Gun Dog Forum

This is good advise. I would add, Some years ago I found myself the proud new owner of a very nice setter. I enlisted the help of a local trainer. I have heard him refer to his roll of duct tape as one of his best training tools. The most effective method of use is to place it on the clients mouth. You see, if your talking your not listening and if your not listening your not learning. If your not learning from the person you enlisted to help you , why are you there asking for help. Granted, his style may not be popular in todays world but I resect honesty, even blunt honesty.
On our way home from one of the early trips to see him I questioned some of his methods to my son. He asked, if your going to question him why go back(smart kid)? I never questioned him again and he did an amazing job on my pup and ever more so on me.
If you already know the answer, don't bother asking the question.....

Wasn't Dave Walker was it? He said that in his first training video. Brought it to a trial and a bunch of us sat around watching it with Dave's wife. Her comment on the duct tape was nobody talks to his dogs more than Dave! But it is a good idea. I simply don't talk much!

Wasn't Dave Walker was it? He said that in his first training video. Brought it to a trial and a bunch of us sat around watching it with Dave's wife. Her comment on the duct tape was nobody talks to his dogs more than Dave! But it is a good idea. I simply don't talk much!

No it wasn't. And it wasn't so they wouldn't talk to their dog. It was so they wouldn't talk over the trainer when he was attempting to give them guidance.

Someone mentioned retrieving and the breeds that do. Something about the different breeds I found over the years is that all breeds will retrieve. The major difference for the hunter is the dog's ability to withstand temp in the water and marking ability. Pretty much if your looking for a field trial retriever, Labs seem to be the way to go. So I've heard there have been a few Chessy's that have trieled but they just don't stay with the lab, neither do Goldens. But if your in New England hunting ducks on the coast, Chessies seem to be the way to go, nothing tolerates water that cold and rough like a Chessi, apparently not even a lab. Goldens are suppsed to be more laid back and biddable than the lab or the Chessi but they bring back half the lake into the blind with them. That's supposed to be where the Boykin came from. The dog that doesn't rock the boat. I think they were developed in S. Carolina and used mainly as retriever's in those little boats they use down there in swamps. I've only ever seen a couple but I'd bet for the hunter, they would do every bit as well and any other breed! The continental breeds, GSP's, Wirehair's ect, Are limited by the cold they can take. All my GSP and even my pointer's retrieved from water but did balk when it got to cold. You can't win a trial with a dog like that but you can hunt!

Springer's were mentioned and I had them years ago. Went to a good many springer fun days outside Portland Ore back then. When there I met Dr Chris Christensen and his wife, Dr Janet Christensen. They had a bunch of springer and I'll tell you these doge were great retriever's. Even so, I'm sure really cold water would slow them down if not stop them.Funny story at a fun day. The gunner's were blowing up birds over the dogs. Doc Christensen went out with his Dual Nat Ch Brickfields Dewclost Flint, most wonderful Springer I've ever seen. Doc got his first bird with Flint blown up and he jumped right in the middle of the gunner's for not letting the birds get out far enough to keep from doing that. Doc was noticeably upset! Well, next bird they both fired two time's and just winged the bird. They all stood there watching the bird and it went down close to a thousand yards away. Doc turned and looked and them and looked like he was going to explode But one of them got in the first word. "That far enough for you"? Doc shook his head rolled if back and sent Flint! Flint got that bird! never in my life have I seen a retrieve that far.

Long as I'm telling stories, got one on Janet too. I don't recall what the stake was but the handler's were taking their guns in the field and shooting their own birds. I walked out and watched Janet run her Misty Muffet, really well known dog. Coming back I noticed she was carrying a really nice SxS so I asked her what it was. Winchester mod 21 Grand American! I asked her if she like it and she said no but Chris bought it for me and get's upset if I don't use it! Mod 21 Grand American. I'd have sold my soul for one! I have to say too, that both of them were some of the nicest people I ever met, just didn't want to cross Chris!

Sorry about the rambling, was a long time ago and I miss those days!

Look at Devin's Irish Red and White Setters in Duluth, Mn. The top IRWS kennel in the country. They have a litter due shortly. Excellent hunting dogs straight from Ireland. By the way the IRWS is the older of the two Irish Setter breeds. Reds came from the IRWS.

After all is said and done, and remembering my Red puppy is on the way, we really should consider where you live. Keep in mind I had Labs and Springer's in Montana and did hunt ducks there. In the winter the cold will get a dog without a good undercoat down, my old Skipper gave every thing he had abut the Springer just doesn't have the under coat. I hunted my shorthair in Alaska but never around water in the winter, again lack of undercoat and also a dog that turned on better to upland birds than water foul. To this day I still don't hunt ducks anymore and really don't have a need for a dog with that undercoat. Then to, get's down around 20* with some wind and I don't hunt anymore, bones getting to old! Like most everyone, I pick and choose the weather I hunt it. And over the years I've learned that the dog's I prefer are at a definite disadvantage when it get's cold out. But also like everyone else, I like what I like and hunt climate to suit them, it's simply not about the birds anymore, hasn't been for years. With the things the OP want's, if I remember right, any setter or shorthair dog might not be the way to go, problem is the climate in Idaho. Being disgustingly honest I suspect he would be better off with a wirehair or maybe even a French Pointing Griffom.I don't know much about the Griffon but have seen a few over the years. Long hair, better undercoat and harder hair something like the wire hair. help's repel tangles! They appear to be quite a bit softer than the wire hair so if you let it get out of hand, the wire hair is probably a lot more forgiving.

