1st GSP - questions

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porochi
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1st GSP - questions

Post by porochi » Thu May 03, 2018 9:20 am

i recently bought a GSP, my first. I have a few questions. He's 18 mos., has been hunted over quite a bit already and isn't gun shy. I hunted over him before I bought him and he did well, pointed and retrieved several pheasants, i was sold, so bought him. I don't regret it, we've hunted several preserves since regular season closed and he's always hunted hard and found birds, but, he hunts for himself, not me, he tends to range out and if there's other dogs he'll pair up with them and go where they go, regardless where I'm at. I end up following him around instead of vice versa. Sometimes he'll get too far ahead and bust birds. I use an e-collar and zap him when he gets too far out but he seems hard headed and won't break his habit of ranging out. I've used a long lead line sometimes but in the fields it gets tangled up in brush pretty quickly and I spend a lot of time untangling the line and the dog. I walk pretty slow due to an old injury, so maybe that's part of the problem. Tips appreciated. I've read books, considered taking him for professional training, but money's tight. He could use work on retrieving too, he'll always pick up the bird but often brings it halfway back then drops it to resume hunting. Sometimes he'll bring it to hand, other times not. I'm not too concerned about that because at least he always finds the downed birds, so far anyway.

Another, more perplexing problem, I break out in a rash on my arms and hands whenever I pet him, touch him, etc. I've never experienced that before. Do GSP's have some kind of unique oil in their coat, skin, etc.? Every day I deal with this. I've bathed him several times with different shampoos but I still break out. I'm allergic to his coat, seriously. Weird. But I'm not getting rid of him regardless. He's friendly, works hard, kids love him, he loves to hunt; I'll live with the rash, just wear long sleeves and wash my hands frequently. Just wondering if this is something others have dealt with and how. As for his behavior afield, looks like we'll just have to hunt a lot more to work out the kinks. Oh well.

birddogger2
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Re: 1st GSP - questions

Post by birddogger2 » Thu May 03, 2018 5:52 pm

porochi wrote:i recently bought a GSP, my first. I have a few questions. He's 18 mos., has been hunted over quite a bit already and isn't gun shy. I hunted over him before I bought him and he did well, pointed and retrieved several pheasants, i was sold, so bought him. I don't regret it, we've hunted several preserves since regular season closed and he's always hunted hard and found birds, but, he hunts for himself, not me, he tends to range out and if there's other dogs he'll pair up with them and go where they go, regardless where I'm at. I end up following him around instead of vice versa. Sometimes he'll get too far ahead and bust birds. I use an e-collar and zap him when he gets too far out but he seems hard headed and won't break his habit of ranging out. I've used a long lead line sometimes but in the fields it gets tangled up in brush pretty quickly and I spend a lot of time untangling the line and the dog. I walk pretty slow due to an old injury, so maybe that's part of the problem. Tips appreciated. I've read books, considered taking him for professional training, but money's tight. He could use work on retrieving too, he'll always pick up the bird but often brings it halfway back then drops it to resume hunting. Sometimes he'll bring it to hand, other times not. I'm not too concerned about that because at least he always finds the downed birds, so far anyway.

Another, more perplexing problem, I break out in a rash on my arms and hands whenever I pet him, touch him, etc. I've never experienced that before. Do GSP's have some kind of unique oil in their coat, skin, etc.? Every day I deal with this. I've bathed him several times with different shampoos but I still break out. I'm allergic to his coat, seriously. Weird. But I'm not getting rid of him regardless. He's friendly, works hard, kids love him, he loves to hunt; I'll live with the rash, just wear long sleeves and wash my hands frequently. Just wondering if this is something others have dealt with and how. As for his behavior afield, looks like we'll just have to hunt a lot more to work out the kinks. Oh well.
I can't address the allergy part, but perhaps wearing gloves may help.

As far as the training, the hard stuff has already been dog. the dog hunts, points, holds and retrieves. All you need to do there is maintain it and not screw that part up.

It sounds to me like you have a summer of fun dog work ahead of you. The first thing you need to do is to make sure you and your dog are pals. If the dog likes you and likes being with you, that makes training the dog soooo much easier. Always begin and end on a good note. The thing you need to work on most with your dog, given your physical situation... IMO... is recall. The dog HAS to come in to you when called and this is especially true if you can't move quickly and the dog is out there where you can't be.

I would do it in the yard, at first. I would put a checkcord AND an e-collar on the dog and let it ramble in an enclosed area. I would pick up the trailing checkcord and call the dog in to you. Call in a normal voice...do not shout. If the dog does not INSTANTLY turn and come to you...pop the checkcord and gently, but firmly reel the dog in..all the way in... to you. Give the dog a "good dog" and a pat on the flank. Put the dog at heel and make him stand there for a good 30 seconds and then give him another "good dog" and release him. The next toime the dog is called and he turns and come in, give him little treat like a hot dog piece. Rinse and repeat with a treat at unpredictable intervals ..until the dog is coming to you the instant you give the command .. Then put the checkcord away and go to the e-collar.

With the e-collar set on a very low setting(just enough for the dog to feel it), let the dog ramble in that same enclosed area and call to him. Do not shout as before. If he does not come at the first command, repeat the command in the same voice and same tone, but with an e-collar stim. A short nick should suffice. If the dog still does not come, turn the intensity dial up 3 or 4 levels, to near the top of the range, repeat the command in the same quiet firm voice and hit him with a high hard one. If the dog freezes, as he probably will... go get him, lead him by the collar to where you were, give him a "good dog" and a pat and put him at heel for 30 seconds.

If you keep doing this...the dog will, rather quickly understand that its very best option is to come to you the very first time you call. As the dog gains this understanding and responds appropriately, you can give the occasional treat...but ALWAYS remember to praise the dog with your voice and a pat on the flank.

You can continue this drill in the field. I suspect that if you do a thorough job in the yard, the field should go fairly smoothly. Be calm, be patient but be insistent and persistent.

The next phase of training can also be started in the yard with a checkcord. It is called "bending". Basically you are letting the dog runaway from you to the end of the checkcord and then cueing the dog to turn and run parallel to you, across your front. You can use whatever command you like to cue the dog. I use GEE and HAW, same as the horse people do, but you can just use "hut" to turn the dog across your front. The checkcord is used in a similar way as before, with a "Hut" and an instant popand tug in the direction you want the dog to turn.
You can go to an open grassy area with a long checkcord and do this before going to the e-collar. You can also pre-condition the dog by doing heel/whoa drills in the yard and changing direction frequently with the dog at close heel.

The goal of the "bending" is to "imprint" on your dog YOUR comfortable range... not his. You want the dog to start to turn back across your front just about the time when you think he is getting to far out.

Obviously, this will take affair amount of repetition to accomplish. But once it is done, the dog will know what YOUR comfort zone is and that if he goes out of YOUR comfort zone...things get unpleasant for him.

As I said previously, be calm, be patient, use quiet, firm verbal tones If you give commands in a relatively quiet voice the dog will , again, quickly come to understand that if he can't hear you, things will invariably get unpleasant for him.

If you shout, he can hear you and ignore you from much farther away. If you don't raise your voice he has to stay closer to be able to hear you.

Patience, persistence and insistence. Always let the dog know you appreciate it when he tries. We are usually quick to correct, but unfortunately, we too often forget to praise and reward the good behaviors.

Lastly a healthy sense of humor can carry you over some of the rough spots.

Hope some of this helps.

