Stud Dog Question

FrankRizzo
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Stud Dog Question

Post by FrankRizzo » Thu May 10, 2018 7:57 pm

I have a 1 1/2 year old GSP that is all black that was purchased from a professional trainer/Breeder. I was thinking about studding him out a couple times. He has sharpshooter, willow creek, river valley Dixie doo, and a bunch of other MH lines. What does one charge and we’re is the best places to advertise? Would I just be wasting my time?

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by cjhills » Thu May 10, 2018 9:27 pm

Definitely a waste of money and time if you do the health tests and xrays. All kinds of them dogs around here..........................Cj

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by FrankRizzo » Thu May 10, 2018 9:35 pm

Thanks for the reply Cj. Do you mean plenty of the lines because it took me about 2 years to find an all black Male from a breeder in MN?

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by Carolina Gundogs » Fri May 11, 2018 5:18 am

I agree with cj. In my humble opinion, Unless you have the needed health testing completed with good results and you have either been successful in the testing or field trial venues at some impressive level, you will have very little interest from advertising the dog as a stud. People who are looking to breed their good females will look for these attributes in a stud. There are many quality studs available. Anyone who is serious on producing a quality litter will not put color above performance.

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by cjhills » Fri May 11, 2018 6:22 am

FrankRizzo wrote:Thanks for the reply Cj. Do you mean plenty of the lines because it took me about 2 years to find an all black Male from a breeder in MN?
I bred my solid liver female with a black and white dog who, I think is closely related to yours. This breeding was between to very good Master titled bird dogs. I was not trying to get solid black. I was trying to get good bird dogs. I had people calling who just wanted solid black puppies. Most would not know a bird dog if they seen one. Some of the solid black Pottsiepen bred GSPs have definite personality issues which make them hard for some people to deal with. They generally are good, aggressive bird dogs.
The solid blacks are actually quite common and they are beautiful. But most are bred by first time breeders who think black is cool. Most only do it once. There is a reason why most of the the breeders you mentioned in your dogs pedigree don't breed solid black dogs. Most of the solid blacks are a spin off from these breeding programs.
I am not putting anybody's dogs down and I have seen very good solid blacks. Also I am not familiar with other black bloodlines. But if you breed for color too many other traits get ignored.
As Carolina stated you won't get quality females just because you have a black dog and you won't get quality puppies from mediocre females. Also be aware that sometimes the best planned breedings produce junk but we have to try.
Not trying to ruffle any feathers but this has been my experience and solid blacks are not worth the problems as a breeder.........Cj

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by FrankRizzo » Fri May 11, 2018 8:06 am

No feathers ruffled and please go on about what you see negative about solid black I’m very interested. That way I can pay attention to mine and correct any problems right away. I remember 20 years ago breeders without a solid liver in their stable telling me the same thing. I finally found one by (I believe his first name was) Stan Citrowski. His male was all liver and I believe direct from Germany, but don’t quote me on that.

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by FrankRizzo » Sun May 13, 2018 1:46 pm

Any advise on what to charge and places to advertise?

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by Steve007 » Sun May 13, 2018 2:41 pm

As stated, unless you get breed-appropriate health clearances (OFA certification is not given until two years of age), you are most unlikely to get inquiries from the owners of quality bitches. And some titles -- advanced hunt tests, at least -- would be indicated as well. Without these,you would indeed be wasting your time and money.

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by FrankRizzo » Sun May 13, 2018 7:27 pm

Steve007 wrote:As stated, unless you get breed-appropriate health clearances (OFA certification is not given until two years of age), you are most unlikely to get inquiries from the owners of quality bitches. And some titles -- advanced hunt tests, at least -- would be indicated as well. Without these,you would indeed be wasting your time and money.
If once I get health clearances and if I decided to get some titles. If what I read was correct are the costs of health clearances around $200 to $300 for hips and eyes? Then where would one advertise?

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by Steve007 » Mon May 14, 2018 9:15 am

You cannot do anything until your year-and-half old dog is OFA-certifed free of HD and elbows at the age of two. Get that done (plus whatever else shorthairs need) in six months, and then worry about your next step.

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by dan v » Mon May 14, 2018 9:35 am

Read this thread.

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=52948

For what it's worth. I have, a now 12 year old male Gordon Setter. He is titled like this.

