cost of a pup

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Featherfinder
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Re: cost of a pup

Post by Featherfinder » Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:08 am

Quote: Pointers? I've seen one pointer outside of a field trial or hunting preserve or hunting ground. One. They have a reputation, deserved or no, as creatures that live to run, unsuitable for the house, etc, etc, etc, although for most upland hunters they certainly get short shrift.

That is truly a myth. What pointers require are competent handlers, as is often the case with superior breeding of any breed. Try this one on for a test:
- put a bird to sleep out in a field. Bring your Brittany, GSP, GWP, etc. (Gordon's being the exception) up to that bird and measure distance of that dog's point from said bird. You can do this repeatedly and get a pretty consistent average distance if the wind is steady. Now, get a pointer or setter and try the same. In my experience - day-in day-out - I see a consistent, measurable difference. The latter two breeds have superior noses in general, across the board. I'm not talking about the rare exceptions.
Dogs that are unruly in the house are typically a reflection of their owners.
Getting a dog of any breeding that lives to run needs early training intervention so that the dog understands that as a "gun dog", we do this together. That is why I like to start field work with pups at 5-6 months of age. It is also why I get a kick out of bird hunters that tout, "You gotta see my dawg run!" I ask myself, "Why...does it only have 3 legs or something? Does it run backwards?" ......tells me nothing - at least nothing about the dog.
Pointers typically have BIG engines which can serve a bird dogger very well. I have a friend with one and since my old setter died, he has stepped up to the bat! He is our go-to dog. He is smart, has a switch, an incredible nose, is relentless with an amazing bottom end, retrieves from land or water, backs, has no aggression, and is the consummate coach potato in the home or while travelling. A pointer.......go figure?
There is a saying that goes something like, "You get what you pay for." That is not always the case with bird dogs.

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Re: cost of a pup

Post by slistoe » Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:05 am

Featherfinder wrote:Try this one on for a test:
- put a bird to sleep out in a field. Bring your Brittany, GSP, GWP, etc. (Gordon's being the exception) up to that bird and measure distance of that dog's point from said bird. You can do this repeatedly and get a pretty consistent average distance if the wind is steady. Now, get a pointer or setter and try the same. In my experience - day-in day-out - I see a consistent, measurable difference. The latter two breeds have superior noses in general, across the board. I'm not talking about the rare exceptions.
I'll second that.

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Re: cost of a pup

Post by slistoe » Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:09 am

Featherfinder wrote: Pointers typically have BIG engines which can serve a bird dogger very well. I have a friend with one and since my old setter died, he has stepped up to the bat! He is our go-to dog. He is smart, has a switch, an incredible nose, is relentless with an amazing bottom end, retrieves from land or water, backs, has no aggression, and is the consummate coach potato in the home or while travelling. A pointer.......go figure?
There is a saying that goes something like, "You get what you pay for." That is not always the case with bird dogs.
Sounds like most Pointers that I have had occasion to deal with.
If you are looking for "bang for your buck" in a birddog, Pointers are where it is at.

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Re: cost of a pup

Post by cjhills » Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:11 am

slistoe wrote:
Featherfinder wrote:Try this one on for a test:
- put a bird to sleep out in a field. Bring your Brittany, GSP, GWP, etc. (Gordon's being the exception) up to that bird and measure distance of that dog's point from said bird. You can do this repeatedly and get a pretty consistent average distance if the wind is steady. Now, get a pointer or setter and try the same. In my experience - day-in day-out - I see a consistent, measurable difference. The latter two breeds have superior noses in general, across the board. I'm not talking about the rare exceptions.
I'll second that.
I am assuming you are saying the pointers and setters point farthe3r off. Do you really think that has anything to do with the dogs nose? Silly.......Cj

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Re: cost of a pup

Post by slistoe » Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:48 am

cjhills wrote: I am assuming you are saying the pointers and setters point farthe3r off. Do you really think that has anything to do with the dogs nose? Silly.......Cj
Not all dogs have the same connection between their nose and their brain. Pointers seem to put the dots together better.

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Re: cost of a pup

Post by Featherfinder » Tue Mar 27, 2018 2:02 pm

Well said Slistoe!
You can adorn the conclusion with whatever verbiage suits your fancy. It doesn't change the fact. This observation I have made over and over and over.
I've had VERY good "other" breeds here. Still, I regret that I was such a slow study. I should have had setters/pointers 30 years ago. Time to move on.
The irony is that years ago, the versatile breeds were the ones with the more rounded natural ability traits such as retrieving, working through water, etc. The operative word is "were".
Just ran a very strong pointer and then a handsome setter (see below) in dense grouse words - their frenetic pace - their flowing graceful gait (perhaps in part because of their tail) - their relentless work ethic - their breath-taking style/intensity on point.... Dang.....it was good for the soul!!
My cousin and I were in Bowling Green KY test driving new GMs. He took out a Camaro and I took out a Vette. When we came back, he was all excited and said, "I'm going to buy one of those!"
I said, "OK....I suggest you NOT test drive the Corvette then."
He asked, "Why..?"
My answer was, "Just sayin'..."
I turned around and there he was, out driving a Corvette. When he came back he said, "You S.O.B.! I can't buy a Camaro now!" Three months later he bought a (used) Corvette. He would have been perfectly fine buying a Camaro....not knowing what he was missing.
And that parallels my experience with bird dog breeds.....MANY bird dog breeds. I did say I was a slow study, didn't I?
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Re: cost of a pup

Post by slistoe » Tue Mar 27, 2018 2:13 pm

Featherfinder wrote:Well said Slistoe!
You can adorn the conclusion with whatever verbiage suits your fancy. It doesn't change the fact. This observation I have made over and over and over.
I've had VERY good "other" breeds here. Still, I regret that I was such a slow study. I should have had setters/pointers 30 years ago. Time to move on.
The irony is that years ago, the versatile breeds were the ones with the more rounded natural ability traits such as retrieving, working through water, etc. The operative word is "were".
Just ran a very strong pointer and then a handsome setter in dense grouse words (see pic below)- their frenetic pace - their flowing graceful gait (perhaps in part because of their tail) - their relentless work ethic - their breath-taking style/intensity on point.... Dang.....it was good for the soul!!
My cousin and I were in Bowling Green KY test driving new GMs. He took out a Camaro and I took out a Vette. When we came back, he was all excited and said, "I'm going to buy one of those!"
I said, "OK....I suggest you NOT test drive the Corvette then."
He asked, "Why..?"
My answer was, "Just sayin'..."
I turned around and there he was, out driving a Corvette. When he came back he said, "You S.O.B.! I can't buy a Camaro now!" Three months later he bought a (used) Corvette. He would have been perfectly fine buying a Camaro....not knowing what he was missing.
And that parallels my experience with bird dog breeds.....MANY bird dog breeds. I did say I was a slow study, didn't I?
:) All that said, I am sticking with my Brittanys. Although a lemon pointer has tempted me a couple times.

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Re: cost of a pup

Post by Featherfinder » Tue Mar 27, 2018 2:19 pm

Slistoe, all I can say is what Nike says, "Just do it!" :)
You won't be sorry. I too had wonderful champion Britts!