RayG
Last edited by birddogger2 on Thu May 03, 2018 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Meller
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Re: 1st GSP - questions

Post by Meller » Thu May 03, 2018 5:58 pm

What part of Kansas are you from? There may be someone close that could help.

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Re: 1st GSP - questions

Post by gspbrit » Thu May 03, 2018 9:47 pm

RayG's method is what I used on my last GSP and all of my Brittanys and it works great. I never had an allergic reaction to my GSPs so can't help there. As far as the retrieving goes, after you have him coming when called and steady on birds you might consider force fetching. There's really no force involved; just patience. Many people believe that you shouldn't try if you haven't done it before, but you can do it in 2-3 months, slowly, if you find a program and follow it step by step. It will make the dog more biddable in many ways.

porochi
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Re: 1st GSP - questions

Post by porochi » Thu May 03, 2018 10:11 pm

Good tips! Thanks much. We're still working on general obedience, e.g. sit, down, stay, come, whoa, heel, etc. He's such a bundle of energy that it's hard to calm him down enough to train him. When I break out the leash, harness, even the e-collar he practically riots he gets so excited. If I have snacks i can get him sort of settled down and he'll go through his paces but it is very hard to keep him focused, he is so wired up. Initially I kept him in his run but since we have a big fenced back yard I usually just let him roam the yard, thinking he'll burn off some energy that way and put him up at night. I keep training sessions short, maybe 10 or 15 minutes, if that, then take him on long walks or to the dog park so he can roam off leash. My main issue is just getting him calmed down enough so that we can train and make progress. I swear, sometimes I think he's just going to self-combust he's so wound up. Maybe it's the food, I feed him Diamond High Energy because the guy I bought him from used it and he eats it well. I tried switching him to a Diamond maintenance brand but he would hardly eat it so switched back to what he's used to. He's a great looking, lean, well muscled dog, everyone comments on how athletic he looks, so the food seems right for him but I'm wondering if I should switch to something that might key him down a bit or is this what I get for buying a young GSP? But I'm tickled pink with how he hunts though, other than ranging out too far at times and leaving me in the dust. 2nd to last day of pheasant season he found me 9 hens and on heavily hunted public land. He dug them out of some of the thickest cover you'd ever find a pheasant in. No roosters but I was impressed as heck by his tenacity, so I know I have a good one, just need to get a handle on his excitability, if that's possible at his age.

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Re: 1st GSP - questions

Post by Featherfinder » Fri May 04, 2018 6:22 am

Was this dog a GSP that didn't make it in the field trial world?
At 18 months, this dog already has ingrained habits. If you don't understand how to alter his application you could trade off other assets within this dog in your efforts to resolve the challenge. You might better employ assistance from a pro. As mentioned there are a couple at least in KS that I know of.
This is why I don't support that field trial rejects can make good gun dogs unless you hunt vast territory western states. A field trial reject in eastern states can be more work than an untrained young dog. It all depends. In KS, you can get away with an average range dog but most hunters wouldn't enjoy hunting over said dog. Savvy KS quail that have been pressured will run almost as much as ditch parrots so getting to finds can bring with it it's own challenges.
I appreciate your concern but I recommend professional intervention. Done wrong, you stand to lose more than you gain.

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Re: 1st GSP - questions

Post by isonychia » Fri May 04, 2018 8:35 am

That sounds like a good dog honestly. Don't forget he is coming in tot he terrible 2's. My older Brittany still does that kind of hunt for himself thing on the first day or two of wild bird season. People say you can't reason with a dog, but for whatever reason when I catch him in this mood if I pen him down and talk sternly like "Hey man, what are you doing jabar jabar jabar" it seems to work, I wouldn't recommend that though haha. Some dogs require some really high stem from the collar in the right moments to break that mindset, something only an experienced handler can help you with. High stem around birds can be a one time Godsend kind of a thing if you know what you are doing, or a mistake you will regret for the rest of the dog's life if you don't. This is also something reserved for a dog that KNOWS your comfort zone (as mentioned above) but pushes anyways because "it's worth it" That is when you let him know, "No, definately not worth it." I used to call my dog in all day long, sure he would come, but then go right back out past the 150 yard mark (grouse hunting) and we would just run this cycle, I finally got tired of that and you can bet he did too... now we seem to be on the same page. Same went for heel, he knew it, he just didn't mind a little nick here and there (I would even turn it up till he just yelped a little, but that didn't seem to change the overall response), he would come back and cycle through pushing my limits. This dog is a knucklehead, after 6 years of this I finally decided to turn the collar all of the way up (hesitantly). Now he heels perfectly and no more pestering! It took me 6 years of experience with this one dog every day to come to that conclusion, outside, in-person help from an experienced trainer can save you a lot of time.

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isonychia
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Re: 1st GSP - questions

Post by isonychia » Fri May 04, 2018 8:46 am

Also, I beekeep and my reactions to stings are getting worse, thinking a trip to an allergist might be in store. My guess is that is your best bet as well.

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Re: 1st GSP - questions

Post by averageguy » Fri May 04, 2018 10:10 am

You have been given some good advice on training a good recall. The Perfect Start/Perfect Finish DVDs are excellent and give you a complete visual pattern to the same if you are looking for some training materials.

Some thoughts for you to consider follow:

The Best Wild Quail dog I have hunted over thus far was a FT reject GSP my buddy came up with. When she was the age of your dog she ran around like an idiot to a large degree, compelled to run but not sure why she was running. Then She got into birds and learned her purpose in life. She found, pointed and held more quail than any other dog I have hunted with, and handled them superbly and consistently.

Which makes a critical point. If a dog is reliably broke to point and hold the birds, the fact that the dog ranges until it finds birds is an asset not a problem. Too many people panic when they cannot see their dogs working and that holds back a lot of dogs, and makes for battles that are seldom won by either side.

Train the dog to find and hold birds and then let it do so is a far better approach in my opinion.

A tool which works really well in tandem with that is a Garmin Alpha GPS/Ecollar. I keep track of my dog with it in all types of cover and terrain, it alerts me when the dog is on point and I have trained the dog to recall silently to the tone on the collar when I want him to come back into me or come close enough to see me turning and heading in another direction in which case he does the same hunting to the front.

I encourage you think through what I post above before you start doing alot of discipline training aimed at altering your dog's search ground pattern for birds which might be best left alone. You might instead place your efforts into training the dog to be reliably steady and to recall to the collar tone as the more productive outcome in your partnership.

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Re: 1st GSP - questions

Post by JONOV » Fri May 04, 2018 1:05 pm

averageguy wrote:You have been given some good advice on training a good recall. The Perfect Start/Perfect Finish DVDs are excellent and give you a complete visual pattern to the same if you are looking for some training materials.

Some thoughts for you to consider follow:

The Best Wild Quail dog I have hunted over thus far was a FT reject GSP my buddy came up with. When she was the age of your dog she ran around like an idiot to a large degree, compelled to run but not sure why she was running. Then She got into birds and learned her purpose in life. She found, pointed and held more quail than any other dog I have hunted with, and handled them superbly and consistently.

Which makes a critical point. If a dog is reliably broke to point and hold the birds, the fact that the dog ranges until it finds birds is an asset not a problem. Too many people panic when they cannot see their dogs working and that holds back a lot of dogs, and makes for battles that are seldom won by either side.

Train the dog to find and hold birds and then let it do so is a far better approach in my opinion.

A tool which works really well in tandem with that is a Garmin Alpha GPS/Ecollar. I keep track of my dog with it in all types of cover and terrain, it alerts me when the dog is on point and I have trained the dog to recall silently to the tone on the collar when I want him to come back into me or come close enough to see me turning and heading in another direction in which case he does the same hunting to the front.

