Help and opinions on what breed for new pup

[northwoodshunter]

I currently have a 3 year old English setter that will be steadied in July, with hopes of coverdog trialing him, and am thinking of getting a new pup his late part of summer like July or August, or next spring. I will be mostly hunting grouse when I can and hunt pheasants on trips too, maybe a quail trip if I can, I will always be considering another setter, cause I love the one I have and he’s done very well and is a great hunter even from my limited experience for training him. But I am very open to different breeds, basically any pointing breed. Not so much for vizsla or Weimaraners because I haven’t had good experiences with them as House dogs. But all dogs are different. I’ve mostly been thinking a Brittany, pointer, setter, or gsp. I like them all but was looking for some person expierences and preferences and why you like them and think they’d fit with me or why they do you. The dog will be a house dog, and hunt when I can. It will be trained until steady, whether trialing or not, and after steadied or maybe a little earlier, will hunt the two dogs as a pair and do rotating also. Size and coat isn’t a issue for me for any breed. Also was wondering if Brittany’s and shorthairs are able to run in coversog stakes? Open to any other breed as well. Let me know some opinions on what to get or why you like what you have.
Thanks

[Sharon]

You've done a super job with that setter .
I''d be happy with a Pointer, Brittany or GSP ,( have had 2) , but my choice is still the setter.
Why? I love to see that breed in the field with that tail high in the air - white is even better.

Uplanders Little Lady - still working hard at 13 years of age

https://flic.kr/p/27CuGMm

( The above dog's dam is in the avatar..... Uplanders Contessa)

(The sire is 5xCH Shady Hills Billy)

https://flic.kr/p/28DzLmE

** I don't know who took the pics so can't give credit- sorry.

[birddogger2]

NWH -

As Sharon said, any of those four breeds, pointer, setter, Brittany or shorthair should do you fine.

Since you seem to be more interested in cover dog type dogs, I would focus my puppy search there. You will find mostly E. Setters and some pointers in the competitive cover dog world. I think you will be hard pressed to find Brits or shorthairs in coverdog competitions.

This is NOT to say that either breed, or FDSB Irish setters for that matter, will not make very good grouse and woodcock dogs. They most certainly will. It is just that in the competitive arena, it is mostly E. Setters and some pointers.

Most of the cover dogs I have seen tend to be on the smaller side. That may well be a consideration for you, especially since you will be having them as house dogs. There are smallish pointers, but some of them get pretty large, especially males. Most shorthairs I have seen are on the larger side, again, especially males.

Brittanys tend to be more compact than pointers and shorthairs. they also tend to be very social and fun dogs to be around.

Lastly, pointers and shorthairs have a different kind of coat. It is short, but the hairs are like needles and stick into fabric, making it a PIA to remove. The longer haired dog's hair tends to lay on top making it look a bit more unsightly, but much easier to vacuum up.

As with E. Setters, there are lines, and there are lines in pointers, brittanys and shorthairs. a few lines in brittanys , some lines in shorthairs and many lines in pointers are bred with a focus on ability and willingness to cover large amounts of ground. This may not be all that desirable for the hunter in grouse cover.

Based on your expressed desires and previous experience... I would suggest that you focus your search on cover dog bred E. Setters and if you wanted something different, but still very good to hunt over, in cover, Brittanys that are not from all age lines. The dark colored ones can tend to be a challenge to spot in heavy cover, but there are plenty with a lot of white.

Just so you know...I run pointers myself and always have.

RayG

[Gordon Guy]

Have you considered a Gordon Setter? They are a setter too and most have an off switch for the house and turn it on when out hunting. They generally have an excellent nose and point their birds from a good ways off making them excellent grouse hunting prospects. The field bred dogs have less of a coat, the duals and bench dogs might have a little more fur to contend with. The Dual or bench line (That hunt) would also work well if you're wanting a closer working dog for the grouse woods. There are generally 4 types of Gordon's, Bench or Show, Dual dogs, field lines and trial dogs, with gray areas in between. You need to do some home work and know what you're looking for. You mentioned running your E. Setter in Cover dog trials. I've never competed in a cover dog trial but the trial style dogs are competitive in the all breed AKC trials out here in the Northwest. We (Those that run Gordon's) get a few ribbons every now and then in spite of the low participation. I would love to see more Gordon's showing their stuff in the trial world.

