Positive enforcement

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by cjhills » Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:20 pm

When training a force retrieve, the ear pinch or toe rope or what ever is the stimulus that causes the reaction, which is to grab the object. That is the only reaction at the ear pinch stage. Possibly a command to release. The dog knows nothing about hold or anything else it is all about grab the dummy. We add "fetch" when the dog will to jump three feet high to grab the dummy or pick the dummy quickly off the floor. There is nothing about " hold" until the dog knows "grab" when his ear is pinched or something a lot worse (adding a stimulus). By the definition it is positive. Any reasonable person or dog would see it as negative. That is where the communication problems come in......Cj

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by averageguy » Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:25 am

No by definition the ear pinch and then releasing it the moment the dog gets the object in its mouth is Negative Re-enforcement. You need to go back and read the definitions in the link Shags posted. (And Hold precedes the ear pinch if the training is being done in the right order.)

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by Trekmoor » Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:05 am

I have to admit it ……. I'm lost ! My brain cell's steel shutters have come down ! :roll:

Dog training is as simple or as complicated as we want it to be and my brain cell prefers "simple."

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by averageguy » Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:09 am

Trekmoor wrote:I have to admit it ……. I'm lost ! My brain cell's steel shutters have come down ! :roll:

Dog training is as simple or as complicated as we want it to be and my brain cell prefers "simple."

Bill T.
Looks pretty simple to my eye. And effective.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0eBekc1S4w

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by polmaise » Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:02 am

Trekmoor wrote:I have to admit it ……. I'm lost ! My brain cell's steel shutters have come down ! :roll:

Dog training is as simple or as complicated as we want it to be and my brain cell prefers "simple."

Bill T.
This should make it all clear Bill .
I have sent a copy to the "Soup Dragon" :lol: :lol:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/arti ... leash.html

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by Trekmoor » Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:14 pm

The Soup Dragon says that she is always hoping that I will slip the lead, run away ….and not come back ! :roll: I just can't win with that wummin ! :x

Bill

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by polmaise » Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:19 pm

It Is really Simple Bill . You just have to follow it !....
averageguy wrote:The DVD programs that have come out have been very helpful to the masses in better preparing amateurs such as myself. Even better twice I bought a short 1:1 session with a talented Pro Trainer and got their eyes on me working with my dog during our FF training. Both times the major benefit was the Pro telling me I was on the right track. Obviously FF done right works, but I think alot of amateurs such as myself have a higher hurdle to get it right.
Start with Heel work . nick. perceived PR trainer .nick.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKf0MaxuY_Y

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by averageguy » Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:18 pm


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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by Ouzel » Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:18 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fv9lCsOxhu4 Once the dog knows the command "come", for instance, you can enforce with whatever means you think necessary. Thus, you're not offering a piece of cheese that the dog weighs when deciding whether to chase a squirrel; rather, you're teaching the dog to come. Once learned, you can teach that disobeying the command has consequences. PR is a teaching tool, nothing more.

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by oldbeek » Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:03 pm

The time for negative reinforcement comes when you have a dog with huge prey drive and a hard head. I am not a trainer, but have my dog to where she does everything with a smile perfectly. In training sessions, when using another gunner, when running trials, etc. Get her in 50 or so wild quail and she starts making her own rules. I want her to hold till shot and her prey drive tells her to leave on flush. She is 5 yrs old and will be perfect on 2 or 3 birds them goes wild on the next. Still perfect point and hold till flush, then she is gone. That is when some real negative reinforcement comes in. She knows by the first whoa comes in. She even tries to get back to the bush. I yank her up by the hair on her butt and her collar and plant her back at her point position, stimulating at the same time.

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by averageguy » Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:49 am

Oldbeek, I have never trained a dog without some negative reinforcement and can relate to your post. Deer breaking and enforcing Whoa in the presence of flying and falling birds are two areas where I have used it on every dog I have trained.

I hunt alone a lot and smart dogs know very well when your focus is on swinging your shotgun to shoot a bird vs on them. When I hunt with others I use it as an opportunity to tune things up with them shooting while I dog handle to get in some well timed corrections.