I think in the end what he'll find is he's probably gonna like what ever dog he get's and hopefully simply does his bird hunting around the ability's of his breed. Don't ask a GSP to go into the same water as a Chessy. For that matter I'm not sure a lab could handle the same water. Dove's are early season birds and that means mild weather, most anything will work there, even in the water. But later of the temp is gonna drop and the dog's ability to handle it make's a difference. Of course, if I lived where he does, it would still be a GSP E. Setter of R Setter for me. We tend to like what we like!

Actually Don, Boise is the banana belt of Idaho. The rest of us in Idaho say when folks in Boise start thinking they need parka, the same weather for the rest of us means putting on a long sleeve shirt.

Bob Devlin has a litter of IRWS puppies right now. Pure Irish stock and bred for hunting with no show breeding. Registered with the IRWS Association in Ireland. Older breed than the Red and is the parent breed of the Red. Very good noses and easily trained. Looking for an Irish setter these are superior for hunting. Reds have had a lot of the hunting bred out in favor of show dogs. You will be happy with either but I recommend the IRWS. Getting a pup from this current breeding to go with my Brittany. Coloration is similar to an orange and white Brittany. Facebook or Google devlins Irish red and white setters. The kennel name is in Gaelic- hard to spell and long. Good luck

Got an e-mail from Paul Ober yesterday. He's either got some now or soon. I think his kennel name is Celtic. You can find info for him on NRSFTC. National Red Setter Field Trial Club. Fireiron can be found on the same place. I think he said he has four litters planned for this spring, I've got on coming from there!

FYI. I don't think the OP is looking for an Irish Setter pup any longer.

Dakotazeb wrote:FYI. I don't think the OP is looking for an Irish Setter pup any longer.

I agree, BUT, if anyone checking this thread is truly interested in an Irish setter that can do it all, the Paul Ober would be one person you should talk to.

DonF did the right thing by passing on this information to anyone who has a legitimate interest.

RayG

I wouldn't take a pass on that gal in Kansas that Don mentioned, in his hunt for a pup (can't think of the kennel name) she has some nice red setters!

greg jacobs wrote:There was a deal made to breed in English setter. It was all done with everyone knowing. They had to wait for 4 generations before they could register them in fdsb. There was a reciprocal agreement with akc for a short period if time. The breed club put a stop to it when the new red setters started winning in all the Irish setter trials.

And that is the REAL reason, IMO.

The folks with the Irish that had been secretly mixed with afghan hound to get that ridiculous coat forgot that Afghans are sight hounds and don't smell for sh!t. That is the kiss of death for a bird dog, IMO. Afghans apparently ain't the brightest of breeds either, because a lack of cerebral activity is noticeable in the show Irish I have seen. Lovable and loving, but dumb as a box of rocks.

By way of contrast, most of the dual Irish dogs that I have known were pretty smart and took to training with ease.

I am not old enough to have seen them, but it is my understanding that the original Irish setters from the twenties and thirties were a little slow developing, but if they were given the time to learn and mature, they became awesome bird dogs.

The best of the dual Irish setters are on a par with the very best shooting dogs in the AF, and I mean pointers and E. Setters. when you run a dual Irish with an AKC show Irish, there is, simply put, no comparison...most of the time.

To be absolutely fair, there are some dedicated folks with AKC Irish setters that try hard to develop a quality field dog that also maintains the preferred conformation for the ring. I have seen some nice AKC Irish in field trials in recent years.

RayG

In the Irish Setter world, 'dual Irish' means a dog that goes both bench and field.

'Field bred' refers to dogs with (usually) more field abilty and less regard to the bench requirements, such as mass (bone) and coat, but retain some coat with feathering, dark red color, dark eyes, and generally moderate size. Some field bred dogs are not reciprocally registered FDSB/AKC, some are.

'Red setter' generally means an FDSB registered dog whose ancestors were the results of those esetter crosses ( some have various crosses close up which may or may not be acknowleged) which might be dual registered with AKC. These dogs can vary widely in appearance, but are generally smaller, and lighter in coat and eye color, and carry less coat.

The few dual Irish breeders I know work hard to get it right both ways in their dogs. IMO, and from what I've seen, they've made strides in the recent past. The gene pool is small so any forward momentum is hard won.

The last time I checked numbers, years ago, the AKC Irish Setter parent club was something like 3-10% field people vs 90-97% bench fanciers. The bench people by and large consider Red Setters and to a slightly lesser extent, Field bred Irish, to be abominations and they are the ones responsible for not allowing the strictly FDSB dogs back into the fold. Field Irish people would welcome a wider gene pool and assuredly are *not* afraid of the competition from honestly bred dogs ( meaning be truthful about pointer or esetter outcrosses).

Be clear that 'red setters' were not originally kicked out of the fold, but that a group of breeders decided to heck with AKC registration way back when, and quit dually registering their dogs for generations. Then when they wanted back in, it was too late. So some blame lies with them as well...it was not all about having an edge in competition.

As I understand it you can still cross register into AKC but it require's DNA testing. There are several dual registered Red Setter kennels.

Devlins kennel in Duluth Mn has a litter of exceptional Irish Red and White Setters on the ground right know. Excellent hunters. Stock is direct from Ireland. They have a Facebook page and internet site
Tough to beat if you're looking for a Setter for hunting.

TTIERNS wrote:Devlins kennel in Duluth Mn has a litter of exceptional Irish Red and White Setters on the ground right know. Excellent hunters. Stock is direct from Ireland. They have a Facebook page and internet site
Tough to beat if you're looking for a Setter for hunting.

Devlin's kennel is called "O'Dobhailien Irish Red and White Setters". Here's the link to their web site: http://www.odobhailien.com/