Having trouble on next breed

northwoodshunter
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Having trouble on next breed

Post by northwoodshunter » Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:10 pm

Last time I posted this it seemed a pretty agreed answer to get a cover dog bred English setter, like I already have because I am hoping to trial the pup and the dog I have now. The dog I have now is coming together well and I hope to see what he’s got in them sometime this trial season. I agreed on another setter this spring/early summer, but some things I thought of changed that thought a little and now I am undecided again. Here’s what I thought/may be looking for now. I am open to any suggestions and breeders, I know of some breeders for each breed but more is always welcome and i will probably contact anyone recommended. So I have my 3y/o setter now, he’s so far a great bird dog, hopeful trial dog too. But he doesn’t do too well in the heat and seems to get very hot pretty quickly and that seems to be pretty common in setters from what a few breeders, my trainer, and the breeder I got my pup from say in their experience, so then I think maybe I should get a dog that would be a little better in the heat, then the cold tolerance isn’t a big deal as if it gets too cold I’ll my setter. So that made me think pointer and shorthair, maybe Brittany also? Then I also thought maybe I will try to get into goose for sure and some duck hunting and I know it’s harder to find setters/pointers that couldndo that. So I thought maybe shorthair or Brittany would be better for me for this next dog. But what do you guys think of a cover dog Brittany/shorthair? I’ve been told it’ll be harder for one of those breeds to compete on those events but I could always try out hunt tests too. What do you guys think about trying to get a pointer to retrieve geese? Or are there any other breed suggestions or advice on what all think?
Thanks

northwoodshunter
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Re: Having trouble on next breed

Post by northwoodshunter » Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:27 pm

Also- remember I want to be able to hunt these dogs together when they are trained and potentially when the pup is holding at least till flush, use them together to help train the pup easier and take pressure off it. I also probably won’t duck hunt too much or hardly at all when it’s real cold and if I do it can be hit or miss if I take the dog or not if I do even get into duck hunting. But I think I’ll try goose hunting and will probably do that more than duck, and if need be I can grab the down geese with my buddies after the hunt. So keep all that in mind- but first and foremost this dog is a grouse/upland bird dog that I want to eventually be steady to release or at least till shot. And I’ll be shooting to get it to be able to trial and if not able for some reason then hunt tests and if not just as good of a gun dog and house dog as it can be.

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Re: Having trouble on next breed

Post by Trekmoor » Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:16 am

I think I'd get a GSP. I've worked brits and GSP's for about 35 years and both breeds are good hunters either in cover or out on open ground and both breeds would retrieve the geese I shot but the GSP's extra size and strength made carrying a goose a bit easier for it. Both breeds are good house dogs too but , I.M.O., the GSP is often an easier breed to train, it's not as sensitive as some of the brits.

Just my opinion ….. :D

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Re: Having trouble on next breed

Post by birddogger2 » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:20 am

If you are talking retrieving geese, then your selection of a Brittany ,might not be the best choice.

Not saying a Brittany won't "git 'er done", but asking a 30# dog to retrieve a 10# goose is, well, a lot to ask of a dog...any dog.

Brittanys also have the same hair situation as setters as far as heat is concerned.

There are a lot of AKC Brittany trials and hunt tests hereabouts...same with GSP's. If you want to go play with the dog, there should be plenty of options for you.

Also, I do not know of too many Brittanys and zero pointers that will sit still in a blind.

The typical GSP I a bit bigger and obviously has a shorter coat than either Brittanys or Setters, so would make a good choice for all around and, if you get one with a lot of white, will probably do better in the heat than a dark roan shorthair.

A breed that comes to mind as a versatile is the Wirehair, if you find a good breeder. The best of them are VERY nice dogs and they can do it all. They do have some of the heavy hari issues of sett4rs, but , I think, not as bad. The problem with the breed is that there simply are not as many of them around, so pickin's might be slim.

For all the things you are wanting to do with your dog...a shorthair seems to be a good choice.

RayG

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Re: Having trouble on next breed

Post by JONOV » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:56 am

You might talk to Krystal Creek kennels. I know they're generally speaking in your neck of the woods and they raise nice GSP's.

northwoodshunter
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Re: Having trouble on next breed

Post by northwoodshunter » Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:54 am

I really don’t know that I’ll duck hunt much or try to get the dog to do it, but like I said I’d more like to try goose hunting and do that more. The dog is a grouse and upland bird dog first though and that’s most important. I figured the gsp sounded like the most versatile and heat tolerant didn’t know how the Brittany is in the heat. I really like pointers. The only thing about a gsp or Brittany is I don’t know how natural they are and I really prefer more natural pointing at a young age and good noses. I’ve only seen one gsp hunt and never a Brittany and the gsp isn’t a very good bird dog but I understand that’s just that one dog. What of these breeds(pointer,setter,gsp,gwp,britt) are there differences generally in natural ability?

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Re: Having trouble on next breed

Post by shags » Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:38 am

It depends.

