sure the dog sees the dummy on the ground at first. I would also add a wing so they get use to relating using the scent to locate. I would suggest using soft dummies, they retain scent better and also resemble the feel of a bird.
Would you guys mind clarifying for me?

We're learning to "mark" in formal obedience class in preparation for our Utility class: dog in heel position, I aim him at the glove he is to be directed to retrieve, I say "mark" and point at the glove in question, making sure that he focuses on it, before sending him out for the retrieve.

Is this the type of behavior that you're looking for in field training at this point in time with a young dog? Or is the "mark" at this point just the dog noticing where the dummy is thrown so he can retrieve it? In this early stage, is he to stay in heel until directed to retrieve, or does that come later with the dummies?

Darn! I had just ordered a couple of the plastic dummies. Hadn't thought about the texture/scent being an issue.

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gonehuntin'
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Re: Dog searching for bumper

Post by gonehuntin' » Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:48 am

First, you're doing just fine. A retriever has to use three things for every retrieve: Eyes, Nose, Brain.

I think you have probably caused the problem, just a guess. A young dog has a very short attention span. They demand rapid success. I'm going to guess that when ever he has a problem in cover, you walk out and show him the bumper. That's why he's turning around and looking at you; he is expecting help. Wait him out. Just stand there with duck tape on your mouth and say and do nothing. One of three things will happen. 1) He'll blow out of the area on an uncontrolled hunt. That's OK. 2) He'll come back to you expecting petting and lay down at your feet. That's bad. Don't pet him, put him away for the session. 3) He'll get bored, start looking, and find the bumper. Yeah!!!!!

With a pup I too like to throw chunks of hot dog is heavy grass while I'm walking, unseen by the dog, then call him in and command "dead bird" or some such command to teach him to search on command. They love that game.

The other thing is, he may give up on bumpers but never on clipwings. Try a clipwings.

That's all I got.

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Re: Dog searching for bumper

Post by polmaise » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:31 pm

fishvik wrote: I would suggest using soft dummies, they retain scent better and also resemble the feel of a bird.
? ..Now that's a New one on me ! :|
Where did that come from ?

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Re: Dog searching for bumper

Post by Timewise65 » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:51 pm

I own three field bred Goldens and have been running Goldens in hunt tests for years. I would never start that young of a dog on marking bumpers in any kind of cover. Not until he shows exceptional consistency in running 'marks'. This includes running in straight lines consistency....

If he is doing that well, then I might put some scent on his favorite bumper. Have him sit, and then walk out in front of him I would do this at 25-30yds, and set it in some cover (if he does not have a good 'sit stay' he is not ready for this drill)! Then go back to him and send him to pick up what you dropped for him in cover. . The scent will pull him in if he gets close and reinforce using his nose. Once he has this down pat, then start going longer and adding complexity.... Set up all drills in such a way that you believe he cannot fail. Every time he fails a drill of any kind, you are setting his training back, so be careful.

Dog training will try your patients, but you cannot advance until your dogs proves he is ready to advance. He will do this my being near 100% on the skills you are teaching him....

Go slow, be consistent, and do short periods of training or a young dog will get bored...

Good luck

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Re: Dog searching for bumper

Post by polmaise » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:08 pm

Good Luck !

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Re: Dog searching for bumper

Post by Bedight » Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:01 pm

Training my Setters to retrieve has always been a bit of a struggle. Quail scent on canvas bumpers always worked to jack up their enthusiasm, but go light and move to unscented bumpers as soon as they get the game. Other wise they soon won't look for anything that doesn't have scent.

Some of my Setters were never interested in bumpers but loved retrieving birds. If they are slow to show strong prey drive, or just won't retrieve bumpers, get them chasing live clip wings birds and/or trying to find fresh dead birds.



Good Luck.............

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