English Setter Steadying

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northwoodshunter
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English Setter Steadying

Post by northwoodshunter » Sat Sep 08, 2018 11:46 am

I posted awhile ago about steadying my 3y/o setter. I brought him to a very good trainer for all of June. He had him broke on pigeons through multiple flushes. Bird number are down around 34% I believe, where I am so the few birds found on our private property since I got him back, he has bumped one or two grouse and one woodcock. But has also held fully steady through probably 4 woodcock and 2 grouse. But I bought quail to do more on. But a problem arose with the quail. For some reason on the pigeons and so far when we’ve seen wild birds he is broke steady or pretty steady. On these quail he scents them pretty well and pins them, may point a little too close, but I started fixing that. But he chases a good amount of times after the flush of these quail. He will hold that point forever until I flush but after the bird flies he will jump at it or run a few feet. Then he usually listens to my corrections and calling him to come or whoa. Then I will pick him up and place him where he was and kick around and walk around and make him whoa till I release him. Now he is not fully whoa broke. But for the most part is pretty well with it. I’m wanting to try and trial him. Why do you think he’s chasing these quail more? I thought slightly possible that they don’t give off as much scent cause they are within 100-200 yards max ifnmot closer sometimes of their coop, so he has to scent harder and ends up closer to the bird and it flies from right next to him. As opposed to pointing farther on wild birds. I don’t know and that’s just a thought. What do any of you think or have anything else you’d recommend me doing or trying?
Thanks

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Re: English Setter Steadying

Post by shags » Sat Sep 08, 2018 1:05 pm

IME you have to stay after green broke dogs, training wise.

It seems like all my green dogs have to learn that the "broke dog" rules apply all the time, not just at the trainer's grounds or at our place, but every grounds we run on; and with pigeons, and quail, and pheasants, and woodcock etc.

Green broke dog season is the pits! But IME it all works out if you are ready to make corrections when they mess up on different species and on different grounds. Some of my caught on really fast, but others needed much more time and effort and experience to learn that they must stay broke no matter where we run or what species they encounter.

I would use whatever type of steadying your trainer used, since that's what has worked on the pigeons, on your wild birds or your released quail. Maybe call the trainer and see what he/she has to say. If you want to trial, be ready to correct every single time your dog messes up. But don't get dependent on whoaing your dog because that can take away from the picture you want to present in competition.

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OhioVizsla
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Re: English Setter Steadying

Post by OhioVizsla » Sat Sep 08, 2018 3:09 pm

Good advise by Shags to contact the trainer first.

How soft is your dog? Have you tried hooking a check cord on the dog while it is on point? Hook it up, give it 5 or 10' of slack and get ready for a jolt when it hits the end. The more slack you give it, the more the jolt. Some dogs need to be flipped, that's why I ask how soft it is. Just hold without slack it if it's soft. Say nothing to the dog if it breaks, it needs to learn to stay on it's own without a command. Praise it after it stays there.

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Garrison
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Re: English Setter Steadying

Post by Garrison » Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:15 pm

Sounds like a smart dog that remembers catching a poor flying quail a while back?

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Re: English Setter Steadying

Post by greg jacobs » Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:57 pm

OhioVizsla wrote:Good advise by Shags to contact the trainer first.

How soft is your dog? Have you tried hooking a check cord on the dog while it is on point? Hook it up, give it 5 or 10' of slack and get ready for a jolt when it hits the end. The more slack you give it, the more the jolt. Some dogs need to be flipped, that's why I ask how soft it is. Just hold without slack it if it's soft. Say nothing to the dog if it breaks, it needs to learn to stay on it's own without a command. Praise it after it stays there.
An oldtimers trick but at 15'. Some of the old ways were pretty harsh.

northwoodshunter
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Re: English Setter Steadying

Post by northwoodshunter » Sat Sep 08, 2018 11:18 pm

I will contact the trainer. And he is mildly soft. I mean he’s been on check cord and that was part of how the trainer steadied him. So he’s been on it before. I’m having trouble finding where my brother put my long check cord. So I may need to order one. And he has also never caught a quail. Since I’ve gotten him at 9 or 10 weeks old he hasn’t seen a quail except from after he got back from the trainers. I haven’t had him on a cord on these quail cause like I said I couldn’t find it and at first didn’t think I needed it for him as he did so well on pigeons and wild birds. And he even held through steady on 2 woodcock finds in one 30 min afternoon training session about A week after his first quail go around. Where he buster even more than this last time. So that’s whats confusing me most is so far it seems like it’s only the quail. But I’ll continue to stay after him like shags said and correcting him every time it’s needed. I’ll be hunting over him for grouse and woodcock season and in October I go to North Dakota for pheasant and will be taking him like normal and this will be his fourth time out there. Been going once a year since he was 6 months old. And that was his first wild bird exposure. So how should I go about handling him with the other dogs and people?

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Re: English Setter Steadying

Post by shags » Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:32 am

So the dog came back from the trainer, probably with a "yeah, he's doing real good" and you assumed the dog was well broke, only to find out he's acting like a third grader instead of a graduate of BirdDog U.
I think we've all been there once or twice.