Friend of mine bought a pointer out of top trial bloodlines, and that dog never would point a bird, but was solid on blowing leaves and snowflakes. A trainer near here has a GSP out of strictly show lines, and that dog is doing very well placing in trials;I expect she will be an FC soon. I've seen Brits that I wouldn't feed, and Brits that if they had tails, I'd seriously consider dognapping :lol:

IMO your best bet is to settle on the breed with the physical characteristics that you want, then look for breeders with good reps,with litters, then take a look at (play with) the litter for a pup with personality pleasing to you, and that points.

There are tons of good GSPs and Brittanies out there, you shouldn't have trouble finding something.

What about a lab? You might check out the Upland Journal site, I think there are grouse guys who hunt labs over there.

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Re: Having trouble on next breed

Post by Trekmoor » Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:22 pm

northwoodshunter wrote: The only thing about a gsp or Brittany is I don’t know how natural they are and I really prefer more natural pointing at a young age and good noses.
I've never had a brittany or a GSP that did not point very naturally. I do no training at all on pointing but my pups still pointed wild game from as early as 3 months . All I ever did was to give them the chances to do that ....and the birds did the rest.


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Re: Having trouble on next breed

Post by JONOV » Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:32 pm

northwoodshunter wrote: The only thing about a gsp or Brittany is I don’t know how natural they are and I really prefer more natural pointing at a young age and good noses.
They're natural. GSP's mature and develop early from what I've seen. Can't say that I've seen a ton of Brittany's.

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Re: Having trouble on next breed

Post by northwoodshunter » Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:59 pm

I don’t really want a lab, because I want pointers, and I’m hoping to get through the normal common breeds like gsp, setter, pointer, Brittany. Having 2 dogs at a time maybe 3 then after having one of each or maybe even after only trying 3 of the breeds, deciding what I’ll most likely end up always having. And hearing the gsps are more natural is good, from what I’ve read from quite awhile ago is that they’re not quite as natural and I’ve been told by a couple people that it takes a very very very good gsp to compete with the setters and pointers in coverdog trials, when an average pointer/setter can compete. Right now I’m thinking a gsp would be good to have one of and see the natural retrieve and how they handle grouse up here. It would be nice to have a dog that retrieves whether or not I can goose hunt with him or not isn’t too big of a thing but obviously a plus. I’ve been hearing more and more of pointers with natural retrieve, which also would be nice but hearing gsps are pretty natural is making that much more appealing. I’m visiting a gsp breeder on Friday to see the dogs he has and the ones he’s breeding that I’d get a pup from. Still looking into other breeders too. I’m still open to other breeds as well so any breeder of any breed recommendations? Who/what lines do you guys like? What are good lines for grouse gsps? I am looking into grouse point kennels on Friday. What are good gsp lines? I only really know pointer and setter lines well. What are the lines that are typically smaller dogs? Any input on any of these(any breed welcome too) is greatly appreciated.
Thank you all very much. So far gsp seems like a consensus as of now but still open.

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Re: Having trouble on next breed

Post by Sharon » Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:49 pm

northwoodshunter wrote:Last time I posted this it seemed a pretty agreed answer to get a cover dog bred English setter, like I already have because I am hoping to trial the pup and the dog I have now. The dog I have now is coming together well and I hope to see what he’s got in them sometime this trial season. I agreed on another setter this spring/early summer, but some things I thought of changed that thought a little and now I am undecided again. Here’s what I thought/may be looking for now. I am open to any suggestions and breeders, I know of some breeders for each breed but more is always welcome and i will probably contact anyone recommended. So I have my 3y/o setter now, he’s so far a great bird dog, hopeful trial dog too. But he doesn’t do too well in the heat and seems to get very hot pretty quickly and that seems to be pretty common in setters from what a few breeders, my trainer, and the breeder I got my pup from say in their experience, so then I think maybe I should get a dog that would be a little better in the heat, then the cold tolerance isn’t a big deal as if it gets too cold I’ll my setter. So that made me think pointer and shorthair, maybe Brittany also? Then I also thought maybe I will try to get into goose for sure and some duck hunting and I know it’s harder to find setters/pointers that couldndo that. So I thought maybe shorthair or Brittany would be better for me for this next dog. But what do you guys think of a cover dog Brittany/shorthair? I’ve been told it’ll be harder for one of those breeds to compete on those events but I could always try out hunt tests too. What do you guys think about trying to get a pointer to retrieve geese? Or are there any other breed suggestions or advice on what all think?
Thanks
I've had setters and never seen them getting unusually hot.
However , based on what you've said about retrieving duck/geese in colder weather and also wanting to do cover dog trials I'd go with a GSP or GWP.

northwoodshunter
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Re: Having trouble on next breed

Post by northwoodshunter » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:36 pm

Sharon, my thing with setters getting unusually hot was from personal experience with my setter who does get hot quick and from what my trainer said he’s seen for the most part. I’m sure there’s tons and tons of them that don’t. So I wasn’t trying to say something that may be untrue if it was for you. I know it’s more generalities as all dogs and lines are different. I’m sure the heat thing with my dog has something to do with having bad or somewhat winters up here since I’ve owned him. And he is in the house so when it’s real hot he can be in the a/c so he’s really only hot when we are doing training or something related to hunting. I love my setter but I also figured maybe I should try another breed for the next dog. That’s why I mainly mentioned the pointer and previously was set on one but now may be swayed.

