OFA or Penn Hip

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Safari_Shaun
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OFA or Penn Hip

Post by Safari_Shaun » Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:31 pm

I have a 2 year old female Britt that I am considering breeding next year. I am going to have some health screening done either way. My normal vet does not do OFA or Penn Hip, but told me that Penn Hip is a better way to go.

I see that the OFA rating is shown on the pedigree, would Penn Hip work with AKC registration? Is it better than OFA? Or should I go with OFA?

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MGIII
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OFA or Penn Hip

Post by MGIII » Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:46 pm

Most OFA but Penn hip will work.

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deseeker
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Re: OFA or Penn Hip

Post by deseeker » Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:54 pm

Ask the vet you are thinking of using, how many dogs he has OFA'd. You need a vet that knows what he is doing to get the dog positioned right or your rating could suffer. I'm in a small town with 3 vets and I'll only let one of them OFA my dogs. Make sure they have good xray machines as well. One of the vets in my town has an xray machine so poor you would be better off holding the dog up to a light bulb to see the joints :(

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Re: OFA or Penn Hip

Post by cjhills » Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:36 pm

I have not done Pennhip for a long time but when I did it was way more expensive. You can do OFA without sedation, which is a lot cheaper.
You can do OFA when you do Pennhip with the extended view Pennhip Xray and It should only cost the OFA fee which is around $40.
AKC will only put OFA results On the registration If the dog is permanently Identified. Such as a tattoo or microchip.
I don't believe AKC puts Pennhip on the registration or that it is a better way to go. Our OFAs have got much better after several generations of OFA.
I don't know if things have changed, but when I did Pennhip The price really varied Between Vets. Several hundred dollars difference. Not many vets did it then. So it might pay to shop Around..........Cj

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Re: OFA or Penn Hip

Post by Carolina Gundogs » Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:58 pm

PennHipp is more expensive but is a true measurement of the hip joint from the xray from my understanding but is fairly new technology compared to OFA.

OFA is much less expensive but is a subjective opinion from 3 vets on what the dog's hips should rate. OFA has been around much longer and is much more widely used due to that as well as the lower cost.

I have seen a case where OFA rated hips as only GOOD when then were Pennhipped and showed the hipes were within the top 2% of all tested so this does show that some opinions may not be accurate.

The important thing is that you do one or the other to be sure some bad underlying problems aren't waiting to come out.

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Re: OFA or Penn Hip

Post by Fozzie's Mom » Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:09 pm

Definitely talk with your vet about how many they have done and how comfortable they are in getting the proper views. . . .this is imperative! Poor technique will skew the results and cause an inaccurate reading.

OFA is the widely accepted form for certifying hips (and elbows, etc.). Most vets are comfortable with the procedure, as it only involves 1 view of the pelvis, and AKC reports the standings in conjunction with the dog's registration information.

PennHips is actually a much more involved and more in depth look at the pelvis, involving multiple views, both relaxed and under stretch. It gives a more detailed view of the dog's actual conformation and possible future problems than OFA, but many breeders aren't up for spending the extra money for that evaluation.

If you're looking for the absolute gold standard of evaluative films, it's PennHips for sure.

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Re: OFA or Penn Hip

Post by cjhills » Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:34 pm

Fozzie's Mom wrote:Definitely talk with your vet about how many they have done and how comfortable they are in getting the proper views. . . .this is imperative! Poor technique will skew the results and cause an inaccurate reading.

OFA is the widely accepted form for certifying hips (and elbows, etc.). Most vets are comfortable with the procedure, as it only involves 1 view of the pelvis, and AKC reports the standings in conjunction with the dog's registration information.

PennHips is actually a much more involved and more in depth look at the pelvis, involving multiple views, both relaxed and under stretch. It gives a more detailed view of the dog's actual conformation and possible future problems than OFA, but many breeders aren't up for spending the extra money for that evaluation.

If you're looking for the absolute gold standard of evaluative films, it's PennHips for sure.
Actually, there is nothing that supports Penn hip as the gold standard. They do two X rays. One stretched and one compressed. They rate hips individually within the breed. They both do a pretty good job of predicting future Hip dysplasia.....Cj

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Re: OFA or Penn Hip

Post by Safari_Shaun » Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:11 pm

Thanks for all of the information. I know that I need to have the OFA or Penn Hip done, which I am leaning towards the OFA. Is there anything else that needs to be screened for with a Brittany?

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Re: OFA or Penn Hip

Post by SwitchGrassWPG » Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:12 pm

Each method looks at different things and there's no comparison between an OFA rating and PennHip measurement. I've seen dogs get a Good OFA rating but have extremely loose PennHip DI.

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Re: OFA or Penn Hip

Post by mm » Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:38 am

What about doing OFA x rays without sedation? I hear some vets do this and it is better as sedation can give a reading that is not as good due to the relaxation? I would rather not use sedation but I am having a hard time finding a vet in my area who will do it without. Has anyone had it done this way. How is it done?

