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Stinker Pups

Stinker Pups

Postby naperdog » Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:04 pm

How often does a well bred litter produce a stinker of a pup. A pup that can’t hunt or won’t he not or is just bad at hunting? Obviously training can play a part but is it pretty rare that a bad pup is produced ?
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Re: Stinker Pups

Postby isonychia » Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:28 pm

I think it is more common to get random health defects than anything else. Not sure anyone could nail a percentage. I would say that some pups require more work than others, some are raging field masters and others more likely to be a closer working buddy. A total, non-hunting dog? Well, the chances of that have to be infinitesimally small compared to small things that people do to "train" their dogs that completely backfire. IE; shooting ranges, fire works, short tempered, heavy handed work or just lack of patience with shooting birds and training with crap birds that don't fly.
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Re: Stinker Pups

Postby Sharon » Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:28 pm

How often? Can't say how often, but every litter is a crap shoot.You try to up the odds buy making sure the parents have had all their health checks and some reputation for hunting well but still.............
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Re: Stinker Pups

Postby BuckeyeSteve » Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:42 pm

I'm a rookie to this....and certainly don't know your experience level and don't mean this to your specific situation as much as a general answer to the general question...

But my guess is that almost invariably if a highly experienced trainer who has successfully trained 10-500 dogs says a dog is a bust, it probably is. If a person of my limited experience says a dog is a bust, it's probably the trainer 99.99% of the time - not the dog.

I would be a million dogs have been labeled as no good because the owner didn't know how to train them, but if the same dog had gone to Bill West or Maurice Lindley it would have turned into a champ.
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Re: Stinker Pups

Postby naperdog » Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:05 pm

A little more context might help. I’m a weekend hunter with an aging dog that was also my first. My current dog is a nice little hunter that if I had the time or desire could earn titles. I’m buying my second puppy soon and have a nice litter picked out. Just wondering if non-hunting dogs come out very often. I hear what you are all saying about people ruining dogs. But are there many that even the best trainers can’t help.
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Re: Stinker Pups

Postby cjhills » Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:50 pm

naperdog wrote:A little more context might help. I’m a weekend hunter with an aging dog that was also my first. My current dog is a nice little hunter that if I had the time or desire could earn titles. I’m buying my second puppy soon and have a nice litter picked out. Just wondering if non-hunting dogs come out very often. I hear what you are all saying about people ruining dogs. But are there many that even the best trainers can’t help.

I think it is extremely rare to get a bad hunting dog from good hunting parents. I don't mean everyone will be a world class dog but they all will have hunting ability.
I think in a litter from good birddog parents 100% will have some natural hunting talent. Most will be quite talented. It is easy do breed talented bird dogs.
Has Isonychia said, it is much harder to deal with all the health, conformation and temperament issues which can occasionally come out of nowhere and bite you in the backside..........Cj.
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Re: Stinker Pups

Postby JONOV » Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:55 pm

naperdog wrote:A little more context might help. I’m a weekend hunter with an aging dog that was also my first. My current dog is a nice little hunter that if I had the time or desire could earn titles. I’m buying my second puppy soon and have a nice litter picked out. Just wondering if non-hunting dogs come out very often. I hear what you are all saying about people ruining dogs. But are there many that even the best trainers can’t help.

A true dud seems pretty rare...More common that a serviceable hunting companion is a nice dog but maybe doesn’t live up to what his parents did.
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Re: Stinker Pups

Postby SCT » Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:47 am

I breed for early, natural hunting instincts. But, in every litter there is varying degrees of how early a pup points (scent) a bird, and more importantly, starts searching behavior (hunt). The ones I keep for future breeding always show early natural development to hunt and find birds. Of the last 9 litters I can't say I've seen an actual dud. Some pups just take more time to develop those instincts.
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Re: Stinker Pups

Postby JONOV » Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:19 am

SCT wrote:I breed for early, natural hunting instincts. But, in every litter there is varying degrees of how early a pup points (scent) a bird, and more importantly, starts searching behavior (hunt). The ones I keep for future breeding always show early natural development to hunt and find birds. Of the last 9 litters I can't say I've seen an actual dud. Some pups just take more time to develop those instincts.

I also think that some dogs take to different training styles different. Some might describe some as "softer" or whatever. If you have a football coach/drill instructor training method, then some dogs, or subsets of breeds, or whole breeds even, are more likely not to work out as well. Ditto, if you're softer and gentler, then some dogs you might find excessively uncooperative.
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Re: Stinker Pups

Postby naperdog » Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:25 pm

Thanks all, that’s the answer I was expecting. Sounds like I should focus all my efforts on picking the pup with the right temperament for me and not be too worried about hunting ability?
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Re: Stinker Pups

Postby isonychia » Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:15 pm

naperdog wrote:Thanks all, that’s the answer I was expecting. Sounds like I should focus all my efforts on picking the pup with the right temperament for me and not be too worried about hunting ability?



The original question was about well bred pups. I would say you still want to see some hunting achievements in trials or tests.
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Re: Stinker Pups

Postby Sharon » Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:55 pm

naperdog wrote:Thanks all, that’s the answer I was expecting. Sounds like I should focus all my efforts on picking the pup with the right temperament for me and not be too worried about hunting ability?


I hope that isn't what was said. :) You want a pup from parents that have hunting ability AND a pup that has the right temperament for you.
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Re: Stinker Pups

Postby naperdog » Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:13 pm

The parents have hunting ability and there are plenty of titles in the line. So within that litter, it sounds like I’ll most likely get a pup with some level,of hunting ability and should focus on temperament.
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Re: Stinker Pups

Postby JONOV » Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:12 am

naperdog wrote:The parents have hunting ability and there are plenty of titles in the line. So within that litter, it sounds like I’ll most likely get a pup with some level,of hunting ability and should focus on temperament.

