Just got a call from trainer: Advice needed

PoorMansWrangler
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Just got a call from trainer: Advice needed

Post by PoorMansWrangler » Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:49 pm

Hey everyone,
I was hoping to get some advice. A week and a half ago I dropped my year old pointer pup off at the trainer. He had not been introduced to birds, but was obedience trained and woah broke. I got the call today that she is recommending I take him home Monday. The trainer said it is typical for a dog to whine the first one or two days they are away, but they will settle in eventually, and he will whine in his kennel all night long to the point where she will put a bark collar on him and has to hose him down and cut the collar off him,, and has just now started to go in the dog box. She has introduced him to birds three different days, and he has showed no interest at all. All he wants to do is head for the road, or run around. She said he has no confidence, and is running with his tail between his legs, and he has lost all obedience training. She first thought he was hungry, and has bumped him up from 3 cups of food a day to 6 cups a day, with no weight/muscle gain. Essentially she said he has no confidence, no interest in birds. Leading up to his training, the dog was kenneled throughout the day, and was walked 2-6 miles in the evening. On walks, he would chase birds, rabbits and naturally point all the walk, so I had high hopes. I feel awful, I feel like I have failed my dog. The trainer thinks it is a bad case of separation anxiety, and me walking the dog too much. I have no clue what to do, and I feel awful. The trainer said she would work him Friday-Sunday, and wants me to come out Monday and see for myself. Any advice? And feel free to ask questions, as I am sure their was gaps I left out not thinking about. Thank you very much

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Re: Just got a call from trainer: Advice needed

Post by polmaise » Thu Sep 27, 2018 4:17 pm

Dont know much about Your trainer or what is expected .
I do know that I Do Train other folks dogs . In a Week It would take me that to just have a new dog settled in a new place and with me . No training .
Maybe I am doing it all wrong ..these years .

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Re: Just got a call from trainer: Advice needed

Post by Sharon » Thu Sep 27, 2018 4:25 pm

Never heard of that PMW. Separation anxiety though can greatly affect a dog. NOthing to do with you making a bad decision.
I think the proof will be if the dog comes home and starts acting normal again.
Hopefully trainers with experience with many dogs will respond.

edit: I thought that someone who has had lots of dogs for training , may see the problem as common or not common.Obviously, not all trainers are good trainers.

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Just got a call from trainer: Advice needed

Post by Shellottome » Thu Sep 27, 2018 4:31 pm

Some dogs absolutely will not work with other people for a period of time. Your pointer may have to stay longer to get adjusted. I’ve seen this happen and it took two months for the dog to finally respond. I guess it comes down to how much time and money you’re willing to spend.


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Re: Just got a call from trainer: Advice needed

Post by polmaise » Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:34 pm

Sharon wrote: Hopefully trainers with experience with many dogs will respond.
Hopefully Trainers with experience of the similar dog and handler will respond , rather than those that have had many . ?

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Re: Just got a call from trainer: Advice needed

Post by gonehuntin' » Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:44 pm

When I was brought a new dog, I wanted that dog for a 30 day evaluation. For ten days I did nothing with the dog but make friends and keep it clean and fed. Then I started training the dog. Almost without exception, if the trainer is a good trainer, the dog forms a stronger bond with the trainer than it had with the owner. In all the years I trained, in the hundreds of dog's I saw come through the kennel doors, I only say one that was a totally, mentally unbalanced dog. It would bark like yours, when I approached the kennel to pet it, it would cliimb the walls and scream. This went on for 10 days and finally I admitted defeat and sent the dog home. That is very, very, very, rare.

I don't like the fact that the trainer put a bark collar on a new dog. I don't like the fact that the trainer had to CUT the bark collar off? Rediculous. I don't like the fact that she hoses him down. I don't like the fact that she is apparently turning him lose to run, though I can't believe a trainer would do that.

In my mind the trainer should not even be working with the dog yet. I really hate to criticize another trainer because in general, there is the owners story and the trainers story and we only have your side of it. However if everything you're saying is factual, I would have some serious doubts about this trainer.

The very LAST thing I would do if I had a dog that was spooky, nervous and terrified was to hose the dog down and throw a bark collar on the dog.

