Stud Dog Question

FrankRizzo
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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by FrankRizzo » Fri May 18, 2018 2:36 pm

Cj,

Could you list out the “several issues” you keep talking about. I only caught the passive aggressive one. Sorry if you said them and I missed it. I also remember when talking with you that you didn’t like the prey eyes (I think that is what you called them) like Willow Creek has in their black dog/s. I told you on the phone I wanted a solid black dog and you never spoke of these issues to me. We talked for a half hour to an hour. Did you just learn of them within the past couple years? Thank you.

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Sharon
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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by Sharon » Fri May 18, 2018 2:39 pm

FrankRizzo wrote:Thank most of you for your insight and even those that were not so nice I hope you have a good weekend.

Cj, your advise is always welcome. If he wasn’t all black I probably wouldn’t have actively sought out advice on were one could advertise (which very few people were even kind enough to answer).

I wasn’t looking to get rich by any means or make it a living. But to get a few dollars back from the cost so far from owning him. No big deal either way as I don’t need the money. But I already have a planned $500 breeding coming up and I haven’t even began to advertise as I’ve been too busy. Hope to make a couple $1000.
I kept an eye on this thread as this is always a hot topic. I thought it was an excellent thread . Often one will get opinions they don't like , but that is what a forum is about. I saw nothing nasty posted. If you ever see something posted that you think is unacceptable PM me and I'll have a look at it.

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by FrankRizzo » Fri May 18, 2018 2:55 pm

Sharon wrote:
FrankRizzo wrote:Thank most of you for your insight and even those that were not so nice I hope you have a good weekend.

Cj, your advise is always welcome. If he wasn’t all black I probably wouldn’t have actively sought out advice on were one could advertise (which very few people were even kind enough to answer).

I wasn’t looking to get rich by any means or make it a living. But to get a few dollars back from the cost so far from owning him. No big deal either way as I don’t need the money. But I already have a planned $500 breeding coming up and I haven’t even began to advertise as I’ve been too busy. Hope to make a couple $1000.
I kept an eye on this thread as this is always a hot topic. I thought it was an excellent thread . Often one will get opinions they don't like , but that is what a forum is about. I saw nothing nasty posted. If you ever see something posted that you think is unacceptable PM me and I'll have a look at it.
I didn’t see anything nasty or unacceptable either. From your statement that this is always a hot topic.....Sorry I did not know that.

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by Steve007 » Fri May 18, 2018 4:05 pm

FrankRizzo wrote: I already have a planned $500 breeding coming up and I haven’t even began to advertise as I’ve been too busy.
Year-and-a-half old dog, unproven, no credentials, no x-rays? $500? Define "planned".

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by cjhills » Fri May 18, 2018 7:11 pm

FrankRizzo wrote:Cj,

Could you list out the “several issues” you keep talking about. I only caught the passive aggressive one. Sorry if you said them and I missed it. I also remember when talking with you that you didn’t like the prey eyes (I think that is what you called them) like Willow Creek has in their black dog/s. I told you on the phone I wanted a solid black dog and you never spoke of these issues to me. We talked for a half hour to an hour. Did you just learn of them within the past couple years? Thank you.
I have no idea what "prey eyes" are. I don't like yellow eyes but you get them with roan. Never heard them called prey eyes.
Actually you are right, I did not know that the black dogs were different until I bred a litter with four blacks. I knew at five weeks they were not like my usual puppies. I am not going into that any more. But the stud dog owner absolutely agreed with me told me needed to be careful who you sell them to when I got two back. I had to retrain and rehome them.
It is just part of the learning process. Hope the lessons don't get to expensive. Are you responsible for what kind of puppies your stud dog throws. I think you are. The stud dog owner did not charge me a stud fee.
That is my last word on this subject.........Cj

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by FrankRizzo » Fri May 18, 2018 10:55 pm

Steve007 wrote:
FrankRizzo wrote: I already have a planned $500 breeding coming up and I haven’t even began to advertise as I’ve been too busy.
Year-and-a-half old dog, unproven, no credentials, no x-rays? $500? Define "planned".
Well I was at a local “veterans hunt for free” last weekend and the Game Farm it was held at asked me to bring my dogs for veterans who didn’t have dogs. My 12 year old GSP went out for one hunt and then I brought out the bad black dog, that has issues but we can’t speak of these magic issues, and proceeded to point and retrieve to hand chuckar after chuckar. The unproven, no credentials mongrel turned a few heads. Most people there had never seen a black shorthair (but of course they don’t know squat about dogs). One individual asked if I’d consider breeding. I said are you sure these black dogs I’m told have a ton of issues and other breeders run from them, as the guy was petting the wild beast. We agreed on $500 when his shorthair came into heat and I said ok. Will it happen.....maybe and maybe not but that is what I call planned.

