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DNA testing

DNA testing

Postby Urban_Redneck » Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:13 am

Raining here....

I read here and there about some trials and NAVHDA events requiring DNA testing, I'm curious as to how much is learned from these tests. What is being looked at/compared to? How many generations back can an out cross be detected? If the sire and dam of a pup have never been tested, will the pup's test mean much.



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Re: DNA testing

Postby Sharon » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:24 pm

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Re: DNA testing

Postby Urban_Redneck » Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:00 am

Looks as if the results depend on the reference sample used for comparison and perhaps accurate going back 3 or 4 generations?
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Re: DNA testing

Postby birddogger2 » Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:16 am

I believe the DNA process, as it has been implemented by the American Field, is more focused on creating a database of current stud dogs and dams, especially futurity winners and champions.

Those dogs, who have excelled in competition, are the most likely candidates for use as stud dogs and matrons for the competitive level. They are also the dogs that will generally command the highest stud fees and puppy prices.

Once a solid database of these high performing dogs has been established...it will be increasingly more difficult to "slip in a ringer", so to speak.

I cannot speak to the other registries, but the AF registry issues 3 different levels of DNA certification. The "lowest" level is when neither the stud or dam has DNA on file. The next level is where one of the parents has DNA on file and the "highest" level is issued when both parents have DNA on file. The certificates are color coded.

It will always be possible for "cheaters to cheat". The current DNA requirements do however make it much more difficult and costly to engage in this kind of deception and misrepresentation.

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Re: DNA testing

Postby JONOV » Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:08 am

birddogger2 wrote:I believe the DNA process, as it has been implemented by the American Field, is more focused on creating a database of current stud dogs and dams, especially futurity winners and champions.

Those dogs, who have excelled in competition, are the most likely candidates for use as stud dogs and matrons for the competitive level. They are also the dogs that will generally command the highest stud fees and puppy prices.

Once a solid database of these high performing dogs has been established...it will be increasingly more difficult to "slip in a ringer", so to speak.

I cannot speak to the other registries, but the AF registry issues 3 different levels of DNA certification. The "lowest" level is when neither the stud or dam has DNA on file. The next level is where one of the parents has DNA on file and the "highest" level is issued when both parents have DNA on file. The certificates are color coded.

It will always be possible for "cheaters to cheat". The current DNA requirements do however make it much more difficult and costly to engage in this kind of deception and misrepresentation.

RayG


It would seem that such is the goal of the NAVHDA system as well.

Its an "out there" scenario, but I wonder what they'll do when someone gets a case of sour grapes about a dog and the dam and sire aren't around anymore. It isn't as big of a concern in NAVHDA since there isn't any purse money and the dogs aren't judged against each other, just a standard.
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Re: DNA testing

Postby DonF » Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:02 am

I went to a NAVHDA test yesterday for the first time. I talked to one guy that had a poodle pointer he claimed was the result of breeding a pointer and a Poodle. Talked to some other's and was told the poodle pointer was developed in the late 1800's. Huh, why would someone cross out like that on a breed that's been around that long? Wanted to walk along and watch and take some photo's. Judges said it was alright but handler didn't want anyone else out there so watched from the start what I could.The first dog down ran an awfully big gun dog, thought they weren't supposed to run like that? They set up a tracking test and I was able to see more of what was going on. These were young dog's. They pulled flight feather's on a pheasant, some breast feather's to throw on the ground where they turned the bird loose. I didn't see any dog manage to start at the feather pile and track the bird. In fact I didn't see one even attempt to follow a track. But they stayed out there, dog's hundreds of yds out in the wrong direction and they kept it going! Obviously the pup had no clue why it was out there. Saw one pup that did find a bird and caught it, no where near where the bird was released. Remember these dog's were young dog's only. I thing the cutoff for running at that level ws 16mos. By comparison I knew a guy years ago that did NAVADA here in Oregon. Leo Mitag. He came out to a NSTRA fun day with an imported GSP that ran NAVHDA. Solid liver, nice looking dog. Dog was flawless in most every thing it did. Problem for me was it never got out of gun range! Was out there till noon and didn't learn a whole lot. Oh, I though there was a retrieving test but there was none. Some nice folks but it mostly didn't turn me on. I'm gonna try to catch another this fall with older dog's and see how it goes. OH, they put down one dog at a time. It's test so make's sence. There were also four judges for every run, supposed to be 20min run but I don't think any was much less than half hour and they only got maybe three to four hundred yds out. Yep, I'm gonna try to get out to another and see some adult dog's out there.
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Re: DNA testing

Postby bustingcover » Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:08 am

Don it’s a Pudelpointer and that’s not how the breed was made it’s a very old breed. I’m surprised the owner was so mistaken seeing as it’s a hard and expensive dog to get a hold of the people with them usually know everything about them.