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Re: Just got a call from trainer: Advice needed

Post by PoorMansWrangler » Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:50 pm

I am wondering if finding a personal one on one trainer to work with a couple of times a week would be better. He is a very stubborn dog, but this sounds totally unlike him. She said he cries out with any little bit of reinforcement, no confidence, tail down all the time. When I dropped him off, I had high hopes because in my mind he was everything a shorthair was suppose to be based of reading and watching other gsp’s work. She said he doesn’t even act like a gsp. Granted this is my first dog, but I highly doubt he would just hit the off switch and never turn it back on. My dog would loose his mind if he came across any critter when we were walking, or in the back yard. I have never heard him yelp, cry out, or just pout around at all. When I dropped him off, she explained the first week would be obedience, second week bird work, this week gun into, and fourth week bird and gun. The trainer also said she is even afraid to put a e collar on him because he is so touchy and scared. I worked recall with him using a e collar when he was 8 months old, and he never acted up at all, and responded well, and I haven’t been using it at all he just listens. Would it be a bad idea to just bring him home Monday, even if he just will work when I am there? Or should I see what the trainer has to say. Sorry if this seems like a jumbled mess of words, just racking my brain here.

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Re: Just got a call from trainer: Advice needed

Post by shags » Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:05 pm

If I were you, I'd be on that trainer's doorstep in the morning. Granted we have only your understanding of what the trainer has said and done, but lots of it sounds weird to me. Cutting off a collar, doubling feed, hosing dog, why?

You know whether your dog is 'sensitive' or not. Does the described behavior sound like his typical reaction to stressful situations? Sorry if this sounds rude, but that behavior sounds like a seriously unbalanced dog, or a scared or very confused one.

I'm in Ohio and know a couple of seriously good and honest trainers, if you pm me I will give you names.

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Re: Just got a call from trainer: Advice needed

Post by PoorMansWrangler » Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:13 pm

Not at all like him. I was borderline mean to him when we were breaking him from pulling on the lead, and he has gotten spanked or popped from me for acting up in the house. My thought is maybe because he is outside of his “home” kenneled outside, with a brand new trainer trying to boss him around, on top of missing me he isn’t having it. He doesn’t listen nearly as well with my girlfriend compared to me, and he has had a year to warm up to her. I am not happy about the cutting off the bark collar and hosing him down either, or the feeding. I fed him 3 cups a day and we were putting upwards of 5 miles in some days, but at a minimum of 3 miles. Would it be rude to go pick him up tomorrow? I was told it would be $450 for a month, should I be expected to pay for a month even if he was only there for two weeks? Sorry if I am bombarding you guys with questions, just trying to figure out what to expect. When I didn’t met the trainer, she claimed she has only sent home two dogs in her entire time training, so I had high hopes. She said she kept upping the feed because she thought he was crying so much because he was hungry
Last edited by PoorMansWrangler on Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Just got a call from trainer: Advice needed

Post by cjhills » Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:33 pm

Is this pup a Pointer or a Shorthair...….Cj

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Re: Just got a call from trainer: Advice needed

Post by PoorMansWrangler » Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:36 pm

German shorthair pointer, 1 year old
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Re: Just got a call from trainer: Advice needed

Post by shags » Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:53 pm

I would call and tell the trainer you'd prefer to pick up the dog tomorrow (or whatever works for you). IME I've always expected, and received, refunds for partial months.

If the trainer trials and will be away this weekend you can ask about having the kennel help releasing the dog to you, or about her loading the dog into the rig and you picking the dog up at the trial.

Your dog sounds pretty normal...little bit spoiled like all good dogs should be :lol: Mine sure are!

I hope it all works out for you

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Re: Just got a call from trainer: Advice needed

Post by northwoodshunter » Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:08 pm

Just to be clear first- I am by no means not even close to a pro trainer or even a trainer. I have started my dog with birds and gun myself and everything buthad him broke by a trainer. Now here’s my experience- and from the sounds of how your dog was before you sent him this shouldn’t be happening. But with me, my dog went at 3 years old and had already been shot over probably around 100 times on pheasant, so my dog was older and more along so it may change and may not be relevant. But that is what I was worried my dog would do. I went to a very good and reputable trainer, and my dog is and was even more so-VERY attached to me, he had to be forced to hunt for a buddy of mine on a drive for pheasant cuz I had to post that one and he didn’t want to do that. I spoiled him a little too much and babies him too much probably and he was about as attached as it gets for a good bird dog or more so than I’ve ever seen and even my trainer noticed and I asked him how he thinks he will take it and he said the first week he may not listen(no bird work just playing and such letting him run etc) and be whiny mopey and sad but he would come around after a week or maybe take a little more. And beyond my belief, after about 4-5 days, he was fine and having a blast on birds everyday and listening and taking to everything well, then he had a hiccup where he got stubborn but the trainer stuck to it and the dog stopped and decided he’d do what the trainer wants and by the end of exactly one month he went from steady to flush for the most part to broke on multiple flushes on pigeons. So I think if my dog tha I babies and was that attached to me for 3 years could power through within a week, that your dog could’ve too and by what the other people who are more able to speak and more experienced are saying they would’ve done things differently as the trainer of the pup. My dog is a house dog also so that was a big adjustment to being kennel outside in a run too.