I encourage you think through what I post above before you start doing alot of discipline training aimed at altering your dog's search ground pattern for birds which might be best left alone. You might instead place your efforts into training the dog to be reliably steady and to recall to the collar tone as the more productive outcome in your partnership.
I always cringe when people hack, hack hack the dog...It isn't a cocker, don't expect it to be one...I almost threw up when I read a post about "I was so proud of my GWP today, never got outside of 30 yards the whole hunt, training is coming around great!" Like, why didn't you buy a lab or Spaniel then?

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Re: 1st GSP - questions

Post by averageguy » Fri May 04, 2018 2:47 pm

JONOV wrote:I always cringe when people hack, hack hack the dog...It isn't a cocker, don't expect it to be one...I almost threw up when I read a post about "I was so proud of my GWP today, never got outside of 30 yards the whole hunt, training is coming around great!" Like, why didn't you buy a lab or Spaniel then?
You just can't help but feel sorry for some dogs.

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Re: 1st GSP - questions

Post by porochi » Fri May 04, 2018 7:32 pm

If I can just keep him in shotgun range I'd be happy. He generally will but if he sniffs a pheasant and it's running, he'll run it down till it flushes. I've seen him push them out past 70 yards or more away and then flush well out of range of course. I hesitate to zap him with the e-collar when he's doing that for fear he'll think he's being punished for finding and flushing the birds and that will make him timid when he's scented one, thinking daddy's gonna zap me for doing what comes naturally. And the fact I'm somewhat lame, literally, means I'm slow to catch up to him. Many times he'll range out further and further, get on some scent, it's a runner, and he's off to the races and busts the bird 70 yards out or more. When the pheasant holds, he'll hold point, and usually I can get up to him in time to get a good shot when the bird flushes. But here in KS, late season wild pheasant ain't gonna hold, not unless it's good and cold and you've got snow. But hey, he's putting me on more birds, that's for sure. I don't know if he's field trial reject. I'm owner # 3 and he's just 18 mos. I bought him from a preserve where they used him as a guide dog, claimed they shot 1000+ birds over him in one full season. Don't get me wrong, I'm very happy with him, he just hunts further out and faster than I'd like and I do get frustrated watching him bust birds well out of range. My friends say hit him with the e-collar hard when he does that, especially chasing runners, but I can't quite bring myself to do that much thinking it'll confuse him more than help. As far as pro help, I'd like that, if I could afford it. There's a couple around here but rates go $500/mo. and up. The wife would leave me if i spent that kind of $ on my new dog. She wants a new car...

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Re: 1st GSP - questions

Post by cjhills » Fri May 04, 2018 10:01 pm

You really don't need a pointing dog in shotgun range. You need him to hold point until you get thereto flush the bird.
It is pretty likely that the hunters where he was a guide dog shot every thing that flew. Sounds to me like you do also. That is the best way to create a long range flusher.
You will need to train a solid "whoa". Now is the time to do it. There are many methods to teach whoa. Find one that works for you. Most people on here will tell you not to use whoa when the dog is on point. But do it anyway. You need to keep him still. Not yelling or nagging just quietly cautioning. He should also be collar conditioned, so you can use the collar to stop him without freaking him out. Later you may have to hit him pretty hard to stop the chase. But you want him to know it was because he disobeyed you not the bird,
Use pigeons to start with and a launcher get him steady to wing. The perfection kennels DVDs work the best, but they require alot of birds and at least one helper. Pigeons are about the only birds a normal person can afford because it will take a lot of birds.
When you get him steady only shoot birds he points and allows you to walk in front and shoot. If you like you can allow him to break on the flush or shot but it is easier to keep him steady 'til fall and send him to retrieve. It is not really difficult to get a dog steady, you just have to be persistant. Get him to where you can stop him when you know he is chasing. Walk to him,heel him off and send him in a different direction. There are some dogs that are just not hard wired to hunt with us. It has nothing to do with liking us or not liking us it is just how they are programmed. They can still be trained to do a good job...Cj...................
Last edited by cjhills on Fri May 04, 2018 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1st GSP - questions

Post by Featherfinder » Fri May 04, 2018 10:03 pm

CJ, I might disagree with your perception. Guide gun dogs are typically not big runners because the bottom line is providing birds for customers to shoot/kill. I hesitate to add that some customers are not prepared to hunt hard after spirited dogs either. They are often out for a 1/2 day MAX of blasting at birds. Furthermore, it doesn't sound to me like the OP has had much of a chance to shoot birds - at least not runners - unless he is using a 7MMmag! :)
I re-iterate, getting a field trial reject to hunt like a gun dog can be more work than getting a young dog started out right. Some folk hunt wide open expanses and a field trial reject is the cat's meow. For others, you are starting out behind the proverbial 8 ball. Not a good place to "start".
Your dog's range is not a product of your shotgun's effective range. Range for pointing dogs, is determined by habitat and species as conveyed by the success there-in. I like my dogs reaching out however the downside has been that while my dog might not err, the birds will not be there because I trialed and did not want them self relocating. They do relocate on command but that can sometimes will cost me wild birds - I don't mind so much.
Hence my comment about savvy KS quail. Your dog may be steady but the birds always aren't! Sounds like he isn't handling runners. All I'm saying is, if he is WAY out there, you increase the odds for a fail and make it harder to witness what exactly is happening. That sweet spot needs to be learned by your dog and perhaps at 18 months, he just hasn't figured it out yet, as long as he isn't perfectly happy just bumping and chasing!
You touched on something though. You said the dog conveyed to you that he was a keeper based on his performance on pheasants (released-by-the previous owner/trainer I presume?). Perhaps the gent knew enough to place those pheasants so they wouldn't run? In fairness to you, you saw a pretty polished performance. The key here is, if the pheasants (or any other species) run, a gun dog should be trained to relocate, either on command or self-relocate. In either case, it is not an excuse for bumping/flushing the birds. If he does, he got it wrong. There-in lies a part of his training/education. You need to convey that you know how - by working together - he can experience success.
For me, your dog hasn't exhausted his belief that he can catch birds without your partnership and because of his past, he is in probably correct.
Again, this could be any easy fix for a pro. Not as easy for a non-pro but still very do-able. You could potentially have the best dog you'll ever own here, IF you get this right. He sure sounds like he has the fabric! I wish you and your dog success!
Last edited by Featherfinder on Fri May 04, 2018 10:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1st GSP - questions

Post by isonychia » Fri May 04, 2018 10:17 pm

What kind of habitat is your dog running pheasant on? Running birds take dogs a while to get the hang of, and they can only get it if the dang bird holds somewhere. I have hunted blue grouse that would bust at 100 yards, just depends on the cover.

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Re: 1st GSP - questions

Post by cjhills » Fri May 04, 2018 10:42 pm

FF:
This is not what I would define as a big running dog. Flushing at 70 yards, sounds like a chaser who has had many birds which he chased and flushed shot over him. The previous owner said thousand birds. Doubt they were all pointed. If the OP wants him to hold points he needs to stop shooting flushes which are in range.
Range Is not the problem, lack of training is. If he bust birds at 50 or 500 yds the results are the same. You don't get the bird. Conversely if he holds point at 50 yds or 500 yds until you flush the bird you stand a pretty good chance of getting said bird......................Cj

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Re: 1st GSP - questions

Post by averageguy » Sat May 05, 2018 6:28 am

Sounds like a steadiness problem not a range problem. The dog needs to be trained to be steady on birds, no chasing. Which will help the dog be more cautious when it relocates on running pheasants seeking to pin them down vs put them in the air.