2x NFC, 3x NAFC, GFC, GAFC, FC, AFC

I charged $1000 for his stud fee.

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by FrankRizzo » Mon May 14, 2018 9:42 am

Steve007 wrote:You cannot do anything until your year-and-half old dog is OFA-certifed free of HD and elbows at the age of two. Get that done (plus whatever else shorthairs need) in six months, and then worry about your next step.
Like I said before I understand that. However I’m someone who likes to plan ahead. I believe I’ve asked some very easy and simple questions and have gotten some help in PM’s so thank you people.

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by FrankRizzo » Mon May 14, 2018 9:52 am

dan v wrote:Read this thread.

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=52948

For what it's worth. I have, a now 12 year old male Gordon Setter. He is titled like this.

2x NFC, 3x NAFC, GFC, GAFC, FC, AFC

I charged $1000 for his stud fee.
Sounds like a great dog Dan and thanks for the information.

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by Pedro » Mon May 14, 2018 11:50 am

FrankRizzo wrote:I have a 1 1/2 year old GSP that is all black that was purchased from a professional trainer/Breeder. I was thinking about studding him out a couple times. He has sharpshooter, willow creek, river valley Dixie doo, and a bunch of other MH lines. What does one charge and we’re is the best places to advertise? Would I just be wasting my time?

Advertise on this site, as well as gundogcentral, gundogsonline, craigslist, wherever suits your fancy. As long as you have a pedigree, why the heck bother with hips, elbows, and eyes. The individual who's going to use your dog probably wants a certain color pup, so those health clearances are just fluff. I'd put $1,000 on there for stud fee. The Gordon guy gets that and his dog is the just the basic Gordon color.

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by FrankRizzo » Mon May 14, 2018 1:51 pm

Pedro wrote:
FrankRizzo wrote:I have a 1 1/2 year old GSP that is all black that was purchased from a professional trainer/Breeder. I was thinking about studding him out a couple times. He has sharpshooter, willow creek, river valley Dixie doo, and a bunch of other MH lines. What does one charge and we’re is the best places to advertise? Would I just be wasting my time?

Advertise on this site, as well as gundogcentral, gundogsonline, craigslist, wherever suits your fancy. As long as you have a pedigree, why the heck bother with hips, elbows, and eyes. The individual who's going to use your dog probably wants a certain color pup, so those health clearances are just fluff. I'd put $1,000 on there for stud fee. The Gordon guy gets that and his dog is the just the basic Gordon color.
Thank you for the information and I will check out those places to advertise.

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by cjhills » Mon May 14, 2018 2:46 pm

Pedro wrote:
FrankRizzo wrote:I have a 1 1/2 year old GSP that is all black that was purchased from a professional trainer/Breeder. I was thinking about studding him out a couple times. He has sharpshooter, willow creek, river valley Dixie doo, and a bunch of other MH lines. What does one charge and we’re is the best places to advertise? Would I just be wasting my time?

Advertise on this site, as well as gundogcentral, gundogsonline, craigslist, wherever suits your fancy. As long as you have a pedigree, why the heck bother with hips, elbows, and eyes. The individual who's going to use your dog probably wants a certain color pup, so those health clearances are just fluff. I'd put $1,000 on there for stud fee. The Gordon guy gets that and his dog is the just the basic Gordon color.
This post has to be a joke, I hope. Can anybody really believe that? You could have a pedigree on a dog that has every genetic problem known to man.
If Dan V'S buck was blaze Orange the price would go up Dramatically
The Black GSP with no titles might get a couple of takers 3 or 4 hundred dollars......................Cj

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by isonychia » Mon May 14, 2018 3:56 pm

Pedro wrote:
FrankRizzo wrote:I have a 1 1/2 year old GSP that is all black that was purchased from a professional trainer/Breeder. I was thinking about studding him out a couple times. He has sharpshooter, willow creek, river valley Dixie doo, and a bunch of other MH lines. What does one charge and we’re is the best places to advertise? Would I just be wasting my time?