[Meller]

Gordon Guy that is one nice looking Setter!

[Gordon Guy]

Gordon Guy that is one nice looking Setter!

This is Dot, she IS a nice dog... Thank you!

[northwoodshunter]

Birddogger2- I was thinking of getting another coverdog need aetter like you think, I just want to look st all options and look into things like Brittany’s and gsps even being able to run in them or not and what other people think and what they use and how the other breeds typically hunt and act and such. Thanks for the advice and I’m definitely thinking of just doing that again.

Gordon Guy- I have somewhat looked into the Gordon setter and same as Irish setter, but for both and more so the Gordon, I have not been able to find may breeders for just field and with good hunting lines and the ones I do find are too far. I will travel a good distance to get a pup but fully across the country I can’t. I don’t know much about the Gordon’s but I do like how they look and if I found a breeder I would be interested in at least talking to them about possibly getting a pup.


I will look into these things.
Will a Brittany have trouble running in cover dog trials? And I would also like a good amount of natural point in a pup as I am not a professional trainer and that helps a lot. Everything is to breed generalizations or specific bloodlines anyone on here knows as I know each dog and bloodline is different.

[Gordon Guy]

Take a look at gundogbreeders.com This website has quite a list of Gordon breeders. As well as many other breeds. For Gordon Setters, most of the breeders listed on that site breed the field dogs. There are a few trial dog breeders and a few breeders of the dual dogs too. The Midwest is where the majority of the Gordon breeders call home.

[birddogger2]

Birddogger2- I was thinking of getting another coverdog need aetter like you think, I just want to look st all options and look into things like Brittany’s and gsps even being able to run in them or not and what other people think and what they use and how the other breeds typically hunt and act and such. Thanks for the advice and I’m definitely thinking of just doing that again.

Gordon Guy- I have somewhat looked into the Gordon setter and same as Irish setter, but for both and more so the Gordon, I have not been able to find may breeders for just field and with good hunting lines and the ones I do find are too far. I will travel a good distance to get a pup but fully across the country I can’t. I don’t know much about the Gordon’s but I do like how they look and if I found a breeder I would be interested in at least talking to them about possibly getting a pup.


I will look into these things.
Will a Brittany have trouble running in cover dog trials? And I would also like a good amount of natural point in a pup as I am not a professional trainer and that helps a lot. Everything is to breed generalizations or specific bloodlines anyone on here knows as I know each dog and bloodline is different.

NWH -

I am glad Gordon guy responded. I had forgotten to mention that breed. A member of the club I belong to has national level quality Gordons and they ARE very nice dogs. They are a dark colored dog, so there will be someheat tolerance considerations.

As far as Brittanys are concerned, I have seen some pretty good ones as well. At my club there are national level quality Brittanys as well, and I have seen a fair bunch of them in competition.
My brother-in-law raised some pretty nice gundog Brittanys for a number of years and I hunted over a bunch of them. Nice dogs, good noses, great dispositions, sensitive and smart, but relatively easy to train because they seemed to want to do what you wanted them to do. He has been out of it for several years now.

I don't personally do cover dog stuff, but I see no reason why a Britt cannot be competitive. As I said previously, most cover dog trials are populated with E. Setters and some pointers. There may well be some traditionalist stuff going on, but that stuff goes on, to some extent in all areas of performance dog competitions, I think. To me, a good dog is a good dog, but some folks like to see a tail with feathers on it. Just sayin'.


RayG

[northwoodshunter]

I will check out the site for the Gordon’s. And I’ll also talk to some other breeders guys. I’ve always liked all the setters and thought the Irish and Gordon’s were good looking and would eventually like to have one of them. There’s still the chances the dog wont be used for coverdog trial and a chance it will, it all depends. I’ll look into more breeders and if anyone has any breeders for any breed of pointing dog lines that are recommended I’ll look into it.

