cost of a pup

[Urban_Redneck]

Price of a pup is/ought to be an expression of risk of not getting what you desire or what the breeder is selling. All else being equal, if your desire is a CH AA pointer, sire and dam pedigrees stacked with 30 champions reduces the risk of not getting a champion and the price goes up. Yet, out of a litter of 10 pups the chance of getting a Field CH is still much less than one in ten. Many Great hunting dogs are produced but, the verified performance bar is so high, they sell relatively cheap.

Contrast with a GSP or Brit breeder that consistently produces pups that deliver on the promised standard of "great hunting dogs" the odds of getting the desired exceptional dog drops to 2:5 .

Contrast with a "minority" breed where the promise of exclusivity is intrinsic, added to 2:5 odds of
"great versatile hunting dog" and you have the three tiers of puppy prices.

The desired return may vary, but, it's all... Return to Risk.

My $0.02

[cjhills]

FF
Thank you. You are confirming my point. Why would a beginner know anything about big running dogs and why would he not be intimidated by them? Why would he know anything about field trials? Why would he want to? You need to bring in new blood. That is marketing. Send me your pedigrees. Send me a pup. let me see them.
This thread is not about the merits of the dogs, it is about the price of a pup. The average new pointing dog puppy buyer could not care about a 12 o'clock tail or how far and fast the dog runs. that is all an acquired taste that comes with experience.
I will assure you that I have had and still do have GSPs that are not ground sniffing plodders (your words) and I like big running, stylish dogs as much as anybody.
Most of my original dogs game from one line which had many hall of fame dogs. Probably the closest I came to owning a pointer. The outcrossing improved both breeds. PJ comes to mind.
But you need to realize there is not a lot of demand for them. That is what drives the prices down.
If you drew a 500 mile radius circle from my house you would have the best upland bird hunting in the USA in that circle. I have walked over a good share of it. Not
many pointers in that circle. We just do not see them. We want to.
Again show us your dogs on the ground. We need to know your name and see the pedigrees of these great dogs. Perhaps even buy one. A few photoshopped pictures do not mean a lot.
Thanks for your time have a nice....................Cj

[MNTonester]

CJ, I always enjoy your reasoned, logical responses. This has been an interesting thread

[JONOV]

Talk about a urinary olympiad...

Almost any working or hunting breed, can be mismatched to its owner, from Border Collies to Jack Russel Terriers to GSP's...Some dogs have reputations they don't deserve, some deserve a reputation they don't have...

The relative merits or suitability of a dog seem to have little to do with its market demand. Anyone that's seen a $3,000 Goldendoodle has to acknowledge that. Reputation and Chic-ness have everything to do with it, facts be "bleep". Anyone that's pulled hair off their pants from a supposedly non-shedding hypoallergenic $3000 Goldendoodle should be able to see that too.

Pointers, more than anything else, do seem to suffer from what I'm going to assume are unfair assumptions. I refuse to believe that they aren't clean, decent house pets if you take them as puppies and raise them like any other dog in the house. But, since so many live in outdoor kennels as part of a string of dogs, and if bored living in a kennel run they do things like fingerpaint, they get a reputation as dogs that can't live inside, are aloof, whatever.

Are they more heat tolerant, have more bottom, etc, than about any other breed? I have a hard time arguing that point as well. I'll concede, for the sake of the argument, that Pointers cover more ground more efficiently and have a better nose and will point from farther off and are easier to steady.

Will 95% of hunters kill more birds with a Pointer/Setter? That I'm not so sure of.

One other thing that many people are missing: what goes into the buying process for many of us, and that's the spouse in a married couple that's buying a pet for the house/family. That's probably a majority of hunting dog buyers. Do not underestimate the spouse's influence in this decision. "XYZ Breed is too wild. I'm not having one." And since said spouse isn't the one that really wants the bird dog, she isn't going to be bothered researching or talking to breeders or being convinced otherwise.

Of course, the rarer a breed, the more expensive, if only because its human nature to want something uniquely yours. Some guys are like that with Shotguns, some with a classic car, some with their dog, some with their antiques...

[shags]

This thread is not about the merits of the dogs, it is about the price of a pup. The average new pointing dog puppy buyer could not care about a 12 o'clock tail or how far and fast the dog runs. that is all an acquired taste that comes with experience.