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Re: cost of a pup

Post by slistoe » Tue Mar 27, 2018 2:30 pm

Hey, I did have an orange and white setter once. She was an All Age trial dog that the owner was needing to rehome from a divorce and I was needing a hunting dog because my Brit had just passed away. That dog made me rethink what I had been told about trials and trial dogs in the popular press, NAVDHA and in the campgrounds in bird season.

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Re: cost of a pup

Post by Mike da Carpenter » Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:22 pm

$1000 to one guy is the same a $5 to another and likewise the other way around. Your money, spend it how you want. Three things you never talk about...Politics, religion and cost of your bird dog...especially to the wife on the last one.

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Re: cost of a pup

Post by JONOV » Thu Mar 29, 2018 3:06 pm

slistoe wrote:Hey, I did have an orange and white setter once. She was an All Age trial dog that the owner was needing to rehome from a divorce and I was needing a hunting dog because my Brit had just passed away. That dog made me rethink what I had been told about trials and trial dogs in the popular press, NAVDHA and in the campgrounds in bird season.
I would agree with you. If you can handle a dog to do what you want half a mile away, then surely you can handle the dog to do what you need to shorter in.

Every corner of the bird dog world will tell you about all the shortcomings of other factions. Every venue will overlook shortcomings that can develop in search of a desired trait. A lab trial might tell you nothing about if the dog can sit politely in a duck blind all morning. Hunting tests may allow passes for dogs that really hunt too close or without enough oomph. AA field trials could lead to dogs that have too much run without the other important pieces to make it acceptable. But, I've been to a few field trials and a few hunt tests, and can tell you that its a rare pointing breed that works boot-polishing range, and that most field trial dogs don't disappear and run to the next county, even though they do have a large motor.

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Re: cost of a pup

Post by Featherfinder » Sun Apr 01, 2018 11:33 am

Mike, the issue I have with $$$$ - regardless of your snack bracket - is that unlike so many other aspects of life, the $$$$ are not a reflection of the value you are acquiring in a bird dog! As I have said on many occasions, "I simply do not understand why folk pay twice the money for half the dog?"

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Re: cost of a pup

Post by cjhills » Sun Apr 01, 2018 9:10 pm

Featherfinder wrote:Mike, the issue I have with $$$$ - regardless of your snack bracket - is that unlike so many other aspects of life, the $$$$ are not a reflection of the value you are acquiring in a bird dog! As I have said on many occasions, "I simply do not understand why folk pay twice the money for half the dog?"
Pretty sure "my half a dog" and your "half a dog" would be as different as night and day.
People are not as stupid as some people would like us to believe. There is a reason why you almost never see a pointer in a hunt test, and English setters rare..............Cj

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Re: cost of a pup

Post by slistoe » Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:05 pm

cjhills wrote: People are not as stupid as some people would like us to believe. There is a reason why you almost never see a pointer in a hunt test, and English setters rare..............Cj
A fellow was training a young pointer and felt he had him about ready for the fall derby season, but he wanted to get him in a setting where there were other dogs to run with as he had only been running and training with his own dogs. There was a hunt test coming up so he entered in Senior Hunter. I was judging that day and there came the time the dog pointed a bird and the handler went in to flush - he immediately turned to watch his dog since this was the crucial point to test in the training - would the dog hold with the commotion of other people, another dog backing and guns. The first gunner missed the bird and it went around the trees, but the second gunner had a line and dropped the bird some 40 yards out around the corner. Turning to me the handler asked if the bird was down, I said yes. Now this was an Am. Fld. Pointer that has never heard the word fetch in his life - and has no expectation to retrieve at all. The fellow released his dog, it beelined around the corner of the trees and when the handler called promptly came, tail wagging and happy as a lark with the bird. As good a presentation to hand as any dog there that day. To show it was not a "fluke" the scene was repeated a second time. In the end the dog recorded the high score of the day and also was given the award by the gunners as "Gunners Choice" - the dog they agreed they would all choose from the field of dogs that day if they had the choice of which one to hunt over.
This fellow is still raising, training and trialing with his pointers in the Am. Fld. horseback trials. He has never been back to a hunt test again all these years later. He really doesn't care. He wanted to do some testing/training on his dog for his own purpose and the hunt test happened to fill the bill. Now I don't really know what reason you think there is for the fellows with the top notch pointers and setter to not show at a hunt test, but I can assure you that this fellow and his competition could fill the slate at a hunt test on any given day and take home a mitt full of pass ribbons - but they really don't care about a hunt test ribbon.

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Re: cost of a pup

Post by bustingcover » Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:28 pm

slistoe wrote:
cjhills wrote: People are not as stupid as some people would like us to believe. There is a reason why you almost never see a pointer in a hunt test, and English setters rare..............Cj
A fellow was training a young pointer and felt he had him about ready for the fall derby season, but he wanted to get him in a setting where there were other dogs to run with as he had only been running and training with his own dogs. There was a hunt test coming up so he entered in Senior Hunter. I was judging that day and there came the time the dog pointed a bird and the handler went in to flush - he immediately turned to watch his dog since this was the crucial point to test in the training - would the dog hold with the commotion of other people, another dog backing and guns. The first gunner missed the bird and it went around the trees, but the second gunner had a line and dropped the bird some 40 yards out around the corner. Turning to me the handler asked if the bird was down, I said yes. Now this was an Am. Fld. Pointer that has never heard the word fetch in his life - and has no expectation to retrieve at all. The fellow released his dog, it beelined around the corner of the trees and when the handler called promptly came, tail wagging and happy as a lark with the bird. As good a presentation to hand as any dog there that day. To show it was not a "fluke" the scene was repeated a second time. In the end the dog recorded the high score of the day and also was given the award by the gunners as "Gunners Choice" - the dog they agreed they would all choose from the field of dogs that day if they had the choice of which one to hunt over.
This fellow is still raising, training and trialing with his pointers in the Am. Fld. horseback trials. He has never been back to a hunt test again all these years later. He really doesn't care. He wanted to do some testing/training on his dog for his own purpose and the hunt test happened to fill the bill. Now I don't really know what reason you think there is for the fellows with the top notch pointers and setter to not show at a hunt test, but I can assure you that this fellow and his competition could fill the slate at a hunt test on any given day and take home a mitt full of pass ribbons - but they really don't care about a hunt test ribbon.
Why would he enter a dog in a SH test without knowing if the dog would retrieve? Also why not enter MH as SH is basically just a green broke dog.