I have no silver bullet to suggest as to how to train the dog that does not require some resources. I use the methods I learned in the Perfect Start/Perfect Finish DVDs, built two pigeons coops for homing and shooter pigeons and bought two remote launchers. That and places to train were all needed and used to train my puppies, but it works very well once you have them in place. And you can teach a puppy the right way from the start should you ever go down that road in the future.

I have hunted in KS annually for 50 years now. Made 4 trips to KS last year. Pressured educated birds run everywhere you find them. The thicker the cover the better the chances your dog can get them pinned down. I like to hunt pheasants in heavy grass cover or small weed patches for that reason but those areas are difficult to walk in/through so not sure how well that will work out for you. I never hunt pheasants in row crops as nothing good results from putting a pointing dog down there is my experience.

As to range. The description is not a range problem, rather the dog is not steady on moving and wild flushing birds. That can be addressed with steadiness and recall training which has nothing to do with attempting to change the dog's natural range.

I have hunted the last two seasons on a ranch in TX in Feb. My Buddy and I take our personal gundogs and hunt them but also hunt behind a pro string of EPs as the temperatures rise. One of the EPs I have hunted over each year is the DAM of the 2017 Runner-up at AMES. So a dog with considerable go and range. In 2016 the quail were so thick on that ranch the dog was almost never past 100 yards from us before it went on point. We walked from point to point basically. This past year the bird numbers were fractions of the prior year and the dog, and dogs, all ranged out much further because of it. But they held their birds as well as any dog can when they found them. That is an illustration of how letting a trained dog range is why we have them. Attempting to hack a dog into an unnatural range is unproductive to the core objective of finding and shooting birds. And it illustrates that a dog that is ranging to find birds vs just run will reliably stop and point them whenever and wherever they smell them even if it is only a 100 yards away. Where birds are thick the dog will be on point a lot, where they are sparse the dog will range and find you something to shoot at without you having to walk over every objective possible behind a close ranging dog. You just have to trust your trained dog and let it work.

I think this dog could work out well for you once it is trained to be steady. It is possible however that a close working lab would be more to your liking in the alternative.

Best of Luck to you Sir, hoping for the best outcome for you and your dog.

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Re: 1st GSP - questions

Post by Featherfinder » Sat May 05, 2018 8:54 am

Averageguy, the dog as described is steady IF the birds don't run. Therefore, I presume both you and CJ are saying the same thing I did? The dog is not steady on his relocate efforts regarding runners. No?
I did not deduct that the dog did not recall. Might have missed that.
CJ, I'm not sure the OP has shot many bumped birds at all. I'm of the impression the dog is bumping runners well beyond shotgun range. Just my take....
Porochi, have you been shooting birds he has not pointed?

averageguy
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Re: 1st GSP - questions

Post by averageguy » Sat May 05, 2018 10:40 am

My reading is he is experiencing the classic, (to be expected), escalating chain reaction of young dog bumping and chasing birds, encountering even more birds ahead as it goes. Every young GWP I have raised has done the same when they were babies. A Sign of good things to come is how I have experienced it as it shows the dog is ate up for birds ...

I expect a dog with 1000s of pen raised birds shot over it may well have been allowed to develop a bad habit of crowding birds before it points. If guiding it is very possible the guys paying to put the birds out shoot no matter what the dog work.

Two things a guy needs is a strong recall and steadying a dog on birds at minimum through the flush and wing. Without seeing it we are all doing educated guesswork to some degree, but ideally when the dog become steady to flush, it will stand a bumped bird and the handler can catch up and release the dog to hunt on. But there may be times when sensory overload takes the young dog on a chain reaction romp (which is what we like to see in a young dog until trained otherwise), and that is where a strong recall is needed to break off the chase. Or alternatively a Whoa command.

Well trained and understood commands of both are needed. How much of that is already completed vs yet to be trained I am not real sure, but you want them both. And once trained and understood it allows the handler to apply low level ecollar corrections with low risk the dog negatively associates the correction with the bird ...

Once we have dog steady on planted birds and understanding the Whoa and Here commands and associated Ecollar corrections, it takes work on wild running birds to let the dog perfect its performance in maintaining contact and relocating as they run. But instilling a good consistent caution around birds is key to that - hence the training advice several of us are giving. And steady to flush helps a great deal so that the dog is not rewarded by chasing when it gets frustrated and decides to take out some running roosters.

Past that I find nothing but experience and good judgement from the Handler while working wild birds allows a young dog to perfect it. Some wild roosters are going to win the contest.

porochi
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Re: 1st GSP - questions

Post by porochi » Sat May 05, 2018 1:15 pm

Thanks. Yeah I bought him last Jan so only hunted over him half dozen times. Usually with other dogs. He's real good at backing other dog's point but not so steady to shot. He tends to creep in shortly after pointing. I've seen him nab a couple of birds that. Refused to flush before I could get to him. Those were pen raised so not surprised they sat. That might be one reason the preserve wanted to sell him, he caught too many of their client's birds himself! I'm not too
concerned because we'll hunt mostly wild birds here in KS and he won't be able to do that then. But I gotta stop his creeping habits. We're working on whoa and he does real good obeying my whoa command except when on scent. He seems to turn deaf then and he wants to catch that bird! But hey, I think these are problems I can fix. I know I got an eager hunter, works great with other dogs, not gun shy and great instincts. Appreciate the tips. As this is my first gun dog to own, I'm a blank slate.

averageguy
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Re: 1st GSP - questions

Post by averageguy » Sat May 05, 2018 2:44 pm

That is good/helpful additional information. Your dog needs the standard/normal steadiness training.

If you are going to train yourself, buying, watching and following the Perfect Start/Perfect Finish DVDs would be very worth your money. Even if you do not acquire the launchers and a source of strong flying pigeons, the instruction on how to teach and enforce Whoa with your ecollar alone would be worth the watching. It will show how to teach it away from birds and how to handle the dog while on birds as well. You will have the knowledge and confidence needed to know how and when to issue corrections to your dog around birds.

Have you looked into any dog training groups close to you? NAVHDA Chapter? They will have launchers and a source of pigeons and you might be able to find a training partner to work with.

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Re: 1st GSP - questions

Post by cjhills » Sat May 05, 2018 10:30 pm

porochi wrote:Thanks. Yeah I bought him last Jan so only hunted over him half dozen times. Usually with other dogs. He's real good at backing other dog's point but not so steady to shot. He tends to creep in shortly after pointing. I've seen him nab a couple of birds that. Refused to flush before I could get to him. Those were pen raised so not surprised they sat. That might be one reason the preserve wanted to sell him, he caught too many of their client's birds himself! I'm not too
concerned because we'll hunt mostly wild birds here in KS and he won't be able to do that then. But I gotta stop his creeping habits. We're working on whoa and he does real good obeying my whoa command except when on scent. He seems to turn deaf then and he wants to catch that bird! But hey, I think these are problems I can fix. I know I got an eager hunter, works great with other dogs, not gun shy and great instincts. Appreciate the tips. As this is my first gun dog to own, I'm a blank slate.
You are right these are problems you can fix. You are also right that you have to stop the creeping. It only gets worse and you will eventually have a dog that loves busting birds. Cheapest way is start with pigeons. A launcher is a great help. Get him steady on planted birds and stopping on a wild flush before you put him on wild birds again. You will be pretty much home free then. Don't let him back slide. Don't bet too much on him not catching wild birds. Some dogs get pretty good at that, especially hen pheasants.
The good thing is dogs are very forgiving and with a little thought and birds you can take almost any bad habit out of a talented dog.................Cj

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Re: 1st GSP - questions

Post by birddogger2 » Sat May 05, 2018 11:29 pm

Thank you for the additional info on the dog. The pieces seem to come together better, with the additional details.

