NAVHDA dogs compared to NSTRA dogs

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huntindog1
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NAVHDA dogs compared to NSTRA dogs

Post by huntindog1 » Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:03 pm

Anyone dare to compare?

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Re: NAVHDA dogs compared to NSTRA dogs

Post by RayGubernat » Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:24 pm

Successful NAVHDA dogs would probably be expected to be pretty good at water retrieves and pretty persistent in water searches. NSTRA dogs are not typically bred, trained or tested for those particular skills.

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Re: NAVHDA dogs compared to NSTRA dogs

Post by polmaise » Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:13 pm

huntindog1 wrote:Anyone dare to compare?

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Why would You want to ?

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Re: NAVHDA dogs compared to NSTRA dogs

Post by cjhills » Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:00 pm

It would be like comparing oranges and apples. There is not much to compare. The water work in NAVHDA is not about the retrieve it is about the search. If your dog goes out and grabs the duck and brings it back he will have to be sent out again. I do not think they even need a water retrieve. Not sure about that. It is not about the find it is about the search.
NSTRA is all about birds fast point onlying and retrieving upland.....................CJ

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Re: NAVHDA dogs compared to NSTRA dogs

Post by Dakotazeb » Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:21 pm

I agree, you cannot compare the two. They are totally different. A water retrieve is not required in NSTRA. However, if there is water on the field and you drop a bird in the water and get the retrieve you will receive a higher score due to the difficulty of the retrieve. I was at a NSTRA trial in Iowa a few years back. They was a nice pond right in front of the gallery. A guy that was running a Vizsla dropped a bird in the pond. That Vizsla would not set foot in the water. Thus the guy lost the retrieve points. But I will say that most dogs in NSTRA (at least those I've seen) retrieve well out of the water. My Brittany made a nice water retrieve at a National NSTRA trial years ago and those extra points won be the brace in a "beat your bracemate" format.

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Re: NAVHDA dogs compared to NSTRA dogs

Post by JONOV » Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:08 pm

cjhills wrote:It would be like comparing oranges and apples. There is not much to compare. The water work in NAVHDA is not about the retrieve it is about the search. If your dog goes out and grabs the duck and brings it back he will have to be sent out again. I do not think they even need a water retrieve. Not sure about that. It is not about the find it is about the search.
NSTRA is all about birds fast point onlying and retrieving upland.....................CJ
No, in the Natural Ability test (pups under 16 months) they have to swim twice after a dummy, if dead game is used the dog can score no more than a prize III.

In the utility test they have a water retrieve where, after a steady-by-blind sequence, they have to swim through decoys and retrieve a duck to hand...depending if the dog doesn’t retrieve to hand exactly will knock your score but you won’t get a prize I.

The duck search is where the dog will get sent back as you mention, but it’s a different portion of the test. Whether or not the dog finds the duck isn’t important, they want an independent and expanding search.

During the field portion retrieves must be to hand for a prize 1, birds are shot over the dog, the dog must be steady to wing, shot and fall.

I think that aside from water work, a dog that lumbers around at 30 yards and finds birds, points, retrieves well isn’t going to score any worse than one that lights the grass on fire...

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Re: NAVHDA dogs compared to NSTRA dogs

Post by Dakotazeb » Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:11 pm

JONOV wrote: I think that aside from water work, a dog that lumbers around at 30 yards and finds birds, points, retrieves well isn’t going to score any worse than one that lights the grass on fire...
If you are referring to NSTRA you are wrong under almost all circumstances. You don't need to have the fastest dog but you do need a dog that covers some ground. A 30 yard dog in NSTRA would generally not do well because by the time your dog got to where the bird was the other dog would have already found it.

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Re: NAVHDA dogs compared to NSTRA dogs

Post by JONOV » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:51 pm

Dakotazeb wrote:
JONOV wrote: I think that aside from water work, a dog that lumbers around at 30 yards and finds birds, points, retrieves well isn’t going to score any worse than one that lights the grass on fire...
If you are referring to NSTRA you are wrong under almost all circumstances. You don't need to have the fastest dog but you do need a dog that covers some ground. A 30 yard dog in NSTRA would generally not do well because by the time your dog got to where the bird was the other dog would have already found it.
No, I was referring to navhda, the judging is against a standard and speed, range, and style really don’t play into thejudging. So a Griff, compared to a Pointer, or a GSP or Brittany or GWP, isn’t at an inherent advantage or disadvantage as long as it finds and points and is steady, and a dog that finds four isn’t necessarily judged lower than one that finds six. I don’t have a comprehensive understanding of NSTRA but from what I know about it you want a dog that moves fast enough to compete with its brace mate.

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Re: NAVHDA dogs compared to NSTRA dogs

Post by bustingcover » Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:21 am

Comparing the dogs or the organizations? The dogs are all pointing dogs for both organizations but NAVHDA and NSTRA are completely different and each have dogs of different levels of talent and ability.

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Re: NAVHDA dogs compared to NSTRA dogs

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:51 pm

bustingcover wrote:Comparing the dogs or the organizations? The dogs are all pointing dogs for both organizations but NAVHDA and NSTRA are completely different and each have dogs of different levels of talent and ability.
Not necessarily a different level, just different purpose. Much like a horse that pulls more or runs the fastest. Different skills!!!!

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Re: NAVHDA dogs compared to NSTRA dogs

Post by bustingcover » Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:27 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
bustingcover wrote:Comparing the dogs or the organizations? The dogs are all pointing dogs for both organizations but NAVHDA and NSTRA are completely different and each have dogs of different levels of talent and ability.
Not necessarily a different level, just different purpose. Much like a horse that pulls more or runs the fastest. Different skills!!!!
Within each organization there are dogs of different talent and ability levels. As in there are some duds, there are some dogs that need a lot of training to cover holes, average dogs, superstars, etc...

