caveat emptor

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nevermind
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caveat emptor

Post by nevermind » Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:22 pm

RE: Dog Breeders
My thoughts, after an experience with a dog breeder. Here's my red flags.
1. $100 should be sufficient to hold a pup. Anymore why?
2. Seller says pup's are to be picked up before 8 weeks.
3. Seller says no pictures or seeing pup's until pick up date.
4. Seller try's to substitute a different dame or sire than agreed breeding.
Anyone want to add or rebut... maybe we can give a 1st time buyers some guide lines to legitimate dog breeders.

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SCT
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Re: caveat emptor

Post by SCT » Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:39 pm

$100 is all I ask for a deposit, if I can't produce a pup it's refunded, if the client backs out it's not.

My pups don't leave my premises prior to 8 weeks.

Photos and videos are a must, of parents and pups, and prefer clients come and see the parents work prior to deposit.

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Re: caveat emptor

Post by polmaise » Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:20 pm

nevermind wrote: Anyone want to add or rebut... maybe we can give a 1st time buyers some guide lines to legitimate dog breeders.
Same advice as buying anything ..... ??
Mind you . You can give all the advice you want and some folk still don't buy what You think they should buy .
Sometimes they even buy the opposite of the advice ,just to spite you :roll: :wink: :lol:

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Re: caveat emptor

Post by Timewise65 » Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:55 pm

The biggest mistake 'buyers' make is to go and see the pups, before all the homework on pedigree, breeder contract, breeder reputation, etc. is complete. You will enevetabliy bring a pup home with you (or agree to buy one)….it is hard to walk away from a puppy....

So do your homework first....same advise on buying a car.... :mrgreen:

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Re: caveat emptor

Post by cjhills » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:02 pm

SCT wrote:$100 is all I ask for a deposit, if I can't produce a pup it's refunded, if the client backs out it's not.

My pups don't leave my premises prior to 8 weeks.

Photos and videos are a must, of parents and pups, and prefer clients come and see the parents work prior to deposit.
this is exactly what I do. I would prefer ten weeks,second shots and crate training started,but I don't really have the facilties to do that with the whole litter. I think it is very traumatic for a 8 week old puppy to get yanked away from his litter mates and have to go with big ugly strangers and have to sleep in a cold crate by himself.
It is very rare to have somebody come to see the puppies that don't buy one but we have usually had several phone conversations and have decided if we are going to sell them a puppy or not We also pretty much pick the puppies for the buyers, some don't know it.
Our goal is to get good situation for the puppies....................Cj

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Re: caveat emptor

Post by ultracarry » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:18 pm

What I do.
7-8 weeks depending on the puppy
Reservations can be made without a deposit.
Deposit once pups are born (can send earlier but I won’t cash it)
My dogs have good pedigrees and my first was by luck (pet store)... FC AFC MH RU/Ch


Red flags
- “Champion pedigree” and no parents champion
- “Hunting stock” no such thing
- Shady individuals creating a name from breeding other peoples lines and shamelessly selling ideas that the dogs hunt - when in fact, they don’t even hunt (a lot of people do this).
- Breeders acting like a JH is a accomplished title.
- Still naming rawhides clown in pedigree descriptions 5-6-7-8-9 generations back.
- Brittany breeders / owners
- Breeders posting pictures of “limits” of preserve birds.
- People selling ugly Dogs

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SCT
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Re: caveat emptor

Post by SCT » Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:51 pm

ultracarry wrote:
Red flags
- “Champion pedigree” and no parents champion
- “Hunting stock” no such thing
- Shady individuals creating a name from breeding other peoples lines and shamelessly selling ideas that the dogs hunt - when in fact, they don’t even hunt (a lot of people do this).
- Breeders acting like a JH is a accomplished title.
- Still naming rawhides clown in pedigree descriptions 5-6-7-8-9 generations back.
- Brittany breeders / owners
- Breeders posting pictures of “limits” of preserve birds.
- People selling ugly Dogs
HaHaHa I'll add "breeders" posting photos of parents on point with check cords attached.