I would agree with the other posters that steadiness training would seem to be a priority.

I also agree that fixing the steadiness problem you have described, should be fairly easy to do if you have pigeons and remote launchers(two units would be quite sufficient).

The key to using these launchers correctly is in the setup. Place the launchers so that you can bring the dog in perpendicular to and downwind of the launcher. The INSTANT the dog hits the scent cone, it should stop dead in its tracks and grow roots. Watch your dog like a hawk and when it enters the scent cone area, it will give you a clue as to when it scents the bird. The clue might be a turn of the head, a raising or dropping of the head, a hesitation, but the dog will tell you EXACTLY when it smells a bird, by its body language, if you look closely.

If the dog has signaled that it has smelled the bird and does not stop and grow roots, you need to launch the bird and immediately nick the dog with the e-collar. Then go to the dog, physically pick it up and move it back a couple of feet at least and gently put the dog back down and style it up on point. Push the dog's rear with the flat of your hand(firmly, but not real hard) so the dog has to dig in its front feet to keep from being pushed forward.

Then let the dog stand there for a good long time, like a full minute or more...by the watch. If the dog let down...style it back up again. Then after a good while, go out, simulate a flush and toss a pigeon and shoot your gun. Then go take the dog out of there and work another bird, or put the dog away as you see fit.

I recommend, at this stage, you train for steadiness to both wing and shot. It is just easier to get through the training. Depending on your needs, you might consider training the dog to be steady though wing, shot AND fall. Once the dog is reliable, you can always let that slide in the field, if you choose.

The dog will realize that if it does not stop and grow roots on first scent...there is no joy. If it creeps or so much as moves a toenail after establishing point, the bird goes up, he gets corrected, physically picked up and relocated farther away from the scent and made to stand there. The dog will figure it out if you give him the opportunity to.

You can do the bending process I described in the same training session, but I recommend that you train for each skill separately. Once the dog is dead broke, you can then marry the two skills during training.

Done right, you will have a dog that punches out, works the cover in front of you at a range with which you are comfortable and that will point and hold a bird until you get there.

One last item I would like you to consider before you do too much "bending". You expressed the desire to keep your dog within gun range, for the most part. This is an inefficient use of the talents and abilities of a pointing dog in my view.

As others have mentioned, the reason for having a pointing dog instead of a flushing dog is simply to have a hunting dog that will search all the available cover to the left, right and front of your line of march...so you don't have to. If the dog is reliably steady until you get there, you will discover that YOUR comfort zone, just got a whole lot bigger. I did.

If the dog can be trusted, you can let the dog cover more territory and THAT will increase your success in the field, because the more territory the dog covers, the more birds it will find. The dog, of course, has to EARN that trust first, before it is allowed that greater degree of freedom. That takes time and repetition, but it is soooo worth the effort.

I will give you a scenario to think about. Your dog is hunting ahead and goes up over a hill, out of sight. You start to worry a bit, so you start up that hill. No dog. You worry a little more as you walk farther up that hill. Still no dog. Just when you start to go into panic mode, you crest that hill and what do you see??

You see your missing dog... is not missing at all...but standing there like a Marine Major on a parade ground...locked up on point, just waiting...FOR YOU. That is one of the most satisfying and gratifying scenes a pointing dog bird hunter can experience.

However, if you can't trust the dog, you can't let him go over that hill in the first place...

soooo you may never know that mixture of relief and joy and pride that happens when you pop over that hill and find the dog on the back side, just waiting for you to get there and do your part.

That is what makes those hours of training all worth it, to me. I hope, for you as well.

Enjoy.

RayG

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Re: 1st GSP - questions

Post by cjhills » Sun May 06, 2018 5:59 am

birddogger2 wrote:Thank you for the additional info on the dog. The pieces seem to come together better, with the additional details.

I would agree with the other posters that steadiness training would seem to be a priority.

I also agree that fixing the steadiness problem you have described, should be fairly easy to do if you have pigeons and remote launchers(two units would be quite sufficient).

The key to using these launchers correctly is in the setup. Place the launchers so that you can bring the dog in perpendicular to and downwind of the launcher. The INSTANT the dog hits the scent cone, it should stop dead in its tracks and grow roots. Watch your dog like a hawk and when it enters the scent cone area, it will give you a clue as to when it scents the bird. The clue might be a turn of the head, a raising or dropping of the head, a hesitation, but the dog will tell you EXACTLY when it smells a bird, by its body language, if you look closely.

If the dog has signaled that it has smelled the bird and does not stop and grow roots, you need to launch the bird and immediately nick the dog with the e-collar. Then go to the dog, physically pick it up and move it back a couple of feet at least and gently put the dog back down and style it up on point. Push the dog's rear with the flat of your hand(firmly, but not real hard) so the dog has to dig in its front feet to keep from being pushed forward.

Then let the dog stand there for a good long time, like a full minute or more...by the watch. If the dog let down...style it back up again. Then after a good while, go out, simulate a flush and toss a pigeon and shoot your gun. Then go take the dog out of there and work another bird, or put the dog away as you see fit.

I recommend, at this stage, you train for steadiness to both wing and shot. It is just easier to get through the training. Depending on your needs, you might consider training the dog to be steady though wing, shot AND fall. Once the dog is reliable, you can always let that slide in the field, if you choose.

The dog will realize that if it does not stop and grow roots on first scent...there is no joy. If it creeps or so much as moves a toenail after establishing point, the bird goes up, he gets corrected, physically picked up and relocated farther away from the scent and made to stand there. The dog will figure it out if you give him the opportunity to.

You can do the bending process I described in the same training session, but I recommend that you train for each skill separately. Once the dog is dead broke, you can then marry the two skills during training.

Done right, you will have a dog that punches out, works the cover in front of you at a range with which you are comfortable and that will point and hold a bird until you get there.

One last item I would like you to consider before you do too much "bending". You expressed the desire to keep your dog within gun range, for the most part. This is an inefficient use of the talents and abilities of a pointing dog in my view.

As others have mentioned, the reason for having a pointing dog instead of a flushing dog is simply to have a hunting dog that will search all the available cover to the left, right and front of your line of march...so you don't have to. If the dog is reliably steady until you get there, you will discover that YOUR comfort zone, just got a whole lot bigger. I did.

If the dog can be trusted, you can let the dog cover more territory and THAT will increase your success in the field, because the more territory the dog covers, the more birds it will find. The dog, of course, has to EARN that trust first, before it is allowed that greater degree of freedom. That takes time and repetition, but it is soooo worth the effort.

I will give you a scenario to think about. Your dog is hunting ahead and goes up over a hill, out of sight. You start to worry a bit, so you start up that hill. No dog. You worry a little more as you walk farther up that hill. Still no dog. Just when you start to go into panic mode, you crest that hill and what do you see??

You see your missing dog... is not missing at all...but standing there like a Marine Major on a parade ground...locked up on point, just waiting...FOR YOU. That is one of the most satisfying and gratifying scenes a pointing dog bird hunter can experience.