And as far as dna testing goes it’s mostly just so you can’t hang a famous studs name on a litter just to sell paper.
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Re: DNA testing

Postby averageguy » Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:44 am

DonF wrote:I went to a NAVHDA test yesterday for the first time. I talked to one guy that had a poodle pointer he claimed was the result of breeding a pointer and a Poodle. Talked to some other's and was told the poodle pointer was developed in the late 1800's. Huh, why would someone cross out like that on a breed that's been around that long? Wanted to walk along and watch and take some photo's. Judges said it was alright but handler didn't want anyone else out there so watched from the start what I could.The first dog down ran an awfully big gun dog, thought they weren't supposed to run like that? They set up a tracking test and I was able to see more of what was going on. These were young dog's. They pulled flight feather's on a pheasant, some breast feather's to throw on the ground where they turned the bird loose. I didn't see any dog manage to start at the feather pile and track the bird. In fact I didn't see one even attempt to follow a track. But they stayed out there, dog's hundreds of yds out in the wrong direction and they kept it going! Obviously the pup had no clue why it was out there. Saw one pup that did find a bird and caught it, no where near where the bird was released. Remember these dog's were young dog's only. I thing the cutoff for running at that level ws 16mos. By comparison I knew a guy years ago that did NAVADA here in Oregon. Leo Mitag. He came out to a NSTRA fun day with an imported GSP that ran NAVHDA. Solid liver, nice looking dog. Dog was flawless in most every thing it did. Problem for me was it never got out of gun range! Was out there till noon and didn't learn a whole lot. Oh, I though there was a retrieving test but there was none. Some nice folks but it mostly didn't turn me on. I'm gonna try to catch another this fall with older dog's and see how it goes. OH, they put down one dog at a time. It's test so make's sence. There were also four judges for every run, supposed to be 20min run but I don't think any was much less than half hour and they only got maybe three to four hundred yds out. Yep, I'm gonna try to get out to another and see some adult dog's out there.


Don if it interests you, I encourage you to attend and learn more as your post is full of mis-information about both the Pudelpointer and NAVHDA. Go watch the breath of subject and training required to pass a UT test, and then go watch an Invitational and you will have a better appreciation for the talents and training required for a dog to do well in that test venue.

Here is my Prize 1 Utility GWP when he was 21 months old last season hunting Prairie Chickens and Sharptails in SD. I run a Garmin and he was 536 yards when I snapped this photo. The second photo is the same but cropped so you can see the black dot which is that pup hitting it hard. A short while later 10am rolled around and we swung down into a cattail slough below a large pond dam and worked up our 3 bird limit of wild roosters with the pup having sense enough to close his range to within 75 yards for most of that work. He also recovered a Rooster I crippled and marked down into the cattails several hundred yards distant. I got a good mark on some junk machinery pile up above it, took the pup over there and told him to "Hunt Dead", he persisted in those efforts in the 8 foot tall cattail jungle and came up with it.

Image

Same photo cropped. The Black Dot is my pup hitting over 500 yards out for Prairie Grouse.

Image

Our Limit of Roosters and a Prairie Chicken a short while later.

Image

This pup is from a NAVHDA Breeders Award litter which is one of the reasons NAVHDA adopted the DNA testing policy.

This might interest you. I bowhunt and have been using my GWPs to track blood when/as needed for a few decades now. Last week I laid a track here on the farm using 2 ounces of deer blood (which is very little), over 250 yards long, 2 90 degree bends in the track and aged it 4 hours before I ran my pup on it. At the end of the track I left a hind leg off a buck which the pup will retrieve back and provide me the verification of his success on the track. I am standing filming where I released the dog. That is a CRP field with bobwhite quail in it. A dog must have some brains to be able to switch gears and do this work when commanded.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhDDYC_NwLw
Last edited by averageguy on Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: DNA testing