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by cjhills » Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:22 am

Properly bred and trained dogs never cheat. They accept their trainer. They may make a mistake but they don't purposely cheat when they know you aren't watching. Passive training and conditioned response works and lasts. We need to know what the dog sees as Positive and Negative.
O.B. if you were starting your dog now, with all you learned training her the first time and Running NSTRA, do you think you would have the same issues you have now.? I don't. We get better with each dog...Cj

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by mnaj_springer » Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:37 am

cjhills wrote:When training a force retrieve, the ear pinch or toe rope or what ever is the stimulus that causes the reaction, which is to grab the object. That is the only reaction at the ear pinch stage. Possibly a command to release. The dog knows nothing about hold or anything else it is all about grab the dummy. We add "fetch" when the dog will to jump three feet high to grab the dummy or pick the dummy quickly off the floor. There is nothing about " hold" until the dog knows "grab" when his ear is pinched or something a lot worse (adding a stimulus). By the definition it is positive. Any reasonable person or dog would see it as negative. That is where the communication problems come in......Cj
No. The ear pinch is not positive reinforcement. It is negative reinforcement. Again, you increase a behavior (fetch, grab, whatever vernacular you use) by removing a stimulus (the ear pinch, toe hitch, whatever it is). The dog does the behavior to remove the stimulus, not to add the stimulus.

Obviously it's not always one stimuli or conditioning technique used for a particular behavior. For example, house breaking may involve 2 or 3 conditioning methods. 1. Positive reinforcement- giving the dog a treat (stimulus) to increase outside urination. 2. Negative reinforcement- removing a stimulus (the pain of a full bladder) to increase outside urination (note: relieving oneself is naturally reinforces the behavior). 3. Positive punishment- a swat on the butt (stimulus) to decrease indoor urination.

I get that it's complex, and honestly, whether it is reinforcement or punishment depends on how it affects behavior and not the intention of the act. Also, don't get into proper house breaking technique. I'm not advocating for any particular method, just using it as a tool to explain conditioning.

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by polmaise » Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:53 am

I have not read one single post in the thread that completely explains Positive enforcement (including mine and all the links) :(
Some have parts of a picture and others are like "Quotes" from others ! That includes our learned friend Ellis.
....
It works great when you get the right understanding and implementation on a newly bred pup with no history though ..even then it requires a good implementer who has the ability to change it when the occasion arises in development at any and all stages .
Back home we call it "Reading a dog" . Having more dogs in a life time doesn't carry that the Implementer gets better at it ,if they continue with the same strategy for every dog . :wink:

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by cjhills » Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:01 pm

mnaj_springer wrote:
cjhills wrote:When training a force retrieve, the ear pinch or toe rope or what ever is the stimulus that causes the reaction, which is to grab the object. That is the only reaction at the ear pinch stage. Possibly a command to release. The dog knows nothing about hold or anything else it is all about grab the dummy. We add "fetch" when the dog will to jump three feet high to grab the dummy or pick the dummy quickly off the floor. There is nothing about " hold" until the dog knows "grab" when his ear is pinched or something a lot worse (adding a stimulus). By the definition it is positive. Any reasonable person or dog would see it as negative. That is where the communication problems come in......Cj
No. The ear pinch is not positive reinforcement. It is negative reinforcement. Again, you increase a behavior (fetch, grab, whatever vernacular you use) by removing a stimulus (the ear pinch, toe hitch, whatever it is). The dog does the behavior to remove the stimulus, not to add the stimulus.

Obviously it's not always one stimuli or conditioning technique used for a particular behavior. For example, house breaking may involve 2 or 3 conditioning methods. 1. Positive reinforcement- giving the dog a treat (stimulus) to increase outside urination. 2. Negative reinforcement- removing a stimulus (the pain of a full bladder) to increase outside urination (note: relieving oneself is naturally reinforces the behavior). 3. Positive punishment- a swat on the butt (stimulus) to decrease indoor urination.