However, if you can't trust the dog, you can't let him go over that hill in the first place...

soooo you may never know that mixture of relief and joy and pride that happens when you pop over that hill and find the dog on the back side, just waiting for you to get there and do your part.

That is what makes those hours of training all worth it, to me. I hope, for you as well.

Enjoy.

RayG
This is pretty much right on. Except for one thing. How do you stop the chaser when you launch the bird.You have to have a reliable stop on the dog. If not, he will just chase the bird. Does the nick with the collar stop the dog? Is he on a checkcord? Launching the bird will only enforce the chase if you can't stop the dog. You can't walk to him and set him back if he chases. How we do that is the question. He must know a bird in the air means stop and he does not get the bird...................Cj

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Re: 1st GSP - questions

Post by birddogger2 » Sun May 06, 2018 10:19 am

cjhills wrote:
birddogger2 wrote:Thank you for the additional info on the dog. The pieces seem to come together better, with the additional details.

I would agree with the other posters that steadiness training would seem to be a priority.

I also agree that fixing the steadiness problem you have described, should be fairly easy to do if you have pigeons and remote launchers(two units would be quite sufficient).

The key to using these launchers correctly is in the setup. Place the launchers so that you can bring the dog in perpendicular to and downwind of the launcher. The INSTANT the dog hits the scent cone, it should stop dead in its tracks and grow roots. Watch your dog like a hawk and when it enters the scent cone area, it will give you a clue as to when it scents the bird. The clue might be a turn of the head, a raising or dropping of the head, a hesitation, but the dog will tell you EXACTLY when it smells a bird, by its body language, if you look closely.

If the dog has signaled that it has smelled the bird and does not stop and grow roots, you need to launch the bird and immediately nick the dog with the e-collar. Then go to the dog, physically pick it up and move it back a couple of feet at least and gently put the dog back down and style it up on point. Push the dog's rear with the flat of your hand(firmly, but not real hard) so the dog has to dig in its front feet to keep from being pushed forward.

Then let the dog stand there for a good long time, like a full minute or more...by the watch. If the dog let down...style it back up again. Then after a good while, go out, simulate a flush and toss a pigeon and shoot your gun. Then go take the dog out of there and work another bird, or put the dog away as you see fit.

I recommend, at this stage, you train for steadiness to both wing and shot. It is just easier to get through the training. Depending on your needs, you might consider training the dog to be steady though wing, shot AND fall. Once the dog is reliable, you can always let that slide in the field, if you choose.

The dog will realize that if it does not stop and grow roots on first scent...there is no joy. If it creeps or so much as moves a toenail after establishing point, the bird goes up, he gets corrected, physically picked up and relocated farther away from the scent and made to stand there. The dog will figure it out if you give him the opportunity to.

You can do the bending process I described in the same training session, but I recommend that you train for each skill separately. Once the dog is dead broke, you can then marry the two skills during training.

Done right, you will have a dog that punches out, works the cover in front of you at a range with which you are comfortable and that will point and hold a bird until you get there.

One last item I would like you to consider before you do too much "bending". You expressed the desire to keep your dog within gun range, for the most part. This is an inefficient use of the talents and abilities of a pointing dog in my view.

As others have mentioned, the reason for having a pointing dog instead of a flushing dog is simply to have a hunting dog that will search all the available cover to the left, right and front of your line of march...so you don't have to. If the dog is reliably steady until you get there, you will discover that YOUR comfort zone, just got a whole lot bigger. I did.

If the dog can be trusted, you can let the dog cover more territory and THAT will increase your success in the field, because the more territory the dog covers, the more birds it will find. The dog, of course, has to EARN that trust first, before it is allowed that greater degree of freedom. That takes time and repetition, but it is soooo worth the effort.

I will give you a scenario to think about. Your dog is hunting ahead and goes up over a hill, out of sight. You start to worry a bit, so you start up that hill. No dog. You worry a little more as you walk farther up that hill. Still no dog. Just when you start to go into panic mode, you crest that hill and what do you see??

You see your missing dog... is not missing at all...but standing there like a Marine Major on a parade ground...locked up on point, just waiting...FOR YOU. That is one of the most satisfying and gratifying scenes a pointing dog bird hunter can experience.

However, if you can't trust the dog, you can't let him go over that hill in the first place...

soooo you may never know that mixture of relief and joy and pride that happens when you pop over that hill and find the dog on the back side, just waiting for you to get there and do your part.

That is what makes those hours of training all worth it, to me. I hope, for you as well.

Enjoy.

RayG
This is pretty much right on. Except for one thing. How do you stop the chaser when you launch the bird.You have to have a reliable stop on the dog. If not, he will just chase the bird. Does the nick with the collar stop the dog? Is he on a checkcord? Launching the bird will only enforce the chase if you can't stop the dog. You can't walk to him and set him back if he chases. How we do that is the question. He must know a bird in the air means stop and he does not get the bird...................Cj
To answer the question posed... very often when using pigeons out of remote releasers...sometimes the answer is YES...a nick or two or three in fairly quick succession... will stop a dog that has started to chase. This is especially true if the trainer has done a goodly amount of heel/whoa work in the yard. I would certainly opt to try the e-collar nick first, because if it works, it is quite possibly the lowest pressure option.

Of course there are multiple options that may be appropriate for the dog.

Three non e-collar options are: A trailing checkcord can be tied off to a fencepost or tree, if the trainer has positioned the launcher within reach of one. The trainer can have put a prong or pinch collar on the dog and when the dog establishes point, can switch the checkcord from the flat collar to the correction collar, prior to "flushing". And lastly, of course, the trainer can simply get hold of the end of the checkcord and hold on when they launch the bird from the remote trap.

The e-collar correction options are similarly varied and very much depend on just exactly what the dog has been prepared for and just exactly what the dog is doing that requires correction.

There are all levels and all manner of correction techniques possible and available to the trainer. It is up to them to figure out which will be the most effective for that particular dog, at that particular point in its training and which methods and levels they themselves are comfortable and confident in employing.

I personally try not to use more pressure than is necessary to get the dog to do what I want...the way I want. Why use sledgehammer when a framing hammer will do? Why use a framing hammer when a tack hammer will do?

However, like most amateurs, I am limited by my experience in that I am quite comfortable with some training methods and not, so much, with some others. I also cannot see how a dog reacts on the internet, so I hesitate to recommend methods that may do more harm than good.

RayG

averageguy
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Re: 1st GSP - questions

Post by averageguy » Sun May 06, 2018 12:02 pm

Excellent Post Ray G.

porochi
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Re: 1st GSP - questions

Post by porochi » Sun May 06, 2018 12:23 pm

Pigeons/launchers sound effective, but pretty elaborate. I'm not sure where I can do that sort of training around here. I might have to spring for the pro training in the end. Last preserve hunt he pointed a pheasant, it flushed, was a low flyer and my dog bolted after it. One of the guys I was with shot it anyway, barely 3 over my dog's head. My dog (and the other hunter) are darn lucky only the pheasant was shot. That incident convinced me I gotta get this fixed. While I'd never shoot a low flying bird just over a dog's head, I can't control what other hunter's do. Here in KS it's hard to be a solo act when hunting pheasant/quail, some of the territory we hunt is massive, full sections of CRP, so I usually hunt with several others and their dogs, sometimes upwards of a dozen or more hunters and dogs, and I don't always know everyone I'm with. Although now that I own my own dog, and after that recent experience seeing him nearly get shot, I'm going to be a lot more careful about who I hunt with. Before, when I didn't own a dog, I was just happy to get to hunt.

