Non gundog related (Belgian Malinois)

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magspa
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Non gundog related (Belgian Malinois)

Post by magspa » Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:12 am

I agreed to home a Belgian Malinois from a lady down the road. SHe is keeping her for her son and daughter in law because they cant handle it. She is spayed and just turned 1. She mentioned she went to some trainer for $800 and her son was using the ecollar to make her kennel. I have seen her around the neighborhood and seems to listen fairly well. My concern is her son ruined her with the ecollar. Of course I wont be hunting the dog but would like to train her with the ecollar. Any tips for this if she has been improperly trained with one. I like to train my dogs to "come" to the beep on my tritronics and have a feeling he was using the beep as a pre-nick warning. I have a trained my last 3 GSPs for hunting (ecollar, steady to flush, and force fetched my last one) but never a non hunting dog. thanks in advance.
Last edited by magspa on Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Non gundog related (Belgian Malinois)

Post by shags » Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:45 am

Any possibility you can talk with the trainer and/or the original owner to find out what kind of training the dog had?

I've had two dogs which had unfortunate experiences with an ecollar. One was a rescue and wouldn't come when called at times - she'd bolt. IDK what happened with her, but she would run right through any level of stimulation. With some yard work we got to where she would respond to a nick on 2 or 3 and recall. I never trusted her without a collar if I was on foot; most of the time she was fine, but every now and then would get a wild hair and go.

The other dog got accidentally zapped ( by me :oops: ) and shut down when I put the collar on him, but just for a couple of days. I had him wear it without even taking the transmitter out, and over those couple days he turned around. With him, I was extra special careful about levels of stim from then on, and luckily for me, we didn't need to to use the ecollar much any way.

Maybe try strapping the collar on the dog and see how she reacts. If she shakes and shivers it might be a bigger problem than not; if she doesn't seem to mind it you might be OK.

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Re: Non gundog related (Belgian Malinois)

Post by magspa » Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:54 am

I edited my original post, sorry for all the miss spelling. I meant her son was using the ecollar and her son may have really caused some problems making her kennel with it.

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Re: Non gundog related (Belgian Malinois)

Post by shags » Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:36 pm

What kind of problems? Did the guy beep and low stim nick, or beep and fry? It's hard to offer anything without knowing what's going on.

IME, my couple of dogs with ecollar issues were able to be brought back by a correct do-over. But they weren't continually fried or anything.

Good luck to you, hope the dog works out.

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Re: Non gundog related (Belgian Malinois)

Post by DougB » Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:23 pm

Try an old fashioned dog training class, without electronics. Lots of rewards and not much yelling. Makes a good night out once a week. Malinois are supposed to be smart. Slow and easy until the dog bonds and figures out what you want.

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Re: Non gundog related (Belgian Malinois)

Post by magspa » Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:09 pm

Not sure exactly what he was doing with the ecollar, this is coming from his mom. I am not going to use one on her for a while. Ill just have her wear one (turned off) in the meantime. She definitely has anxiety with a crate. Were heading out so I crated her and my GSP, She snipped at me pretty hard. She finally (barely) went in for a piece of hot dog but is going crazy. Ive always got dogs as pups so never had these problems.

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Re: Non gundog related (Belgian Malinois)

Post by Steve007 » Sat Feb 24, 2018 4:47 pm

It's hardly a secret, but if your concern is just the crate, I'd just feed her in the crate (door open)and if you can, divide up her meals so she eats in the crate three or four times a day. I'm with Dougb. Forget the collar, find a real obedience club or trainer where the instructors and members have achieved genuine advanced-level AKC titles to validate credentials and work with the dog every day, twice a day. Short sessions, praise and food. There's a lot more to a dog -- and dog hobbies and training -- than bird work and ecollars. A Malinois is a fine high-activity breed, but it's a working breed;they are well-suited to real serious obedience work. If you are too, you'll have a terrific dog eventually.

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Re: Non gundog related (Belgian Malinois)

Post by magspa » Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:08 pm

Ok thanks I'll look into an achieved trainer to learn and see get some ideas on things to work with. I guess I just don't know what to do with her. All my other dogs have learned to respect me through our steadying/retrieving training together.