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Re: cost of a pup

Post by slistoe » Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:25 am

bustingcover wrote:
slistoe wrote:
cjhills wrote: People are not as stupid as some people would like us to believe. There is a reason why you almost never see a pointer in a hunt test, and English setters rare..............Cj
A fellow was training a young pointer and felt he had him about ready for the fall derby season, but he wanted to get him in a setting where there were other dogs to run with as he had only been running and training with his own dogs. There was a hunt test coming up so he entered in Senior Hunter. I was judging that day and there came the time the dog pointed a bird and the handler went in to flush - he immediately turned to watch his dog since this was the crucial point to test in the training - would the dog hold with the commotion of other people, another dog backing and guns. The first gunner missed the bird and it went around the trees, but the second gunner had a line and dropped the bird some 40 yards out around the corner. Turning to me the handler asked if the bird was down, I said yes. Now this was an Am. Fld. Pointer that has never heard the word fetch in his life - and has no expectation to retrieve at all. The fellow released his dog, it beelined around the corner of the trees and when the handler called promptly came, tail wagging and happy as a lark with the bird. As good a presentation to hand as any dog there that day. To show it was not a "fluke" the scene was repeated a second time. In the end the dog recorded the high score of the day and also was given the award by the gunners as "Gunners Choice" - the dog they agreed they would all choose from the field of dogs that day if they had the choice of which one to hunt over.
This fellow is still raising, training and trialing with his pointers in the Am. Fld. horseback trials. He has never been back to a hunt test again all these years later. He really doesn't care. He wanted to do some testing/training on his dog for his own purpose and the hunt test happened to fill the bill. Now I don't really know what reason you think there is for the fellows with the top notch pointers and setter to not show at a hunt test, but I can assure you that this fellow and his competition could fill the slate at a hunt test on any given day and take home a mitt full of pass ribbons - but they really don't care about a hunt test ribbon.
Why would he enter a dog in a SH test without knowing if the dog would retrieve? Also why not enter MH as SH is basically just a green broke dog.
He didn't care if the dog passed or not on the retrieve. He wanted to run the dog in a scenario where there were strange people, dogs and horses to be able to get the dog that experience with being steady in that setting. As to the standard of the test - would you let your steady dog break just because the test didn't require steady? I think he got what he wanted out of the day and a ribbon to boot.

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Re: cost of a pup

Post by cjhills » Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:34 am

That is all very nice. A good trainer could train almost any dog to pass a senior hunt test and the dog you made reference to, would be an exception no matter what breed. The fact remains that in many years of hunting the Midwest and running hunt tests, I have seen no pointers and only a handful of setters in the Tests, fields, campgrounds or at trainer friends kennels and motels. One test is the English Setter Club of MN. They have only one or two Master level setters. The Gordons will have a test in Mn. the end of April with No Gordons.
My question is, is this just poor marketing, are dog people not knowledgeable enough to know there is a better way.
No, the reason there are more Short tailed dogs is because Their natural ability makes it easy for the average owner to get what he wants out of a family bird dog, which will be to go hunting a few weekends in the fall, put birds in the bag and hang out with the family the rest of the year. We breed dogs that will do that. Along with that we throw in health tests, Show ring conformation that is functional in the field and stands the test of time. They also have the mental and physical ability to perform in any walking event their owners want to do. They won't all be champions but some.
The market for dogs is pet owners and designer dogs. $3000 labradoodles should tell us something. My daughter has a $2300 Labradoodle. I will guarantee you she does not think she got half the dog. She thinks that dog was a bargain and that is what really counts. The breeder of that dog put a lot of time and work into their breeding program and breed nice dogs. Not what I want, but some people do.
Whatever floats your boat. I am always on the dogs side. If you get a nice dog that is what you want you are the winner..............Cj

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Re: cost of a pup

Post by slistoe » Mon Apr 02, 2018 8:45 am

cjhills wrote:t and the dog you made reference to, would be an exception no matter what breed...............Cj
This statement is flat out wrong - the dog I made reference to exists 100's of times over and more the norm than the exception. Popularity, fads and whims are usually the death of a strong gene pool, and these fellows are not really interested in popularity - they have a singular focus - to create the best bird dogs they can. Good enough bird dogs hold no interest to them because that is not how you strengthen and maintain the line.
I will not argue with you about we should all get the dog that makes us happy, nor that the average bird dog owner has any interest in having the "best" bird dog.

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Re: cost of a pup

Post by bustingcover » Mon Apr 02, 2018 9:21 am

cjhills wrote:That is all very nice. A good trainer could train almost any dog to pass a senior hunt test and the dog you made reference to, would be an exception no matter what breed. The fact remains that in many years of hunting the Midwest and running hunt tests, I have seen no pointers and only a handful of setters in the Tests, fields, campgrounds or at trainer friends kennels and motels. One test is the English Setter Club of MN. They have only one or two Master level setters. The Gordons will have a test in Mn. the end of April with No Gordons.
My question is, is this just poor marketing, are dog people not knowledgeable enough to know there is a better way.
I have a dog out of a really nice young Pointer female with her FC/AFC and MH on the west coast. And know of many other Gordon’s/Red Setters with JH and SH titles. I think the biggest reason you don’t see more of the Pointers in Setters in Hunt tests comes down to resources. There’s only so many dates in a calendar year and it’s impossoble to be in two places at once. So many FT people choose to trial there Dogs vs skipping a trial to run in a test that doesn’t count towards there priority venue and is, in a sense, redundant.

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Re: cost of a pup

Post by SCT » Mon Apr 02, 2018 1:10 pm

I have and breed pointers. But, I have no interest at all in hunt tests that are on 40 or 80 acres. My dogs will eat that small of an area up in too short of period. I prefer big running, 100% BIRD dog type dogs. But that's just me. I have a young friend who has about 12-15 GSP's and guides on his families ranch. He bought a pointer pup from me a couple years ago. He absolutely loves him and HIS retrieving ability on land and water and he and one GSP are his go to dogs for hunting wild birds. But, he is also at the top for the guided clients. Says the clients love him too because he's so friendly. He has often wondered when he is going to slow down and "pace" himself like his gsp's. I tell him I would not expect him to slow down until after he's 10 years old;-)

He's run him in hunt tests and he scored very high, but he says he's such a handful in the small fields he doesn't know if he'll get it done. I told him to run him in AF trials because that's where he'll excel. And the truth of the matter is he's just like all my pointers. Where I hunt, birds can be few and far between and they (dogs) have got to stretch out to locate coveys. Mine need to stretch out for several hours at a time when hunting chukars because of the expanse of the country I hunt.

So, to each his own.

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Re: cost of a pup

Post by ckirsch » Mon Apr 02, 2018 2:46 pm

I've been running AA-bred pointers in NAVHDA for the past eight or nine years. Have run in four UT tests and scored a Pz 1, pair of 2's, and a 3. One of the dogs picked up his VC at the age of two. I'm five hours from the closest chapter so my dogs never get the benefit of training on the test grounds, and while I'd have preferred they all sailed through the UT tests, I'm not especially disappointed with their performances. Two of them did great in all of the retrieving portions of the tests, and they all swam well. All three have scored 4 in the duck search. The one I picked up as a yearling isn't as enthusiastic about retrieving as the two I brought home as pups so I suspect it's important to get them retrieving early. Mine are easy keepers and very quiet in the kennel which is a requirement for me as I live in town. Two of the three would range out to 500 yards for sharptails on the prairie and then stay within 30-40 yards while hunting pheasants in cattails.

I think the reason you don't see more of them in hunt tests is that too many people buy into all of the myths about the breed being aloof, detesting water, and being poor retrievers. The fact that for around $500 I can usually pick up a pup with 4-5 trial champions in the previous four generations is another bonus. Mine are poor watchdogs as they seem to hold out hope that anyone sneaking around the yard might be there to take them hunting, and they are fearsome shedders during the spring and summer months, to the point that it's tough to have them in the house then, or in the cab of my truck. Other than that, I've no complaints.....