Yeah, in a way it is about the merits of the dogs, because that's part of marketing.

Would a breeder showing dogs to a new pointing dog puppy buyer say " See how he stands there on point looking like a sack of potatoes" or "See how he stands on point, high and tight and intense" to justify the price tag? Ground speed and range, likewise, although both slower/short and fast/far can be viewed and marketed as either positives or negatives. So the seller markets accordingly.

Granted, a breeder selling to a newbie could convince him that a sack o' taters looking point is desirable. That's marketing too.

I think in all but the rare pointing breeds, there is enough intrabreed variation in "merit" to accomodate just about any buyer. Pricing is what the market will bear. I'm way happy that pups of the best, most beautiful, most wonderful, breed in the entire galaxy can still be had for 3-digit$

[JONOV]

This thread is not about the merits of the dogs, it is about the price of a pup. The average new pointing dog puppy buyer could not care about a 12 o'clock tail or how far and fast the dog runs. that is all an acquired taste that comes with experience.

Yeah, in a way it is about the merits of the dogs, because that's part of marketing.

Good point. Dogs aren't traded like Porkbellies.

Sell the sizzle, not the steak.

People will pony up the $$$ if they think a breeding or breed is the best solution.

[Featherfinder]

I sincerely feel privileged to be a part of this forum! There have been some AMAZING posts throughout this entire thread! Great stuff by so many....
Newbies are very fortunate to have this medium to expand their general understanding of our many bird dog breeds. I wish this was available in my embryonic bird dog years. I would have started out with a pointer or setter!
CJ, forgive me but that's twice now that you say I called your dogs ground sniffing plodders. It just doesn't sound like my normal position on these things in general but if I did call your personal dogs anything like that, I sincerely and publically apologize. While we all have our own opinions, there is NO reason to attack anyone on a personal level - less-so their dogs! Did you perhaps embrace a broad-brush comment (non-breed-specific) to be directed at your dogs? I gleaned back but didn't find said comment. It's possible so, in the event that I did....my apologies Sir.

[Featherfinder]

Urban_Redneck, you make an interesting point. The versatiles are supposed to do much more than be great companions, find, point and retrieve birds.
I don't ask my dogs to be generalists. All I personally do is bird hunt with mine. As such, I expect a VERY high level of performance within this demand. Perhaps that is why I see pointers/setters as superior?
As such, I believe the value in a very high class pointer/setter is a STEAL in terms of acquistion cost!

[polmaise]

Who is on First Base ?

[shags]

Andrelton Simmons, after his bunt broke up Corey Kluber's no hitter

[polmaise]

Al way's nice to have a Ramirez in the field !
Keeps the cost of Pups at an affordable level and a level playing field for the Young ones new to the game .

[Urban_Redneck]

Urban_Redneck, you make an interesting point. The versatiles are supposed to do much more than be great companions, find, point and retrieve birds.
I don't ask my dogs to be generalists. All I personally do is bird hunt with mine. As such, I expect a VERY high level of performance within this demand. Perhaps that is why I see pointers/setters as superior?
As such, I believe the value in a very high class pointer/setter is a STEAL in terms of acquistion cost!

Puppynomics is not which breed is a better bird dog. It's a function of return to risk, expectation vs result , The demand for a trial winning dog vs. the high risk of getting a pup that can't make that bar. The supply of "poor trial prospects" and other pups that will not be campaigned provide a large supply of great hunting pointers. Low price (relative to great quality) is a reflection of (over) supply.

I agree, it appears that it's never been easier or cheaper to find a great hunting pointer.

[Featherfinder]

Well said U_R. That would explain it for the most part. Perhaps the more rare breeds are an exclusion but GSPs, Britts, etc. have breed specific trial dogs too though, right?

[averageguy]

So after a poor first experience posting I have resorted to Lurking since. Going to wander back in the waters again. Might regret it, but no biggie if I do.

My chosen breed is NAVHDA registered GWPs. My dogs are huge in my life and the initial cost of acquisition is nearly meaningless in the scheme of overall cost of ownership, birds, training equipment, travel, hotel, licenses, driving to Canada, 6 states and ending up in Texas in Feb, hunting wild birds. I want a puppy from a litter that has a long line of dogs with demonstrated genetics for Point, Track and Retrieve, good serviceable coats and conformation, mentally sound, and health screened for good hips and thyroid at a minimum. The market has gone gaga for Hunt tests and that is fine, but I work with Breeders who live in wild bird country and make their breeding determinations based on the dogs performance on wild birds as the primary go or no go for breeding. They also test their dogs because the Market seems to demand it these days and it provides feedback on puppies shipped to new owners the breeder may never get to see work.