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Re: Just got a call from trainer: Advice needed

Post by mask » Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:47 pm

polmaise makes a good point. There are trainers and people who claim to be trainers. A good trainer knows what to do when the wheels come off. A person who just claims to be a trainer does not. You might want to find an actual trainer. I train my own and take in a few for others. if someone told me they put a no bark collar on my dog or hosed him down I would not be amused that is not training that is stupidity. Find another trainer.

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Re: Just got a call from trainer: Advice needed

Post by Trekmoor » Fri Sep 28, 2018 4:14 am

Can't claim to have taken in a lot of other peoples dogs for training, maybe only 40-50 over a 40 years period. During that time none of those dogs have been e-collared or hosed down . Some of them did make some noise during the first few days and nights but I used to bring strange dogs into my house and into my family and doing that soon made those dogs feel secure . I also used to spend time with them in the kennel and run to get them used to being in them . If your dog had been a house dog /pet, then it is likely to feel insecure if just put into a kennel and left to "get used to it." Using an e-collar or hosing down an already frightened dog is unlikely to have any good results !

If I were you I would at once remove my dog from that trainer.

I think you would be far better to take the dog for one to one training sessions with a good trainer . The dog would feel secure enough to learn more and you would gain in training experience at the same time.

Prior to taking the dog to that trainer I think he sounds like a pretty good and pretty normal GSP and , like you, I would have had high hopes for him.

Bill T.

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Re: Just got a call from trainer: Advice needed

Post by PoorMansWrangler » Fri Sep 28, 2018 5:01 am

After sleeping on it, I am going to bring him home Monday, sooner if I can. The trainer wants me to wait until Monday, mainly because she is going to hold a bird in front of him and see if he will chase it at least. Up to this point she had not done this, and had been planting them in a field. Definitely not the way I would have introduced him to birds. I know he has a great prey drive, so I am hoping to go out Monday and work with him, and hopefully me being their will get him fired up and back to his normal self. I know he wants to hunt, the second we bust a rabbit, squirrel or bird while hiking he is dragging my 215 pound self through the brush trying to get it. Our backyard is now critter free ever since we got him. I am just hoping I can turn him back around, and not too much damage has been done. Going to call some personal trainers today, and see if I can find someone to work one on one with me and him, I think that will work the best.

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Re: Just got a call from trainer: Advice needed

Post by CDN_Cocker » Fri Sep 28, 2018 6:27 am

Sounds like you need to find a new trainer. Way too many red flags there... hosing the dog down to cut a bark collar off? I wouldn't wait till Monday to get the dog.

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Re: Just got a call from trainer: Advice needed

Post by JONOV » Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:06 am

Among other things...$450 is too cheap. Meaning, I'd be questioning their credentials at that price.

I'll PM you a good guy to reach out to in OH.

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Re: Just got a call from trainer: Advice needed

Post by Settertude » Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:14 am

I agree with the practice of teaching dog and owner together for a number of reasons.
I also agree that your trainer guy made big mistakes...sounds bad all around.

I hope you have the opportunity to make you and your pup the best you can be.

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Re: Just got a call from trainer: Advice needed

Post by JONOV » Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:21 am

PoorMansWrangler wrote:After sleeping on it, I am going to bring him home Monday, sooner if I can. The trainer wants me to wait until Monday, mainly because she is going to hold a bird in front of him and see if he will chase it at least. Up to this point she had not done this, and had been planting them in a field. Definitely not the way I would have introduced him to birds. I know he has a great prey drive, so I am hoping to go out Monday and work with him, and hopefully me being their will get him fired up and back to his normal self. I know he wants to hunt, the second we bust a rabbit, squirrel or bird while hiking he is dragging my 215 pound self through the brush trying to get it. Our backyard is now critter free ever since we got him. I am just hoping I can turn him back around, and not too much damage has been done. Going to call some personal trainers today, and see if I can find someone to work one on one with me and him, I think that will work the best.
Get him out of there. Tonight if you can. Enough red flags have popped up that I think your p!$$!ng money away.