Advertise on this site, as well as gundogcentral, gundogsonline, craigslist, wherever suits your fancy. As long as you have a pedigree, why the heck bother with hips, elbows, and eyes. The individual who's going to use your dog probably wants a certain color pup, so those health clearances are just fluff. I'd put $1,000 on there for stud fee. The Gordon guy gets that and his dog is the just the basic Gordon color.
Actually... Color is fluff in comparison to heart disease, hip dysplasia, eye problems, bid-ability, prey drive, temperament... actually yeah, color comes dead last on my list, it is worth noting it is still on the list, but it is last. Also, proven dogs with health certs get $1000 so....

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by FrankRizzo » Mon May 14, 2018 7:42 pm

I think color may have been last on the list in years past. Now you can find what ever titles you want in ever single color out there and every single health certification you want. So in the end color is actually the most important characteristic when selling pups to the public. For example let’s say I’m looking for a pup who’s parents and grandparents all received MH certification with health certifications. I can find this in any color so now it boils down to which color I prefer, this making color the most important factor. Price may also play a factor all things being equal.

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by cjhills » Mon May 14, 2018 8:37 pm

In selling a couple hundred GSP puppies. The only color preference I see is roan. Most buyers think of that as the traditional GSP. They are also the hardest to see in the field. Most buyers are not all that interested in titles anymore. More and More breeders are not titling there females because the expense is not worth it. Travel, training time, birds and entry fees a AKC MH will cost three to five grand. Then you find out nobody cares. Buyers are getting smarter they are realizing that most any dog can be titled if you spend enough time and money. Good looking, naturally talented, easily trained, healthy, functional, family oriented dogs are what most buyers want..............Cj

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by FrankRizzo » Mon May 14, 2018 9:03 pm

Cj very nice post. Still wondering what those traits in all black shorthairs are you talked about earlier.

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by cjhills » Tue May 15, 2018 5:42 am

FrankRizzo wrote:Cj very nice post. Still wondering what those traits in all black shorthairs are you talked about earlier.
Passive aggression. I did not say in all black shorthairs. I clearly stated I am not familiar with all bloodlines.
If you bred your black male with a liver and white female and got 8 puppies you would likely get 2 solid blacks, 2 solid livers, 2 liver and white and 2 black and white. One of which might be roan. So the buyer who wants a black female gets one or none to pick from. For this reason we only guarantee gender when we accept a deposit.
Some stud dog owners charge the price of a puppy. I also want to be able to negotiate with the stud owner on the fee so if we get a three to five puppy litter the cost per puppy does not get too high. I guarantee two live puppies from our stud dogs and do not collect the stud fee until the litter is born. Some breeders make no guarantees and make you pay upfront. They generally give you a free return if the breeding does not take. But your stud fee is gone puppies or not.
The only advertising that is of any value is getting your dog out to events where people can see him. Even then the bigger name stud dogs fade pretty fast .........Cj

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by FrankRizzo » Tue May 15, 2018 6:58 am

Thanks Cj. No you didn’t say all and I don’t see that trait in mine or at least I don’t see any of the examples I did a google search on.

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by MNTonester » Tue May 15, 2018 9:40 am

why the heck bother with hips, elbows, and eyes
You will find that most people desiring a stud for their female will require this certification. They may also require some genetic tests for propensity to certain diseases

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by dan v » Tue May 15, 2018 10:32 am

cjhills wrote: If Dan V'S buck was blaze Orange the price would go up Dramatically
......................Cj
You should see the colors he can produce!!!!!

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by FrankRizzo » Tue May 15, 2018 11:07 am

An example
In theory if I buy a pup from Breeder X who has done health testing on both parents, been in the breeding business for years and making the breed better every time he/she breeds shouldn’t the pup I buy from Breeder X be good to go? Or have a really really really good chance of being good to go?

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by ezzy333 » Tue May 15, 2018 11:14 am

Of course. But we will always have people who think that genetics have little to do with performance or expected performance. Years of breeding have proven them wrong but you can not make anyone believe what they don't want to.

Ezzy

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by Steve007 » Tue May 15, 2018 11:33 am

FrankRizzo wrote:An example
In theory if I buy a pup from Breeder X who has done health testing on both parents, been in the breeding business for years and making the breed better every time he/she breeds shouldn’t the pup I buy from Breeder X be good to go? Or have a really really really good chance of being good to go?

Yes. But before you breed that pup as an adult, you'd better prove he is an individual up to the standards set by his parents and breeder.

