e-collar in Britain

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Trekmoor
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e-collar in Britain

Post by Trekmoor » Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:43 am

There was an e-collar debate on a British radio channel this morning. I missed it but a gundog trainer from S.Africa posted in to another forum to say that our ignorance on this subject is astonishing. The collar has already been banned in Wales and is in the process of being banned here in Scotland. It looks very like this ban will soon cover all of Britain.

I can only agree with the S.African about our ignorance on the subject but we will not become knowledgeable by banning it without ever getting a chance to see it being used in action by people who really know how to use one properly. All we ever hear is how cruel it is.....so the politicians vote to suit how many votes they will get from an ignorant general public.

I have an e-collar but use it only on dogs that are a bit too keen on chasing sheep. Like just about everyone else in this country I am ignorant on it's use but at least I know that it does not have to be used "cruelly." My own collar has been unused for so many years I doubt if it would still work ! I am far too old to run out and catch a sheep chasing dog now .....think I'll ask a politician to do that for me ! :twisted:

Bill T.

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crackerd
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Re: e-collar in Britain

Post by crackerd » Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:22 am

Bill, my a cappella mate the S'African is singing a pretty good song :mrgreen: for a pointer person who doesn't understand (doesn't want to understand) that retriever trainers use the e-collar as integral to a training program - not as a preventive device. Like, say, Our Man Frank describes in his e-collar cri di coeur about stopping dogs in their tracks from eating...stuff.

MG

Timewise65
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Re: e-collar in Britain

Post by Timewise65 » Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:44 am

An e-collar, when PROPERLY used, only stimulates a dog that is disobeying a command that he/she already has learned! Using it on a dog that has not already been trained to specific behaviors, will likely ruin a good dog. The level of stimulation is never enough to provoke a 'jerk' or worse yet a ''yelp' from a dog. My dogs will usually , 'look around' when I have to use the collar.

Misuse of these training implements is far to common! As is ignorance of how they are to be used... :(

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crackerd
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Re: e-collar in Britain

Post by crackerd » Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:58 am

Timewise65 wrote:An e-collar, when PROPERLY used, only stimulates a dog that is disobeying a command that he/she already has learned!
Timewise, with all due respect for your prior experience with retrievers, that ain't how the e-collar is used in contemporary programs. 'Cause stimulation for disobedience ain't the MO for indirect pressure and how it "works" with retrievers.

MG

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Re: e-collar in Britain

Post by polmaise » Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:40 pm

crackerd wrote: Timewise, with all due respect for your prior experience with retrievers, that ain't how the e-collar is used in contemporary programs. 'Cause stimulation for disobedience ain't the MO for indirect pressure and how it "works" with retrievers.

MG
Or any other ! :wink:
Perhaps some should look further than their backyard . (check out the e-collar on this dog...In Scotland!)
This little one was cc and ff right here in the blighty ..good god almighty !
Previous rap sheet was notorious 'Bog off' ..when I say 'Bog off' I don't just mean run away for a bit ..I mean ..Run over a mountain and not come back or be found after a day !!. Allowed the opportunity to chase/catch and eat game or anything else in it's path ! ..Point blank refused to pick up a dummy/bumper ! ..well would You if you have had better?
But, a program with the collar for this one was Not to stop it doing these things ,like an aversion sheep chaser 'Trash break' !
We shaped some new behaviour :wink:
Too many can't use their own Tool in the UK , never mind any other. (I imagine it's much the same across the pond , but You guys have a program or programs to help )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPYR8p8HxEc

Timewise65
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Re: e-collar in Britain

Post by Timewise65 » Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:27 am

crackerd wrote:
Timewise65 wrote:An e-collar, when PROPERLY used, only stimulates a dog that is disobeying a command that he/she already has learned!
Timewise, with all due respect for your prior experience with retrievers, that ain't how the e-collar is used in contemporary programs. 'Cause stimulation for disobedience ain't the MO for indirect pressure and how it "works" with retrievers.

MG
crackerd...All due respect, back at you.....You make it sound like it is one (direct pressure) or the other (indirect pressure) most modern trainers use both...or shall we agree to disagree?

Direct pressure - "sit", dog does not sit, "sit" nick "sit". Direct use of collar for the infraction.

Indirect pressure - Left over cast, dog refuses or casts wrong, "sit" nick "sit", recast.

Indirect pressure is correcting or forcing on one command(usually a well known one) to improve the performance on another.

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NEhomer
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Re: e-collar in Britain

Post by NEhomer » Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:44 am

Not to mention that for an experienced dog, a little nip with the vibration button and you get their attention just fine.


It seems that voting away behaviors for others that you don't engage in has become too common all around the globe.

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CDN_Cocker
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Re: e-collar in Britain

Post by CDN_Cocker » Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:35 am

polmaise wrote: Or any other ! :wink:
Perhaps some should look further than their backyard . (check out the e-collar on this dog...In Scotland!)
This little one was cc and ff right here in the blighty ..good god almighty !
Previous rap sheet was notorious 'Bog off' ..when I say 'Bog off' I don't just mean run away for a bit ..I mean ..Run over a mountain and not come back or be found after a day !!. Allowed the opportunity to chase/catch and eat game or anything else in it's path ! ..Point blank refused to pick up a dummy/bumper ! ..well would You if you have had better?
But, a program with the collar for this one was Not to stop it doing these things ,like an aversion sheep chaser 'Trash break' !
We shaped some new behaviour :wink:
Too many can't use their own Tool in the UK , never mind any other. (I imagine it's much the same across the pond , but You guys have a program or programs to help )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPYR8p8HxEc

The camera work made me a bit dizzy particularly at the start but that's a sharp looking cocker! And I might say... still full of flash and happy! The horror!

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crackerd
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Re: e-collar in Britain

Post by crackerd » Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:04 pm

Timewise65 wrote:crackerd...All due respect, back at you.....You make it sound like it is one (direct pressure) or the other (indirect pressure) most modern trainers use both...or shall we agree to disagree?

Direct pressure - "sit", dog does not sit, "sit" nick "sit". Direct use of collar for the infraction.

Indirect pressure - Left over cast, dog refuses or casts wrong, "sit" nick "sit", recast.

Indirect pressure is correcting or forcing on one command(usually a well known one) to improve the performance on another.
Yes, we agree that modern retriever trainers use both direct and indirect pressure, but you can't have it both ways as above.

True, we use direct pressure when forcing to pile, forcing on overs, on swimby, and most consequently ahead of swimby, water forcing.

But if you use direct pressure (quoting you: "Sit", dog does not sit, "sit" nick "sit". Direct use of collar for the infraction.") to try and get a retriever to come to a complete and sudden stop when running pell mell, instead of that happening, the stimulation's just going to spur the dog to drive on even faster in 98.6 of every 100 instances. You probably know that sit-nick-sit is used primarily in the basics - sometimes even with the dog on lead, so that a hands'-on correction can be made if necessary.

In any event, once a dog's transitioned through yard work, direct pressure is all but never used at the high end (All-Age) of retriever training. Admittedly, I've seen a number of hunt test dogs even at master level whose body language has demonstrated "the effects" of direct pressure use into adulthood, and it ain't a pretty sight.

MG

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Re: e-collar in Britain

Post by polmaise » Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:07 pm

CDN_Cocker wrote:
The camera work made me a bit dizzy particularly at the start but that's a sharp looking cocker! And I might say... still full of flash and happy! The horror!
lol..even dizzier in real life !
If you knew all the history ,it would even surprise You :wink: .
The Training wasn't easy ...!
The process was simple , but then It always looks like that in the brochures .

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