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SCT
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Re: caveat emptor

Post by SCT » Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:00 pm

cjhills wrote:
SCT wrote:$100 is all I ask for a deposit, if I can't produce a pup it's refunded, if the client backs out it's not.

My pups don't leave my premises prior to 8 weeks.

Photos and videos are a must, of parents and pups, and prefer clients come and see the parents work prior to deposit.
this is exactly what I do. I would prefer ten weeks,second shots and crate training started,but I don't really have the facilties to do that with the whole litter. I think it is very traumatic for a 8 week old puppy to get yanked away from his litter mates and have to go with big ugly strangers and have to sleep in a cold crate by himself.
It is very rare to have somebody come to see the puppies that don't buy one but we have usually had several phone conversations and have decided if we are going to sell them a puppy or not We also pretty much pick the puppies for the buyers, some don't know it.
Our goal is to get good situation for the puppies....................Cj
I like 10 weeks too, as you can tell a lot more about the pups. Very few people are willing to wait that long, and I'm fine with 8 or 9 weeks. I always tell the new owners to expect the pups to be depressed for a day or so, but they seem to always call the next day and tell me no such thing occurred.

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Re: caveat emptor

Post by ezzy333 » Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:33 pm

I always weaned around 5 weeks and then started giving the pups individual time, car rides, and nail trims before they went home with someone. Hopefully it helped the new owners for those first few days if I had them started in those areas.

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Re: caveat emptor

Post by cjhills » Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:00 am

My biggest problem as a breeder is making buyers understand that the sweet little puppy is going to try to establish his position in his new pack and will not always be a sweet little puppy. The puppy has a hard time living up to what his new family thinks they are buying. But they usually do it...……………….Cj

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Re: caveat emptor

Post by DonF » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:07 am

The few pup's I had I also didn't let go till 10 weeks. Then they got the second puppy shot and a bit more time with the litter. I suggested another shot at 14 weeks and a final at 20 weeks. Never charged a deposit.

Funny story about puppy's. Had a guy and his wife over looking at puppy's many years ago. They were playing with them and the guy was having a bad time choosing. Finally his wife picked one up and held it to her face and it grabbed her nose. She streaked and the guy said he'd take that one right away! Next day the guy showed up looking really down, had the puppy with his. His wife told him he had to take it back. Really was funny. Guy couldn't make up his mind till one bit his wife! :-)

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Re: caveat emptor

Post by ddoyle » Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:27 am

Along the lines of champion bloodlines is then the parents only have JH. Proceed with caution and see parents work!

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Re: caveat emptor

Post by JONOV » Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:50 am

nevermind wrote:RE: Dog Breeders
My thoughts, after an experience with a dog breeder. Here's my red flags.
1. $100 should be sufficient to hold a pup. Anymore why?
I wouldn't get held up on it. I hate to answer a question with a question, but if you're serious about the dog, why are you balking at more? I think mine was $200. There is something to be said for "skin in the game" if the breeder is going to be put in a lurch finding buyers for a dog at the 11th hour, and answering the whole "well I don't want what someone else rejected. There must be something wrong with it." Its a mental thing with some buyers. It doesn't make sense but it doesn't have to make sense. Its a reality. I guess some of it depends on the price of the dog too. $100 on a $700 dog is not the same as a $100 on a $1500 dog.
nevermind wrote: 2. Seller says pup's are to be picked up before 8 weeks.
Eh...There are a lot of people that seem to let them go at 7 weeks. And, I think that its written in some old literature too...maybe something in a DD publication? Not sure. And while I understand that there's a real value to a breeder/pro/trialer to see them at 9 or 10, I'm not so convinced about the dog. Socialization is the responsibility of the owner. You will have that dog for the next 10 out of the first 12 months. This past weekend I saw a dog that was of a great breeding, solid pedigree, and horrid, horrid socialization. I could have picked that dog up at 5 weeks and had a better dog than where this dog is at.
nevermind wrote: 3. Seller says no pictures or seeing pup's until pick up date.
I'd be pretty put out by this. I do know breeders that say, "i send pics once a week, no more" or "once every three days, no more" to limit the amount of demands from buyers to see the puppies. That's reasonable.
nevermind wrote:4. Seller try's to substitute a different dame or sire than agreed breeding.
Anyone want to add or rebut... maybe we can give a 1st time buyers some guide lines to legitimate dog breeders.
I'd be steamed and back out at that. I have read it as an option held by breeders at some larger kennels.