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by dan v » Tue May 15, 2018 11:51 am

FrankRizzo wrote:An example
In theory if I buy a pup from Breeder X who has done health testing on both parents, been in the breeding business for years and making the breed better every time he/she breeds shouldn’t the pup I buy from Breeder X be good to go? Or have a really really really good chance of being good to go?

Breeding dogs isn't like baking.

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by FrankRizzo » Tue May 15, 2018 11:56 am

Steve007 wrote:
FrankRizzo wrote:An example
In theory if I buy a pup from Breeder X who has done health testing on both parents, been in the breeding business for years and making the breed better every time he/she breeds shouldn’t the pup I buy from Breeder X be good to go? Or have a really really really good chance of being good to go?

Yes. But before you breed that pup as an adult, you'd better prove he is an individual up to the standards set by his parents and breeder.
What are these standards? I have assumed from the very beginning does he hunt (anything that goes with hunting), easy to train, good around kids, other people, other dogs, etc. is a given before I asked the questions in the first place.

Is there an age of the dog one should wait before studding him out?

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by cjhills » Tue May 15, 2018 1:23 pm

dan v wrote:
cjhills wrote: If Dan V'S buck was blaze Orange the price would go up Dramatically
......................Cj
You should see the colors he can produce!!!!!
Good Answer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by cjhills » Tue May 15, 2018 2:11 pm

FrankRizzo wrote:An example
In theory if I buy a pup from Breeder X who has done health testing on both parents, been in the breeding business for years and making the breed better every time he/she breeds shouldn’t the pup I buy from Breeder X be good to go? Or have a really really really good chance of being good to go?
There is nobody on god's green earth who makes the breed better every time he breeds. It just simply does not work that way. There are way to many things that can go wrong. I have yet to breed a litter I am totally satisfied with and I doubt I ever will. Dogs regress toward the mean. They do not get better. I am quite sure I know who your dog came from or at least a lot of dogs in the pedigree every breeder of these dogs or any dogs has sold pups that have had issues. Some are of little consequence. Ear infection and urinary tract infection for instance, seems to be much more common in solid color GSPs than in a white mix. You can treat this and live with it your buyers will not even know they are buying dogs that are prone to this and you may not know you are breeding dogs that are. Recessive genes pop up all the time in heavily inbreed dogs, overbites are very common in some fairly popular lines. You are not going to find them on a google search. Nobody admits to the issues, some do not even know there are issues. You will find out when your dog throws cow hocked puppies or puppies that toe out on the front or any number of things that pop up that are not quite right. breeding a dog that hunts is the easy part, most do. Getting rid of all the crap somebody bred in along the way is nearly impossible. If a breeder tells you he is improving the breed he with every litter, he is just simply not being honest. What else is he BSing about. Most of us breed a few great dogs, a lot of good dogs and a few bad dogs. All you can do is hope for the great, expect the good dog and pray you don't get the bad. Also hope you have the knowledge and experience to know the difference. There is stuff you will never learn unless you go in with your eyes wide open and be brutal about judging your breeding stock. Good Luck it' goods Don't think your Stud dog is going to save the breed, he ain't and if the reason people want to breed to him, is because he is solid black the game is over before you start .........Cj

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by bustingcover » Tue May 15, 2018 3:52 pm

Get some titles on the dog then worry about studding it out. There are way too many good titled males out there in every color. Nobody serious is going to want to take the time and money to breed to your dog just because it’s black. Plenty of time to campaign the dog then worry about how much money to start charging.

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by Middlecreek » Tue May 15, 2018 8:05 pm

Just be careful you don't breed him too often... keep the schedule to 1 female a week. You may be able to squeeze out two in one week if your waiting list is backed up too much, but thats kind of like playing with fire. Have the female owners do progesterone tests to make sure you can get in and out as quickly as possible to make room for the next.

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by JONOV » Tue May 15, 2018 10:04 pm

FrankRizzo wrote:An example
In theory if I buy a pup from Breeder X who has done health testing on both parents, been in the breeding business for years and making the breed better every time he/she breeds shouldn’t the pup I buy from Breeder X be good to go? Or have a really really really good chance of being good to go?
Is the son of a All American Big 10 linebacker guaranteed a college football scholarship? Nope, he’s not even guaranteed to start for his Highschool team. Not by a long shot.