So there’s no such thing as a “navhda dog” or “nstra dog” because anybody with some money can play either game or both. The dog doesn’t have to be necessarily good at it.

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Re: NAVHDA dogs compared to NSTRA dogs

Post by ckirsch » Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:41 pm

A few years back I got a young pointer through the NAVHDA Invitational, and the next spring ran him in a NSTRA trial that was the first one he or I had ever entered. He placed fourth of thirty-two that day, so there are dogs that can succeed in both venues. In general, NAVHDA places more focus on handle and manners, NSTRA probably more on speed and style. A close-working dog would be better suited for NAVHDA work. As has been stated, no water work, blind or double-marked retrieves are required for NSTRA. Steadiness is required in NAVHDA but not NSTRA. Both require a dog to back.

Both organizations are a lot of fun, and I met so many great people participating in their events. (DakotaZeb being one of them.) I expected NSTRA to be a little less friendly than NAVHDA given that you are actually competing with the other handlers and their dogs, but I was made to feel very welcome at every NSTRA trial I attended, and the other handlers were very good about getting me up to speed on handling and strategy. I've learned a lot from the other handlers in both venues, and gained some longtime friends and hunting companions through both the tests and trials.

Having experienced both venues, I would probably lean towards NAVHDA as being a bit better for someone developing a young dog into a hunting companion, and NSTRA a better fit for someone with an experienced dog who wants to stay active outside of hunting seasons. My thought has always been to get a dog through NAVHDA first, and then jump over to NSTRA.

Can't go wrong with either one. Beats the heck out of leaving your dog in the kennel for nine months of the year.

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Re: NAVHDA dogs compared to NSTRA dogs

Post by Dakotazeb » Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:52 pm

Thanks ckirsh. Been a number of years since you were at a NSTRA trial. Would be good to see you again. Just for the record, you said steadiness was not required in NSTRA. That's not totally true. Once the dog goes on point it is required to remain steady (no steps, etc.) until the handler flushes the bird. But the dog is not required to remain steady through wing, shot and fall in NSTRA. A NAVHDA dog with some range can do well in NSTRA.

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Re: NAVHDA dogs compared to NSTRA dogs

Post by ckirsch » Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:03 pm

I understand that NSTRA requires steady to flush, but figured that went without saying. The steadiness required for a UT or VC NAVHDA dog is far more advanced. Same with retrieving. I think I went to four NSTRA trials and can't remember seeing any dogs steady through wing/shot/fall. It's actually somewhat detrimental to them if they are as they burn up a little time by not breaking at the flush. I'm guessing that a lot of NSTRA dogs could handle NAVHDA retrieving levels, but they aren't judged on those types of retrieves in the trials.

On the other hand, I appreciate speed, style, and ground coverage in a bird dog, and the NSTRA trials require more in those areas than do NAVHDA tests. Not to say that NAVHDA dogs never display those traits, it's just that they aren't scored on them.

I'd rate the venues equally challenging, but in different ways. Both can be an awful lot of fun, and you can also find yourself a little dejected driving home from either. I was confident my newest pointer would waltz through a UT test in Fargo last fall; wasn't able to get a correction on him in the final month of training as he never missed a step, but for whatever reason he elected to act like an idiot on test day and we limped home with a Pz 3. The eight-hour drive back to Rapid City was a miserable trip. I also had a NSTRA run where my dog was close to flawless, had four finds and a back, solid scores on everything, but I missed the fourth bird twice on a straightaway shot with skeet chokes and 8 shot. (Right in front of the gallery, of course.) Had we picked up the retrieving points that we missed as a result of my lousy marksmanship we'd have likely placed first or second. That was a long trip home as well. I'd brought one of my daughters along and she seemed to enjoy frequently reminding me of my missed shot as we came back from Montana.

Anyone with an opportunity to get involved in either organization should jump on it. Might want to go and watch a test or trial first to help you get an understanding of what you're up against, but you'll end up a better handler, with a better-trained dog and a lot of new friends.

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Re: NAVHDA dogs compared to NSTRA dogs

Post by polmaise » Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:23 pm

Yea, so why would any one want to compare .

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Re: NAVHDA dogs compared to NSTRA dogs

Post by Dakotazeb » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:10 pm

Well said ckirsch.

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Re: NAVHDA dogs compared to NSTRA dogs

Post by ckirsch » Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:07 pm

polmaise wrote:Yea, so why would any one want to compare .
Perhaps because they are not familiar with either and are trying to decide which organization is a better fit for them?

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Re: NAVHDA dogs compared to NSTRA dogs

Post by bustingcover » Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:53 pm

polmaise wrote:Yea, so why would any one want to compare .
Hunting season is over in most of the country. People are bored.

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Re: NAVHDA dogs compared to NSTRA dogs

Post by ckirsch » Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:48 pm

Things must be particularly bleak in Scotland.

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Re: NAVHDA dogs compared to NSTRA dogs

Post by crackerd » Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:27 pm

ckirsch wrote:Things must be particularly bleak in Scotland.
CK, it's true things aren't necessarily as bright on the brae as they are on Burns Night (Jan. 23), but there's still the buzz from T2 - Trainspotting 2 - to fuel enthusiasm and morale! Right, Robt.? Come to think of it, Renton would make a nice NAVHDA handler in one of the New York chapters...

MG

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