To get that it seems the market price for my chosen breed is $1200 to $1500 for 9-10 week old puppy, so I pay it. My current pup is breeding restricted until minimum hunt tests and health screenings are completed, and I am fine with that. My Pup's Breeder has become a friend and I greatly appreciate his dedicated efforts and product over the last 20 years leading up to today. I appreciate the task of breeding a Versatile breed with multiple skill sets is a challenging pursuit, and the fact he screens out a lot dogs of his own breeding, and others, as unsuitable for breeding, (while still being a very nice hunting dog). That means he will have invested a good deal of time and money in a dog which he ultimately decides not to breed 2 years down the road. Which seems like a legitimate factor in pricing in my view.

It was posted that NAVHDA was a test ground for plodders. It is true a plodder can receive a passing score in a NAVHDA test but there is no causal genetic link between the two. I have seen plenty of nice high drive active search dogs testing in NAVHDA, including my own. It is a good reason however to get your own eyes on the dogs vs relying on test scores. And I do.

As to individuals chosen breeds. My first thought is if you see only one breed of dog in the world for you, then you do not get around enough. Annually I hunt with EPs, Setters, GWPs, GSPs, Labs, Hounds, Curs, Beagles, Terriers. Would love to own a good one of each but I no longer have enough legs to hunt all day and night too. So I hunt my own dogs a great deal and hunt with excellent dogs of different breeds owned by others as well.

I have owned just one EP, but have been treated to hunt with numerous excellent EPs owned by others. The best ones are awesome animals when open country Upland birds is the agenda of the day.

But my annual and sometimes daily hunting agenda includes a great deal more than just upland birds and that is why I hunt behind GWPs. A versatile hunter is wise to chose a versatile breed. A specialist will enjoy a specialist more.

I see EPs which were not developed to retrieve at all and don't. And I see those that do credible work recovering birds shot over their points. The single one I owned did a nice job hunting dead and retrieving to my feet. But anyone who cannot concede the superiority of several Versatile breeds in after the shot performance vs the average EP or Setter, is breed blind.

Our best days hunting waterfowl come in the late season brutal late winter conditions hunting on iced up swift running rivers. We have some high volume days. A breed with high odds to perform under those conditions is for the best. That includes a decent undercoat.





I archery hunt for big game annually. Having blood tracking skills in the tool kit is another driver in my breed choice.



Hunt for Sheds in March each year and canine assistance is welcomed.



And I like style and hard going search in my dogs. This dog adjusts to cover very well. Will generally be within 75 yards in a thick cattail slough hunting late season roosters, generally within 100 yards in tall warm season grass CRP, moves out at times over 200 yards in brushy country hunting Bobwhites and got out over 500 yards while hunting Prairie Chickens in wheat stubble this past season. He hits it hard, finds and points alot of birds. He was not the high dog on our 2018 trip to Texas in Feb, but he was far from last for finds while hunting with a pro string of EPs on that trip.

Seemed like this thread and some others needs some different points of view at times and I have some.

[JONOV]

Well said U_R. That would explain it for the most part. Perhaps the more rare breeds are an exclusion but GSPs, Britts, etc. have breed specific trial dogs too though, right?

They do, but around here at least if you got to a field trial it is a rare continental breed that runs. Even in the handful of walking trials I've been to around here its been 95% pointers and setters.

I don't know why this has turned into so much stone slinging. People charge what they can for their dogs. End of discussion.

I've met a few wealthy dog breeders, but none that have gotten wealthy breeding dogs.

Its perfectly fair to ask why one GWP cost $800 and another GWP costs $1200 (or GSP or Setter, it doesn't matter.) You need not apologize for not placing value on the performance of the dogs on the pedigree, the health testing, etc...But don't complain if there are nine other buyers behind you with the deposit in hand.

[Steve007]

So after a poor first experience posting I have resorted to Lurking since. Going to wander back in the waters again. Might regret it, but no biggie if I do.
Seemed like this thread and some others needs some different points of view at times and I have some.