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by Middlecreek » Fri May 18, 2018 11:42 pm

Could you please post a few pictures of your dog on point?

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Urban_Redneck
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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by Urban_Redneck » Sat May 19, 2018 12:56 am

Sounds like you’re in a hurry to make some cash from your dog.... doodle him :D

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by FrankRizzo » Sat May 19, 2018 8:52 am

Middlecreek wrote:Could you please post a few pictures of your dog on point?
Good looking dog right?
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FrankRizzo
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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by FrankRizzo » Sat May 19, 2018 8:54 am

Urban_Redneck wrote:Sounds like you’re in a hurry to make some cash from your dog.... doodle him :D
Why is that? I could care less if he makes any money. But if it works out great.

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by birddogger2 » Sun May 20, 2018 12:50 pm

Guys -

I see absolutely nothing wrong with breeding self colored dogs with the goal of producing additional self colored dogs...as long as the primary function of the dog is considered as well.

A hunting dog should, of course, be bred first and foremost to improve or perpetuate the hunting abilities of the breed. However, breeding two good hunting dogs, who happen to be self colored...or mostly white...or dark roan...or large, long and leggy...or or small and slight and fast as lightning...or whatever else happens to appeal to the eye of the breeder... is, and should be perfectly acceptable.

I personally have a soft spot for black and white pointers. Always have...always will.

They, of course, have to be good hunters and do a bunch of other things well...but If two dogs did all that just exactly the same, looked just the same and acted just the same... and one was liver and white and the other was black and white... I'd want to hunt behind the black and white.

So if someone has the desire to breed all black shorthairs that hunt the way shorthairs are supposed to hunt...I say God bless, good luck and go for it.

I think folks may be well served to remember that a few hundred years ago, dedicated setter breeders produced Gordon Setters, Irish red and White, Irish and English Setters from much the same root stock, for no other reason than they chose to do so.

I am reminded of the recognized description of the pointer which states in part "a good pointer cannot be a bad color".

But that is just me.

FWIW, I saw an all black shorthair female a few times at local trials...maybe five years ago or so. She was a heck of a nice dog...a little small for my taste, but a very nice dog in every way. She was a whole lot easier to see than some of the heavy roan dogs on that trainer's string and she sure could carry the mail.

RayG

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by Steve007 » Sun May 20, 2018 1:19 pm

Ray,I thought this was about an individual dog with no credentials or health clearances rather the concept of various preferred colors. Seems you're jumping subjects. But on the other hand, it IS the internet. :|

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by art hubbard » Sun May 20, 2018 1:46 pm

Well here we go, my dogs color is better than yours! I have owned in my 65 years GSPs of all colors and yet to find that one color is better than the next. I have owned several black shorthairs and they were as good as they get. Presently I have a solid black male and a liver and white female. No difference in ability or disposition. There must have been a reason that the Germans brought in the black Arkwrights pointers from Prussia and sent their white ones to Denmark and other European nations. They tried to breed the white out of the shorthair but little did they
know in those days that you cannot breed the whiteout of the the Great German Shorthair Pointer...

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by birddogger2 » Sun May 20, 2018 8:03 pm

Steve007 wrote:Ray,I thought this was about an individual dog with no credentials or health clearances rather the concept of various preferred colors. Seems you're jumping subjects. But on the other hand, it IS the internet. :|
I don't think I am that far afield regarding this discussion. There were a whole lot of negative vibes put forth about the color of the dog being all black. I do think that some folks jumped to the conclusion that the OP was primarily concerned with breeding for color. That is mostly what I was addressing.