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Re: Having trouble on next breed

Post by Garrison » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:55 pm

Setters and Pointers are running in every state and in every weather condition. If Cover Dog trials is what you want to get in to, those are the only two viable options. I wouldn’t count on either becoming a reliable retriever for geese. If my dog lived and hunted in Northern Wisconsin winters I would get a dog with some hair. The dog runs a few hours a week, that leaves a whole lot of time just living in the cold.

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Re: Having trouble on next breed

Post by northwoodshunter » Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:48 pm

He does only run a few hours a week or however much in a week he will be able to get which very well could be quite more than that, but yes at least that, but does not live in the cold, my dogs are house dogs and companions, inside the house and warmth and often I come home to one the dogs laying on the stone in front of our fireplace. But that does make a good point. The only thing I saw about that is that, my setter in specific does not do well in the heat, it can be 75-80 and he will be getting real hot real quick. He can handle it like 75 and under but over that I’m afraid of over heating him. And even my trainer said he doesn’t do well In the heat, and the last two years and this one in particular so far was a very hot summer and so far hot fall for up here. That’s why I was thinking a dog with shorter hair for more heat tolerance. Balance out the extremes so to say. Setter is perfectly fine cold, the next dog may not last as long in cold, but then flip it for hot, that way no matter the condition outside, if I’m hunting, one of my dogs will be able to finish out the hunt when the other one has to be put away to warm/cool.

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Re: Having trouble on next breed

Post by JONOV » Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:17 am

northwoodshunter wrote:I don’t really want a lab, because I want pointers, and I’m hoping to get through the normal common breeds like gsp, setter, pointer, Brittany. Having 2 dogs at a time maybe 3 then after having one of each or maybe even after only trying 3 of the breeds, deciding what I’ll most likely end up always having. And hearing the gsps are more natural is good, from what I’ve read from quite awhile ago is that they’re not quite as natural and I’ve been told by a couple people that it takes a very very very good gsp to compete with the setters and pointers in coverdog trials, when an average pointer/setter can compete. Right now I’m thinking a gsp would be good to have one of and see the natural retrieve and how they handle grouse up here.
Decide what's important to you. Competing at a high level in coverdog trials, or a more versatile dog. First off, every dog has its day and if your running the setter in the trials, the entry fee for the GSP isn't going to be that crazy and they can still compete.

Remember, a breed's success in a competition venue doesn't mean that its a dog that will serve you better in the field. Labs dominate the retriever trial world, but I don't think that a lab is going to recover more ducks than a Chessie or a Golden Retriever or GWP.

Pointers and Setter dominate the American Field type trials (all sorts from all age to shooting dog to cover dog,) but I don't think that a hunter who runs a setter or pointer is going to shoot more grouse than a guy that has a GSP, Lab, Spaniel, GWP, Brittany, etc...

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Re: Having trouble on next breed

Post by KCKLH » Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:39 pm

Sounds like you need to get yourself a versatile for hunting and keep the setter for a trial dog and part timer. If you wont be doing many late season hunts in water get a GSP. Generally gonna be cheaper than a DD or a PP. When the setter gets tired put it up and keep rolling with the versatile. I honestly cant remember a single hunt where our GSPs ran out of bottom. Id also suggest taking the pup to some NAVDHA events and seeing how you like those. From my experience with GSPs the biggest issue youre likely to run into going down that road is whining and fidgeting while in the blind (why I think labs are bred to mature so quickly) but if you prefer grouse to geese thats probably the way to go.

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Re: Having trouble on next breed

Post by birddogger2 » Fri Sep 21, 2018 2:42 pm

I agree with those that have suggested that you may need separate dogs for your different activities.

Cover dog stakes are dominated by setters and pointers with Setters getting the nod for number of competitors Same with AF horseback stakes but with pointers making up the larger percentage of entries. If you want to play those games with some other breed, you are going to have an uphill trek.

I am not saying that Brittanys or shorthairs or wirehairs or Vizslak cannot compete. Not for one second. I have seen awesome representatives of each of those breeds that could hold their own in any company.

But it is what it is.

If, on the other hand, you have the desire to compete in AKC trials or tests, the above does not hold true.