"Me walking the dog too much?" Totally obnoxious and insane. How are most of us supposed to exercise our dogs? It sounds to me like she lets a wound up GSP out of the kennel and he's a wound up puppy and can't concentrate. Big Surprise.

Anyone can call themselves a trainer. Me, you...I know more than one that has gotten into it after training one or two personal dogs to a relatively high level. I'm not saying they didn't do a good job with their dogs or they were no good, but all it takes is saying so. And you have to remember, you don't want to pay a trainer because they trained Honcho or Lester's Sunny Hill Jo or some other accomplished dog, you want to pay them for the lessons they learned from mistakes made on great raw material. And you don't want your dog to be a mistake the trainer learned from if you can avoid it. You can learn from your own "bleep" mistakes.

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Re: Just got a call from trainer: Advice needed

Post by Birddog 307 » Fri Sep 28, 2018 2:57 pm

I have read the post and Gone Huntin could not have said it any better. I have read enough about your post and I would pick up my dog. I have had a lot of dogs spend a few days at our kennel over the years and I would never hose them down and put a bark collar on them. I have never had a dog that after a couple of days with me that wasn't as happy as being with the owner. You must become buddies with the dog before you can start training. Your trainer said that she introduced him to birds three times and all he did was want to run around or run down the road. That would not be the way I would introduce a young dog to birds. The dog would be on a checkcord and not be running around without being able to evaluate it's pointing instinct first.
Birddog 307

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Re: Just got a call from trainer: Advice needed

Post by polmaise » Fri Sep 28, 2018 5:01 pm

Birddog 307 (sounds like I am on a cb radio) :)
If Gonehuntin said it best, why add to it :wink: . lol
What the good gentleman did say and is most important to me and probably should be to the OP is that ....
"I really hate to criticize another trainer because in general, there is the owners story and the trainers story and we only have your side of it. However if everything you're saying is factual,".
....
Some dogs (In my limited experience) Take or do not take pressure ..from known or unknown people . Whether they are in a kennel or next to you from a fluffy bed at your feet ...even if you give them a Cookie .

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Re: Just got a call from trainer: Advice needed

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:19 pm

JONOV wrote:Among other things...$450 is too cheap. Meaning, I'd be questioning their credentials at that price.

I'll PM you a good guy to reach out to in OH.
450 a month will get you on the best trainers list of clients in our mid-west area that I am aware of.

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Re: Just got a call from trainer: Advice needed

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:25 pm

polmaise wrote:Birddog 307 (sounds like I am on a cb radio) :)
If Gonehuntin said it best, why add to it :wink: . lol
What the good gentleman did say and is most important to me and probably should be to the OP is that ....
"I really hate to criticize another trainer because in general, there is the owners story and the trainers story and we only have your side of it. However if everything you're saying is factual,".
....
Some dogs (In my limited experience) Take or do not take pressure ..from known or unknown people . Whether they are in a kennel or next to you from a fluffy bed at your feet ...even if you give them a Cookie .
Didn't notice anything added but just more of the same worded differently. However the best in the past does not say it can't be better if added too. Would be nice if we spent our time answering questions rather than trying to be clever on so many posts.

Ezzy

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Re: Just got a call from trainer: Advice needed

Post by ddoyle » Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:42 pm

Didn't see anybody ask about breeder. What are their thoughts? How did you find this trainer?

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Re: Just got a call from trainer: Advice needed

Post by Meller » Sat Sep 29, 2018 7:05 am

Hindsight is 20/20, and always easy to criticize the former happening!