[northwoodshunter]

Anyone know much about Llewellin Setters? I know some about them, never seen or hunted over one but have always been interested in knowing about them.

[Sharon]

"Will a Brittany have trouble running in cover dog trials?" quote northwoods guy

Not in my opinion:

https://www.google.ca/search?rlz=1C1CHB ... 2&dpr=1.25

Suggest you also join the Cover Dog Forum if that's what you want to participate in. Lots of good stuff to learn there.

A llewellin setter would be a bigger dog than I 'd want in the house. jmo

http://www.gundogmag.com/breeds/team-pl ... in-setter/

[Meller]

Lewellyn's are nice and calm in the house, and full of fire in the field, at least the one I have is; and depending on the dog are no larger than some Brittney's, wish you were closer, I would show mine in the field. If you are wanting a Gordon check with Melrose Gordon Setters close to Kansas City Mo., field hunting dogs.

[ezzy333]

Birddogger2- I was thinking of getting another coverdog need aetter like you think, I just want to look st all options and look into things like Brittany’s and gsps even being able to run in them or not and what other people think and what they use and how the other breeds typically hunt and act and such. Thanks for the advice and I’m definitely thinking of just doing that again.

Gordon Guy- I have somewhat looked into the Gordon setter and same as Irish setter, but for both and more so the Gordon, I have not been able to find may breeders for just field and with good hunting lines and the ones I do find are too far. I will travel a good distance to get a pup but fully across the country I can’t. I don’t know much about the Gordon’s but I do like how they look and if I found a breeder I would be interested in at least talking to them about possibly getting a pup.


I will look into these things.
Will a Brittany have trouble running in cover dog trials? And I would also like a good amount of natural point in a pup as I am not a professional trainer and that helps a lot. Everything is to breed generalizations or specific bloodlines anyone on here knows as I know each dog and bloodline is different.

Britts do well in coverdog trials, just were not used up in that country for grouse hunting.

[northwoodshunter]

I figured they’d compete and do well, just a couple people that trial up here in coverdog said that they haven’t seen one win since they’ve been dojng it

[Featherfinder]

I had delightful Brittanys for over 25 years. I did compete against setters in cover trials with my Brittany. I actually won first on a number of occasions and placed in more. She was an exceptional Brittany though, with Beans Blaze and Rimarda's Trademark breeding.
As Ray mentioned, the cover trials are dominated by setters and pointers but other breeds do sneak in now and then. The thing with cover trials typically is that the winning dog has to showcase the mandated trial attributes. However, in cover trials it is all trumped by finding and showing the judge(s) a grouse find. That in-of-itself can be a challenge or an advantage.
In any trial (with planted birds) dogs need to fulfill the requirements of the stakes. With cover trials, the dogs need to fulfill the requirements but also are required to have the nose/pace/savvy/training to handle wild grouse assuming there are grouse on your course when you run.
Sometimes (thankfully not often), a wonderful dog might not have had an equal opportunity on grouse...simply unlucky on that day or that time of day.
So what does this all mean? With all my years and successes with Britts, today I own a setter (and always will) I picked up a pointer pup more recently but might have to place her even though I think she is remarkable! I'd go with a cover bred setter. Hard to beat in cover trials as well as wild bird hunting - logically. My second choice would be a proven cover-bred pointer. Go with the proven performers for that venue. JME.
Both breeds require a competent handler at the helm as with any competitive trialing breed but especially these 2.
I'm partial to white dogs but as Gordon Guy mentioned, there are some exceptional Gordons (and Reds too). You really need to do your research there-in.

[Gordon Guy]

Lewellyn's are nice and calm in the house, and full of fire in the field, at least the one I have is; and depending on the dog are no larger than some Brittney's, wish you were closer, I would show mine in the field. If you are wanting a Gordon check with Melrose Gordon Setters close to Kansas City Mo., field hunting dogs.

A couple weeks ago I spoke with Russ of Melrose kennels, he is no longer breeding dogs. Things are changing in the Gordon world. There is a guy up in Big Lake MN that has several of his dogs and has used Russ's personal hunting dogs as a stud. I believe the call name for his dogs/kennel is CLKennels. Charlie Larson is the guys name. He may be having a litter as he bred one of his females 3 or 4 weeks ago.