IME it's productive with a green dog to always keep on mind that he is still in training. Every bird contact is a training session. If he handles a bird well, praise him just as you would if it was his first time. If he blows it, set him back, stand him up, just as if he made a mistake in the yard.

If I were you, I would not be hunting that dog with other dogs this season, unless they are dead broke, won't steal your dog's points, and will honor from a distance. I'd not hunt with multiple partners either; maybe one at a time if they are very into helping you and your dog. Other dogs and people put a lot of pressure on young green dogs and things can unravel fast. You'd be throwing away all your progress. I've been fortunate to work with some trainers who did trial dogs and personal gun dogs and have seen lots of dogs come back after bird hunting season needing remedial work. If you're planning on trialing, you must *always* insist on the most perfect manners possible every single time, or you will set yourself and the dog up for lots more remedial work. This season, your focus has to be on keeping your dog broke, not so much killing birds over him.

You will have many more seasons with your brag dog once you get through this annoying stage. Sacrifice this season to dialing your dog in, and in the future you will have the dog all your buddies envy. Good luck going forward.

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OhioVizsla
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Re: English Setter Steadying

Post by OhioVizsla » Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:48 am

Great advice Shags!

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Re: English Setter Steadying

Post by Trekmoor » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:25 am

Garrison wrote:Sounds like a smart dog that remembers catching a poor flying quail a while back?
That was my thought too.

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Re: English Setter Steadying

Post by birddogger2 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:44 am

northwoods hunter -

To answer your question about your dog trying to catch quail by chasing, I believe the answer is, simply...because he thinks he might be able to.

You have been given excellent advice already.

You need to understand that your dog KNOWS what it is supposed to do. It is up to you to make certain the dog understands that the same rules apply, no matter when, no matter where and no matter which kind of bird.

As far as stopping a dog that chases, I approach this a little differently than some. I instill a solid whoa in the yard by doing heel/whoa drills. There is no bird or bird scent involved. the heel and the whoa are, in essence, obedience commands.

Soooo, when I take the dog out on birds, I expect the dog's genetics to kick in and have the scent or sight of a bird replace the verbal or hand signal to stop and stand,. if the dog does not stop and stand and absolutely grow roots at first scent, or if it moves after the flush... that becomes an obedience failure and is corrected accordingly. Shags and others have given you as good a way of correcting as there is.

IMO, there is one other training technique you might wish to employ. It is the "stop to flush". Essentially, you let the dog run either with a check cord dragging or an e-collar on. In my case, since the whoa response is a conditioned obedience response, I have the e-collar on the neck. The concept is that the dog should stop and grow roots at the sight of a flying bird that it did not scent. If it does not instantly stop, have the check cord in hand or where you can step on it to put pressure on the dog to stop. Once the dog is stopped, go to the dog, move it back at least part way from where it "should have" stopped and stroke it up, style it up and make it stand for at least a full minute or even longer.

I condition my dogs to the e-collar partly because I was never quite as good with the dragging check cord as I needed to be and that was before the years caught up with my legs.

I would run all of this by your trainer to get their input. They know the dog well. The only person that should know the dog better is you yourself.

I suspect that your dog is far enough along to take a fair amount of pressure when it messes up. I also suspect your dog will understand that the corrections are coming because he IS messing up and will continue until he does what he has been trained to do.

Patience, persistence AND insistence. Be firm but not rough, and be as matter of fact as you can. Correct when necessary, praise whenever possible.

Last thing...always, always try to end the training on a positive note. If the dog does it right, even if it is the very first time out of the box, it is time to quit. Praise the dog and put it away. Let it think about it for at least a half hour or so, in the box or on the chain gang. Learn to quit a winner.

For the one dog owner who has set aside an entire Saturday to train their dog and has driven somewhere , set everything up and is ready to spend all day working... it is hard to quit after a half hour. Been there...did that.

However, it is far, far better to quit a winner than to do the lesson again and have the dog mess up because now you MUST correct, put pressure on the dog instead of praise and re-do the lesson until you get back to where you were in the first place.

Hope some of this helps.

RayG





RayG

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Re: English Setter Steadying

Post by cjhills » Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:39 am

I would do a lot more training on stop to flush with pigeons, both thrown and launcher. Get a very good "whoa" and don't be afraid to use if he moves at the flush.
Be very careful with setting the dog back and don't get angry at the dog. Don't pick the dog up by the collar and tail. Let him keep his dignity. It is embarrassing for a dog to be picked up and carried. He just needs to learn that a bird in the air means stop. Your dog will need to know that If he is going to Compete. So he might as well learn it now. At least in a hunt test if he does not stop for an accidental or wild flush you are done. I assume trials are similar.
I don't agree that he knows what he is supposed to do.He is just doing what dogs do and has not learned what you expect........Cj

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Re: English Setter Steadying

Post by birddogger2 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:39 am

cjhills wrote:I would do a lot more training on stop to flush with pigeons, both thrown and launcher. Get a very good "whoa" and don't be afraid to use if he moves at the flush.
Be very careful with setting the dog back and don't get angry at the dog. Don't pick the dog up by the collar and tail. Let him keep his dignity. It is embarrassing for a dog to be picked up and carried. He just needs to learn that a bird in the air means stop. Your dog will need to know that If he is going to Compete. So he might as well learn it now. At least in a hunt test if he does not stop for an accidental or wild flush you are done. I assume trials are similar.
I don't agree that he knows what he is supposed to do.He is just doing what dogs do and has not learned what you expect........Cj
FWIW, I would NEVER pick up a dog via collar and tail and it has nothing to do with dignity. It is far too easy to injure a dog's tail that way and picking a dog up by the collar is choking it which is far more negative pressure than is needed to bring home the lesson.