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Re: Having trouble on next breed

Post by northwoodshunter » Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:47 pm

I’m leaning towards a gsp right now. I went to grouse point kennels and saw the dam that I could get a pup from and heard about the sire. Pet the dam ha shed outside for a bit. And talked to the breeder/trainer of that kennel and I’m pretty interested. If I send a deposit soon I’ll be #2 in line and he’s having 2 litters when I want a pup, and he is getting $1500 for a pup. I decided I’d like to try duck and good and I’ll probably try to run the pup in cover dog and if he’s not competing very well the breeder said he could get him in navdha and he could even campaign him for me if I wanted. Anyone think this is a good or bad idea? Or anyone deal with his kennel?

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Re: Having trouble on next breed

Post by cjhills » Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:08 am

Probably a alright idea. Who is the sire of Carey's litter?.....Cj

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Re: Having trouble on next breed

Post by Dakotazeb » Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:54 am

Doesn't $1,500 for a pup seem a little steep?

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Re: Having trouble on next breed

Post by Garrison » Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:42 am

I don’t know anything about the breeder or dogs that you are looking at. However I do own a GSP out of some NAVHDA breeding that was given to me. He has multiple VC up close in his breeding. I occasionally go and train with some guys in the local NAVHDA chapter who have been very successful at placing NAVHDA titles on their dogs. My family and I have also had many setters and my last was a cover dog bred setter from very succesful lines. I have another trial bred setter (shooting dog/grouse lines) on the way. My GSP looks and acts like a sports car compared to many of the NAVHDA dogs he has been braced with. He runs a bit further and faster than most of the NAVHDA dogs I have trained with, probably because I allowed him to in his training as well as his genetics and breed. He is a really nice dog in the house, in the field and he is great with my daughter. He has a good nose, a good natural retrieve and remembers his training. I hunt him on chukar, quail and he did really well the few times I took him to the Midwest pheasant hunting. What he is not is a trial dog, in any venue, especially the woods. He will not out run a well bred setter in any temp or in any cover except maybe through thick cattails and in water. He is not a true waterfowl dog either. He is a big strong 62lbs that swims well but I wouldn’t expect him to sit still and retrieve geese in goose hunting weather, he would freeze. Your desires are on opposite ends of the map, probably have to decide exactly what you want to do with your dogs or own more. For what I do, foot hunt in the West for quail and chukar, I suppose I will probably always have a setter and a GSP in the mix. A wider ranging dog and a closer/mid ranging dog with a good natural retrieve works well for my needs.
Last edited by Garrison on Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.

northwoodshunter
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Re: Having trouble on next breed

Post by northwoodshunter » Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:41 pm

I don’t know who for sure the sire is. He said right now he’s planning on a buddy of his from Minnesota and he knows the dog and it has the titling he requires and is around 60-65lbs. I thought $1500 was a little much too so I’m not dead set on that kennel, I know that good dogs cost a lot and are to an extent “you get what you pay for” but once you get over $1000 and it’s not an import, personally I think it’s getting a little high. I can find the same or near or better quality for 700-1000. So if anyone has more breeders to recommend that would be great. I am trying to contact the one that was already recommended.

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Re: Having trouble on next breed

Post by northwoodshunter » Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:31 pm

I decided on a gsp. Sent my deposit in. As of now I’m 3rd on the list for males, unless someone comes there and drops off a deposit but no one has inquired about males since me and mines in the mail right now so I’m sitting pretty good. I didn’t go with grouse point kennels as I found a different kennel that the breeding I thought would give me the best chance at an all around dog that would have the best chance of competing in coverdog. Liking the sire and dam very much sounds like it’ll be a very good breeding. Should get the pup in early March-ish.

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Re: Having trouble on next breed

Post by RyanDoolittle » Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:59 am

Dakotazeb wrote:Doesn't $1,500 for a pup seem a little steep?
You can buy a very nice started Pointer or setter for that money.

The type of people buying continentals is whats driving the price up. My first shorthair was $800 ($600 usd) now a guy would be hard pressed to find a well bred pup for less than $1000 usd then another $200-300 to ship it. Ive seen frozen semen breeding to unproven females upwards of $2000 for an 8 week old pup. Makes me shake my head.

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Re: Having trouble on next breed

Post by northwoodshunter » Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:33 pm

I’m gonna be paying $1300. And I agree with that all. I think the price usually shouldn’t get more than $1000. But I talked to multiple reputable breeders and this was the second cheapest and the cheapest was only $100 less but I absolutely loved the pictures of the sure and what they said about him. I didn’t really want a started dog as I like the puppy phase because o think it lets me bond with them more and trust is built faster. But I also wanted a gsp or something that’s more adept to retrieve naturally for sure upland and more odds of it retrieving geese and ducks. But I had looked at some started and puppies of setters and pointers and talked to breeders before I decided on a gsp/versatile

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Re: Having trouble on next breed

Post by Pedro » Thu Sep 27, 2018 10:11 am

Northwoods congratulations on your forthcoming pup, I hope you guys have a lot of fun over the years. The price someone pays for a pup is the buyers business, but Ryan makes a good point regarding px of Continentals vs pointers/setters.