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Re: cost of a pup

Post by Featherfinder » Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:36 am

Slistoe, SCT, and ckirsh...sounds like you know your dogs! I recently lost a setter that won horseback trials, walking trials and was the most wonderful wild bird hunter in all my years hunting. She came from trial lines. She could transition into a test dog or game farm dog ( and did on rare occasion) but she struggled in the first segments trying to figure out why the birds were so incredibly stupid that they were being found in "unlikely cover". It was a chore to get her to redirect away from typical/probable bird cover to where the pen-raised birds were being planted in order to facilitate the process. She was basically too smart for the rules of the synthetically created game. Had I wanted, I could have given her more opportunities in this setting and passed whatever test there was simply because she was as steady as they come of her own volition, loved to retrieve to hand with prancing and tail wagging furiously, backed and handled without any verbals/whistle or arms flailing. The question might be, "So why didn't you run her in these venues?" My answer is two-fold. The first being I did not want to redirect my dog down to that level as it has little-to-no place in where wild bird hunting is concerned. The second being I did not care to invest in both - no interest in tests with my current dogs.
I too have hunted/hunt the mid-west with pointers, setters, Britts, GSPs. I also hunt massive dense areas of grouse and woodcock in northern Ontario where getting lost might be the last thing you do on this earth. I hunt the vast prairies that are literally a sea of cut grain fields without target areas or defined objectives where savvy birds will see the slow, methodical, plodding, nose-down, dog approaching. In these many and varied environs you need dogs that are smart and strong with tons of pace and endurance, as well as amazing noses - dogs that can take you to birds. If I have target areas where I know the odds of birds are great, I bring out the Britt, GSP, etc. to do what comes naturally to them. In those earlier venues I described where birds can be ANYWHERE, I need dogs that can use their brains and their brawn to take me to birds. Odds support pointers and setters in MY applications.....hands down.
The dodgy, loping, "patterned" pointing dog that frequents hunt clubs/tests/NAVHDA are useless in my wild bird hunting world. I'd be better off bringing a friend along. We could split up and be just as effective. He would share in the costs, help clean birds, and then he would go home and look after himself! (By-the-way, dogs can do both however it has to be of interest to you. I used to do that but now I just hunt wild birds predominantly.)
Another given is that, if you want your Britt, GSP, etc. to cover enough ground to be productive like a pointer, you need to build run, which is often why you hear said owners tout, "You gotta see this dog run!" That's because it wasn't natural to those breeds to begin with! Pointers and setters are born with the power to cover ground and a nose that can keep pace with their stride. All you have to do is help them understand we do this together....period.....done!
Further-to-this, all too often that GSP, Britt, etc. does not have the inherent nose that goes with the humanly-enhanced pace. Many won't believe or understand what I am alluding to but you put that running short-tail in my hunting environs and the percentages speak for themselves.
I expect to get backlash from knowledgeable GSP, Britt owners and I have it coming. Remember, I had Britts for 26 years and exceptional ones too!! The issues is that those of you with exceptional short-tails have exactly that - exceptions. Or, you can simply get a pointer or setter. It took me years to discern the probabilities but like I said, "I might not be the sharpest knife in the drawer but eventually, even I caught on."
One of the biggest differences in my experience is that the superior performing dog (regardless of breed/breeding) sometimes requires a more competent handler. Perhaps this is where some struggle? Obviously, from what I have read here, some have misconceptions or are intimidated by setters/pointers. I get it. In other cases, folk simply don't know about, or appreciate/recognize, or aspire to have that lofty level of competency. For some, shooting/killing trumps HOW the scenario unfolded. And that is why there is something for everyone.
Perhaps, the observation that few pointers and setters are reported in certain synthetic venues does in fact tell you something. That something might be more about their owners than their dog's competency.
Last edited by Featherfinder on Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:42 am, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: cost of a pup

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:52 am

Featherfinder. Different people as well as different dogs have different abilities as well as different standards of perfection. None are right or wrong, just different, thank God.

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Re: cost of a pup

Post by Featherfinder » Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:20 am

ezzy333, you are right on Sir. I have no intention of imposing my hunting style/preferences on anyone. Sometimes, there are too many of us as it is! :wink:
I was simply sharing my breed-specific experiences.

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Re: cost of a pup

Post by crackerd » Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:59 am

Featherfinder wrote:ezzy333, you are right on Sir. I have no intention of imposing my hunting style/preferences on anyone. Sometimes, there are too many of us as it is! :wink:
I was simply sharing my breed-specific experiences.
And they're enjoyed by many here, Feather - as are Mr. Kirsch's recollections of rather going against the grain with all-age pointers.

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Re: cost of a pup

Post by cjhills » Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:23 am

Featherfinder wrote:Slistoe, SCT, and ckirsh...sounds like you know your dogs! I recently lost a setter that won horseback trials, walking trials and was the most wonderful wild bird hunter in all my years hunting. She came from trial lines. She could transition into a test dog or game farm dog ( and did on rare occasion) but she struggled in the first segments trying to figure out why the birds were so incredibly stupid that they were being found in "unlikely cover". It was a chore to get her to redirect away from typical/probable bird cover to where the pen-raised birds were being planted in order to facilitate the process. She was basically too smart for the rules of the synthetically created game. Had I wanted, I could have given her more opportunities in this setting and passed whatever test there was simply because she was as steady as they come of her own volition, loved to retrieve to hand with prancing and tail wagging furiously, backed and handled without any verbals/whistle or arms flailing. The question might be, "So why didn't you run her in these venues?" My answer is two-fold. The first being I did not want to redirect my dog down to that level as it has little-to-no place in where wild bird hunting is concerned. The second being I did not care to invest in both - no interest in tests with my current dogs.
I too have hunted/hunt the mid-west with pointers, setters, Britts, GSPs. I also hunt massive dense areas of grouse and woodcock in northern Ontario where getting lost might be the last thing you do on this earth. I hunt the vast prairies that are literally a sea of cut grain fields without target areas or defined objectives where savvy birds will see the slow, methodical, plodding, nose-down, dog approaching. In these many and varied environs you need dogs that are smart and strong with tons of pace and endurance, as well as amazing noses - dogs that can take you to birds. If I have target areas where I know the odds of birds are great, I bring out the Britt, GSP, etc. to do what comes naturally to them. In those earlier venues I described where birds can be ANYWHERE, I need dogs that can use their brains and their brawn to take me to birds. Odds support pointers and setters in MY applications.....hands down.
The dodgy, loping, "patterned" pointing dog that frequents hunt clubs/tests/NAVHDA are useless in my wild bird hunting world. I'd be better off bringing a friend along. We could split up and be just as effective. He would share in the costs, help clean birds, and then he would go home and look after himself! (By-the-way, dogs can do both however it has to be of interest to you. I used to do that but now I just hunt wild birds predominantly.)
Another given is that, if you want your Britt, GSP, etc. to cover enough ground to be productive like a pointer, you need to build run, which is often why you hear said owners tout, "You gotta see this dog run!" That's because it wasn't natural to those breeds to begin with! Pointers and setters are born with the power to cover ground and a nose that can keep pace with their stride. All you have to do is help them understand we do this together....period.....done!
Further-to-this, all too often that GSP, Britt, etc. does not have the inherent nose that goes with the humanly-enhanced pace. Many won't believe or understand what I am alluding to but you put that running short-tail in my hunting environs and the percentages speak for themselves.
I expect to get backlash from knowledgeable GSP, Britt owners and I have it coming. Remember, I had Britts for 26 years and exceptional ones too!! The issues is that those of you with exceptional short-tails have exactly that - exceptions. Or, you can simply get a pointer or setter. It took me years to discern the probabilities but like I said, "I might not be the sharpest knife in the drawer but eventually, even I caught on."
One of the biggest differences in my experience is that the superior performing dog (regardless of breed/breeding) sometimes requires a more competent handler. Perhaps this is where some struggle? Obviously, from what I have read here, some have misconceptions or are intimidated by setters/pointers. I get it. In other cases, folk simply don't know about, or appreciate/recognize, or aspire to have that lofty level of competency. For some, shooting/killing trumps HOW the scenario unfolded. And that is why there is something for everyone.
Perhaps, the observation that few pointers and setters are reported in certain synthetic venues does in fact tell you something. That something might be more about their owners than their dog's competency.
Obviously you are much more knowledgeable and experienced than I or anybody else on here. What your post has to do with the cost of a puppy, I have no idea.
Early on this thread somebody referred to the cost of two different performance cars. The truth is either one would be of no value to me if I had to keep it for my own daily use. Same goes for dogs. But, thank god for people like you to tell us what we need to know. .....................Cj