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Re: Non gundog related (Belgian Malinois)

Post by Featherfinder » Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:32 pm

That's OK Mag! I would see this as an opportunity to better understand this dog and grow as a dog trainer. The best rewards come from the greatest challenges. I'd like to suggest you try to come to the table with a clean slate and read what this dog shares with you. What a great chance to add to your repertoire!
You might try some entry level search exercises - in the home first then in a contained yard, etc. This is where a clicker can really contribute to your process.
All the best Sir and please keep us posted so that we can learn with you! There is a wealth of wisdom here.
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Re: Non gundog related (Belgian Malinois)

Post by Steve007 » Sat Feb 24, 2018 6:47 pm

Go to the AKC site; Look at events. Select "obedience "and then "Texas" (if that's where you are) .See if there's a trial close to you, and go. Don't take dog, but take wife and older kids (if any).

https://www.apps.akc.org/apps/event_calendar/

You'll also find at site member AKC obedience clubs, though there are plenty of top obedience trainers not affiliated with clubs. Titles you want to see from instructors are CDX,UD, UDX and (rarely) OTCH. If they say they are "force free" or "behavioral" at the club website, don't call.

The AKC gets a bum rap from the uninformed who associate it only with conformation (dog shows).A Malinois is a genuine topflight working dog and serious obedience work is the way to bring out their best qualities. It's a terrific sport, but even if you never put a title on the dog (and you never know where an interest will take you), it's a very gratifying thing to have a well-trained dog. This is how you do it.

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Re: Non gundog related (Belgian Malinois)

Post by shags » Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:21 pm

If you're into something different, maybe schutzhund training would interest you. Not an akc thing, but you can do a google search for clubs.

Leerburg is a terrific resource for dogs training and problem dogs.
http://leerburg.com/training-articles.h ... s_05022017

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Re: Non gundog related (Belgian Malinois)

Post by magspa » Sat Feb 24, 2018 9:35 pm

Ok thanks for the resources.. I'll just work basic commands with rewards for now. We'll let her get comfortable in the house and with the kids (5&2) and GSP. This is literally the first day. She won't even go in the crate for food though so I have no choice but to force her unless someone has an idea. She is sleeping good in the bedroom now but when we aren't home she'll have to crate.

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Re: Non gundog related (Belgian Malinois)

Post by Featherfinder » Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:27 am

Does the dog like to play retrieve games? If so, incorporate the crate into your retrieve. Keep it light and unassuming. If the dog chooses not to go into the crate to retrieve the bumper/item, just casually walk away and find yourself something else to do. Later on, toss for a couple of retrieves again without then back to the crate. End if HE chooses, repeat....
Don't be surprised if he shows up with the bumper/item (albeit it a little later on) of his own volition!

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Re: Non gundog related (Belgian Malinois)

Post by magspa » Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:34 am

I've been putting treats and food in there for her to freely get. She stretches out so her rear legs are not in Kennel. We are out now so I had to force her in there which is probably going to make things worse. I got a hold off her son to meet up later and see what he was doing. She told me he was using the ecollar to make her get in. Hard to incorporate positivity into crating with her because she is so freaked out by it.

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Re: Non gundog related (Belgian Malinois)

Post by Featherfinder » Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:44 pm

It's OK.... Just give the dog a job - one with a high level expectation. That breed will flourish with stimulation.

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Re: Non gundog related (Belgian Malinois)

Post by magspa » Mon Feb 26, 2018 6:27 am

So her son finally came to the house to show me how he was working with her. Well he lifted her completely off the ground when she would not kennel with a choke collar. He said the trainer he took her would apply enough force till she almost passed out and that he needs a bamboo whip, I dont know what for. So anyway he couldnt even get this dog in a crate. After he left I went over some commands she knows enforcing with light stim from ecollar, she responded well. Then she took it like a champ when i told her to get in. I bumped the intensity and she kenneled. Lots of praise and some reps of lower intensity some with/some without stim and she was going in and out. She still freaks out when you walk away or past it but hopefully that will pass as she gets comfortable. Took her for a walk with my oldest boy and she played out front for a while with us. Lots of progress for 2 days. We may train her to be a tracking dog for wounded deer, hogs, and these Nilgai antelope we have down here that are notorious for soaking up some lead. I dont mind getting rough with dogs when they need it but I cant believe someone would train a family pup like that. Thanks for any replies.

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Re: Non gundog related (Belgian Malinois)

Post by JONOV » Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:06 pm

magspa wrote:So her son finally came to the house to show me how he was working with her. Well he lifted her completely off the ground when she would not kennel with a choke collar. He said the trainer he took her would apply enough force till she almost passed out and that he needs a bamboo whip, I dont know what for. So anyway he couldnt even get this dog in a crate. After he left I went over some commands she knows enforcing with light stim from ecollar, she responded well. Then she took it like a champ when i told her to get in. I bumped the intensity and she kenneled. Lots of praise and some reps of lower intensity some with/some without stim and she was going in and out. She still freaks out when you walk away or past it but hopefully that will pass as she gets comfortable. Took her for a walk with my oldest boy and she played out front for a while with us. Lots of progress for 2 days. We may train her to be a tracking dog for wounded deer, hogs, and these Nilgai antelope we have down here that are notorious for soaking up some lead. I dont mind getting rough with dogs when they need it but I cant believe someone would train a family pup like that. Thanks for any replies.
Its not surprising from what I've heard when it comes to training those breeds.