Postby JONOV » Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:36 pm

DonF wrote:I went to a NAVHDA test yesterday for the first time. I talked to one guy that had a poodle pointer he claimed was the result of breeding a pointer and a Poodle. Talked to some other's and was told the poodle pointer was developed in the late 1800's. Huh, why would someone cross out like that on a breed that's been around that long? Wanted to walk along and watch and take some photo's. Judges said it was alright but handler didn't want anyone else out there so watched from the start what I could.The first dog down ran an awfully big gun dog, thought they weren't supposed to run like that? They set up a tracking test and I was able to see more of what was going on. These were young dog's. They pulled flight feather's on a pheasant, some breast feather's to throw on the ground where they turned the bird loose. I didn't see any dog manage to start at the feather pile and track the bird. In fact I didn't see one even attempt to follow a track. But they stayed out there, dog's hundreds of yds out in the wrong direction and they kept it going! Obviously the pup had no clue why it was out there. Saw one pup that did find a bird and caught it, no where near where the bird was released. Remember these dog's were young dog's only. I thing the cutoff for running at that level ws 16mos. By comparison I knew a guy years ago that did NAVADA here in Oregon. Leo Mitag. He came out to a NSTRA fun day with an imported GSP that ran NAVHDA. Solid liver, nice looking dog. Dog was flawless in most every thing it did. Problem for me was it never got out of gun range! Was out there till noon and didn't learn a whole lot. Oh, I though there was a retrieving test but there was none. Some nice folks but it mostly didn't turn me on. I'm gonna try to catch another this fall with older dog's and see how it goes. OH, they put down one dog at a time. It's test so make's sence. There were also four judges for every run, supposed to be 20min run but I don't think any was much less than half hour and they only got maybe three to four hundred yds out. Yep, I'm gonna try to get out to another and see some adult dog's out there.

The Pudelpointer owner was a bit of a dingdong, I think. The Pudelpointer was developed from the Pointer, and the German Hunting Pudel which is extinct and is probably closest related to the Barbet (I heard in an interview Bob Ferris) which is sorta like the Portugese Water dog in appearance. Its an old breed, one of the breeds that was foundation stock for the GWP. But, its no more a mix than a Golden Retriever is a mix between a Yellow Retriever and Water Spaniel.

The dogs aren't penalized or awarded for a big run or working close. The point of the field portion is to evaluate the dog's nose, search, and pointing ability.

Track seems to be where most dogs stumble. But if you aren't right there, then you don't really know what the judges see. I say that because I've seen dogs that have apparently B-lined to the bird and caught it do poorly, and dogs that didn't do well.

It does take a long time. The judges give every handler the same short speech before, and confer a few minutes after, each dog. Its a lot of hurry-up-and-wait.

The UT test is what Ray G referred to as "A Broke Dog Stake." Dogs need to be steady to Wing, shot and fall, retrieve to hand both in the field and in water, on birds shot over them and dragged a fair distance away, and have to independently search a swamp to get a top score.

Some of the finer characteristics that are important in a field trial, whether All Age, NSTRA, shooting dog stakes, aren't relevant in NAVHDA. Whether a dog has a 12 O'Clock Tail, run or lack of run, style, isn't factored in, unless a dog is such a boot polisher as to inhibit foot hunting or runs without responding to the whistle, makes no difference. You could have a dog quarter 30-50 yards in front the whole time, and if he pointed (and was steady and retrieved to hand in a UT test) he wouldn't get penalized. You could drop an All Age pointer and if you could work him with the whistle, and he pointed (and was steady and retrieved in a UT test,) he wouldn't get penalized either.
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Re: DNA testing

Postby JONOV » Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:22 pm

averageguy wrote:
DonF wrote:I went to a NAVHDA test yesterday for the first time. I talked to one guy that had a poodle pointer he claimed was the result of breeding a pointer and a Poodle. Talked to some other's and was told the poodle pointer was developed in the late 1800's. Huh, why would someone cross out like that on a breed that's been around that long? Wanted to walk along and watch and take some photo's. Judges said it was alright but handler didn't want anyone else out there so watched from the start what I could.The first dog down ran an awfully big gun dog, thought they weren't supposed to run like that? They set up a tracking test and I was able to see more of what was going on. These were young dog's. They pulled flight feather's on a pheasant, some breast feather's to throw on the ground where they turned the bird loose. I didn't see any dog manage to start at the feather pile and track the bird. In fact I didn't see one even attempt to follow a track. But they stayed out there, dog's hundreds of yds out in the wrong direction and they kept it going! Obviously the pup had no clue why it was out there. Saw one pup that did find a bird and caught it, no where near where the bird was released. Remember these dog's were young dog's only. I thing the cutoff for running at that level ws 16mos. By comparison I knew a guy years ago that did NAVADA here in Oregon. Leo Mitag. He came out to a NSTRA fun day with an imported GSP that ran NAVHDA. Solid liver, nice looking dog. Dog was flawless in most every thing it did. Problem for me was it never got out of gun range! Was out there till noon and didn't learn a whole lot. Oh, I though there was a retrieving test but there was none. Some nice folks but it mostly didn't turn me on. I'm gonna try to catch another this fall with older dog's and see how it goes. OH, they put down one dog at a time. It's test so make's sence. There were also four judges for every run, supposed to be 20min run but I don't think any was much less than half hour and they only got maybe three to four hundred yds out. Yep, I'm gonna try to get out to another and see some adult dog's out there.