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Re: OFA or Penn Hip

Post by cjhills » Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:27 am

mm wrote:What about doing OFA x rays without sedation? I hear some vets do this and it is better as sedation can give a reading that is not as good due to the relaxation? I would rather not use sedation but I am having a hard time finding a vet in my area who will do it without. Has anyone had it done this way. How is it done?
My vet Does all of mine without Sedation. One person holds the dogs head and another stretches the legs, with the dog on it's back. I used to hold the dogs head. I do not really believe it makes a lot of difference. Except for cost.
I think it really helps to study a lot of X rays, so you have an idea of what good hips should look like. then have your vet let you see your photos. You will find there is very little difference between good and excellent. There is also Human error involved. But OFA has Made a huge improvement in Labs and Goldens.
I had a young Male who's OFA was "fair'. I did Pennhip on him and both Hips scored .18 they did not have a very large data base at that time. His OFA came back "Good".
Remember, Hip evaluation is to improve your dogs, or at least to not make them worse. If you try to find a vet who can manipulate the score, you are defeating the
purpose. I have had people tell me DR.X can get you a excellent every time.
As with all things "dog" you can find people for one or the other or against both, some have good reasons, But, rating hips have made a big improvement in the hips in some breeds and it is mostly a good thing.....................Cj

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Re: OFA or Penn Hip

Post by deseeker » Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:39 am

All my britts but 1 have had their x-rays with out being drugged--the one exception was a female that hated being on her back and would struggle so hard you couldn't get a good picture. You might try stretching your britt out on his back to see how it handles being stretched out. When my vet sends the x-ray picture via e-mail attachmet to OFA, he also burns a copy of the x-ray onto a disk and gives it to me. Make sure your dog has a microchip or a tattoo or OFA won't send the results to AKC--if the dog doesn't have chip or tattoo, you'll find out the results, but not AKC(which results in no OFA ratings for that parent on your AKC litter papers).

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Re: OFA or Penn Hip

Post by slistoe » Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:07 am

mm wrote:What about doing OFA x rays without sedation? I hear some vets do this and it is better as sedation can give a reading that is not as good due to the relaxation? I would rather not use sedation but I am having a hard time finding a vet in my area who will do it without. Has anyone had it done this way. How is it done?
We do them without sedation all the time. It helps though if the vet will allow you to hold/position the dog rather than some stranger.

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Re: OFA or Penn Hip

Post by cjhills » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:22 am

slistoe wrote:
mm wrote:What about doing OFA x rays without sedation? I hear some vets do this and it is better as sedation can give a reading that is not as good due to the relaxation? I would rather not use sedation but I am having a hard time finding a vet in my area who will do it without. Has anyone had it done this way. How is it done?
We do them without sedation all the time. It helps though if the vet will allow you to hold/position the dog rather than some stranger.
I got one of the vet techs trained to hold my dogs. They usually want to yell at the dog.......Cj

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Re: OFA or Penn Hip

Post by quailaddict » Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:02 am

All BS. It is a waste of time. All a money game and has no bearing on the future of the pups. Some breeders have an in with a vet and send in the same x rays to get all their dogs good or excellent OFA. All a scam. Is your dog healthy and has good mobility, then breed it. If not don't.

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Re: OFA or Penn Hip

Post by cjhills » Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:10 am

Quail:
You watch too much Fox News.
Hip rating Has definitely improved the hips in some breeds Goldens and Labs for sure..................Cj

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Re: OFA or Penn Hip

Post by Steve007 » Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:37 am

quailaddict wrote:All BS. It is a waste of time. All a money game and has no bearing on the future of the pups. Some breeders have an in with a vet and send in the same x rays to get all their dogs good or excellent OFA. All a scam. Is your dog healthy and has good mobility, then breed it. If not don't.
This is a joke, right? Did your old grandfather tell you this fifty years ago, and you still believe it? Not that I wish to speak ill of a guy's grandpa, but..

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Re: OFA or Penn Hip

Post by JONOV » Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:31 pm

quailaddict wrote:All BS. It is a waste of time. All a money game and has no bearing on the future of the pups. Some breeders have an in with a vet and send in the same x rays to get all their dogs good or excellent OFA. All a scam. Is your dog healthy and has good mobility, then breed it. If not don't.
That kind of depends now, doesn't it?

If I were buying a pointer I wouldn't care. They have some of the lowest instances of HD out there.

If I were buying a GSP, I don't think I would let it get in the way, either. They something like a 3% instance of HD. I'll take my chances on that.

A Brittany though? They have around 8 or 9% instance of HD, similar to GWP's. Not quite like a Golden Retriever, where 15% have it...But that's high enough that I might ask for it. If I were getting a retriever, I would insist on hip and elbow clearances.

I agree, that sometimes tests are pushed that are of spurious utility. The GWPCA pushes breeding dogs that are CHIC certified, which includes (I think) hips, elbows, eyes, cardiac, and thyroid. But the thing is, 98% of GWPs have normal cardiac function. They do have "a lot" of thyroid issues, in the sense that they have more than other breeds, but its not so common as to be super widespread like HD in Golden Retrievers. Elbow Displasia can happen, but again, it isn't quite what you see in labs or other breeds.

So I won't say its BS, but it does merit investigation.

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Re: OFA or Penn Hip

Post by Steve007 » Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:53 pm

Jonov, it's worth noting that those stats are the ones compiled by the OFA,and thus are clearly falsely low. It isn't that the OFA fibs, but they evaluate what they see. Who would waste money sending in xrays that wouldn't pass? And of course, pet people or the unknowledgeable don't send in xrays at all.

As an example, I had a Gordon Setter some years ago that both my competent general vet and a second-opinion orthopedic surgeon said was bi-lateral dysplastic. (I got a partial refund from the breeder,and kept the dog.) I never sent the films to the OFA. So when they report HD percentages on Gordons, my dog was not factored in.

It is certainly clear that HD is(mostly) genetic and that some breeds have a far higher incidence than others. But numbers reported by OFA (or Penn Hip) are incorrect and way too low.

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