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Re: cost of a pup

Post by birddogger2 » Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:05 pm

Actually cJ, Featherfinder does have a relative wealth of experience that extends far beyond just one breed and one way of enjoying pointing dogs.

There are lots of misconceptions regarding the various breeds of pointing dogs. There are lots of folks who actively promote the "virtues" of one breed. Some even manage to do it without disparaging other breeds and other way of enjoying the dogs.

I have found that there is far, far more variability between individual animals in each of the four "big" pointing breeds(pointer, E. setter Brittany and GSP) than in between the breeds. You can find horizon busters in each of these breeds. You can also find close working dogs in each breed. You can mold and train and develop well bred animals from each of these breeds to do just about anything you want them to do and just about any kind of hunting you choose. It just takes time and the knowledge of how to accomplish the needed training. You can create nasty, dangerous dogs from any of these breeds or can create sensitive, loving family oriented pets. The best of the four breeds are high drive, high energy, bird finding machines. The average members of those four breeds may have a little less drive, a little less energy...but they are almost always bird finding machines. And THAT is why they are the "big four" of the pointing dog world. They get it done. The ability to hunt, to retrieve, to swim, to brave the thick and nasty is not the private domain of any one breed of bird dog. Some breeds are better suited at one aspect of the realm of abilities required of hunting dogs than the others. White pointers are naturally more heat tolerant than E. Setters, Brittanys or the darker colored GSP's. But that doesn't mean you cannot find examples of each of those other breeds that exhibit high heat tolerance. You can.

As far as personalities are concerned...I wish I could have shown you a racecar of a bird dog...a pointer... that would come up to me or my wife and rub up against our legs like a cat and who let me put my granddaughter on his back and ride him like a pony. He absolutely craved attention and would stick his head inside my jacket...or my shirt to get close to me and get stroked. That same dog would hunt to the gun in a 40 acre preserve field or run to the absolute limits in Amateur All Age(American Field) horseback competition, if that is what I asked of him.

Not all dogs are created equal. Neither are their owners.



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Re: cost of a pup

Post by cjhills » Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:42 pm

What does that have to do with the price of a puppy.
I suppose my four wheel drive truck would be called a nose to the ground plodder by some but it sure beats a performance car for getting where you want to go in the Minnesota Grouse Woods............................Cj

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Re: cost of a pup

Post by Steve007 » Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:46 pm

While we all have our own opinions--some of which are right and some wrong-- I feel it is inappropriate to build up our own breed at the implicit expense of others. I'll admit I could I could be over-sensitive as my FC GWP is 15 now, and my beloved FC Gordon Setter has passed away. I hold Pointers and English Setters in high regard, and have no wish to criticize them. I think it's a pretty good idea for well-bred dogs of any breed. They all have overwhelming positives if you do your share. And if takes a little longer for some breeds to pick up on some things than others --such as retrieving-- well, it's only work if you'd rather be doing something else. imo

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Re: cost of a pup

Post by SCT » Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:03 pm

Featherfinder wrote:Slistoe, SCT, and ckirsh...sounds like you know your dogs! I recently lost a setter that won horseback trials, walking trials and was the most wonderful wild bird hunter in all my years hunting. She came from trial lines. She could transition into a test dog or game farm dog ( and did on rare occasion) but she struggled in the first segments trying to figure out why the birds were so incredibly stupid that they were being found in "unlikely cover". It was a chore to get her to redirect away from typical/probable bird cover to where the pen-raised birds were being planted in order to facilitate the process. She was basically too smart for the rules of the synthetically created game. Had I wanted, I could have given her more opportunities in this setting and passed whatever test there was simply because she was as steady as they come of her own volition, loved to retrieve to hand with prancing and tail wagging furiously, backed and handled without any verbals/whistle or arms flailing. The question might be, "So why didn't you run her in these venues?" My answer is two-fold. The first being I did not want to redirect my dog down to that level as it has little-to-no place in where wild bird hunting is concerned. The second being I did not care to invest in both - no interest in tests with my current dogs.
I too have hunted/hunt the mid-west with pointers, setters, Britts, GSPs. I also hunt massive dense areas of grouse and woodcock in northern Ontario where getting lost might be the last thing you do on this earth. I hunt the vast prairies that are literally a sea of cut grain fields without target areas or defined objectives where savvy birds will see the slow, methodical, plodding, nose-down, dog approaching. In these many and varied environs you need dogs that are smart and strong with tons of pace and endurance, as well as amazing noses - dogs that can take you to birds. If I have target areas where I know the odds of birds are great, I bring out the Britt, GSP, etc. to do what comes naturally to them. In those earlier venues I described where birds can be ANYWHERE, I need dogs that can use their brains and their brawn to take me to birds. Odds support pointers and setters in MY applications.....hands down.
The dodgy, loping, "patterned" pointing dog that frequents hunt clubs/tests/NAVHDA are useless in my wild bird hunting world. I'd be better off bringing a friend along. We could split up and be just as effective. He would share in the costs, help clean birds, and then he would go home and look after himself! (By-the-way, dogs can do both however it has to be of interest to you. I used to do that but now I just hunt wild birds predominantly.)
Another given is that, if you want your Britt, GSP, etc. to cover enough ground to be productive like a pointer, you need to build run, which is often why you hear said owners tout, "You gotta see this dog run!" That's because it wasn't natural to those breeds to begin with! Pointers and setters are born with the power to cover ground and a nose that can keep pace with their stride. All you have to do is help them understand we do this together....period.....done!
Further-to-this, all too often that GSP, Britt, etc. does not have the inherent nose that goes with the humanly-enhanced pace. Many won't believe or understand what I am alluding to but you put that running short-tail in my hunting environs and the percentages speak for themselves.
I expect to get backlash from knowledgeable GSP, Britt owners and I have it coming. Remember, I had Britts for 26 years and exceptional ones too!! The issues is that those of you with exceptional short-tails have exactly that - exceptions. Or, you can simply get a pointer or setter. It took me years to discern the probabilities but like I said, "I might not be the sharpest knife in the drawer but eventually, even I caught on."
One of the biggest differences in my experience is that the superior performing dog (regardless of breed/breeding) sometimes requires a more competent handler. Perhaps this is where some struggle? Obviously, from what I have read here, some have misconceptions or are intimidated by setters/pointers. I get it. In other cases, folk simply don't know about, or appreciate/recognize, or aspire to have that lofty level of competency. For some, shooting/killing trumps HOW the scenario unfolded. And that is why there is something for everyone.
Perhaps, the observation that few pointers and setters are reported in certain synthetic venues does in fact tell you something. That something might be more about their owners than their dog's competency.
Very well said FF, and very true from my experience. Even though I've never owned a britt or gsp I've seen plenty of them hunting and like you say, it doesn't fit into what my preferences are. Nothing against those other breeds because the gsp's around here are way more popular. They really gained popularity after they had new blood infused;-)