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Re: caveat emptor

Post by shags » Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:51 pm

nevermind wrote:
4. Seller try's to substitute a different dame or sire than agreed breeding.
Anyone want to add or rebut... maybe we can give a 1st time buyers some guide lines to legitimate dog breeders.


I don't think is a bad thing on the face of it. Say the breeder is expecting X number of pups, and has taken deposits on them all, or has multiple requests for one sex, and winds up with fewer pups or not enough of the requested sex. If there is another litter due with different parents, that otherwise suits the buyers, I think it's reasonable to ask the out-of- luck buyer(s) if they would like to apply their deposits to the next litter.

But I'd be upset if I was walking out the door with my new pup, and the breeder did a "Oh by the way..." :|

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Re: caveat emptor

Post by JONOV » Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:59 pm

shags wrote:nevermind wrote:
4. Seller try's to substitute a different dame or sire than agreed breeding.
Anyone want to add or rebut... maybe we can give a 1st time buyers some guide lines to legitimate dog breeders.


I don't think is a bad thing on the face of it. Say the breeder is expecting X number of pups, and has taken deposits on them all, or has multiple requests for one sex, and winds up with fewer pups or not enough of the requested sex. If there is another litter due with different parents, that otherwise suits the buyers, I think it's reasonable to ask the out-of- luck buyer(s) if they would like to apply their deposits to the next litter.

But I'd be upset if I was walking out the door with my new pup, and the breeder did a "Oh by the way..." :|
It’s reasonable to ask, not expect a buyer to agree.

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Re: caveat emptor

Post by nevermind » Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:59 pm

JONOV... Thanks for the input. I still believe $100 deposit is enough skin, anymore is just an advantage to the questionable seller. A deposit increase because of price of pup?... full price is paid on delivery, where is there more loss to the seller verse what the buyer loses, if seller doesn't live up to the agreement on a non -refundable deposit?
Demand that pups be picked up before 8 weeks... I would like to hear more from breeders on this, so far most I've talked to don't let go of their pups until 8 weeks, but that's just 6-7 breeders. 1 said 6 weeks then changed to 7 weeks, when called out on it.

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Re: caveat emptor

Post by ultracarry » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:04 pm

I would think it is a difference in how pups are raised from day one in which will let someone know if a dog can go home at 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 weeks old.

I say this because it’s easy for someone to project an image that they know about these pups if they are raised outdoors, A hands off kennel dog approach or are these breeders taking 7-8 weeks off work to raise them to make them someone’s dream dog? Start kennel training, separating from littermates for an amount of time, teaching them to trust you and rely on you?

There is a reason some people charge more and don’t worry about the deposit. Sounds like you tried to buy a cheap pup realistically (no offense). When you look for a deal expect to pay more in the long run either monetarily or mentally you will be taken advantage of. Wether it be a shady breeder, crap lines, bad temperaments, sh‼️T stompers, eaters, mentally screwed up pups.

If you were given a chance would you spend twice as much for reliability or half as much for a disposable version ? Remember it’s a 14-16 year commitment... if you could pick your own kid and how they spent the first part of their life would you pick one from good parents, or the one that was neglected and then sold for profit because people that are passionate about this will never break even by raising puppies. Proven dogs cost a lot to campaign, will not have more than a hand full of litters either .

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caveat emptor

Post by welsh » Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:09 pm

Just from a puppy socialization standpoint 7 weeks is now considered too early. Thus the widespread 8 week standard.

Feral dogs typically abandon their pups at 10 weeks.