[DonF]

Gordon Guy that is one nice looking Setter!

He brought his Gordon's over here to Madras two or three years ago and his dog's rip! I have seen just a handfull of Gordons I've liked over the years and his were some of them.

[DonF]

I can't imagine why a Britt wouldn't work in cover dog trials. But, If your gonna run in cover, I think I would train in cover! I think ever a Wirehair, Shorthair ect could compete in cover dog trials IF, that's what they were trained to do! You live in the right place to train IMO, go for it! You break out the dog same as anyother dog but the dog learns where to look for birds. I'm not sure if you need a bird to win in those trials but probably. I judged a couple AF trials several years ago, first time and had a really nice pointer go birdless. It was great in all other aspect's. Talked to the other judge, long time AF judge and told him other than for bird work, I really liked it. He told me we didn't need bird work to place a dog so I gave it a second and first did go to a dog with bird work. But had that dog been in a cover dog trial I believe it would have been out of judgment to long. We could see long way where that trial was. I don't think you'd get away with range like that in cover dog. I'have seen dog's running AKC Gun Dog stakes that I think might have been able to run cover dog but they simply aren't run out here! I would pick the breed I think I'd want and train for the trials I want to run in. I think to much that I'd really like to try cover dog myself but it's a long way to the trials and ever a long way to good training ground out here. Hopefully a Red Setter pup by next spring.

[Featherfinder]

DonF, setters and pointers dominate the cover trial venue and it's not because of the length of their tails. GSPs, Brittanys etc. are at a distinct disadvantage. It is what it is.
For most "short-tails" the goal is to run like a pointer/setter. Even when they do....they aren't 1/2 way there. That's the part many struggle to understand.
I know. I was one.

[bustingcover]

Britts do compete in coverdog trials well but they’re definitely a minority breed in that game. I recommend getting a Setter from Long Gone Kennels or Grouse Ridge.

[JONOV]

Is your first priority a different hunting dog or do you want to compete in coverdog trials?

By that I mean, there is no reason the other breeds you mentioned couldn't compete, just that they don't have the volume or track record in those venues. As a hunting dog, I doubt you'll find that one is far better than the other.

[birddogger2]

Is your first priority a different hunting dog or do you want to compete in coverdog trials?

By that I mean, there is no reason the other breeds you mentioned couldn't compete, just that they don't have the volume or track record in those venues. As a hunting dog, I doubt you'll find that one is far better than the other.

Well said and I agree.

RayG

[northwoodshunter]

Well first is that it will be another bird dog with good bloodline, natural abotlitt needs to be there from the breeding, but I would possibly want to do the coverdog trials, that’s why I want to just get a pup that I’ll be hoping to do those with, but if it doesn’t quite workout or if it doesn’t quite have what it takes, I wouldn’t be too heartbroken cause I still have a very great hunting dog in it. That is basically what I’m doing with my setter right now but I got into the whole wanting to do the coverdog trials with him a little late but he’s not too old yet. He’s gonna get steadied and the trainer does those trials and is going to tell me what he thinks and if he thinks he will be able to do these trials. If he is and we do, I definitely want to try with the new pup. If he can’t or we don’t, then I just want the new pup steady and maybe try again maybe not. Either way whether it and my dog trial or not they will still be our family house dogs, and my hunting dogs for when I go in pheasant trips and when I take em out for grouse here.

[northwoodshunter]

I’m in contact with my breeder and he said if any one of his buddies has puppies from dogs he knows and has seen work that he thinks will turn out good, he will let me know. I’m still also thinking about a a Brittany and pointer. The pointer quite a bit more. I like how much natural ability they seem to generally have and retrieving doesn’t matter too much to me, but more and more are becoming natural. I also like the brittanies though, but haven’t found many keenly near with a ton of bunting lines. I found one kennel I like for Brittanys but I’m also not seeing as much online for them where I’ve been looking. Still deciding on what to get but I have at least a little time to decide. and i think it’d be good to get one of the other try one and then later on in many years when I’d get my next pup I’d know between the breeds what I’ll want, having already experienced at least two different ones. I know I’ll like and enjoy whatever I get if he 3 but also wanting the one best fit.