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Re: Just got a call from trainer: Advice needed

Post by PoorMansWrangler » Sat Sep 29, 2018 7:13 am

Morning everyone. The pup is out of Bonas Kennel, in Indiana and is from European lines. I called and spoke with the trainer yesterday, with some interesting conversations. The trainer said yesterday was the first time she felt Boone (my dog) had felt comfortable. She said he didn’t whine at all, and was playing with the dog next to him, was digging holes in the tie out and was actually sleeping. She said he actually slept through the night. On the aspect of her bumping up his food, initially she claimed she thought the pup was whining and carrying on so much because he was hungry. He is now having runny stools (went from 3 cups to 4.5 then up to 6), so she said this means he is being more comfortable and is not “worrying” off the weight and she plans to cut his food back now. She also mentioned that since he is staying outside, he needs more calories. etc. Yesterday he still did not show any interest in birds planted in the field, and walked through the trap. She claims he held a bird right in front of his nose, and he could have cared less. I have no clue on the validity of any of this. She would like to keep him for a few more days, and if he continues to shows sign of progression, she will continue to work him. She thinks he will get better with the more time he spends out there, and thinks he just had a really hard time adapting to the new environment. I am torn as to what to do. I have been in contact with some trainers, unfortunate none have openings, but I am still waiting to here back from some trainers who offer weekly sessions. I am a first time hunting dog owner, so I apologize if I am in the wrong in my thoughts! Any opinions on a next course of action? I would love to train him myself, however I currently rent in the city (military) and work long hours. Do you guys think there is any validity in her claim that I have ruined the dog by walking him too much?

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Re: Just got a call from trainer: Advice needed

Post by PoorMansWrangler » Sat Sep 29, 2018 7:21 am

Also, she mentioned when she would bring the dog down wind of the trap with the bird in it, he got scared by the trap when it sprung. I watched the Perfect Start and Finish Videos, and I realize every trainer has their own ways, but to me this didn’t seem like the correct way to introduce a pup to birds when the dog has never seen a game bird up close. On the trainer, I found her online, and she lives about 40 minutes away. She breeds English setters, and when I initially visited her, she had other dogs their she was training (labs and setters primarily). She told me she had only had to send one dog home in her entire life when I first visited, then when I dropped the dog off she was getting ready to send another setter home because he would only sight point (this would be her 2nd dog). This could have been a red flag looking back on it. She said she had lots of experience with pointers, and thought she would have had no issues. Hopefully this provides some more background. I got in tough with some preserves that have guides, and they said they do offer weekly training sessions. I am waiting to hear back now.

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Re: Just got a call from trainer: Advice needed

Post by shags » Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:58 am

I would go get the dog asap. Too much screwy nonsense going on over there IMO.

Look up Buckeye German Shorthaired Pointer club, and German Shorthaired Pointer Club of Ohio. Call the contact person and see if there are any members near you who can help you out with training.

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Re: Just got a call from trainer: Advice needed

Post by mask » Sat Sep 29, 2018 10:06 am

Shags is spot on. Go rescue your dog because at this point it is a rescue. This person is no dog trainer and does not appear to know what she is doing.

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Re: Just got a call from trainer: Advice needed

Post by PoorMansWrangler » Sat Sep 29, 2018 11:39 am

Just for some clarification, in your guys opinion has she done anything to improve my dog at all? I know 2 weeks is not a long time, and I have my own opinion. Has any of the techniques she has done has any legitimacy?

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Re: Just got a call from trainer: Advice needed

Post by Settertude » Sat Sep 29, 2018 11:45 am

PoorMansWrangler wrote:Just for some clarification, in your guys opinion has she done anything to improve my dog at all? I know 2 weeks is not a long time, and I have my own opinion. Has any of the techniques she has done has any legitimacy?
I'm confused as to why you could ask that question given your original post.
From your report, that individual has more likely done damage than done anything beneficial.

Maybe you are wondering about payment?

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Re: Just got a call from trainer: Advice needed

Post by shags » Sat Sep 29, 2018 11:51 am

Had to cut off a bark collar.
Hosed the dog.
Massively increased dog's ration resulting in squirts.
Intro'd birds with noisy launcher that spooked an already scared confused dog.
Told you the dog was ruined from too much walking.
Held a bird in front of the dog and expected what?

On the plus side, the dog seems to be more settled in aa kennel situation. But that has more to do with the dog than with "training".

My dog would have been in my truck heading home first thing after work yesterday if not sooner.

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Re: Just got a call from trainer: Advice needed

Post by ddoyle » Sat Sep 29, 2018 1:34 pm

I am most definitely a novice trainer but I would say per your words she has only hurt your dog. The point of the launcher is not let the dog get to close. Also, “held a bird” if they are not showing interest did she tease? Did she try to bring out prey drive? Did she pull flight feathers and let your dog chase?