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Re: caveat emptor

Post by nevermind » Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:29 am

ultracarry… I think you are missing the point of the post. This post is just to be informed when dealing with dog breeders.
Price of dog has nothing to do with this post, if asked $400 deposit for a $800 pup that would raise some caution on my part.... BTW it's been awhile since I bought a pup, but I look at bloodlines and confirmation of parents. The price you pay for a pup really isn't foolproof you won't end up with a dud for a dog.

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Re: caveat emptor

Post by ultracarry » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:15 am

Deposits are usually percentages in business. $400 pup with a $100 deposit is 25% ... $1000 at 10% is a hundred which is more realistic as far as risk vs reward goes.

For your deposit to be refunded after the change, you are at the breeders mercy lol . it’s not worth going after it if you factor in the time it takes to go to small claims... plus the sellers location is where you have to go for court (if out of your county) and the time you spend driving, gas, time filling out paperwork and waiting for the cases before you... business is business and deposits are supposed to be percentages but obviously people don’t usually get all that’s involved once things go bad in the dog world. And it goes to heck in a hand basket quick.

I’m sure if you contacted the breeder, contacted references, contacted owners of pervious Dogs in the pedigree and did your due diligence these things don’t just “pop up” and usually happens often. It’s pretty simple as I have seen it done a few times :) stolen Dogs, puppies sold without the owners permission, stolen litters, selling a dog out from under the stud dogs owner, not paying stud dogs owner after papers were signed...

That’s why I painted a good picture not for just you but others that may look for a dog and can learn from your mistakes. Breeders that are more hands on and have good references are worth the money. Or maybe we are on different levels on how it’s about the totality of the circumstances while you are concentrating on being a victim

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Re: caveat emptor

Post by JONOV » Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:07 pm

nevermind wrote:JONOV... Thanks for the input. I still believe $100 deposit is enough skin, anymore is just an advantage to the questionable seller. A deposit increase because of price of pup?... full price is paid on delivery, where is there more loss to the seller verse what the buyer loses, if seller doesn't live up to the agreement on a non -refundable deposit?
Demand that pups be picked up before 8 weeks... I would like to hear more from breeders on this, so far most I've talked to don't let go of their pups until 8 weeks, but that's just 6-7 breeders. 1 said 6 weeks then changed to 7 weeks, when called out on it.
The seller shouldn't be questionable. Either you've done your homework on the dog you want, or you haven't. Using the deposit amount is an odd metric, especially in raw dollar amounts. I stayed at a hotel for work recently, they charged $200 of an $800 stay when I made the reservation. If you don't trust the pedigree, or the person selling the dog, find another one. You aren't buying a lawnmower on craigslist.
welsh wrote:Just from a puppy socialization standpoint 7 weeks is now considered too early. Thus the widespread 8 week standard.

Feral dogs typically abandon their pups at 10 weeks.

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It is the most common, and in some states they've made it the law.

I still struggle to believe it makes much difference. What difference does it make, 6 weeks or 8 weeks, compared to the 10 months of that first year you spend socializing the dog? Whether the breeder lets it go at 6 weeks or 12 weeks, if you take it home, throw him in a kennel run and do nothing else the dog is going to be awful.

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caveat emptor

Post by welsh » Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:51 pm

JONOV wrote:I still struggle to believe it makes much difference. What difference does it make, 6 weeks or 8 weeks, compared to the 10 months of that first year you spend socializing the dog?
A puppy is developing rapidly not just in terms of what it is learning but also in neurological terms, so yes, it does make a difference.



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Re: caveat emptor

Post by SCT » Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:34 pm

""What difference does it make, 6 weeks or 8 weeks, compared to the 10 months of that first year you spend socializing the dog?""

Actually in canines socialization begins at 3 weeks and ends at 16 weeks. Some will say it diminishes from 12-16 weeks. Also, at 6 weeks old the puppies are not completely developed socially (pack mentality) and they require more time with siblings for proper mental development. The exception is when someone wants to "imprint" a puppy for specific jobs like herding or as handicap partners.