If you'd be happy with both parents as hunting dogs, no reason to worry about the offspring.
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Re: Stinker Pups

Postby DonF » Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:50 am

I've only raised a few litter's but seemed in every litter there was a slow pup but none that couldn't or wouldn't hunt. It's in many many years of breeding. Even show dog's can hunt, just not to the degree some of us expect. But a down right stinker? never had one. Not to say a pup can't be rendered that way by the owner/trainer. Take them out young and blast off a shotgun a few time's without conditioning a pup and you certainly ruin an otherwise good dog and think it's a stinker. it's not! Just improperly shot around. You'll notice with pup's like that, get rid of the gun and they are fine. Let them see a gun and they quit on you. Get them into an area where they were exposed to the gun and often they will blink the whole thing, run right back to the house. But, they are not stinker's, they are or have been conditioned to do what they are doing!
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Re: Stinker Pups

Postby naperdog » Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:55 am

At 7-8 weeks is there any chance at telling who the better hunters in a litter might be?
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Re: Stinker Pups

Postby JONOV » Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:39 am

naperdog wrote:At 7-8 weeks is there any chance at telling who the better hunters in a litter might be?

Some people will tell you to look for the boldest pup, but I think its really hard to say. Gary Lester, famed handler and multiple winner of the National Championship at Ames, has washed dogs out of his string and sold them, that have gone on to win at Ames, (more than once I think.) So what does that tell you?

What kind of dog? What does "best hunter" mean to you?
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Re: Stinker Pups

Postby naperdog » Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:15 pm

I have a total of 1 experience picking out a dog and he was 4 months old already when I made the selection. I was choosing between 2 dogs 1) very high octane and wanted to find birds 2) showed only passing interest in birds but was much more into my wife and I.

We took pup #2 and he turned out to be a wonderful hunting and home companion. I obedience trained him and the only hunting ‘training’ he had was hunting with an experienced dog often his first 2 years. I’d love to select my next dog the same way but it will be much younger. So having some context from others has helped. Also since I’ve only done this once, not sure if we ‘just got lucky’ last time.
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Re: Stinker Pups

Postby JONOV » Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:20 pm

naperdog wrote:I have a total of 1 experience picking out a dog and he was 4 months old already when I made the selection. I was choosing between 2 dogs 1) very high octane and wanted to find birds 2) showed only passing interest in birds but was much more into my wife and I.

We took pup #2 and he turned out to be a wonderful hunting and home companion. I obedience trained him and the only hunting ‘training’ he had was hunting with an experienced dog often his first 2 years. I’d love to select my next dog the same way but it will be much younger. So having some context from others has helped. Also since I’ve only done this once, not sure if we ‘just got lucky’ last time.

The most common advice seems to be "pick the breeding" or "pick the litter."

If you've done that, avoid any dogs that strike you as ones you don't want (whether they're too shy or bullies or something) but otherwise pick the one you like or the breeder recommends.
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Re: Stinker Pups

Postby averageguy » Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:54 pm

naperdog wrote:I have a total of 1 experience picking out a dog and he was 4 months old already when I made the selection. I was choosing between 2 dogs 1) very high octane and wanted to find birds 2) showed only passing interest in birds but was much more into my wife and I.

We took pup #2 and he turned out to be a wonderful hunting and home companion. I obedience trained him and the only hunting ‘training’ he had was hunting with an experienced dog often his first 2 years. I’d love to select my next dog the same way but it will be much younger. So having some context from others has helped. Also since I’ve only done this once, not sure if we ‘just got lucky’ last time.


Sounds like your one experience well illustrates the general case of most puppies from well bred litters will make good, given the opportunity to do so.

I have made first pick on several litters over the years covering coonhounds, terriers, and GWPs. I observe the litters several times, turning them out into the yard and watching them. I like the ones that go exploring using their nose as they go vs those that hang around me or the other puppies, First to point, First to Retrieve ... Bold puppies are easier to train from the standpoint it is a lot harder to make a mistake you cannot recover from while training and you can most often bring them along faster. But they also require a stronger hand and that is just my preference. It might not be the best for your situation. If the litter is right and you avoid a shy pup (if there is one), I predict it will work out well. Best of Luck.
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Re: Stinker Pups

Postby isonychia » Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:00 pm

naperdog wrote:At 7-8 weeks is there any chance at telling who the better hunters in a litter might be?


Delmar Smith says no. I say no. I say that you can pick up a little on the temperament though not a whole lot. Just get the one that speaks to you or looks the best IMHO. Even if it is a little calm compared to the rest, maybe not if it is the knucklehead of the bunch though haha, did that before.
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Re: Stinker Pups

Postby averageguy » Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:21 am

isonychia wrote:
naperdog wrote:At 7-8 weeks is there any chance at telling who the better hunters in a litter might be?


Delmar Smith says no. I say no. I say that you can pick up a little on the temperament though not a whole lot. Just get the one that speaks to you or looks the best IMHO. Even if it is a little calm compared to the rest, maybe not if it is the knucklehead of the bunch though haha, did that before.


I am curious where you heard or read that attributed to Delmar Smith? I read many quotes of him stressing pick the right litter which is heavily dependent on observing the Sire and Dam, but I have found nothing of him saying he cannot observe differences between puppies in a litter.
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