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Re: Just got a call from trainer: Advice needed

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Sep 29, 2018 2:16 pm

ddoyle wrote:I am most definitely a novice trainer but I would say per your words she has only hurt your dog. The point of the launcher is not let the dog get to close. Also, “held a bird” if they are not showing interest did she tease? Did she try to bring out prey drive? Did she pull flight feathers and let your dog chase?
That was new one to me also. Never heard of holding a bird in front of a dog as part of a training program. What was the expected results? From what you have told us, there has been no training which is probably the result of no program that produces the results that are sought. Bring your pup home with no malus and just start over.

Ezzy

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Re: Just got a call from trainer: Advice needed

Post by CDN_Cocker » Sat Sep 29, 2018 3:01 pm

Your dog has got more negatives than positives. Nothing good has came from that stay. Hopefully the damage isn't permanent.

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Re: Just got a call from trainer: Advice needed

Post by Sharon » Sat Sep 29, 2018 3:21 pm

PoorMansWrangler

Do not feel badly. These are mistakes many new gun dog owners make , including me. That's why it is so great to have a forum where opinions/ experience are kindly ( hopefully) discussed.
I picked a trainer out of the American Field mag. advertising pages many years ago to have my GSP taught to retrieve( force on the bench) .
I thought the mag would be reliable :roll: After 4 weeks the trainer said it was too hot to do much; after 8 weeks the dog would hold a dowel and that was all it would do. We live and learn. Just start again. :)

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Re: Just got a call from trainer: Advice needed

Post by cjhills » Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:52 pm

The good thing is that it is nearly impossible to do anything to a well bred GSP that can't be fixed and for sure you did not take the dog on too many walks. It would ruin you before it would ruin the dog.
I have no Idea what trainers goals are.
George Hickox holds a bird to get the dog to hold point until he throws it in his videos and I have done that sometimes. So maybe that is part of her plan.
My approach with this dog if she came to my kennel, would be to let her run with my dogs in the field. If she is hard to catch or recall I would let her drag a checkcord and if she is collar conditioned I would have her wearing a collar for sure control. She would just have fun for the first two weeks. She would soon see me as the leader and buy into my program. If you could take her out and let her run where there are wild birds that would be the best chance. let her run with only a ecollar. let her chase and do whatever she likes. when she gets into chasing then start training

The one thing that seems really suspect is having her eat triple food. Almost every dog that comes into my kennel does not eat much the first couple days. some get runny stools, but none would eat more than they are used to. Some go 2 or 3 days without eating. They get their chance to eat when the other dogs eat. In a hour it is taken away. I just do not buy that........Cj
Last edited by cjhills on Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Just got a call from trainer: Advice needed

Post by Steve007 » Sat Sep 29, 2018 5:45 pm

cjhills wrote: and for sure you did not take the dog on too many walks. It would ruin you before it would ruin the dog.
I have nothing to add to the comments of others except to reinforce cjchills' statement about walks. Depends on where you live, but my dogs and I live in the suburbs. We go for walks almost every day. We have significant accomplishments in both competitive birdhunting and other dog sports as well. For intelligent suburban dog owners, it's all positive and no negative. But hope for a bench along the way. If you find one, think of it as interval training. :wink:

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Re: Just got a call from trainer: Advice needed

Post by PoorMansWrangler » Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:44 am

Just wanted to post a update. The pup is back home. I went and picked him up yesterday. I had the trainer put three quail out in the field, and she replied with it won’t matter he won’t hunt, but I wanted to see for myself. I put him on a 50ft check chord, helped him to the field and released him at the edge. Dog found and pointed the three quail, and I was able to woah him and work a 50 ft circle around the birds while he was at woah, and he was steady to flush. The trainer was shocked. Only negative she had to say was his tail wasn’t point straight up when he was at point, but he had his tail straight out. My pup lost his mind on the birds and was fired up. Scheduling weekly training sessions down the road now! Thank you for all the advice!

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Re: Just got a call from trainer: Advice needed

Post by cjhills » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:11 am

A 12o'clock tail has mostly nothing to do with anything.....Cj

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Re: Just got a call from trainer: Advice needed

Post by Settertude » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:33 am

cjhills wrote:A 12o'clock tail has mostly nothing to do with anything.....Cj
That right there should be a banner at the top of the forum.