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Re: 1st GSP - questions

Post by cjhills » Sun May 06, 2018 2:18 pm

When you get your dog steady to wing and you can hunt the large areas by yourself or with 1 or 2 partners with dogs quite effectively. Hunting with larger groups usually ends up being a free for all with people shooting every thing that flies and sometimes dogs. If you plan to have a steady dog you need to avoid that situation. Don't hunt your dog with flushers and chasers. If you have not done so it would be a good idea to hunt or train with somebody who has steady dogs to see how it works. Also if you are not familiar with a dog that honors you need to see how good that works. Maybe attend a AKC hunt test ad watch a finished dog handle the bird work. It can be a eye opening experience.
You have the potential to have a very nice dog........................Cj

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Re: 1st GSP - questions

Post by birddogger2 » Sun May 06, 2018 4:07 pm

porochi wrote:Pigeons/launchers sound effective, but pretty elaborate. I'm not sure where I can do that sort of training around here. I might have to spring for the pro training in the end. Last preserve hunt he pointed a pheasant, it flushed, was a low flyer and my dog bolted after it. One of the guys I was with shot it anyway, barely 3 over my dog's head. My dog (and the other hunter) are darn lucky only the pheasant was shot. That incident convinced me I gotta get this fixed. While I'd never shoot a low flying bird just over a dog's head, I can't control what other hunter's do. Here in KS it's hard to be a solo act when hunting pheasant/quail, some of the territory we hunt is massive, full sections of CRP, so I usually hunt with several others and their dogs, sometimes upwards of a dozen or more hunters and dogs, and I don't always know everyone I'm with. Although now that I own my own dog, and after that recent experience seeing him nearly get shot, I'm going to be a lot more careful about who I hunt with. Before, when I didn't own a dog, I was just happy to get to hunt.
porochi -

You can buy a pair of remote launchers for about $5 - 600, brand new. When you are done you can sell them for about half that. Pigeons can be had for about $5, or less, per bird. If you want to use some other game bird, like chuckar, the cost per bird will not be more than $8-10 per bird. Maybe you will need 20-30 birds in total. Once the dog is pretty well broke, you can use the same pigeons or chucker or hen pheasant over and over by fitting the birds with restraints. I use leg restraints attached to a 50 ft. cord that is attached to a weight. The bird will fly off and when it hits the end of the cord, it will drop out of the sky. If I time the shot right, it appears that the bird has been shot out of the sky. Steady to wing, shot AND fall. THAT is a broke dog that is a pleasure to hunt over.

A pro trainer will cost you about $4-500 per month for about three months and I'll just say that all bird dog trainers are not created equal. Some are well worth the money they charge...some...not so much.

You can do this and you will have a better dog when you are done because it will be doing it ...for you.

As far as the group hunt thing goes...
I do not hunt with large groups. never have...never will. If I were hunting cornfields, I would do the driver/blocker thing but I would leave the pointing dogs in the box.

The most I ever hunted with, using bird dogs, is 3 other guns and each one of them I trusted implicitly. And to be honest...4 is about one too many. I prefer two guns. Two good dogs down at one time is plenty of dog power. If I hunted with someone who did not hunt with the safety of the dogs foremost in their minds...I did not hunt with them again.
No excuse for shooting a dog. None. No bird is worth it. If there ain't blue sky under the bird's belly, you don't pull the trigger. Period.

Just one man's opinion.

RayG

averageguy
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Re: 1st GSP - questions

Post by averageguy » Sun May 06, 2018 5:32 pm

If you are going to pursue the training yourself, you will be so much more prepared and effective if you buy the Perfect Start and Perfect Finish DVDs. None of us can type enough words here to remotely cover what you will learn and understand from those DVDs. And you can easily sell them later if you do not want to keep them around, and may be able to buy them used yourself.

If you have, build or acquire a pigeon coop you can use homing pigeons for training and cut your cost of birds way down until you get to the stage where you need some shooter pigeons. My two Coops are overflowing with a constant string of squabs and I will be seeking to get rid of some of them soon, as an example of where you can come up with them. Craigslist commonly has them for sale and that is where I found the 10 young homers I started my coop with as well as a source of feral shooter pigeons.

Before I built my coops I used two extra large wire dog crates with chicken wire over the top set on saw horses inside my machine shed. I could keep 30 feral pigeons at a time that way. That approach lets a lot of $5 pigeons fly away vs using homers over and over, but still not a big cost in the scheme of training yourself vs paying a pro.

I started hunting CRP when it first came about and have ever since. I have done it alone with a single dog successfully for decades. It is my number one favorite way to hunt wild rooster pheasants. Let the dog hunt into the wind and follow the dog to the birds, hunting as silently as possible. I have avoided hunting in large groups for my entire hunting pursuits. It is not the experience I seek when hunting.

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Re: 1st GSP - questions

Post by cjhills » Mon May 07, 2018 6:15 am

One other thing. You really don't need launchers to steady a dog and especially not two. Sometimes they cause as many problems as they solve. It does take more birds but you can buy a lot of birds for the cost of launchers. You can do most of the steady training in the yard. You can stand him on a place board or anything that gives him a boundary. A plastic bin works good or a tire with a piece of plywood bolted to it. You need some way to restrict a pigeon's flight, with hobble that you can get at dog training suppliers. Like Lion Country Supply. Put a checkcord on him, stand him on the board, take a pigeon on a string and toss it. when he chases set him back on the board and repeat. Use your imagination to figure out ways to throw the bird, it would definitely help to have a loft that the pigeons will go back to. you can swing the pigeon around on a string. Be careful not to let him catch it. You are going to have to throw some and let them fly away. Eventually stop him with light ecollar. Finding a trainer nearby that would work with you at an hourly rate would be your best bet. Once the dog gets the point that a bird in the air means stop and a low ecollar stim will stop him, you are on your way the training is fun then you can take him to the field with planted birds and hunt with him. Plant the birds at the distances you would like the dog to hunt and you can somewhat control his range. I do prefer to let the natural range come threw.
I train my first four master hunters with this method starting with the first dog I ever seen on point. I think he was right where your dog is when I started to train. It will teach you a lot about what work good and and what does not. The Perfection DVds can give you some good ideas.
These methods were fun, interesting and the repoire you can develop with your dog is great.
Meeting the challenges and seeing they dog develop are huge rewards that you will remember forever. Much better than righting checks. Of course checks work to ..........Cj

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Re: 1st GSP - questions

Post by averageguy » Mon May 07, 2018 8:21 am

No doubt there are numerous methods of training birddogs. Sounds like CJ is living proof of one that does not use launchers.

Myself - I love the method of using launchers set in natural cover to bring out a dog's natural pointing and then steadiness later in the training process.

This is my GWP pup last summer when we were training for his NAVHDA UT which he passed Prize 1 at 18 months of age working 7 birds in the upland portion of the test. He is 16 months old in the video. Not going to make the long tail guys' socks roll up and down, but I think it does provide a good illustration of how very low pressure techniques using strong flying pigeons in a launchers can accomplish a lot at an early age. In this video we had progressed to putting the pigeons in tip up cages vs the launchers which preceded it. Distance and cover between him and shot bird prevented him from getting a good mark and he was initially searching upwind of where the bird fell, but he persisted and succeeded with no help from me as I would expect him to.

Working this pup with launchers in natural cover, me saying nothing as the pup searched for and pointed the birds, or otherwise they were launched and flew away brought out and preserved his natural caution around birds. I never used a check cord for the early development. I just let the pup search for and work the birds.