I get that it's complex, and honestly, whether it is reinforcement or punishment depends on how it affects behavior and not the intention of the act. Also, don't get into proper house breaking technique. I'm not advocating for any particular method, just using it as a tool to explain conditioning.
Mnaj
I get what you are saying( I think) and I thank you for trying.
The ear pinch motivates the dog to grab the dummy . I suppose release is a reward. I think most all dogs are trained more by negative or passive than by positive reinforcement. Dogs by their nature are hardwired to respond to negative or passive.......Cj

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by JONOV » Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:05 pm

polmaise wrote:I have not read one single post in the thread that completely explains Positive enforcement (including mine and all the links) :(
Some have parts of a picture and others are like "Quotes" from others ! That includes our learned friend Ellis.
....
It works great when you get the right understanding and implementation on a newly bred pup with no history though ..even then it requires a good implementer who has the ability to change it when the occasion arises in development at any and all stages .
Back home we call it "Reading a dog" . Having more dogs in a life time doesn't carry that the Implementer gets better at it ,if they continue with the same strategy for every dog . :wink:
That's because people convolute it for the sake of an argument. Its simply a response the dog "wants" (treat, praise, clicker) to reinforce a behavior.

Why its so hard for people to hold two competing ideas in their mind and accept them both as effective or correct or having their place, I have no idea.

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by polmaise » Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:44 pm

cjhills wrote: The ear pinch motivates the dog to grab the dummy .
Mind those fingers :lol:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwrcNqBqweg

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by averageguy » Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:09 pm

cjhills wrote:Properly bred and trained dogs never cheat. ...Cj
Yea, that happens alot on the internet.

Sorry Guys, been hunting this morning. Whew did I get some nice dog work on this rooster. Constantly moving in the CRP grass, tracking him over 150 yards, pointed him 3 times. Last time he was pinned between the dog and I and he had no choice but to fly for that last time. Never gets old. And provides a form of PR for the dog. Dog keeps a cool head, continues to keep in contact with the moving bird, gets him pinned down/pointed, ending with a retrieve. Which is what he wants the whole time. To get a bird in his mouth.

Image

Polmaise,

Shags' post near the start of the thread provides excellent verbiage definitions as far as written words. I have posted two videos which demonstrate PR in action on young puppies.

Using treats to condition my puppies to Hunt Dead, conditioning the puppy that returning to me with the bumper results in another fun toss to chase, conditioning the puppy that when they stop and point the bird, I will flush it, shoot it and the puppy gets the bird in its mouth, conditioning the puppy that walking in the direction I walk leads to way to game is yet another. In all cases the puppy's actions lead to positive outcomes for them. Which is by definition PR.
Last edited by averageguy on Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by cjhills » Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:15 pm

HIJACK

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by birddogger2 » Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:43 pm

cjhills wrote:Properly bred and trained dogs never cheat. They may make a mistake but they don't purposely cheat when they know you aren't watching. Cj
I call BS on that observation.

I have seen dogs deliberately do things they knew full well that they were not supposed to do both when they thought I couldn't see them and sometimes...right in front of me.

A fair number of times these things happened at trials when the dog was not wearing an e-collar(and they knew that too). However, there have been times when the dog looked up at me and then looked back down at the bird...and RIPPED IT... with me standing right there.

RayG

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by averageguy » Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:54 pm

birddogger2 wrote:
cjhills wrote:Properly bred and trained dogs never cheat. They may make a mistake but they don't purposely cheat when they know you aren't watching. Cj
I call BS on that observation.

I have seen dogs deliberately do things they knew full well that they were not supposed to do both when they thought I couldn't see them and sometimes...right in front of me.

A fair number of times these things happened at trials when the dog was not wearing an e-collar(and they knew that too). However, there have been times when the dog looked up at me and then looked back down at the bird...and RIPPED IT... with me standing right there.

RayG
Thank you RayG.