When I pickup a dog that moved on point or chased, I do so with both arms under the chest and belly. A little tough on the back, but safe for the dog. The goal is to take the dog's feet away, make him mentally uncomfortable and get his attention. No more, no less. I also absolutely agree that anger has absolutely no place in dog training. If you are THAT upset...it is you who needs to quit for a while and calm down. Easier said than done sometimes...but that is what separates the men from the boys as trainers. The trainer needs to stay focused and on message... calm and measured in their actions and reactions. The dog needs to trust you and to like being around you. That can be hard to do if you are angry.

FWIW, with a young dog that just had one of its first bird contacts and did it right...I have been known to physically pick the dog up in my arms and walk it all the way out of the field, talking calmly and reassuringly to the dog all the way. I don't want the dog to be anywhere where it can mess up and ruin the perfection of the lesson... AND I want the dog to know that being in my arms is not necessarily a bad thing, but something it just needs to do calmly and not be an idiot about. Remember LIKE and especially TRUST.

Young dogs, old dogs, smart dogs,...they will all try you and test your patience. The bolder the dog is, the more likely it is that the dog will give you the 'ol fazoole somewhere along the line. The smarter the dog is, the more likely the dog will try to out think you and come up with an "alternate solution" to the training scenario. it is GONNA happen. Believe it.

You, the trainer, needs to be mentally prepared for when things do not go the way you want. it helps to have a plan B for when Plan A falls off the rails...because sooner or later...it will. Stuff happens.

With young dogs, a healthy sense of humor helps too.

RayG

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Re: English Setter Steadying

Post by cjhills » Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:12 pm

RG.
I was not saying you picked up your dog by the tail and collar. I have know idea what you do. But, I have seen many trainers that do it routinely. I am saying don't do that.
Never seen a tail get injured or a dog choked, I never seen a dog injured by a choke chain either. But, I have seen a lot of dogs start to sit on point when they know the abuse is coming.
OP: I think it is a pretty good guess that the dog caught a quail or two at the trainer and that the quail don't fly as good as a pigeon. He is not trying to blow you off, he is just doing what he thinks will work.
A solid whoa used calmly and quietly, will cure this. It will not get better on it's own. What do you think he will do if you flush a wild pheasant in front of him. Pretty sure he will come unglued......Cj

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Re: English Setter Steadying

Post by northwoodshunter » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:11 pm

He has never caught a quail. The closest besides when I got him back was when he’s smelt and seen quail in the trainer coop by the training area. The trainer never put him on quail for that exact reason and advised me to get a launcher and pigeons for that exact reason but I couldn’t find pigeons close at all. He said if I would’ve kept him there another month he would’ve put him on quail and got him steady for those then brought him to wild sharptail training grounds he goes on. I asked him if he tried quail at all and he said no just pigeons. I got many pictures and videos throughout the month. And I agree. If I don’t keep correcting him, and I need to make sure I stay calm and don’t get frustrated, because when he goes out to North Dakota with me then he would most likely chase a big rooster if he chases quail still when we go.

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Re: English Setter Steadying

Post by cjhills » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:31 pm

If you can find Ruffed Grouse around home, they can be quite useful in stopping the chase because they are gone so quickly.

Just be a little cautious and do a much as you can away from the birds. It is easy to get frustrated take a lot out of the dog. who seems like a very nice dog....Cj

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Re: English Setter Steadying

Post by northwoodshunter » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:51 pm

Ive found a few ruffed grouse and woodcock near here. Numbers are down a ton though which is why I bought the quail. But I do try to only use the quail if we haven’t been able to find any for awhile. Because he does seem to be more broke and hold better and not chase on the wild birds.Thank you, He is a very nice dog, better than I ever thought I’d be able to get him, with me starting training and him at 15 years old. Obviously the trainer helped a lot. But I got him steady to flush and his obedience, great house dog too. I will use your and all the other advice as well as I can and whether I do trial him or not I’d like him to be fully broke either way.

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Re: English Setter Steadying

Post by Meller » Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:25 pm

Is that right, the dog is 15 years old? :?

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Re: English Setter Steadying

Post by northwoodshunter » Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:23 am

Meller, no, the dog is close to 3 1/2 years old. When I was 15 years old I got him and started him. I am 18 now.

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Re: English Setter Steadying

Post by Meller » Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:46 pm

That sounds a lot better! :)

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