There was an article in PDJ and reprinted on the Strideaway website regarding relevency of the All Age dog in todays world. The article made what I believe is a valid observation, that with the demise of the bobwhite east of the Mississippi, we've transitioned from predominately quail hunters to pheasant hunters, and the Continentals, in general, have an application and range more suited chasing roosters. And I said "general", I realize there are horseback gsp's and brittany's out there that will run with the pointers and setters.

Maybe one of reasons Continentals cost more is there is more demand for them. I run brittany's, breed an occasional litter, and tend to trade dogs with friends who breed same type of dog I'm looking for. That being said I'm amazed as to advertised price on the internet gundog sales sites, of a backyard bred brittany with "maybe" a FC or two 3 generations back.

For a friend of mine I've bought two pointers pups over last 3 years, both out of multiple champion Horseback Shooting dog sires x hunting dams sired by multiple champions. Both are straight up brag dogs, they broke out early, hunt for the gun, hunt dead and retrieve, overall just natural bird dogs with not a lick of runoff in them, $800 ea.

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Re: Having trouble on next breed

Post by northwoodshunter » Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:50 am

Pedro- thanks, and i agree. I think a lot of the uprising in the versatile dogs Being bought is to do with what you said about adaptions to what you hunt. Obviously every breed can do it, but some people like to just go with what has been tried and true to that in a general sense for the best odds it’ll work out well. That’s basically what I did. I have nothing against any other breed and had thought about every other one. But ultimately I wanted a dog I can grouse, woodcock, pheasant, duck, goose, and maybe dove hunt with. Right now I don’t dove goose or duck hunt but I want to and a big part in making that happen would be a dog to do it with. And I know gsps can do the upland bird well and are natural retrieving and water working for the most part. That’s why I chose them. I ended up finding a breeder that I ended up liking and am excited to get a pup from this sire and dam. Now I’m just hoping she throws at least 3 males as I’m 3rd for males!

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Re: Having trouble on next breed

Post by Featherfinder » Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:30 pm

I was thinking the same thing as JONOV and Garrison. Your preferences were a bit.....all-over-the-place.
I also wanted to say that if you were going to look at the GSP breeder you would likely end up with one. I'm not in any way insinuating you acquired the wrong breed. I'm just sharing that I tell all my bird dog shoppers to do their homework up front, decide on the best suited breed first, secondly seek out the best available breeder, then lastly go look at dogs.
I actually had a chap looking for a GSP show up with a Lab pup! He happened to come across a Lab litter. The rest is history.
I wish you all the best going forward with your future bird dog.
Remember, a good GSP is still better than a crappy pointer or setter. :wink:

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Re: Having trouble on next breed

Post by shags » Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:13 pm

Remember, a good GSP is still better than a crappy pointer or setter. :wink:

Heresy! Heresy I say! :P

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Re: Having trouble on next breed

Post by polmaise » Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:41 pm

northwoodshunter wrote:Also- remember I want to be able to hunt these dogs together when they are trained and potentially when the pup is holding at least till flush, use them together to help train the pup easier and take pressure off it. I also probably won’t duck hunt too much or hardly at all when it’s real cold and if I do it can be hit or miss if I take the dog or not if I do even get into duck hunting. But I think I’ll try goose hunting and will probably do that more than duck, and if need be I can grab the down geese with my buddies after the hunt. So keep all that in mind- but first and foremost this dog is a grouse/upland bird dog that I want to eventually be steady to release or at least till shot. And I’ll be shooting to get it to be able to trial and if not able for some reason then hunt tests and if not just as good of a gun dog and house dog as it can be.
Is this a Bucket list or a wish list ..Or Just a fluffy dream you have before having done it ?

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Re: Having trouble on next breed

Post by RyanDoolittle » Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:50 pm

polmaise wrote:
northwoodshunter wrote:Also- remember I want to be able to hunt these dogs together when they are trained and potentially when the pup is holding at least till flush, use them together to help train the pup easier and take pressure off it. I also probably won’t duck hunt too much or hardly at all when it’s real cold and if I do it can be hit or miss if I take the dog or not if I do even get into duck hunting. But I think I’ll try goose hunting and will probably do that more than duck, and if need be I can grab the down geese with my buddies after the hunt. So keep all that in mind- but first and foremost this dog is a grouse/upland bird dog that I want to eventually be steady to release or at least till shot. And I’ll be shooting to get it to be able to trial and if not able for some reason then hunt tests and if not just as good of a gun dog and house dog as it can be.
Is this a Bucket list or a wish list ..Or Just a fluffy dream you have before having done it ?

You obviously have no clue.