CJ, That post is all about PR. You not liking my posts does not equate to a HIJACK. Get over it buddy because I am not going away.
Last edited by averageguy on Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by polmaise » Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:56 pm

birddogger2 wrote: I call BS on that observation.
Me Too!...
I have had a dog eat its own Sh*#t , and every one else Sh*#t ..and still looked at me as if ? " What next " .

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by Trekmoor » Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:51 pm

I have owned and trained two dogs, one a lab and one a Brittany, both of them field trial winners, that would chase hares if they thought I could not see them and not chase them if they thought I could see them. The lab even managed to amuse me during one chase when she suddenly realised I could now see her so she instantly stopped chasing and began to saunter about as if butter would not melt in her mouth ! :lol:

I think some of the more clever dogs teach themselves under what circumstances they can misbehave.


Dogs aren't angels and I don't want them to be either.


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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by gonehuntin' » Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:28 pm

birddogger2 wrote:
I call BS on that observation.
RayG
Same here. EVERY dog will do something right 100 times, do it wrong and try to do it wrong again . I've seen labs go on a blind, lay their ears back, droop their tail and start on a wrong line. KNOWING a correction was coming. I've seen a setter staunchly point, watch me as I approached, then jump on the bird, knowing he was about to become one of Colonel Sander's finest.

Dog's, every dog, do things wrong on purpose.

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by polmaise » Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:02 pm

gonehuntin' wrote: Dog's, every dog, do things wrong on purpose.
Nope !!!!
But they dont do every thing right on purpose . :wink: ..

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by cjhills » Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:14 pm

polmaise wrote:
birddogger2 wrote: I call BS on that observation.
Me Too!...
I have had a dog eat its own Sh*#t , and every one else Sh*#t ..and still looked at me as if ? " What next " .
pretty sure dogs don't think eating "bleep" is wrong. Mine will dig Through Two Feet of snow for a poopsicle. I don't think dogs have a perception of right and wrong.....Cj

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by polmaise » Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:20 pm

cjhills wrote:
polmaise wrote:
birddogger2 wrote: I call BS on that observation.
Me Too!...
I have had a dog eat its own Sh*#t , and every one else Sh*#t ..and still looked at me as if ? " What next " .
pretty sure dogs don't think eating "bleep" is wrong. Mine will dig Through Two Feet of snow for a poopsicle. I don't think dogs have a perception of right and wrong.....Cj
Got to disagree... They (Dogs) .....Will and Do have a perception of right and wrong ! ..If they did not ...We " ... as trainers /handlers would have nothing ...but ? :!:

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by birddogger2 » Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:18 pm

[quote="polmaise
Got to disagree... They (Dogs) .....Will and Do have a perception of right and wrong ! ..If they did not ...We " ... as trainers /handlers would have nothing ...but ? [/quote]

Not to be pedantic, but then I can't help it...

As I understand it, the concepts of right and wrong are human constructs based on moral values. Thus I tend to agree that dogs do not know or understand right versus wrong behavior.

I do however strongly believe that dogs do understand, and VERY CLEARLY understand, what is acceptable behavior and what is not. They start learning this concept from their momma as puppies in the whelping box. They continue to learn which behaviors are acceptable and which is not from their littermates and pack mates, and hopefully from their human trainer(at least that is the plan :lol: :lol: )

To bring this back around to the original discussion, the teaching methods of the momma dog that I have seen are a mix of positive and negative reinforcement. Some of the negative reinforcements I have seen in the whelping box are, I am sure, pretty intimidating to the pups, and are clearly meant to be.

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by averageguy » Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:31 pm

You know what dogs understand really well?

They understand what they want. Really well. Which is why when our training is able to incorporate something they really want in exchange for a behavior, they are easily inclined to offer that behavior eagerly in order to get what they want.

Which is PR.

Which was the purpose of my Pheasant hunting paragraph. A dog which really wants a retrieve, who also learns what style of work produces it, will work in that style in order to get what it wants. It is the basis of the standard we all have adhered to when training pointing breed puppies for long time - Don't shoot birds the dog takes out so the dog learns it does not get what it wants using that behavior. Rather shoot the birds the dog points, which yields what the dog wants, the bird, and builds/re-enforces the pointing behavior because of it.

