Trials are clear as mud

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isonychia
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Trials are clear as mud

Post by isonychia » Sat May 12, 2018 1:55 pm

...for me. I want to play around with the trial world. I am leaning towards NSTRA based on what I like in a brittany and how I chose my current pup, but there are some dual champions in his line, so that begs the question; how feasible is it to go for both NSTRA and AKC titles. Should I focus on one or try both and then go with what I like. Also, with AKC DC should I enter in puppy conformation for a shot at points? I know only 2 points can go to championship. It sounds like you have to get FC before DC but does that mean you shouldn't work on conformation points early on? DC is just conformation and field trial / hunt test points correct? Can you get DC from Gun Dog events and Conformation Champion? Is it possible to get a DC without running any horseback trials? I guess that is my big question, if you have to run in horseback trials for that then that takes me out pretty quick. Is there any value in the Brittany world to a dog who has field accomplishments in NSTRA and show titles in AKC?

Bottom line is that I want to test my training skillset and the choice in pups I get and their ability level. I want to be able to look back after decades (hopefully) of doing this and possibly see somewhere I contributed to the breed, but I simply can not figure out the best venue and all of these trials are 6-9 hrs away from me so any help would be greatly appreciated in what direction to take a good prospect for a walking trial Brittany.

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Re: Trials are clear as mud

Post by shags » Sat May 12, 2018 2:49 pm

A DC is an AKC field champion ( open stakes, not an amateur FC) and bench champion. Titles are awarded after your dog accumulates points in each, and points are awarded according to how many dogs were in the classes or stakes that the dog won. He needs "majors' in both to title, meaning that the stake must be at least 13 dogs starting; for shows, you'll have to check the akc we site since major points may vary from region to region.

NSTRA titles are not recognized by AKC, so if you attain a NSTRA CH, and a bench CH, no DC for you. Master hunter title does not go toward a DC either.

If you want to run both formats in trials, I would suggest running AKC first. Adult stakes dogs have to be steady to wing and shot, and stop to flush among other things. From what I have seen in NSTRA, dogs can break at the shot. So keep your dog broke until he titles, then you can allow him to break in the other format.

In my area there are AKC walking trials as well as horseback trials, and hb trials that offer walking stakes. Check the AKC we site for trials in your area. It will say on the premium list if it's walking, but remember...you may walk in any AKC stake hb trial or not.

Brittanies have to major from a Brittany trial, so look some up while you're on the AKC we site.

Good luck, have fun!

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Re: Trials are clear as mud

Post by slistoe » Sat May 12, 2018 11:03 pm

DC is when you attain a Show Champion (CH) and Field Trial Champion (FC). You can get an FC in walking only stakes if there are enough Open Walking trials that you can run in. Amateur stakes will not count towards your FC title.

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Re: Trials are clear as mud

Post by birddogger2 » Sun May 13, 2018 7:22 am

ISO -

Just checked the book to be sure.

According to my old copy(2007), 2 amateur or open puppy and 2 amateur or open derby points may be used toward the FC title. Am. Puppy and Am. Derby are ALWAYS walking stakes, so a first place in a puppy and a derby stake with 8-12 starters will get you almost halfway there.

FWIW, there are often folks with a horse that you can "borrow " or rent at trials. Talk to the trial chairperson and ask if they can help you catch a ride for a couple of braces. In my area it is not uncommon for the club to bring in a wrangler for both judges and participants. Wranglers are quite expensive, but sometimes the club has to bite the bullet in order to have the judges they want.

The funny thing is...if you have a dog that is competitive and fun to watch, there are folks who will help you put that dog out there. They did for me when I was getting started. Real dog people want to see the best dog win...even if it ain't theirs.

I could be wrong, but I think that when folks see that you really are serious about attempting a DC...especially Brittany folks... who seem to care a great deal about the number of DC's in their breed... you might be pleasantly surprised.

One last thing...

While it is true that in AKC you always have the option to walk the brace...I do not recommend it. Having a walking and a riding handler in the same brace generally does not turn out well for either handler or dog. When I have come up against that scenario, I have offered the other handler a horse to ride and if they refuse...I will generally get off and walk as well because it is not fun keeping my horse with or behind a walking handler, which is what is required. If I can't do the walk, I will scratch. Again it is just easier.

RayG

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greg jacobs
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Re: Trials are clear as mud

Post by greg jacobs » Sun May 13, 2018 8:30 am

Everyone covered it all but I know a couple people that do nstra and trial. Their dogs are broke, and they release for the retrieve in nstra.

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dan v
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Re: Trials are clear as mud

Post by dan v » Mon May 14, 2018 9:38 am

slistoe wrote:DC is when you attain a Show Champion (CH) and Field Trial Champion (FC). You can get an FC in walking only stakes if there are enough Open Walking trials that you can run in. Amateur stakes will not count towards your FC title.

You can bring 4 Amateur Points to the Open side.