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Re: Having trouble on next breed

Post by Featherfinder » Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:57 pm

That's interesting northwoodshunter. One thing I very rarely do is hunt more than 1 dog at a time. Of course we trialed in braces but I don't enjoy hunting 2 dogs at once whether mine or a huntin' buddies. More good friendships have been lost this way. That aside, I have yet to have someone convince me of the advantages other than personal preference. As to personal preference, a good number of reliable dogs have developed issues from being hunted together with less-than-reliable dogs.
Admittedly, I am a real stickler for dog work. As such, I have a very high expectation. This lofty expectation can easily erode in a 2-dogs-hunting scenario.
Further to this, when we hunt vast expansive or grueling tracts of land, if you don't manage the dogs intelligently, you can "run out of dog" very quickly. I call some of those prairie stubble fields "dog killers". If you intend to hunt for more than a week, you had better have a plan that addresses resting the dogs along with utilizing the right dogs in strategic applications.
Anyway, that's how we do it. We were just on the prairies with a team of 4 dogs. They were needing a break after 2 weeks - and that's hunting one dog at a time.
I guess the underlying concern for me is that dogs learn from other dogs - good or bad. I can better manage the situations one dog at a time. Perhaps I'm just getting old.

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Re: Having trouble on next breed

Post by RyanDoolittle » Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:20 pm

There are lots of dogs who are some of the best Cover Dogs, horseback or walking gun dogs, top NAVHDA dogs, NSTRA dogs that spend their days in competition or hunting and spend their nights laying on the couch or at the foot of the bed.

I had one of the top young dogs in the country in 2014, he was a house dog.

My current prospect is a 2.5 year old setter, I put a placement on him last fall as a derby in a wild bird trial and have been developing him all summer. Right now he runs a big shooting dog or All Age race out here on the prairie, the boy isnt afraid to reach out to a mile making casts and guess what..... house dog.

Now if I was looking for a house dog would I go looking for an All-Age American Field Pointer? Probably not, but gun dogs Make great house dogs.

I find it quiet comical Polmaise that you need to resort to name calling to try and make your point. Its also quiet comical someone from Scotland who deals with labs would know through first hand experience what an American trial/test pointing dog would be like in the house.

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Re: Having trouble on next breed

Post by northwoodshunter » Fri Oct 05, 2018 10:19 pm

Featherfinder-I do see your point on that, and I am not here to contradict how any ones trains or hunts. But the breeder I originally went to look at I didn’t go with, I found a different breeder I’ve talked to in the past and liked the sire very much. So I sent a deposit after talking to the breeders and reading reviews and seeing pedigrees. I am happy with my choice. It is a GSP. But I would like to hunt two dogs, but not until they are both well along, I do get what you’re saying about how even another good dog could mess up another good dog. But I’m thinking I’ll try doing more rotating of the dogs in the grouse woods and for pheasant and sharp tail I’ll run the two together. Training will be separate unless I’m working on something needing two dogs. Both dogs will visit trainers at some point. I appreciate your input and I see a lot of good info in that especially you being expierenced. So maybe I’ll not run the together as much as I originally thought so they develop better.

Polmaise- how is that a bucket list or fluffy dream?? Having hopes of the dog being able to trial but if it’s unable to do that I can to hunt tests(which I have to do anyway, if I want full registration rights, doing at least NA tests) and if I and the trainer he will see are unable to make him competitive in trials or able to complete hunt testing, then it will be my hunting dog. Yes these dogs are in the house. Nothing wrong with that. My setter is in the house, he’s no all age dog and doesn’t range that much but he can go if I let him. But he’s fine in the house. I don’t see how this would be a fluffy dream. If anything I’m being more realistic. I’m not saying I’m going to do everything with the dog. I’m saying I’ll do whatever it is able to do. And no matter what it can do as in testing or trials. It will be a hunting dog first and house dog.

Ryandoolittle- I agree with you. Nothing to that seemed unreasonable to me and I believe with training anybdog can be a house dog if you work on that too. Like you said. Your dog goes and it’s a house dog and I guarantee that dog goes wayyyyy father than any dog I’ll ever have will go.

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Re: Having trouble on next breed

Post by Featherfinder » Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:05 am

northwoodshunter, I sometimes get tunnel vision because of my way of doing things for so many years (aka experience). For example, hunting 2 dogs when you only have a certain window of time can be VERY gratifying.
A big art of my past was trialing. Some folk aren't as.....overly critical (thank goodness) of what transpires when hunting 2 dogs, and whose to say they are going to mess up all the time?
Sometimes, just getting out with your 2 or 3 or X dogs, having some quiet time or simply being in the woods/fields IS good for the soul. Thank you for reminding me of a bigger picture and allowing me to take a break from "judging dogs" most of time. I'll try.

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Re: Having trouble on next breed

Post by shags » Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:39 am

Ryandoolittle - I agree with you. Nothing to that seemed unreasonable to me and I believe with training anybdog can be a house dog if you work on that too. Like you said. Your dog goes and it’s a house dog and I guarantee that dog goes wayyyyy father than any dog I’ll ever have will go

Sometimes the bousedog thing doesn't even take much training. My friend bought a kennel pointer that turned out to be a big dud as a bird dog, so she was rehomed as a great companion and couch potato. Another friend felt really bad about the first guy losing out on the couch potato, so he gave him a big shooting dog/all age male pointer from his kennel. Friend #1 brought the dog home, put him in the house and went about unloading the truck and all that. Pretty soon he missed the dog and freaked out thinking he must have run out while the door was ajar. But he found the dog sound asleep snoozing all sprawled out on the bed.