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Re: cost of a pup

Post by mask » Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:11 pm

Hey, sct, nice shot :D I guess the price of a pup thread is shot too. lol

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Re: cost of a pup

Post by slistoe » Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:33 pm

cjhills wrote:What does that have to do with the price of a puppy.
I suppose my four wheel drive truck would be called a nose to the ground plodder by some but it sure beats a performance car for getting where you want to go in the Minnesota Grouse Woods............................Cj
It all has to do with price of a pup when the assertion was made that you could buy much stronger bird dog genetics for a few hundred dollars than you would ever get in most other breeds for a thousand or two. You called that into question and have had a litany of folks corroborating the initial premise. But you hang on to the myths if you like.

As for your analogy, you have that totally messed up as well. It would be more like "Should I buy a F250 4x4 for $100,000 or this Land Rover for $50,000?"

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Re: cost of a pup

Post by cjhills » Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:43 pm

slistoe wrote:
cjhills wrote:What does that have to do with the price of a puppy.
I suppose my four wheel drive truck would be called a nose to the ground plodder by some but it sure beats a performance car for getting where you want to go in the Minnesota Grouse Woods............................Cj
It all has to do with price of a pup when the assertion was made that you could buy much stronger bird dog genetics for a few hundred dollars than you would ever get in most other breeds for a thousand or two. You called that into question and have had a litany of folks corroborating the initial premise. But you hang on to the myths if you like.

As for your analogy, you have that totally messed up as well. It would be more like "Should I buy a F250 4x4 for $100,000 or this Land Rover for $50,000?"
I have no idea what you are talking about. If you can find the post where I made the assertion that you can buy much stronger bird dog genetics for a few hundred dollars than you get in other breeds for a thousand or two. Quote It
Don't think that was me and I don't deal in myths. Did you ever price a National Champion Caliber Lab Puppy.
I would buy avery nice F 150 for much less than $100,000 and forget the land rover. In fact I just did that...............Cj

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Re: cost of a pup

Post by slistoe » Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:40 pm

cjhills wrote: I have no idea what you are talking about. If you can find the post where I made the assertion that you can buy much stronger bird dog genetics for a few hundred dollars than you get in other breeds for a thousand or two. Quote It
Don't think that was me and I don't deal in myths. Did you ever price a National Champion Caliber Lab Puppy.
I would buy avery nice F 150 for much less than $100,000 and forget the land rover. In fact I just did that...............Cj
I have to recap for you?
It was featherfinder said why would someone pay twice the money for half the dog. You countered with "There is a reason why you almost never see a pointer in a hunt test, and English setters rare....". I said I didn't know what you thought that reason was, but gave an example of why it was, which was supported by a few pointer/setter owners. You came back with "that dog is an exception" - if you believe that you deal in myths. And later followed with my four wheel drive truck works better than a performance car - again an oft related myth which you are dealing out.
And yes, I know what a Nat. Ch. calibre Lab pup is worth. I owned a sister to Lean Mac many years ago. The retriever trialing/testing/training venue is big business compared to bird dogs.

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Re: cost of a pup

Post by birddogger2 » Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:16 pm

slistoe -

Don't you get it?? If it ain't about GSP's...and more specifically about cJ's particular type of GSP's, it is wrong. He is right.

Pointers can't swim, can't retrieve, won't hunt dead for cripples and they make horrible family pets because they are so aloof.

It does not matter how many different posters contradict these stereotypes with dogs that they own or have owned personally.

cJ KNOWS that only shorthairs can do these things. HIS shorthairs.

It does not matter that, two years ago, I purchased a pointer puppy that was sired by an American Field Nat'l Shooting Dog champion, with THIRTY(30) AF champions in his five gen(64 dog) pedigree and with 10 Hall of Fame dogs... for $650. The dog is worthless. It does not matter that my previous puppy purchase, five years ago, was a dog that has TWENTY NINE(29) American Field champions in her 64 dog, 5 gen pedigree and 13 hall of Fame dogs...for $400. That dog is worthless also.

Just ask him. He will tell you. cJ knows all about it. His dogs are the best.

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Re: cost of a pup

Post by cjhills » Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:58 pm

Ray
Changing your name didn't change your attitude.
I never put down your dogs or bragged up mine.
As the name says we are discussing the cost of a pup. On average Pointer pups are cheaper than any of the pointing breeds. There are few exceptions from breeders who have developed nice dogs and a clientele who wants them. At least one of them is on this forum. Setter breeders in Mn. get a decent price for their pups because they have bred dogs that function well in the grouse woods.
You all brag about buying this super pup for $400 to $600. Why is that. Telling us about all the great pointers you have bought on the cheap really has nothing to do with this thread. Tell us why they are so cheap. It does not seem like the cheap price have made them more popular. I said I never see one in the fields or woods. The theory about less bird hunting does not hold water because the price of GSPs and Britneys keeps going up. Why is that?
You are right I breed GSPs. You Are wrong I have never told you my dogs were better than yours. They very likely are not. They are what I want and they are what I can sell for a reasonable price. They are talented bird dogs that take very little training to be high level birddogs, which will point with style, honor and retrieve. They are Not ground sniffing plodders as F says. But I don't need a scout on a sweaty horse to keep track of them either.
I refuse to risk the life of my females to sell somebody a $400 puppy. It just makes no sense. I have had big running GSPs who would hunt a half a mile away on the prairies. I really like those dogs. They were beautiful and fun. They did not produce more birds.
It seems hard for you and F to understand that some of us might like our dogs almost as much as you like yours. Why can't you just be happy with yours and quit telling us how much better they are. I at least DO NOT CARE..........Cj

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Re: cost of a pup

Post by slistoe » Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:26 pm

cjhills wrote: It just makes no sense. I have had big running GSPs who would hunt a half a mile away on the prairies. I really like those dogs. They were beautiful and fun. They did not produce more birds.
It seems hard for you and F to understand that some of us might like our dogs almost as much as you like yours. Why can't you just be happy with yours and quit telling us how much better they are. I at least DO NOT CARE..........Cj
I like my dogs as much as anyone else may like theirs. That is for sure. But it doesn't stop me from being objective in looking at the various dogs. You can get the biggest running GSP for the prairies you want - it won't have the range or endurance or bird finding prowess of the biggest going pointers. That's a fact. And if you want to take that pointer hunting you won't need a scout on a sweaty horse to keep track of those pointers either - keep trotting out the myths.
A good friend who has long since passed got her start with Brittanys. After some years of playing the trial game she switched to pointers. I asked her why she had switched. She said she didn't like losing. At 75 years old she decided maybe she needed one more hunting dog as her old boy was getting on. She bought a new pointer pup from a hunting plantation in Texas because she wanted to get more heat tolerance and lots of bottom. There were a lot of white dogs in that pups pedigree. Last I hunted with her she was 78 and my dogs got lots of backing practice.