Excellent-looking dog in many venues, averageguy. You may be average, but your dog is not. And as you're a team, that makes you above average!

[mask]

Hey Average. That is a great looking dog that goes way beyond versatile. Good for you and your dogs. Really enjoyed the photos. Great buck by the way.

[averageguy]

Thank you Gentlemen.

[birddogger2]

Average -

From what I can see, that ain't no AVERAGE dog you have there. Nice looking animal.

Also, FWIW, I have had my clock cleaned at a horseback Gun Dog stake by a Wire. My pointer(who already had a bunch of placements in AF and AKC) did a great job that day... and got beat by a dog that did it better.

I also belong to a local Navhda chapter an it has a wide variety of bird dogs...Vizsak, DD's Wires, GSPs and Weims.

I have seen a fair number of them in the field and... They ain't plodders...not by a long shot. There was one V that I pleaded with the owner to let me help her work and run her dog in field trials. He could run with any shooting dog out there.

I firmly believe there is a WIDE range of talents and abilities in the pointing dog world..especially among the "big 4", the Pointer, E. Setter, Brittany and GSP. Folks should be able to find whatever they are looking for in each one of those breeds without going to extremes in their search.

Some of the "less popular" pointing breeds might take some more looking, but that doesn't mean they don't have what one is looking for in a bird dog.

RayG

[averageguy]

Thank you Ray, Appreciate it. No doubt there are nice dogs in just about all breeds. Just have to find the right fit.

This pup just turned 2. We trained hard last summer and he passed his UT Prize 1 at 18 months. We are working on rudimentary blind retrieve handling skills now and I will also do more work on more difficult blood tracking before next season. I am holding off on getting another pup until I get some more development/training accomplished on this one. After that an EP to compliment him when hunting prairie grouse, quail, huns (particularly in the heat), would be fun and advantageous...

[gundogguy]

Ray that breeder has since stopped due to family health issues. I already tried that. Yes I am aware of backyard breeders and craigslist and backpage and all that. I was just simply curious about the cost was all. Maybe I got very lucky before with my previous purchases. I understand about good breeders and the differences vs bad ones. Meant no offense to anyone so sorry to those who it offended. Thanks for the help guys

Mav -

I would say that you did in fact, get lucky with your previous puppy purchases. Shorthairs and Brittanys, as well as setters of any stripe tend to be pricier, as puppies when compared to pointers. Always were. You can still get a very well bred pointer for well under $800. I did just that two years ago. But if you want a pup from one of the other popular pointing dog breeds...it is going to cost more. If you want a well bred dog from one of the minority breeds of pointing dogs, it can get quite pricey I am told.

There is no question in my mind that the numbers of upland birds and the places to hunt them is in decline across the USA. Vast swaths of the US east of the Missisippi that once teemed with wild birds are now virtually devoid of upland birds. With fewer and fewer birds available to hunt, the numbers of bird hunters follows in decline. In states like NJ, NY, PA, CT MA, if it were not for state stockings of pheasant...there simply would not be any to hunt. In most of those states, if it were not for the population of grouse, there would be little in the way of upland birds to pursue.

Sadly, that scenario is becoming a reality in the southeast as well, it seems.

As the numbers of bird hunters declines, so too do the numbers of breeders of bird doggers that breed for their own usage and that of friends and family. This lack of supply inevitably drives up the price of hunting pups.

If you are looking for a shorthair or a Brittany to hunt over, I suggest you contact several field trial breeders and tell them what you are looking for. Fairly often, these field trailers will have several dogs in various stages of development. Typically a field trialer wants a dog with a high degree of independence and drive, with great stamina, great style that looks good moving. Only a very few dogs check off all of the boxes. Folks can only keep so many dogs, so a youngster that does not show the highest level of independence and range(which you probably don't need or want anyway), might be available.

Good luck finding a new hunting partner.

Most of the field trialers I know are quite pleased when youngsters who do not make the grade as competitive dogs end up in hunting homes. They know they will get to do what they were born and bred for.

RayG

Right-on! RayG
Supply and demand Personally I see very little demand!

[Featherfinder]

That is a very nice looking dog Average Guy!
His eyes tell me a lot. Seems like a dog that lives to please you. Congrats!