Dogs are the same way, you aren’t mixing paint, it’s not arithmetic.

There’s a prolific VC GWP, who when bred to a VC Bitch, produced ho-hum results. That same stud has thrown fantastic litters with other less illustrious females.

Anyway, I see a lot of ads on different Facebook sites, just be ready to back the dog up with more than “I want to breed him” or “I want a puppy from him” or “his granddaddy was something special.”

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by FrankRizzo » Tue May 15, 2018 10:49 pm

JONOV wrote:
FrankRizzo wrote:An example
In theory if I buy a pup from Breeder X who has done health testing on both parents, been in the breeding business for years and making the breed better every time he/she breeds shouldn’t the pup I buy from Breeder X be good to go? Or have a really really really good chance of being good to go?
Is the son of a All American Big 10 linebacker guaranteed a college football scholarship? Nope, he’s not even guaranteed to start for his Highschool team. Not by a long shot.

Dogs are the same way, you aren’t mixing paint, it’s not arithmetic.

There’s a prolific VC GWP, who when bred to a VC Bitch, produced ho-hum results. That same stud has thrown fantastic litters with other less illustrious females.

Anyway, I see a lot of ads on different Facebook sites, just be ready to back the dog up with more than “I want to breed him” or “I want a puppy from him” or “his granddaddy was something special.”
Sorry but I’d take my chances with All American Big 10 linebacker vs Joe Blow on the Geek Squad if I was trying to breed another linebacker. If I was Big X Kennels I could ask $1000 to $1500 a pup and everything else being equal besides being Big X Kennels I should know my roll and not take a dollar out of someone else’s pocket. I believe I have a great dog, with great lines, and a color that is currently sought after ( I could be wrong) why not try and make a few dollars. I don’t want a puppy and wouldn’t his granddaddy being something special be a good thing? Could you pm me these Facebook sites to advertise on as that was more part of my original question in the first place. Thank you.
Last edited by FrankRizzo on Tue May 15, 2018 11:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by FrankRizzo » Tue May 15, 2018 11:02 pm

cjhills wrote:
FrankRizzo wrote:An example
In theory if I buy a pup from Breeder X who has done health testing on both parents, been in the breeding business for years and making the breed better every time he/she breeds shouldn’t the pup I buy from Breeder X be good to go? Or have a really really really good chance of being good to go?
There is nobody on god's green earth who makes the breed better every time he breeds. It just simply does not work that way. There are way to many things that can go wrong. I have yet to breed a litter I am totally satisfied with and I doubt I ever will. Dogs regress toward the mean. They do not get better. I am quite sure I know who your dog came from or at least a lot of dogs in the pedigree every breeder of these dogs or any dogs has sold pups that have had issues. Some are of little consequence. Ear infection and urinary tract infection for instance, seems to be much more common in solid color GSPs than in a white mix. You can treat this and live with it your buyers will not even know they are buying dogs that are prone to this and you may not know you are breeding dogs that are. Recessive genes pop up all the time in heavily inbreed dogs, overbites are very common in some fairly popular lines. You are not going to find them on a google search. Nobody admits to the issues, some do not even know there are issues. You will find out when your dog throws cow hocked puppies or puppies that toe out on the front or any number of things that pop up that are not quite right. breeding a dog that hunts is the easy part, most do. Getting rid of all the crap somebody bred in along the way is nearly impossible. If a breeder tells you he is improving the breed he with every litter, he is just simply not being honest. What else is he BSing about. Most of us breed a few great dogs, a lot of good dogs and a few bad dogs. All you can do is hope for the great, expect the good dog and pray you don't get the bad. Also hope you have the knowledge and experience to know the difference. There is stuff you will never learn unless you go in with your eyes wide open and be brutal about judging your breeding stock. Good Luck it' goods Don't think your Stud dog is going to save the breed, he ain't and if the reason people want to breed to him, is because he is solid black the game is over before you start .........Cj
The “making the breed better blah blah blah” is what I here from people like you ( not you per say) and whinning about backyard breeders. The breeder I purchased my dog from didn’t say that. I don’t think my dog is going to save the breed or that he is the greatest dog to ever live. I have yet to see one issue you have talked about in solid color GSP’s and I’ve had 4 of them......3 solid liver and now one solid black, so going on 22 years. I have never had one case of ear infection, urinary track infection, or overbite. Maybe I’m just lucky I guess. However I wouldn’t blame anyone who wanted a stud dog based on his pedigree and his color.