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Re: cost of a pup

Post by bustingcover » Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:33 am

cjhills wrote: I refuse to risk the life of my females to sell somebody a $400 puppy. It just makes no sense.
As far as the "cost of a puppy" topic goes this is one of the biggest reasons the price is high. Its not just you I've heard it from others and its something I just never understood. If I was ever afraid to risk the life of my female I just wouldn't breed her. If $400 a pup isn't worth the life of a bitch then how much is exactly. I have never done a breeding with the thought that I need to make a certain amount of money for it to be "worth it". Its more important that the dogs get into honest homes that will use them.

Another has been "breeding dogs is expensive when done right" or "its a rare breed and so on". I will agree that breeding dogs can be costly and with certain breeds you have to go above and beyond to get quality breedings done. But at the end of the day you don't HAVE to breed dogs, if I can't afford todo something I just don't do it. free-$500 is what I believe is an honest price for a couple pounds of pups thats done nothing yet but been born. People are free todo what they want but I am among the camp that doesn't understand why pay thousands of dollars for something if you don't have to. Breeders looking to make a buck or "recoup their losses" will sell at whatever the market dictates because at the end of the day they want that litter gone.

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Re: cost of a pup

Post by birddogger2 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:16 am

Guys -

Just to set the record straight and avoid FURTHER misconceptions and misinformation, the two pups I mentioned in my previous post, both came my way as a result of my involvement with field trials. I wanted a pup to develop as a field trial dog. The folks I bought from wanted their pups to go to owners who would give them an opportunity to succeed in that arena.

In point of fact, the $400 pup was the pick of the litter and the owner wanted me to take not one, but two pups, for the same $400, because he knew that both dogs would get a fair shot at becoming the best they could be. He also knew that at least one of the dogs would eventually be in the hands of his trainer for campaigning on the major Shooting dog circuit...if it turned out to be a competitor.

To some folks, money in hand is less important than opportunity. I have, and will continue, to honor that commitment to provide the dogs with that opportunity to succeed.

I have said on several occasions that I do not breed dogs, principally because I can usually buy a better bred dog than I can breed myself. That is still true.

And as far as this statement goes:

"I never put down your dogs or bragged up mine."

Let's just say my reading comprehension skills ain't what they used to be...but they are not so diminished that I cannot determine that statement to be false. It is more like the word "never" should be replaced by "almost always".

But then salesmen have to sell what they have, even to themselves.

Carry on.

RayG

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Re: cost of a pup

Post by Featherfinder » Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:34 am

CJ, the reason you sell your dogs for more than $400 is because you have folk that are willing to pay it, not because it is a reflection of the caliber of dogs you produce. If in general, folk weren't paying more than $300 for a decent GSP, neither would you OR, you'd own a lot of GSPs. Here is a good example and I quote: "A Braque Francais will run $1600 to $1900 right now with some breeders having a 2 year/20 person wait list...." That tells me absolutely nothing about breed competency but a great deal about "the market". A similar market is on waiting lists for $3500 designer dogs! ????....what can I say?
If folk are happy with GSPs, so am I. You see, here is where you might be misinterpreting me. I don't believe you and some other folk should own pointers. It doesn't change the facts. I concede that you may be producing high class dogs for GSPs, although I would need to see that/judge them to see if they fall into my definition of "high class".
Further-more, there are many GSPs that hold a VERY close resemblance to pointers but that's because they were interbred with pointers. I wonder why? :wink:
While there is something for everyone, "I" need a functionally high class bird dog to grace my memories afield. We could start a new thread on the various definitions of the term, "high class", but I digress.
Going to an AA field trial to watch pointers run off horseback does not make a casual hunter-observer knowledgeable. Nor does having a friend(s) with unruly, out-of-control pointers make you a knowledgeable person about the breed. By-the-way, pointers do not have the buy on being unruly, renegades.
Once you have had your palate whetted, there is no going back. My only regret is that I did not make the upgrade 30+ years ago.
In summary, you could conclude one undisputable fact while staying within the title of this post: Some dogs cost more but not because they are better. The question remains, "....but why?"

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Re: cost of a pup

Post by SHaRPS » Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:53 pm

Name something good these days where the price has dropped.... Everything goes up in cost (Dog food, Vet visits, shots, etc.) and so does the price of a dog.

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Re: cost of a pup

Post by Sharon » Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:42 pm

[quote="cjhills"]Ray
Changing your name didn't change your attitude..........................................................."

As I've told you before, Ray did not change his name. He always signs his name. His thread name became unusable, due to a forum glitch, so he had to change that. Please don't bring this up again. Thank you.

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Re: cost of a pup

Post by cjhills » Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:32 pm

Sharon wrote:
cjhills wrote:Ray
Changing your name didn't change your attitude..........................................................."

As I've told you before, Ray did not change his name. He always signs his name. His thread name became unusable, due to a forum glitch, so he had to change that. Please don't bring this up again. Thank you.
Thank you, but I really think PMs should remain private.....Cj

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BFstl
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Re: cost of a pup

Post by BFstl » Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:58 pm

Featherfinder wrote:CJ, the reason you sell your dogs for more than $400 is because you have folk that are willing to pay it, not because it is a reflection of the caliber of dogs you produce. If in general, folk weren't paying more than $300 for a decent GSP, neither would you OR, you'd own a lot of GSPs. Here is a good example and I quote: "A Braque Francais will run $1600 to $1900 right now with some breeders having a 2 year/20 person wait list...." That tells me absolutely nothing about breed competency but a great deal about "the market". A similar market is on waiting lists for $3500 designer dogs! ????....what can I say?
If folk are happy with GSPs, so am I. You see, here is where you might be misinterpreting me. I don't believe you and some other folk should own pointers. It doesn't change the facts. I concede that you may be producing high class dogs for GSPs, although I would need to see that/judge them to see if they fall into my definition of "high class".
Further-more, there are many GSPs that hold a VERY close resemblance to pointers but that's because they were interbred with pointers. I wonder why? :wink:
While there is something for everyone, "I" need a functionally high class bird dog to grace my memories afield. We could start a new thread on the various definitions of the term, "high class", but I digress.
Going to an AA field trial to watch pointers run off horseback does not make a casual hunter-observer knowledgeable. Nor does having a friend(s) with unruly, out-of-control pointers make you a knowledgeable person about the breed. By-the-way, pointers do not have the buy on being unruly, renegades.
Once you have had your palate whetted, there is no going back. My only regret is that I did not make the upgrade 30+ years ago.
In summary, you could conclude one undisputable fact while staying within the title of this post: Some dogs cost more but not because they are better. The question remains, "....but why?"
A lot of truth here, a pup will only bring what the market is willing to pay and just because a pup is higher priced does not guarantee you will get a better dog. With that being said, a good proven pedigree will will increase your chances of having a pup that is a good natural hunter. I'm sure some of the attraction to the Braque Francais (English name is actually a French Pointer - but its appearance resembles a GSP) is that it is a rare gundog (even though it dates back to the 1500) and also that they have a softer temperament (which also means you will need to using a softer hand while training). While most BF breeders will only sell to hunting homes, but I know they get quite a few inquires for non-hunting homes. I guess a $1600 BF is cheaper than a $3500 designer dog?