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Re: caveat emptor

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:48 pm

JONOV wrote:
nevermind wrote:JONOV... Thanks for the input. I still believe $100 deposit is enough skin, anymore is just an advantage to the questionable seller. A deposit increase because of price of pup?... full price is paid on delivery, where is there more loss to the seller verse what the buyer loses, if seller doesn't live up to the agreement on a non -refundable deposit?
Demand that pups be picked up before 8 weeks... I would like to hear more from breeders on this, so far most I've talked to don't let go of their pups until 8 weeks, but that's just 6-7 breeders. 1 said 6 weeks then changed to 7 weeks, when called out on it.
The seller shouldn't be questionable. Either you've done your homework on the dog you want, or you haven't. Using the deposit amount is an odd metric, especially in raw dollar amounts. I stayed at a hotel for work recently, they charged $200 of an $800 stay when I made the reservation. If you don't trust the pedigree, or the person selling the dog, find another one. You aren't buying a lawnmower on craigslist.
welsh wrote:Just from a puppy socialization standpoint 7 weeks is now considered too early. Thus the widespread 8 week standard.

Feral dogs typically abandon their pups at 10 weeks.

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It is the most common, and in some states they've made it the law.

I still struggle to believe it makes much difference. What difference does it make, 6 weeks or 8 weeks, compared to the 10 months of that first year you spend socializing the dog? Whether the breeder lets it go at 6 weeks or 12 weeks, if you take it home, throw him in a kennel run and do nothing else the dog is going to be awful.
Read some of the literature that the guide dog people have discovered in their work. It might answer some of your questions.

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Re: caveat emptor

Post by rinker » Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:29 am

I am a small time pointer breeder. Usually one litter per year, sometimes two, sometimes none. For many years, I did not take deposits, I just put names on a list and called them when the time came. I was always amazed at how many people backed out at the last second. So, I have started asking for a $50, deposit, and this has helped a lot. If someone balks at sending a $50, deposit, they are not very serious.

I have had a problem come up seemingly just over the last couple of years. Let's say someone is the second person to send me a deposit. The pups are already whelped so I know what I have. The person tells me that they want a liver male. They come to pick up the pup, and say, "I like that orange female better, I'll take her". I have already promised the orange female to someone else. This has been an issue a couple of times now.

My advice to puppy buyers is this. Find a breeder that you trust, with a litter that you like. Buy a pup and do your best with it. Worrying about which individual pup to pick is the last step, and really pretty unimportant as compared to everything else in the process.

I have probably bought, somewhere between 50 and 100 puppies over the years. A couple of those transactions haven't gone perfectly and a couple of those pups didn't work out. I learned from this and move forward.

I have probably sold or given away 300 to 400, puppies and dogs over the years. A couple of those transactions haven't gone perfectly and a couple 0f those pups didn't work out for their new owners. I did everything I could to make it right, and I learned from this and moved forward.

A guy called me a few years ago about buying a very nice, very well started dog. He said that he wanted the dog, and would pay the asking price. The guy lived 1000+ miles away. Just by coincidence, I know of someone going that direction the very next day. I told the guy that I could send the dog the next day, if he would just go ahead and put a check in the mail. He said that he would. I did get paid, but it took several months and the involvement of the local sheriff where the guy lived. I was mad, and decided that I wan't going to do business anymore based on a hand shake or verbal agreement. I was always going to require money in advance and take a much harder line. Within a short time, I calmed down and realized that I didn't want to punish the many honest people that I deal with because of one con man. If you can believe it, that guy called me about a year later and wanted to buy another dog from me.

I also give a lot of pups away for free. I would say that I give away at least a couple of pups per litter. I give them to friends and hunting buddies, or people that I know will give them a chance in competition. I have always done this just because I thought it was a nice thing to do, but it has actually been a great advertising strategy. The guys that receive them seem to feel obligated to brag on them a little, which helps future sales. I have been doing this for thirty years, people always seem grateful and want to do something in return. I just tell them, that if they ever have a litter of pups, they could offer me one. There is no way that I could take all of the free puppies offered to me now, I would have to build on to my kennel.

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