[shags]

Maybe you should consider waiting a little bit before jumping into another dog. If you think you might be interested on coverdog trials, attend a few with your trainer, who can explain the ins and outs to you. You might learn that you really like the coverdog trial scene, or that it isn't the thing for you.

If you become intersted in the trials ( talking American Field trials, not AKC) and want to compete, consider e-setters and pointers, because they dominate. You can enter and run other breeds, but winning could be a steep uphill battle. The off-breeds face a bit of prejudice IME in those circles, and it can be hard to overcome it. If you decide to run other than setter/pointer, and winning doesn't matter, go with whichever breed you like otherwise. But from experience, I can tell you trialing can be tough on your wallet, and spending the money without much chance of winning can take the fun out of a weekend really fast.

If you have any AKC coverdog trials up your way, then which breed doesn't matter, they all seem to have a shot at being competitive. I think one AKC club runs a cover dog trial in Pennsylvania, so there are not many in my area, IDK about by you.

It's just two different cultures, not right or wrong either way about breeds between the two formats.

If you see some trials and gain some understanding, but decide you aren't interested, then choose whichever breed you like best as a hunting dog amd companion.

Good luck in your research, and the search. IMO you are wise to be thinking ahead and forming a plan.

[JONOV]

I’m in contact with my breeder and he said if any one of his buddies has puppies from dogs he knows and has seen work that he thinks will turn out good, he will let me know. I’m still also thinking about a a Brittany and pointer. The pointer quite a bit more. I like how much natural ability they seem to generally have and retrieving doesn’t matter too much to me, but more and more are becoming natural. I also like the brittanies though, but haven’t found many keenly near with a ton of bunting lines. I found one kennel I like for Brittanys but I’m also not seeing as much online for them where I’ve been looking. Still deciding on what to get but I have at least a little time to decide. and i think it’d be good to get one of the other try one and then later on in many years when I’d get my next pup I’d know between the breeds what I’ll want, having already experienced at least two different ones. I know I’ll like and enjoy whatever I get if he 3 but also wanting the one best fit.

You might also look at the Epagneul Breton breeders. They are supposedly far more true to the "original type" or whatever of the Brittany. They were bred for woodcock hunting in France. Whether or not its a different breed is another can of worms, and you're likely to pay more for one.

I've seen a couple at NAVHDA and I've been really impressed. Super nice dogs. If all I hunted were Grouse and Woodcock I'd look hard at one.

[ezzy333]

Is your first priority a different hunting dog or do you want to compete in coverdog trials?

By that I mean, there is no reason the other breeds you mentioned couldn't compete, just that they don't have the volume or track record in those venues. As a hunting dog, I doubt you'll find that one is far better than the other.

Right on as that is what I tried to say but not nearly as good as you.


Well said and I agree.

RayG

[Featherfinder]

I have to disagree Ray/Jonov/ezzy3. Setters and pointers do have an advantage at the top levels of horseback and cover trials. The results support the numbers rather than the other way around. Like I said, good setters/pointers have to slip up for a short-tail to get a piece of the action. It is what it is. I learned that the hard way. I'm not saying it CAN'T be done with a short-tail.
There are genetic dynamics that make certain breeds better at some venues than others. That's why we have flushers, retrievers, hounds, etc. If you want a jack-of-all-trades dog you might pick a versatile over a pointer or setter for good reason. Even within these classes, there are specialists. We also had another post where we discussed that there are GSPs and there are GSPs.
Of course there is always the rare exception. But why go into the venue backing up for a head start? If you sincerely want to be competitive with your cover trial dog, you need to hedge your efforts.
A couple of super cover-setter breeders have already been offered. There are also a few other decent cover dog breeders. If it's a cover-pointer you take a hankerin' to, you should seriously consider Bruce Minard at HiFive Kennels in Michigan. At least you are starting out on a good foundation.