Don if it interests you, I encourage you to attend and learn more as your post if full of mis-information about both the Pudelpointer and NAVHDA. Go watch the breath of subject and training required to pass a UT test, and then go watch an Invitational and you will have a better appreciation for the talents and training required for a dog to do well in that test venue.

Here is my Prize 1 Utility GWP when he was 21 months old last season hunting Prairie Chickens and Sharptails in SD. I run a Garmin and he was 536 yards when I snapped this photo. The second photo is the same but cropped so you can see the black dot which is that pup hitting it hard. A short while later 10am rolled around and we swung down into a cattail slough below a large pond dam and worked up our 3 bird limit of wild roosters with the pup having sense enough to close his range to within 75 yards for most of that work. He also recovered a Rooster I crippled and marked down into the cattails several hundred yards distant. I got a good mark on some junk machinery pile up above it, took the pup over there and told him to "Hunt Dead", he persisted in those efforts in the 8 foot tall cattail jungle and came up with it.

Image

Same photo cropped. The Black Dot is my pup hitting over 500 yards out for Prairie Grouse.

Image

Our Limit of Roosters and Prairie Chicken a short while later.

Image

This pup is from a NAVHDA Breeders Award litter which is one of the reasons NAVHDA adopted the DNA testing policy.

This might interest you. I bowhunt and have been using my GWPs to track blood when/as needed for a few decades now. Last week I laid a track here on the farm using 2 ounces of deer blood (which is very little), over 250 yards long, 2 90 degree bends in the track and aged it 4 hours before I ran my pup on it. At the end of the track I left a hind leg off a buck which the pup will retrieve back and provide me the verification of his success on the track. I am standing filming where I released the dog. That is a CRP field with bobwhite quail in it. A dog must have some brains to be able to switch gears and do this work when commanded.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhDDYC_NwLw

On the subject of tracking (for NA tests) I think that a huge portion of NAVHDA doesn't do a great job preparing for it, myself included.
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Re: DNA testing

Postby averageguy » Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:03 pm

[quote="JONOV"
On the subject of tracking (for NA tests) I think that a huge portion of NAVHDA doesn't do a great job preparing for it, myself included.[/quote]

I see some unprepared dogs for sure, and yes if can be difficult for some young dogs to settle into tracking vs searching at a young age, and a test site with a lot going on. "Huge" portion was probably not what I would have said if asked however, so I just grabbed my April 2018 NAVHDA publication and looked at the test results in the back. 61 NA dogs reported in that edition. 42 of 61 for 69% passed with Prize 1 or 2 awards. Only 6 did not pass the test. May be some bias towards the upper age limit of dogs and better results in those figures as those tests were from Feb/March when older dogs are apt to run. I see variation in the quality between Chapters and that has a definite impact in how well prepared the dogs are.
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Re: DNA testing

Postby averageguy » Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:49 pm

JONOV wrote:The UT test is what Ray G referred to as "A Broke Dog Stake." Dogs need to be steady to Wing, shot and fall, retrieve to hand both in the field and in water, on birds shot over them and dragged a fair distance away, and have to independently search a swamp to get a top score.

Some of the finer characteristics that are important in a field trial, whether All Age, NSTRA, shooting dog stakes, aren't relevant in NAVHDA. Whether a dog has a 12 O'Clock Tail, run or lack of run, style, isn't factored in, unless a dog is such a boot polisher as to inhibit foot hunting or runs without responding to the whistle, makes no difference. You could have a dog quarter 30-50 yards in front the whole time, and if he pointed (and was steady and retrieved to hand in a UT test) he wouldn't get penalized. You could drop an All Age pointer and if you could work him with the whistle, and he pointed (and was steady and retrieved in a UT test,) he wouldn't get penalized either.


There is also a pole bending heeling portion and a steady by the blind with multiple shots and 75 yard water marked retrieve. Dog must remain steady through numerous shots while the handler is both out of sight and within sight, then must complete the retrieve and deliver to hand.

I have seen UT dogs which plodded along within 30-50 yards during the whole period of the Upland portion of the test scored down in Desire to Work and Search. I was glad to see it.
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