A 12o'clock tail has mostly nothing to do with anything.....Cj

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Re: Just got a call from trainer: Advice needed

Post by shags » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:50 am

So much for the Too Many Walks Ruined Him theory :roll:

Good luck going forward.

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Re: Just got a call from trainer: Advice needed

Post by NC Quailhunter » Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:31 am

I am glad that the negative experience with that trainer didn't seem to matter much. Get with a Shorthair club or a NAVHDA Chapter and I am sure you will get the help you need to get the pup on the right track. I am glad that you got your pup out of that place.
Also a twelve o'clock tail doesn't find the birds. Field trailers love them but for a hunting companion it isn't as important as it is hyped up to be.
Good luck and keep us updated.

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Re: Just got a call from trainer: Advice needed

Post by JONOV » Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:55 am

cjhills wrote:A 12o'clock tail has mostly nothing to do with anything.....Cj
It's one of those things that for field trialers, is important, kind of like you might hear a show ring handler talk about gait or bone structure.

I was listening to the Hunting Dog Podcast, and the guest recounted a story about Bodo Winterhelt (German born, founded NAVHDA) talking about a Pudelpointer or Munsterlander, and one of the judges made a comment about the tail flagging or wagging about the dog on point, and Bodo made the comment that "That end is for $****ing, the front is for pointing!"

Bona's kennels (where OP's dog is from) breeds heavily European lines. A 12 o'clock tail is completely irrelevant to the Europeans.

That's great news about getting your dog back and seeing him point.

I don't know what it is about some trainers, but it makes me throw up a little bit every time I hear it, is a variation on the "you ruined him by walking him." Typically they say, "I'll have to unteach what you've taught him" or "I'll have to see what damage you've done." Please. I taught the dog to heel, come, basic obedience. Next!

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Re: Just got a call from trainer: Advice needed

Post by cjhills » Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:18 am

Actually it is nothing like discussing gait and bone structure in the show ring both have reason a 12o'clock tail has none......Cj

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Re: Just got a call from trainer: Advice needed

Post by Sharon » Mon Oct 01, 2018 12:46 pm

PoorMansWrangler wrote:Just wanted to post a update. The pup is back home. I went and picked him up yesterday. I had the trainer put three quail out in the field, and she replied with it won’t matter he won’t hunt, but I wanted to see for myself. I put him on a 50ft check chord, helped him to the field and released him at the edge. Dog found and pointed the three quail, and I was able to woah him and work a 50 ft circle around the birds while he was at woah, and he was steady to flush. The trainer was shocked. Only negative she had to say was his tail wasn’t point straight up when he was at point, but he had his tail straight out. My pup lost his mind on the birds and was fired up. Scheduling weekly training sessions down the road now! Thank you for all the advice!
Unbelievable! What a story. Hope things only go ahead from now on. :)

( High tail ( especially white) is very useful when hunting. Much easier to see your dog on point. Not essential though as CJ said. )

https://flic.kr/p/27CuGMm

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Re: Just got a call from trainer: Advice needed

Post by polmaise » Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:21 pm

cj .......
bravo , High 5
I have seen some High tails , just before a fight :roll: :wink: ..
Seen some Low tails , just before a Point is made.
..............
Sounds like the OP is back on track ... all is good.

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Re: Just got a call from trainer: Advice needed

Post by birddogger2 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:45 pm

cjhills wrote:Actually it is nothing like discussing gait and bone structure in the show ring both have reason a 12o'clock tail has none......Cj
Actually for longtails(pointers and setters particularly) there is in fact a very good reason. In four foot high grass you might just spot that 12 o'clock tail sticking up when the dog is on point.

I do agree that for short tail continentals like shorthairs a 12 o'clock tail is just window dressing... nice but not necessary.

RayG

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Re: Just got a call from trainer: Advice needed

Post by JONOV » Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:52 pm

cjhills wrote:Actually it is nothing like discussing gait and bone structure in the show ring both have reason a 12o'clock tail has none......Cj
Well, sort of. I’ve seen dogs with goofy looking runs get out there and find birds, same as dogs with heads that maybe looked pointy like a possum. Similarly, I’ll allow the aesthetic preference and the practical advantage of a 12 o’clock tail, being able to see it easily and whatnot. Of course, if it were as big a deal as some tell you, a hunter with a Brittany would never find his dog on point, and we know that’s not the case.

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