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by FrankRizzo » Tue May 15, 2018 11:05 pm

Middlecreek wrote:Just be careful you don't breed him too often... keep the schedule to 1 female a week. You may be able to squeeze out two in one week if your waiting list is backed up too much, but thats kind of like playing with fire. Have the female owners do progesterone tests to make sure you can get in and out as quickly as possible to make room for the next.
Thank you for the valuable information. Any info on an age when to wait to start breeding?

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by cjhills » Wed May 16, 2018 5:20 am

The " making the breed better" was your comment not mine and I find the" people like you" comment very offensive. I guarantee the breeders you talked to are not people like me. I never once said one word against a backyard breeder. I am one . I just tried to tell you some of the issues.
You can put what ever you want as a stud fee. You will get one or two females by capitalizing on the breeders reputation but that is changing and stud dogs are a dime a dozen. You won't know what he throws until you see puppies on the ground. I know the issues because In have seen them and have been very involved with the dogs in your dogs pedigree. In fact I have bred my female with one very well known dog in your dogs pedigree. Both very nice MH females. The blacks were a disaster and the studdog owner told me the black pups were different .
People tell me blacks are rare all the time, it just shows there lack of knowledge.
Good Luck...........................Cj

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by FrankRizzo » Wed May 16, 2018 6:28 am

My apologies and that is why I put (not you per say) because I didn’t mean you I meant some or most breeders. I’ve read that saying from breeders on this forum numerous times about making the breed better,or something along those lines, and that’s why if you’re not a professional stay the heck out. I never thought or said the black color is rare just sought after at this point in time and I could be wrong. However I must have the first solid black male with no issues the way it sounds from this pedigree.

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by cjhills » Wed May 16, 2018 7:22 am

FrankRizzo wrote:An example
In theory if I buy a pup from Breeder X who has done health testing on both parents, been in the breeding business for years and making the breed better every time he/she breeds shouldn’t the pup I buy from Breeder X be good to go? Or have a really really really good chance of being good to go?
" making the breed every time he breeds a litter" your comment. "Nobody on gods green earth makes the breed better every time he breeds a litter" my comment.
When you breed for color you are not making the breed better. If you go to Sharpshooter or Willow Creek, who breed many puppies every year you will not see a solid black dog in their breeding program. These are both breeders who are breeding lots of black and white puppies, are very knowledgeable in GSP breeding and bloodlines and I have discussed breeding with them, bred with their dogs, ran tests with their dogs and trained with their dogs. One of the biggest part of both kennel's business is puppies.The logical thing would seem to be A black dog in there breeding program. So why don't tey breed black dogs.
It would be hard to find a decent bred GSP that was not a fairly talented hunter, all the other issues are the problem. Until you have been there and done that you don't knowwhat you don't know.
Nothing wrong with you trying to breed your dog, thinking you will make money is unrealistic and be aware he has the potential to hurt the breed more than he helps.
The good thing is he will have no influence either way.
I bought a male puppy years back from a prominent Gsp breeder. A very nice linebred puppy. I raised him hunted him, trained him to Master level, which was easy to do because he was a talented natural dog. We bred him with our female. Had 10 very nice, talented puppies that all did well in several venues. Unforunately that was the last litter he produced that did not have puppies with overbites. My $10,000 investment went right down the drain. That is reality. Thanks ......Cj

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by JONOV » Wed May 16, 2018 7:56 am

FrankRizzo wrote:
JONOV wrote:
FrankRizzo wrote:An example
In theory if I buy a pup from Breeder X who has done health testing on both parents, been in the breeding business for years and making the breed better every time he/she breeds shouldn’t the pup I buy from Breeder X be good to go? Or have a really really really good chance of being good to go?
Is the son of a All American Big 10 linebacker guaranteed a college football scholarship? Nope, he’s not even guaranteed to start for his Highschool team. Not by a long shot.

Dogs are the same way, you aren’t mixing paint, it’s not arithmetic.