There are plenty of good dogs that never competed, and if a dog can run and hunt to the limits for two or more hours and be ready to rock and roll the next day... medical clearances are of limited value IMHO, because the dog's performance provides all the medical evidence necessary. The fact that it can get the job done in the field is still a fact even though the dog may never have entered a test or trial in its life.

Of course it is very much more difficult for a non- titled dog to attract folks with good females... I get that, and so does most of the bird dog world. You MUST see such a dog at work to appreciate it since there is no objective evidence (such as trial wins or test passes). Ideally, IMO, one should see a dog work before sing them as a stud...regardless.

But when I see a good bird dog doing what it does best...whether it is at a trial or in the hunting field, well...a good dog is a good dog.

RayG

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by FrankRizzo » Mon May 21, 2018 9:11 am

Thank you Ray very nicely put.

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by Steve007 » Mon May 21, 2018 9:14 am

birddogger2 wrote: if a dog can run and hunt to the limits for two or more hours and be ready to rock and roll the next day... medical clearances are of limited value IMHO, because the dog's performance provides all the medical evidence necessary.
Ray,this should go under a separate thread, but I'm busy at work. I'm surprised to hear you speaking complete balderdash. Scores of generations of shooting Pointers who can't perform may well have changed the equation for FT-bred Pointers, but in other breeds, your contention as stated above is just nuts.

There are plenty of hereditary diseases in dogs that do not show up until later in life, but can be tested for. PRA (Progressive Retinal Atrophy) typically affects middle aged to older dogs. For that matter, youthful enthusiasm and good conditioning can effectively overcome even severe hip dysplasia in a young dog...until the dog breaks down in middle age after it has reproduced.

If your goal is short-term field trialing or hunting with a disposable young dog, I guess it doesn't matter. But the significant number of genetic health problems--depending on the breed--means that not getting medical clearances in a dog you intend to breed with the intention of a long and useful life for the progeny is just not being responsible. And paying money to use a non-health-cleared stud -- again, specific clearances depending on the breed--- is just plain ignorant.

I'm surprised to see a man of your knowledge and general good sense posting something like this. The dog world encompasses more than FT-bred Pointers.

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by cjhills » Mon May 21, 2018 11:12 am

birddogger2 wrote: if a dog can run and hunt to the limits for two or more hours and be ready to rock and roll the next day... medical clearances are of limited value IMHO, because the dog's performance provides all the medical evidence necessary.
Steve007 wrote:

Ray,this should go under a separate thread, but I'm busy at work. I'm surprised to hear you speaking complete balderdash. Scores of generations of shooting Pointers who can't perform may well have changed the equation for FT-bred Pointers, but in other breeds, your contention as stated above is just nuts.

There are plenty of hereditary diseases in dogs that do not show up until later in life, but can be tested for. PRA (Progressive Retinal Atrophy) typically affects middle aged to older dogs. For that matter, youthful enthusiasm and good conditioning can effectively overcome even severe hip dysplasia in a young dog...until the dog breaks down in middle age after it has reproduced.

If your goal is short-term field trialing or hunting with a disposable young dog, I guess it doesn't matter. But the significant number of genetic health problems--depending on the breed--means that not getting medical clearances in a dog you intend to breed with the intention of a long and useful life for the progeny is just not being responsible. And paying money to use a non-health-cleared stud -- again, specific clearances depending on the breed--- is just plain ignorant.

I'm surprised to see a man of your knowledge and general good sense posting something like this. The dog world encompasses more than FT-bred Pointers.[/quote]


Steve0:
Thanks. you are exactly right. I wanted to say that but I am out..................Cj

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by isonychia » Mon May 21, 2018 2:20 pm

I have a brittany who was and is still hunting up a storm, 2 hrs is actually our new limit, with mitral valve insufficiency at 7 years old. 2 hrs is nothing like what we hunted in the past. I hunted him this past fall over the course of 7 days, 5 total hunt days and probably an average of 4 hours each of those days, can't remember fully but with desert quail, the fact that his heart held up better than his feet says a lot and makes me really optimistic. I say, if you don't want to have the health checks done but think that living the life is all of the proof you need, freeze his sperm and breed him when he dies at the ripe old age of 13+

Either that or be willing to compensate every single person who buys your pup and ends up having hereditary issues by refunding their money and or taking their dog back. Either way, if that were to happen, you have to live with the fact that they got the short end of the stick.