I've only heard of "hanging a dog up" though if it bites the handler.

They're smart, and want a job...The hard part is that they're also bred to bite.

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Re: Non gundog related (Belgian Malinois)

Post by Steve007 » Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:07 pm

JONOV wrote: Its not surprising from what I've heard when it comes to training those breeds.

I've only heard of "hanging a dog up" though if it bites the handler.

They're smart, and want a job...The hard part is that they're also bred to bite.
Hey, don't go saying bad things about the guy's dog. You'll cause him to believe it's true.. and it isn't. I compete in upper-level obedience with my wirehair, see a lot of Mals and train with their owners. They're nice dogs and perfectly friendly .They are high-activity, as are young bird dogs, and they can be protective if they have to be--but so can my wirehairs. The fact that some specifically-bred individuals of a breed can be trained after MUCH slow careful work and effort to do a certain job doesn't mean that's the way they all are automatically.

It's a very fine breed and if you treat them right, there's no reason in the world to get rough with them. While individuals vary, there is no "hard part"' to the breed unless you ignore them and don't bother to train them. But you could say the same about most larger breeds. I've known quite a few.

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Re: Non gundog related (Belgian Malinois)

Post by Featherfinder » Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:45 pm

I appreciate what you are saying. I don't understand it but....... With that in mind, I challenge you to find other methods - ways to make her WANT to go in her kennel. Turn it into a personal challenge.
Right now, I have a 15 week old pointer. She is smart but strong willed and strong...period!
I have been playing games with her head as to the crate. I wait until she can't see me or is reoccupied, then I hide a treat in the back of her crate. She periodically goes into it just to check. Sometimes, I close the gait, then say "Kennel" in an upbeat fashion and drop in another treat. She doesn't have to stay in there too long at first. I keep it unpredictable therefore it forces the pup to think it through as to whether there might be something in there.....this time. It's funny to watch her rip around then take a quick check inside the kennel.
Have you tried feeding her in over-sized crate? I'm just throwing ideas at you. That hole e-collar and hanging thing has a very limited application in my opinion. I believe you can find better ways....much better.
I have faith in you.

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Re: Non gundog related (Belgian Malinois)

Post by magspa » Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:28 pm

Featherfinder I actually have been doing those things or similar versions of now that she will actually go in. Thanks for the ideas though. And yes I have been keeping food in there. Initially she wouldn't even go in for for a treat, hotdog, etc.. I wasn't doing any hanging, that was her original owner and the trainer he sent her too. I didn't want to use the ecollar not knowing how well she was collar conditioned but had no choice because I can't leave her unsupervised. But it worked out well, its like she just had know there was no other option. Now she will go in willingly without stim but I still give her a light nick sometimes to keep her honest. I also have a 6 year old GSP in the house who makes those crate games difficult. Let's just say she hasn't had this many treats in about 5 years. We

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Re: Non gundog related (Belgian Malinois)

Post by Featherfinder » Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:19 am

Excellent Mag! Keep that train of thought. Develop your own methods specific to this dog. In doing so, you address this dog's concerns as well as making yourself a better dog owner/trainer.
Keep sharing too!

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Re: Non gundog related (Belgian Malinois)

Post by JONOV » Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:18 pm

Steve007 wrote:
JONOV wrote: Its not surprising from what I've heard when it comes to training those breeds.

I've only heard of "hanging a dog up" though if it bites the handler.

They're smart, and want a job...The hard part is that they're also bred to bite.
Hey, don't go saying bad things about the guy's dog. You'll cause him to believe it's true.. and it isn't. I compete in upper-level obedience with my wirehair, see a lot of Mals and train with their owners. They're nice dogs and perfectly friendly .They are high-activity, as are young bird dogs, and they can be protective if they have to be--but so can my wirehairs. The fact that some specifically-bred individuals of a breed can be trained after MUCH slow careful work and effort to do a certain job doesn't mean that's the way they all are automatically.

It's a very fine breed and if you treat them right, there's no reason in the world to get rough with them. While individuals vary, there is no "hard part"' to the breed unless you ignore them and don't bother to train them. But you could say the same about most larger breeds. I've known quite a few.
It's not a criticism of the dog, or the breed. They're intelligent. They're highly trainable. But there's a reason that Cops and Military use Malinois' and not GWP's for K9 work (as opposed to Narcotics Detection, Bomb Detection, etc...)