There’s a prolific VC GWP, who when bred to a VC Bitch, produced ho-hum results. That same stud has thrown fantastic litters with other less illustrious females.

Anyway, I see a lot of ads on different Facebook sites, just be ready to back the dog up with more than “I want to breed him” or “I want a puppy from him” or “his granddaddy was something special.”
Sorry but I’d take my chances with All American Big 10 linebacker vs Joe Blow on the Geek Squad if I was trying to breed another linebacker. If I was Big X Kennels I could ask $1000 to $1500 a pup and everything else being equal besides being Big X Kennels I should know my roll and not take a dollar out of someone else’s pocket. I believe I have a great dog, with great lines, and a color that is currently sought after ( I could be wrong) why not try and make a few dollars. I don’t want a puppy and wouldn’t his granddaddy being something special be a good thing? Could you pm me these Facebook sites to advertise on as that was more part of my original question in the first place. Thank you.
Sure, but Nick Saban isn't going to offer him a scholarship unless he's already an All American in High School, and Big X Kennels isn't going call you unless your dog has something besides nice bloodlines.

You can find Gundog sites all over facebook, look for bird hunting, GSP, Upland, etc, look through and you'll find them.

IF you really think the color is that desireable, why not buy a female and cash in on both ends!

Again, I think you're misjudging how desirable solid black dogs are. I don't see them being sold for more money than any other GSP. There are solid liver dogs, and black and white and most colors in between, being sold for anywhere between $650 and $1500...

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by FrankRizzo » Wed May 16, 2018 8:17 am

Yes I agree with what you’re saying and thanks for the insite on places to advertise. I know 23 years ago when I was looking for my first GSP I wanted a solid liver and it took a long time to find one. Then a solid liver won the dog show and they were everywhere. 12years ago when I was searching for another pup I looked around Breeders in Minnesota only and didn’t see a one with any black much less solid black. Now it seems like most Kennels have black in their dogs. I’m probably late to the party just like I should have been fishing yesterday. If I didn’t have time to go fishing yesterday I sure don’t have time to be raising puppies :D

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by Carolina Gundogs » Wed May 16, 2018 10:26 am

A solid black GSP does not work well in the south due to the heat. I watched a litter of 8 week old pups run around playing one spring day. The colors ranged from B&W patched to almost solid black. We quickly noticed the pups whose backs were more solid black appeared to get more hot and got hot quicker than the other pups. We put those in the shade and gave them water for safety.

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by FrankRizzo » Wed May 16, 2018 11:19 am

Carolina Gundogs wrote:A solid black GSP does not work well in the south due to the heat. I watched a litter of 8 week old pups run around playing one spring day. The colors ranged from B&W patched to almost solid black. We quickly noticed the pups whose backs were more solid black appeared to get more hot and got hot quicker than the other pups. We put those in the shade and gave them water for safety.
That seems very logical to me. Did you notice if those pups that were black were passive aggressive or any of the other negative traits other say they have seen?

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by JONOV » Wed May 16, 2018 2:25 pm

FrankRizzo wrote:
Carolina Gundogs wrote:A solid black GSP does not work well in the south due to the heat. I watched a litter of 8 week old pups run around playing one spring day. The colors ranged from B&W patched to almost solid black. We quickly noticed the pups whose backs were more solid black appeared to get more hot and got hot quicker than the other pups. We put those in the shade and gave them water for safety.
That seems very logical to me. Did you notice if those pups that were black were passive aggressive or any of the other negative traits other say they have seen?
He was accusing you of being passive aggressive. Not the dog. How could a dog be passive aggressive? Actually, My dog has shown passive aggression...work on something all week and do it 100% and at a training day or test he looks at me like a nincompoop. THat's passive aggression.

CJHills referenced Pottsiepen line GSP's/DK's. Much of the Black dogs out there have Pottsiepen lines. They were German bred dogs that performed very well, but I would assume that like any high octane, high prey drive dog, they can be a handful. And, as DK's I don't think its a stretch to say they were probably quite sharp on fur. Its often said that a DD isn't a good first time dog, and DK's are similar.