Seriously, saying that a healthy 3 year old dog is proof that genetic issues don't exist is like saying just because a 16 year old doesn't have parkinsons or ALS or heart disease blah blah blah... means his kids won't have it.

Is anyone else starting to think this is just a troll hangout now?

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by Sharon » Mon May 21, 2018 3:02 pm

cjhills wrote:
birddogger2 wrote: if a dog can run and hunt to the limits for two or more hours and be ready to rock and roll the next day... medical clearances are of limited value IMHO, because the dog's performance provides all the medical evidence necessary.
Steve007 wrote:

Ray,this should go under a separate thread, but I'm busy at work. I'm surprised to hear you speaking complete balderdash. Scores of generations of shooting Pointers who can't perform may well have changed the equation for FT-bred Pointers, but in other breeds, your contention as stated above is just nuts.

There are plenty of hereditary diseases in dogs that do not show up until later in life, but can be tested for. PRA (Progressive Retinal Atrophy) typically affects middle aged to older dogs. For that matter, youthful enthusiasm and good conditioning can effectively overcome even severe hip dysplasia in a young dog...until the dog breaks down in middle age after it has reproduced.

If your goal is short-term field trialing or hunting with a disposable young dog, I guess it doesn't matter. But the significant number of genetic health problems--depending on the breed--means that not getting medical clearances in a dog you intend to breed with the intention of a long and useful life for the progeny is just not being responsible. And paying money to use a non-health-cleared stud -- again, specific clearances depending on the breed--- is just plain ignorant.

I'm surprised to see a man of your knowledge and general good sense posting something like this. The dog world encompasses more than FT-bred Pointers.
Steve0:
Thanks. you are exactly right. I wanted to say that but I am out..................Cj[/quote]
.................................

No need for personal attacks Steve . Just your opinion, without personal attacks, is sufficient.

(Maybe it is time to close this thread? I think everything that could be said has been said.)

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by Steve007 » Mon May 21, 2018 3:18 pm

I believe I spoke well of Ray, whom I hold in high regard. It is his opinion on this matter--presuming it is his opinion, rather than incorrect phasing on his part or poor understanding of his viewpoint on mine-- that is totally provably incorrect. Posting such things where new or uninformed people might see them is not in the best interests of anyone concerned with healthy dogs with a long working life. What's wrong with that?

This thread should be kept open for his reply. Perhaps I have misunderstood him. And if dogdr chooses to post,it should be instructive as well.

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by FrankRizzo » Mon May 21, 2018 3:24 pm

isonychia wrote:I have a brittany who was and is still hunting up a storm, 2 hrs is actually our new limit, with mitral valve insufficiency at 7 years old. 2 hrs is nothing like what we hunted in the past. I hunted him this past fall over the course of 7 days, 5 total hunt days and probably an average of 4 hours each of those days, can't remember fully but with desert quail, the fact that his heart held up better than his feet says a lot and makes me really optimistic. I say, if you don't want to have the health checks done but think that living the life is all of the proof you need, freeze his sperm and breed him when he dies at the ripe old age of 13+

Either that or be willing to compensate every single person who buys your pup and ends up having hereditary issues by refunding their money and or taking their dog back. Either way, if that were to happen, you have to live with the fact that they got the short end of the stick. i don’t think wether a dog has received certain health clearance or not does it mean some type of genetic disease could still be passed on. IMHO it’s a chance you take. Pay $1000-$1500 from a professional breeder and you could still have problems, maybe less chances. Pay $300-$700 without all the health clearances and you may still have genetic issues. Why anyone thinks it’s someone else’s responsibility for the choice someone makes is beyond me.

The parents of my dog had health clearances, so I guess I’m going to take a chance he’s good to go. If someone chooses to use him as a Stud it should be their responsibility. That person could have chosen to pay more, made sure the Stud had this title and that title, health clearances, etc. We should be teaching more personal responsibility these day.