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Featherfinder
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Re: Trials are clear as mud

Post by Featherfinder » Wed May 16, 2018 6:38 am

I believe you should go the AKC trial route first, for sure. Whether walking or horseback a successful trial dog should have finished manners (adult stakes) be a front runner, often a "line runner", with a level of independence. That independence will come with the expected range. I'd go that way, try for a title, then as your dog matures, you can more easily reel him back to a NSTRA or even test performance.
It's how I used to do it and it seemed to work very well for me.
I'm not show savvy so.....can't help there.

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Re: Trials are clear as mud

Post by slistoe » Wed May 16, 2018 8:09 am

Featherfinder wrote: I'm not show savvy so.....can't help there.
For most folks - hire a handler.

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Featherfinder
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Re: Trials are clear as mud

Post by Featherfinder » Thu May 17, 2018 6:31 am

Slistoe is right on, if you have the budget for the show thing.

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Re: Trials are clear as mud

Post by shags » Thu May 17, 2018 1:42 pm

Featherfinder wrote:Slistoe is right on, if you have the budget for the show thing.
Depending where you are, you might need a handler for the field champion thing, too :wink:

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Re: Trials are clear as mud

Post by Featherfinder » Fri May 18, 2018 6:07 am

Hahaha...you are correct Shags. It can expedite the process significantly.
One thing I have lots of is no money so, I did my own field handling. :lol: Can't lie - I LOVED it.
I'm so glad I have no clue what it actually cost me for my field titles. And...I'm still married to the same sweetheart! Not sure how she endured. I ran from Connecticut to Wisconsin to Canada and most states in between.
It's a part of my dark past I'm not particularly proud of. The costs can be much more than just monetary. Come to think of it, you make an EXCELLENT point Shags.

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Re: Trials are clear as mud

Post by shags » Fri May 18, 2018 6:27 am

LOL, FF :D

No way will I ever attempt to figure the miles travelled or dollars spent in running my own dogs. And I won't try to estimate costs of using a handler, either. And that's with the good fortune of having talented dogs who finished fairly easily.

I used to justify it all with "It's a hobby...healthy, outdoors, sociable, and everyone needs a hobby, right?" But hobbies don't require selling the house in town, buying acreage, horses, trailer, training equipment, and more dogs, so now I have a 'life style' :lol:

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Featherfinder
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Re: Trials are clear as mud

Post by Featherfinder » Wed May 23, 2018 5:11 am

Funny Shags...but true. I get it, completely!
Enjoy it while you can. Time waits for no-one. And anyway, you could be spending your money in MUCH worse ways.

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Re: Trials are clear as mud

Post by DonF » Sun May 27, 2018 9:07 am

shags wrote:A DC is an AKC field champion ( open stakes, not an amateur FC) and bench champion. Titles are awarded after your dog accumulates points in each, and points are awarded according to how many dogs were in the classes or stakes that the dog won. He needs "majors' in both to title, meaning that the stake must be at least 13 dogs starting; for shows, you'll have to check the akc we site since major points may vary from region to region.

NSTRA titles are not recognized by AKC, so if you attain a NSTRA CH, and a bench CH, no DC for you. Master hunter title does not go toward a DC either.

If you want to run both formats in trials, I would suggest running AKC first. Adult stakes dogs have to be steady to wing and shot, and stop to flush among other things. From what I have seen in NSTRA, dogs can break at the shot. So keep your dog broke until he titles, then you can allow him to break in the other format.

In my area there are AKC walking trials as well as horseback trials, and hb trials that offer walking stakes. Check the AKC we site for trials in your area. It will say on the premium list if it's walking, but remember...you may walk in any AKC stake hb trial or not.

Brittanies have to major from a Brittany trial, so look some up while you're on the AKC we site.

Good luck, have fun!
Only thing I could dd to this is that in AKC the dog must be steady to wing, shot and kill! I think it might be gundog stakes only. The trials I've been to the kill bird is done in a call back, years ago the first bird on course was milled. In Amer Fld wing and shot but no birds killed. Anotherthing about Amer Fld is you can't win with out a bird but you can place if your dog does well enough. At least that's what we did at a trial in Wash, Second place went to a Pointer that ran great, walking shooting dog. NSTRA is much more like bird hunting. But no extra credit for a broke dog. Many of the NSTRA dog's seem to be better retriever's than AKC dog's, but the top AKC dogs would smoke you. In each format keep in mind it's just a game, nothing else.

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Re: Trials are clear as mud

Post by shags » Sun May 27, 2018 10:16 am

In AKC trials, the setters, pointers, and Brittanies don't need to retrieve to earn FC or AFC. The versatile breeds must retrieve. Don is correct, they must be steady until sent to retrieve, and retrieve to hand. Around here versatile clubs usually offer one open and one amateur stake as retrieving. One of our GSP clubs sometimes offers retrieve from all age.

We had a pointer fella that did some crossover from AF walking trials. He entered at a Vizsla trial, and apparently didn't notice it was a retrieve stKe he entered. He got a call back and went for it, he said it was the first time he ever tried his dog on a retrieve...and dang if she didn't nail it and win the stake :lol:

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