Everyone has an opinion of what makes a great dog. I've seen VC's that I wouldn't want to own, and some that are amazing. I've seen heard complaints about a well known line of GSP's; the complaint was what I found attractive about them (actually what changed my mind about GSP's.) The problem is, that when you begin to prioritize color (or even other things that I hear breeders talk about) you will, inevitably, compromise somewhere else. If you chose a litter of 8 dogs, as CJHills said, 2 blacks, 2 B&W, 2 Livers, 2 Liver/whites... Which dogs are going to be the best material to breed? And where do you put color/coat in the equation? You can't argue that they'll be equal.

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by FrankRizzo » Wed May 16, 2018 9:58 pm

Do a google search on passive aggressive dogs and it is right there in black and white on things they do. I’m not sure if you’re being sarcastic or don’t have a clue.

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by Middlecreek » Thu May 17, 2018 9:54 pm

FrankRizzo wrote:I have a 1 1/2 year old GSP that is all black that was purchased from a professional trainer/Breeder. I was thinking about studding him out a couple times. He has sharpshooter, willow creek, river valley Dixie doo, and a bunch of other MH lines. What does one charge and we’re is the best places to advertise? Would I just be wasting my time?
Yes, you would just be wasting your time and throwing away money. MH dogs are a dime a dozen and dogs with a few MH in their prdigree are even more common. No disrespect to you or your dog, but he really is unmarketable and it would be cost prohibitive with your goals in mind as you have stated. Bottom line is common is not marketable and that is exactly what you have.

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by Middlecreek » Thu May 17, 2018 10:42 pm

FrankRizzo wrote:
Middlecreek wrote:Just be careful you don't breed him too often... keep the schedule to 1 female a week. You may be able to squeeze out two in one week if your waiting list is backed up too much, but thats kind of like playing with fire. Have the female owners do progesterone tests to make sure you can get in and out as quickly as possible to make room for the next.
Thank you for the valuable information. Any info on an age when to wait to start breeding?
I was being sarcstic with my quoted response, honestly thought this thread was a joke of some kind.....

At this point your probably 3 or 4 years away from showing prospective breeders a reason to breed to your dog, so.... roughly 5 years old. That is assuming everything goes the right way between now and then.....

Just a thought, but did you ever ask yourself why it took two years to find a solid black dog?

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by cjhills » Fri May 18, 2018 7:35 am

Middlecreek wrote:
FrankRizzo wrote:
Middlecreek wrote:Just be careful you don't breed him too often... keep the schedule to 1 female a week. You may be able to squeeze out two in one week if your waiting list is backed up too much, but thats kind of like playing with fire. Have the female owners do progesterone tests to make sure you can get in and out as quickly as possible to make room for the next.
Thank you for the valuable information. Any info on an age when to wait to start breeding?
I was being sarcstic with my quoted response, honestly thought this thread was a joke of some kind.....

At this point your probably 3 or 4 years away from showing prospective breeders a reason to breed to your dog, so.... roughly 5 years old. That is assuming everything goes the right way between now and then.....

Just a thought, but did you ever ask yourself why it took two years to find a solid black dog?
Good post.
Whether you breed your dog or not is purely up to you. You will not help or hurt the breed long term. These are just comments.
Here are a couple more thoughts.
Willow Creek and Sharp Shooter are probably the most prominent GSP breeders in the Mn. and Wisc. area. At least by numbers. Puppies are a big part of their income. They could easily breed Solid Black GSPs and have a very good market for them. Neither has a Solid black dog in their breeding program. There is a reason for that. Several in fact. I do not think I have ever seen a solid dog from SS. if Willow Creek breeds any Solid black they breed very few.
Would you even be asking this question if your dog was not solid black? Black and white would give you a lot more breeding options. It would give you the option to breed with people who did not want solid.......................Cj

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by FrankRizzo » Fri May 18, 2018 2:24 pm

Thank most of you for your insight and even those that were not so nice I hope you have a good weekend.

Cj, your advise is always welcome. If he wasn’t all black I probably wouldn’t have actively sought out advice on were one could advertise (which very few people were even kind enough to answer).

I wasn’t looking to get rich by any means or make it a living. But to get a few dollars back from the cost so far from owning him. No big deal either way as I don’t need the money. But I already have a planned $500 breeding coming up and I haven’t even began to advertise as I’ve been too busy. Hope to make a couple $1000.

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