Seriously, saying that a healthy 3 year old dog is proof that genetic issues don't exist is like saying just because a 16 year old doesn't have parkinsons or ALS or heart disease blah blah blah... means his kids won't have it. Well thankfully here in the good old USA we aren’t only allowing those with superior genetics to breed. However if that would ever change please start with those that are eating Tide Pods. :D

Is anyone else starting to think this is just a troll hangout now?
Last edited by FrankRizzo on Mon May 21, 2018 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by FrankRizzo » Mon May 21, 2018 3:31 pm

isonychia wrote:
FrankRizzo wrote:
isonychia wrote:I have a brittany who was and is still hunting up a storm, 2 hrs is actually our new limit, with mitral valve insufficiency at 7 years old. 2 hrs is nothing like what we hunted in the past. I hunted him this past fall over the course of 7 days, 5 total hunt days and probably an average of 4 hours each of those days, can't remember fully but with desert quail, the fact that his heart held up better than his feet says a lot and makes me really optimistic. I say, if you don't want to have the health checks done but think that living the life is all of the proof you need, freeze his sperm and breed him when he dies at the ripe old age of 13+

Either that or be willing to compensate every single person who buys your pup and ends up having hereditary issues by refunding their money and or taking their dog back. Either way, if that were to happen, you have to live with the fact that they got the short end of the stick. i don’t think wether a dog has received certain health clearance or not does it mean some type of genetic disease could still be passed on. IMHO it’s a chance you take. Pay $1000-$1500 from a professional breeder and you could still have problems, maybe less chances. Pay $300-$700 without all the health clearances and you may still have genetic issues. Why anyone thinks it’s someone else’s responsibility for the choice someone makes is beyond me.

The parents of my dog had health clearances, so I guess I’m going to take a chance he’s good to go. If someone chooses to use him as a Stud it should be their responsibility. That person could have chosen to pay more, made sure the Stud had this title and that title, health clearances, etc. We should be teaching more personal responsibility these day.


Seriously, saying that a healthy 3 year old dog is proof that genetic issues don't exist is like saying just because a 16 year old doesn't have parkinsons or ALS or heart disease blah blah blah... means his kids won't have it. Well thankfully here in the good old USA we aren’t allowing those with superior genetics to breed. However if that would ever change please start with those that are eating Tide Pods. :D

Is anyone else starting to think this is just a troll hangout now?
Just to be clear that texted in red didn't come from me :D
That is correct it was from me. I also hope you and your dog a lot more great days in the field.

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by isonychia » Mon May 21, 2018 3:36 pm

Thanks for that. Amazing how much you can fall in love with your first dog.

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Re: Stud Dog Question

Post by averageguy » Mon May 21, 2018 3:53 pm

Frank, I think you make a valid point.

Freedom. It is becoming in short supply more and more. I lean towards folks breeding what they want and buying what they want.

Every dog on my current dog's six generations papers was Ability Tested and Health Screened. His breeder hunts his dogs a great deal and uses their performance hunting wild game as the ultimate yardstick as to whether to breed them or not.

The last question you asked in your OP was: Would you be wasting your time?

You would be on me and numerous others who have posted in this thread. We see value and benefit in Health screenings and independent performance verifications. Those ability tests reveal a lot about a dog's mental makeup and ability to accept advance training and perform under pressures different than hunting wild game. (Those Ability Tests are not remotely sufficient to justify breeding the dog. Superior and consistent Performance on wild birds needs to be present as well, is my value system on the subject.)

I am not hoping or pushing for change where a guy like yourself cannot breed a dog such as you currently own, if you choose to do so.

But I have several Friends who have beautiful Sharp Shooter bred GSPs, NAVHDA titles on those dogs and all their ancestors, AKC Show Conformation Titles, Health Screened, Hunted Extensively on wild upland birds and waterfowl.

When the market offers that in comparison why would I not go in that direction vs your dog?

I expect your opinion of your dog is justified. Given his bloodlines he is likely a beautiful and talented dog. Health screening is easily done, and training for and passing a NAVHDA Utility Test can be accomplished in a years timeframe on a dog the age of yours. Another year could possibly yield a VC title.

Couple that with a beautiful Black dog with good bloodlines and you might find a line forming to breed to him. And you would have an excellent trained dog to be proud of in the process. Something to consider. Best of Luck with your Dog.

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