You might be able to train a GWP to bite/attack on command, if you work at it. You could train a Mal to point pheasants, if you really worked at it. But I hardly think its controversial to say that your odds of success and work required to achieve that success going to be less with one than another. And while your GWP is likely to naturally point a bunny rabbit, you might need to keep an eye on the behavior of a Mal from an early age to avoid problems. That's all.

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Re: Non gundog related (Belgian Malinois)

Post by Steve007 » Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:54 pm

JONOV wrote:[It's not a criticism of the dog, or the breed. They're intelligent. They're highly trainable. But there's a reason that Cops and Military use Malinois' for K9 work (as opposed to Narcotics Detection, Bomb Detection, etc...)
For the most part, dogs chosen by the police and military come from Europe, where there is an industry specifically breeding dogs for this purpose. Knowledgeable experienced K9 American trainers fly there, sort through and test the dogs they are offered, eliminating most, and come back with what they hope can can do the work after extended training. The days of Dogs for Democracy in WWII when people contributed dogs based on their breed passed a long time ago. These dogs are the equivalent of Field Trial Champions, and the fact that a random dog is of a particular breed doesn't mean it can be a FTCH. Or even a bird dog if you don't a lot of work into him, and maybe not even then. I wonder how many Mals you've known personally or how many books you've read on modern War Dogs. My guess is none of either. It shows.

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Re: Non gundog related (Belgian Malinois)

Post by JONOV » Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:06 am

Steve007 wrote:
JONOV wrote:[It's not a criticism of the dog, or the breed. They're intelligent. They're highly trainable. But there's a reason that Cops and Military use Malinois' for K9 work (as opposed to Narcotics Detection, Bomb Detection, etc...)
For the most part, dogs chosen by the police and military come from Europe, where there is an industry specifically breeding dogs for this purpose. Knowledgeable experienced K9 American trainers fly there, sort through and test the dogs they are offered, eliminating most, and come back with what they hope can can do the work after extended training. The days of Dogs for Democracy in WWII when people contributed dogs based on their breed passed a long time ago. These dogs are the equivalent of Field Trial Champions, and the fact that a random dog is of a particular breed doesn't mean it can be a FTCH. Or even a bird dog if you don't a lot of work into him, and maybe not even then.
No, but almost all of them will have some of the qualities, in some degree, that make a bird dog a FTCH. A Pointer might not have the run to compete on the AA circuit, but you'd be hard pressed to find one that works naturally in Lab or Spaniel Range.
Steve007 wrote:I wonder how many Mals you've known personally or how many books you've read on modern War Dogs. My guess is none of either. It shows.
3 or 4 Mal's and Dutch shepherds I've known. No war dog books honestly. I think we're misunderstanding each other.

The point I'm trying to make is that they require someone that knows what they're doing. They can easily be way too much dog for someone. A GSP can too, but in a different way. Does that make sense? He already said the dog tried to bite him putting it in the crate.

I like pitbulls. I've known a ton of them that are really nice animals. I would have no issue having one. But, there is still a reason that fighting rings use pitbulls.

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Re: Non gundog related (Belgian Malinois)

Post by magspa » Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:20 pm

Yes she will get snippy when physically forced but I haven't had to lately now that I've been working with her. But I think any dog will when being physically forced, not understanding the situation with a stranger.But I had no choice at that time. She is doing well, her house manners are getting better and I can see her confidence growing. Once her basic commands and obedience are 100% I'll try something more advanced like tracking. She goes in the crate by command now and whines some but freaks out when you walk by it, especially when you turn past it.

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Re: Non gundog related (Belgian Malinois)

Post by Featherfinder » Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:42 pm

Mags, get a chair and a good book/magazine or your laptop and sit next to her kennel (4' away or so), and simply disregard ANY carry-on. If it persists move farther away by 1'. Repeat....
If/when she stops whining completely, wait 5 seconds then quietly let her out, take her for a walk at heel, return home, toss a treat on the kennel and like-it-or-not back in she goes and back to the book you go.
Make sure you laugh, sigh, smile, talk to or comment about your book/magazine/laptop which will peak your dog's interest ( a redirect or distraction of sorts). No eye contact or verbalizing while she is kenneled.

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Re: Non gundog related (Belgian Malinois)

Post by KCKLH » Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:01 pm

Ive had a deployment and a dozen or so training operations as an enabler with 1/75 and they exclusively used mals. Couple guys in my old platoon actually helped produce the documentary Wardogs on Hulu featuring them. I have an insane level of admiration for this breed but the drive is something to be very cautious about and needs to be controlled. Ive personally seen one peel away from a guy a hundred yards out in a bite suit to rip out some poor nearby ranger privates tricep. None of the guys around him knew the release commands so the kid took way more punishment than he needed to. Id suggest you do some work to ensure the animal has an on/off switch.

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