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Re: cost of a pup

Post by slistoe » Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:17 pm

cjhills wrote:
Sharon wrote:
cjhills wrote:Ray
Changing your name didn't change your attitude..........................................................."

As I've told you before, Ray did not change his name. He always signs his name. His thread name became unusable, due to a forum glitch, so he had to change that. Please don't bring this up again. Thank you.
Thank you, but I really think PMs should remain private.....Cj
Looked like a post in a thread to me.......

Thanks for the explanation Sharon - I kinda wondered what prompted the change of handle.

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Re: cost of a pup

Post by polmaise » Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:18 pm

Initial cost of a pup is academic and numeric to the purchaser and the seller.
A $1:00 pup means the world to some owners.
If the original post topic 'Cost of a pup' was - How much would You spend on a Pup the price would be according to your cloth .
...
Seen numerous spend thousands on a 'Wanna must have' breeding that couldn't train a budgie to sit on a perch.
Marketing is clever
People just buy in to it .

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Re: cost of a pup

Post by cjhills » Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:34 pm

FF: I think you are getting it price of a pup as with everything is market driven. I asked early on if it was a marketing issue with pointers.
I will tell you again in 55 years of upland bird hunting in all the midwest states and Canada at least 100 days a year I have seen one pointer in the field, in the campgrounds and the motels. I don't remember any English setters except one I had because he was gunshy and my Bo puppy that I bought for $330. They ended up shooting the gunshy dog because he attacked a BobCat operator in a dispute over the drivers seat. The Bo puppy was nice but I gave him away because he did not want to do things my way. He turned out alright.
Now you and Ray may be right that pointers are the King of the bird dog world but nobody else will ever know because we never see them. I have seen a few at trials but that does not show mean a lot to me or the average puppy buyer. Most new buyers are not going to trials and if they do they are not going to buy the pups from the dogs they see. Most puppy buyers would be very intimidated by seeing their 4 month old puppy 300 yds away and going and they should be. Then they will be on forums like this wanting to know what to do.
The thing is if you are going to find new pointer people you need to get them out where we can see them. Old buyers are pretty set in their ways and most won't change. When the new buyers around here make their first trip to the bird fields they will likely be going with one of the breeds I mentioned. They will not be coming home and telling their family "I really Want a pointer or a Setter".
Most puppy buyers are looking for a family bird dog. I am not saying a pointer can't do that. I have no idea. I never see what they do. I do know that GSPs, Brittneys, Labs, Springers, Goldens and Probably a few others are very good at that. That Is why they take up most of the market. I know a world class Springer breeder that has been in business for fifty years who gets $2200 for a puppy and you will wait for a year or more to get one. I don't know if they are worth it but my grandson who has one thinks they are.

We have several trials in Minnesota and Wisconsin. We would be happy to see some longtailed dogs there. You would be welcome to show us how good they are
You would likely have to give up your identity, but you shouldn't have a problem with that. we will be looking for you and as always BRING YOUR BEST DOGS. Maybe I will buy one of your puppies
One other point on R's $400 and $600 dollar puppies who pays the $1000s of dollars to campaign them. I guess I will never understand why anybody would buy a puppy that somebody else bred and pay somebody to train it and campaign it, to get a title that is basically worth nothing accept bragging rights.
I have trainers offer me that deal all the time. I just don't get that. But I am a hands on person and I like the challenge. Plus I don't have much money. But there again whatever floats your boat

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Re: cost of a pup

Post by birddogger2 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:39 pm

BFstl wrote:
A lot of truth here, a pup will only bring what the market is willing to pay and just because a pup is higher priced does not guarantee you will get a better dog. With that being said, a good proven pedigree will will increase your chances of having a pup that is a good natural hunter. I'm sure some of the attraction to the Braque Francais (English name is actually a French Pointer - but its appearance resembles a GSP) is that it is a rare gundog (even though it dates back to the 1500) and also that they have a softer temperament (which also means you will need to using a softer hand while training). While most BF breeders will only sell to hunting homes, but I know they get quite a few inquires for non-hunting homes. I guess a $1600 BF is cheaper than a $3500 designer dog?

FWIW I only say one Braque. I believe it was a Braque Francais, but it might have been a Braque D'Auvergne. It was about ten years ago. The dog was an excellent hunter, great application, choke bore nose and was handy without being underfoot. It also had a very close attachment to its owner. It was patently obviousthat they were a team. Simply a VERY nice bird dog that many would have been proud to foot hunt behind. Not what I would be looking for in a bird dog...but a very NICE dog for certain.

The cost of the pup is just the beginning.
As some have said, on the many occasions where cost of bird dogs has been discussed...if you get a pup that grows into the kind of dog you enjoy, then it is a bargain at whatever price you paid.

RayG

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Re: cost of a pup

Post by mask » Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:58 pm

cjhills, If you really hunt in Canada and have only seen one pointer either you are sight impaired or full of it. We hunt 5 states and Canada most years and see many pointers and setters besides our own. There are brits and gsps for sure but more pointers and setters.

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Re: cost of a pup

Post by Featherfinder » Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:58 am

CJ, not sure where you hunt in the central mid-west or in Canada. Personally, I hunt both and as Mask stated, we see plenty of setters and pointers. Your comments regarding your experience with 2 setters further implies to me that they are not the breed for you. Perhaps after having GSPs for 55 years, you are subconsciously breed blind? I know I was regarding Britts, especially when I kicked butt with them in horseback pointer trials and cover (predominantly setters) trials! All that did was further impede the learning curve for me. Dang..........! Oh well, I retain fond memories which includes things like placing 2nd (not winning) in AF horseback pointer trials with a spectacular FT Ch Gordon and placing 2nd (not winning) with a Munsterlander in said cover trials. ........aaahhh the memories.
The 300 yard pointer pup you mentioned further implies that the owner of said pointer perhaps knows little about gun-dog-pointers unless he was trying to develop a trialer. In both your setter and pointer comments, one could extract that the owners of the dogs you mentioned did not have a good grasp of how to nurture/develop these super-dogs to become competent gentleman's/ladies gun dogs.
If you re-read my posts, it tells you volumes about the OP's initial post. That said, I do appreciate you conveying your position as you are obviously experienced in GSPs. Most importantly, I'm sure there are many that albeit silently, support your views. That is precisely why this is a good medium for dispelling some of those myths/misunderstandings surrounding pointers/setters. For that, I thank you CJ.

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