We acquired an old setter female that had never been in a house her whole life, living in a Scotts Kennel for 12 years. It took her about 5 minutes to claim a comfy chair under a window as her own, and it was her place until the day she died.

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Re: Having trouble on next breed

Post by cjhills » Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:52 am

I can't see why anyone would be so amazed to see a big running dog sleeping on the bed. They all have to sleep some time. The two have no connection. On the other hand I have dogs that spend every night in a crate who are very uncomfortable and will prowl all night if they don't have their crate...…..Cj

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Re: Having trouble on next breed

Post by shags » Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:47 am

Maybe you missed the point about dogs having to be trained to be housedogs?

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Re: Having trouble on next breed

Post by birddogger2 » Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:01 am

cjhills wrote:I can't see why anyone would be so amazed to see a big running dog sleeping on the bed. They all have to sleep some time. The two have no connection. On the other hand I have dogs that spend every night in a crate who are very uncomfortable and will prowl all night if they don't have their crate...…..Cj

I agree completely.

Some of the most intense, driven and focused hunters(bird dogs) I have known have been the nicest dogs around the house. I think the dogs can figure it out fairly quickly.

A field trial dog spends the major portion of its life in a smallish kennel, bumping along over the road and then gets put out on a chain just long enough to poop and pee, then back in the box. they get taken out to run, then put back. They get taken out to feed and then put back. It is a Spartan, demanding life for a dog and affords only minimal opportunity for the dog to interact with people.

I have seen washouts and retired trial dogs in the house and , for the most part, they seem to understand that somehow, they grabbed the brass ring and hit the jackpot.

I have a fair amount of experience with pointers and most of them have a very definite "off "switch. I believe other pointing breeds tend to have the same, especially as they get older.

RayG

RayG

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Re: Having trouble on next breed

Post by cjhills » Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:27 am

shags wrote:Maybe you missed the point about dogs having to be trained to be housedogs?
Maybe. Not real sure what you mean.
Some dogs do have to be trained and some dogs don't. I have a female who has been a kennel dog all her life, when she goes to the stud owners house she lives in their house and sleeps on the couch for a couple weeks.
My point is a dog that runs big in the field does not have to be a wild eyed idiot 24/7 and some dogs who sleep in a crate at night miss their crate if they don't have it. Simple..........Cj

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Re: Having trouble on next breed

Post by shags » Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:08 am

Got it, that was my point too, that big going dogs can be great housedogs even without training. And some of them love their crates. I have a photo somewhere of my all age type #50 setter in the crate that belonged ro my daughter's Jack Russell. He loved crates and stuffed himself into that one :D

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Re: Having trouble on next breed

Post by oldbeek » Sun Oct 14, 2018 7:41 pm

Northwoodshunter, I had GSPs for 20 years then switched to Brittanys. I am training my sons small GSP right now. He is only 52 lbs. Solid Muscle. A real smart dog but,, you will learn that things you did with your setter will be different with a GSP. You will always wear heavy gloves when training. They will yank you on your butt when you don't expect it. They will break open the snaps on your check cord. Check cord needs to be 5/8 inch solid weave. They are just hard muscled dogs. A setter( I am used to smaller setters) or a Brittany is just so much lighter and easier to handle. Now my grandson has the 75 lb size GSPs. I don't even try to handle them. My current Brittany runs like an all age dog and will do everything I need in a pointing dog. All our dogs hunt together and are house dogs. But my grandson needs a new arm on his living room couch. Just saying,, have fun with that new dog.

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Re: Having trouble on next breed

Post by northwoodshunter » Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:56 pm

Thanks for the warning, didn’t even really think about the handling being more difficult but I’ll be fine with it I think. But my setter is about 37 lbs so it’ll be a different way for sure. I plan on making both of them indoor and outdoor dogs, putting part inside and outside kennel runs on and in our garage and when it’s too hot or cold I’ll take them inside and when home they will be inside. But if the weather permits they will be outside until I’m home. Then when I leave for college I’ll take them with and stay in an apartment and im hoping to be in North Dakota or somewhere in Minnesota with good bird numbers so they will get their excersice on birds wild and planted. He will also being going back to the breeder that also does training to start him some more and get rid of bad habits that I didn’t notice. I’ll have him started on birds and probably gun fire and he’ll take it from there and hopefully be able to introduce water work and natural retrieving and field searching with his nose. Then he will go back at about 9-15 months age for another month for water work and upland work so he can be waterfowl hunted and upland.