Used right, I am a big fan of reliable remote control launchers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxT_jBKhm8E

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Re: 1st GSP - questions

Post by cjhills » Mon May 07, 2018 2:17 pm

Just so you are aware. I am not putting down launchers and I do use them. My point was that it can be done without them. We never have to train our pups to point. We breed them to do that. make sure you know who is handling the transmitter if you go to a training day. Having a bird launched in a puppy's face can be pretty traumatic......................Cj

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Re: 1st GSP - questions

Post by birddogger2 » Tue May 08, 2018 7:35 am

porochi -

As has been mentioned by several folks, there are many ways to get from here to there with a bird dog. I have, over the years done most of them. Depending on the dog, I may use a mixture of approaches, so some of the things I used forty years ago still have a place in the training regimen.

For getting a dog to stand for birds, there is nothing better than a couple of remote launchers and hard flying pigeons. They allow you to train, by yourself(which is HUGE), any time you choose, pretty much anywhere you choose.

Launchers, in combination with an e-collar are what I now use, after a thorough introduction to heel/whoa drills in the yard and in the field. It works and the dogs I train this way will stand like a Marine Major on a parade ground, high and tight, tall and proud and they retain all the fire and desire that God and the breeder put in there. Yours will too.

RayG

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Re: 1st GSP - questions

Post by averageguy » Tue May 08, 2018 7:45 am

birddogger2 wrote:porochi -

As has been mentioned by several folks, there are many ways to get from here to there with a bird dog. I have, over the years done most of them. Depending on the dog, I may use a mixture of approaches, so some of the things I used forty years ago still have a place in the training regimen.

For getting a dog to stand for birds, there is nothing better than a couple of remote launchers and hard flying pigeons. They allow you to train, by yourself(which is HUGE), any time you choose, pretty much anywhere you choose.

Launchers, in combination with an e-collar are what I now use, after a thorough introduction to heel/whoa drills in the yard and in the field. It works and the dogs I train this way will stand like a Marine Major on a parade ground, high and tight, tall and proud and they retain all the fire and desire that God and the breeder put in there. Yours will too.

RayG
x2 This is my 2 year old on a wild Rooster a couple of weeks ago. He pointed and then relocated on his own 3 times as the Rooster stopped and then moved each time. The Rooster held long enough for me to get this photo before it busted at the sound of me approaching in those dry weeds, plenty close enough to shoot had we been hunting.

Image

CJ - I realize your productive purpose in giving the OP an alternative to spending the money on launchers as well as your considerable experience and knowledge of the subject.

But the dog is already creeping and catching birds. Launchers are an excellent way to let the birds vs the handler convince the dog that creeping and trying to catch birds is unproductive. Which is far better than the dog stopping the behavior because the Handler disciplined the dog into it. It preserves style and engrains the behavior better when the handler is not in sight of the dog. It will also help the dog work running birds seeking to keep contact with them and get them pinned down for a point vs getting excited and taking them out.

The Whoa training done away from birds can then be added to the natural pointing and holding a point behavior to address the dog's actions when the birds flush, fly and eventually fall to the shot ...

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Re: 1st GSP - questions

Post by cjhills » Tue May 08, 2018 1:00 pm

Not disputing Anything on here it all works.
But, you make my point. As you said the dog is already chasing and catching birds. So what happens when you launch the bird, If the dog does not establish a point wnen he hits the scent. The dog chases the bird, hopefully he does not get too close and catch the bird when it is launched and hopefully he learns that he can't catch the birds.
What if the dog loves the chase so much that he never learns to stop on his own? You need to stop the dog. How you do it is your choice not if you do it. Just pointing out the fact that launchers are not the cure all people sometimes think they are. With the wrong hands on the transmitter they can cause as many problems as they solve. Sometimes they malfunction and the dog gets the bird. The pad gets so smelly that the dogs will point empty launchers from 100 yds.
You can take the chase by out tossing pigeons. If your dog is establishing point the rest is a very simple cure.
Try to keep in mind I am not here to argue training methods, just saying it can easily be done without launchers.
I believe the op should go to a trainer and see some finished dogs work. Get his dog steady and let him roll.......................Cj

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Re: 1st GSP - questions

Post by shags » Tue May 08, 2018 3:32 pm

I can affirm CJ's point of view about launchers. They are not needed to steady dogs...think about how dogs were steadied before all the electronic conveniences were available.

My young dog is a disaster with launchers. He can scent them from way off, and acts the fool when he does. Whatever you can think of that a dog can mess up with a launcher, he will do it.

What worked for him was pigeon tossing, at first on a barrel or table, then on the ground, then randomly as he scooted by in the training field. After that, work with on a cc. The old fashioned way is more labor intensive and IMO requires a bit more thinking ahead for what-ifs, but it works.

I have to add that a couple of trainers I've worked with made dang good livings out of tuning up hunting dogs whose owners let the manners slide during the season. Year after year those dogs had to repeat Grades 11 and 12 at best, and sometimes all the way back to 4th grade or so. So it seems to pay in the long run to require dogs to behave to the level you expect for the rest of its life, rather than let them slide in order to bag a bird. If that means being choosy about hunting buddies, so be it.

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Re: 1st GSP - questions

Post by averageguy » Tue May 08, 2018 3:37 pm

Caught birds using launchers- How to avoid it.

I use strong flying adult Homing pigeons for the early stages of training and then feral pigeons when I get to the stage of shooting them. I run the Homers through the launchers once to get them acclimated to being launched. I do not train on steadiness using launchers unless there is a decent wind moving. With a decent wind it is easy to detect when the dog scents the bird by working the dog in a cross wind. If it does not point and hold point the Homer is launched and it is their nature to get up high and fly out of the field. No dog is going to catch it unless the dog was allowed to get far too close before the bird was launched.

That is yet another benefit of using homing pigeons, they get up high and move on. Dogs can chase them but they will not catch them and most dogs will stop chasing because of it. If they don't then there are other methods for dealing with a hard case as you laid out in your post e.g. combining a trained Whoa command combined with bagged bird releases. Worth a try using the launchers is my thought.

As far as the launcher not working. Every time I set a bird in a launcher I test the launcher first by setting it empty and activating it with the remote, then I put the bird in and reset the launcher.

As far as a launcher scaring a dog; this dog is old enough that is a low risk, but none the less I would introduce the launcher first using the same method I use with young puppies. I set the launcher out in plain sight in my gravel parking area with a dead pigeon in it. I lead the puppy to where it can see the launcher from the upwind side at 30 to 40 yards away and I set it off. The dead pigeon goes up in the air and the puppy is allowed to run to it and claim the prize. Generally takes one drill but I will do two to make sure and the puppy immediately associates the smell and sound of the launcher with good things.

My sense from the OP's responses is that he is not inclined to buy the Training DVDs, Launchers, Pigeons it takes to train in this manner. A couple of months with a good pro trainer seems more likely which usually works well. For better or worse I do my own training but if I did not the pro trainer I would send a dog to is $850 a month plus bird fees, so the investments in the equipment items are actually pretty price competitive with the alternative.

We have given the OP good information. Hopefully he and his dog will benefit from it and become a great team in the field next season.

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Re: 1st GSP - questions

Post by tnbndr » Fri May 11, 2018 4:41 pm

You don't need a month of training with a pro. Schedule a visit with one recommended by others and work with him to solve your issues so you know how to correct problems.
You need to steady this dog to wing, shot and fall and you need him broke so he won't move once pointed even if the bird moves. You can always relocate him if you catch up and don't find a bird.
It won't take long under a pro's guidance.

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