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Re: Having trouble on next breed

Post by isonychia » Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:58 am

Trekmoor wrote:I think I'd get a GSP. I've worked brits and GSP's for about 35 years and both breeds are good hunters either in cover or out on open ground and both breeds would retrieve the geese I shot but the GSP's extra size and strength made carrying a goose a bit easier for it. Both breeds are good house dogs too but , I.M.O., the GSP is often an easier breed to train, it's not as sensitive as some of the brits.

Just my opinion ….. :D

Bill T.
All of the GSPs I have known seemed way, way more sensitive than the Britts I have owned. I have been around those soft britts, whatever makes them that way just doesn't seem to line up for me. I bought the softer of the males from my last pick and he has turned out to be slightly softer than my older guy but I think the bottom line here is that Brittanies are stubborn dogs. Both of mine were NASTRA line dogs. The softer brittanies I have met were from AA pedigrees. Go figure on that one.

The problem waterfowl hunting a dog that you are looking for that is heat tolerant is that heat tolerant dogs are less cold tolerant. The experience of hunting waterfowl with a primary upland/pointer is the weak point. Sure, they will retrieve. The problem is you will get to listen to them squeak and shiver all day and trying to keep them nice and still. Running dogs run. Maybe look at having 3 dogs. A setter, a brittany/gsp, a griffon. That sounds like a nice household of dogs to me.

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Re: Having trouble on next breed

Post by northwoodshunter » Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:48 pm

I may eventually do that, and thanks for the input but as of right now I can only have these 2 for hunting dogs as I don’t have room right now, and I’m going to college and will be renting an apartment hopefully in good bird number of an area, so I can still work them and getting in touch with local chapters and communities of bird dog hunters so there’s even more working of them. I do think like you said, that I’d be best suited as a 3 dog house but as of now most apartments allow 2. And I won’t have time to train another dog on top of these two with college and such. But, when I’m in an apartment accepting 3 dogs and/or would have more time I’d most likely add another dog like you said, after this gsp would be 2 years old at least, if not 3/4. I would probably add a lab out of hunting lines or a griffon or something of the sort, That would hunt less upland, still some but not as much as the other 2. While being the only one for waterfowl unless the gsp goes here and there in warm weather. As of now I’m just getting into duck/goose hunting so a good idea was to not fully invest in just a waterfowl dog until I know I will do it enough to have a waterfowl dog. But for now I will have to only hunt when it’s warm enough for my gsp to retrieve the birds. But a 3 dog household would’ve been ideal as you said.

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Re: Having trouble on next breed

Post by isonychia » Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:45 pm

Man I felt lucky to buy my first shotgun when I was a sophmore in college. My first bird dog was my graduation present. I think you should just go hunt the dog you have and wait until after school. You may want to do some line of work that has you in the field and traveling.

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Re: Having trouble on next breed

Post by oldbeek » Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:50 pm

Same thought. I didn't have a dog while serving in the military even though I was in central Kansas hill country. Great hunting country back in those days.

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Re: Having trouble on next breed

Post by northwoodshunter » Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:32 am

What I’m eventually hoping to do is: right now I’m a freshman and will transfer next year probably somewhere in North Dakota like ndsu or west Minnesota, and I hope to find a guiding outfitter that either wants help guiding and can show me the ropes and I’ll have my dogs, the setter and shorthair, and if not that then even just helping them with anything I can do for them whether it’s guiding or nothing close to that, as a part time job and talk to different trainers and guides and that type of stuff. I’m gonna set up my schedule where I’ll be done early enough to take them out hunting and hopefully get Friday’s off so it’s a three day weekend.

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Re: Having trouble on next breed

Post by averageguy » Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:54 am

A guy could do a lot of upland and waterfowl hunting in ND. My breed is GWP but I never promote them as ideal for heat tolerance as they are not. They are however ideal for ND or MN upland and waterfowl, could be argued to be the best if you want your birds pointed.

Get the right GSP and you will have an excellent dual purpose dog. I have friends who do a great deal of Upland and Waterfowl hunting with their GSPs. They use the Sharp Shooter line. Those dogs have a good dual coat with sufficient undercoat and prey drive to work waterfowl under brutal conditions. Reality is all dogs need a warm dry, out of the wind place between retrieves, and a good neoprene vest to perform under those conditions. A GSP from a line with good undercoats and emphasis on waterwork will thrive on your dream. No reason not to look into the DKs before you land. There are some excellent ones around.

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Re: Having trouble on next breed

Post by Sharon » Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:10 pm

northwoodshunter wrote:What I’m eventually hoping to do is: right now I’m a freshman and will transfer next year probably somewhere in North Dakota like ndsu or west Minnesota, and I hope to find a guiding outfitter that either wants help guiding and can show me the ropes and I’ll have my dogs, the setter and shorthair, and if not that then even just helping them with anything I can do for them whether it’s guiding or nothing close to that, as a part time job and talk to different trainers and guides and that type of stuff. I’m gonna set up my schedule where I’ll be done early enough to take them out hunting and hopefully get Friday’s off so it’s a three day weekend.
That is a great plan! :) I hope that works out for you.

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