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by cjhills » Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:58 pm

Personally, I don't believe all dogs, Maybe not even most dogs, really give a hoot about the retrieve or want the bird in their mouth. If they did why would they bring it to you and give it to you. The trial dogs that watch the bird fly away are happy to go find another one and are easily trained not to chase the one that flew away. Most never have a bird in their mouth. Making them retrieve when they would rather hunt is negative.
Guide dogs are trained to never disobey. Can you imagine a guide dog taking his owner across a street against a light or catching a skunk.
They also do not start their training until a or to old. They are put in homes with people as puppies. The people do not teach the dog anything. They go into training as a blank sheet of paper.......Cj

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by averageguy » Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:07 pm

There are a multitude of dogs which love to retrieve. If you have not run across them that reveals a major skill set is lacking in the dogs you are working with.

Not giving a Trial dog a retrieve helps keep it steady, which proves that were the dog given a retrieve it might well value that above standing still, and in turn become less reliable at remaining steady when birds fly and a shot is fired. Which is exactly why many of them never or seldom have live birds shot over them. Which aligns with the point I made.

But setting that aside, the point remains which is central to the subject you tee'd up in this thread; what dogs want is a powerful motivator and tool in building behavior when we are able to give them whatever they want in exchange for what we want.

We cannot complete all training using that approach but a great deal of it can be and at a much younger age than pressure based methods can be applied. And we can instill a love for learning and working with us in the puppy that carries on for life.

And you are wrong, the puppy raisers within the guide dog program most certainly do train the puppies in many areas before they move to the Guide Dog program with someone else doing that training.

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by gonehuntin' » Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:30 am

I always think these PR discussions are pretty funny. PR has been around as long as I have. It's how people and trainers have always got puppies to complete training tasks. Always. I haven't read it in years, but I'd bet that James Lamb Free preached it in his bible on Retriever Training. PR is great and necessary for young dog's and it works for old dogs as long as they WANT to comply. When they don't, it's time for Negative. Both positive and negative should be incorporated for every dog trained
BUT if someone told me you have two choices, you can train a dog with PR or with NR, but only one, it's going to be NR because I know I'll get a well trained dog faster and easier and it will be a better trained dog.

It is the BLENDING of PR with NR that make the two in tandem so powerful.

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by averageguy » Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:05 am

GH, we have had the discussion elsewhere and I mostly agree. I think your ability to get faster results using NR is not necessarily the case with many Novice trainers who I think may well produce better and faster results working with one puppy at a time using a greater mix of PR. I think a Novice can get into trouble way faster using NR than a pro trainer is likely to, as well as a Novice has many times a day to make productive use of PR with their puppy.

No matter, both have their place with PR being the greater emphasis at an earlier age.

PS I would not know where to begin if I had to train a dog with 100% one or the other but am pretty certain I would have ruined every puppy I have trained had I been limited to 100% NR. I don’t even know what that looks like in the literal sense of working with a young puppy.

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by Trekmoor » Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:05 am

Quote …." PS I would not know where to begin if I had to train a dog with 100% one or the other" Unquote.

That makes two of us. I'd be lost as a trainer if I could not blend together positive and negative ways of training adjusted to suit an individual dog.

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by gonehuntin' » Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:17 pm

averageguy wrote:GH, we have had the discussion elsewhere and I mostly agree. I think your ability to get faster results using NR is not necessarily the case with many Novice trainers who I think may well produce better and faster results working with one puppy at a time using a greater mix of PR. I think a Novice can get into trouble way faster using NR than a pro trainer is likely to, as well as a Novice has many times a day to make productive use of PR with their puppy.

No matter, both have their place with PR being the greater emphasis at an earlier age.

PS I would not know where to begin if I had to train a dog with 100% one or the other but am pretty certain I would have ruined every puppy I have trained had I been limited to 100% NR. I don’t even know what that looks like in the literal sense of working with a young puppy.


I absolutely agree with that post 100%. I was speaking in terms of myself and not a newbie trainer. You've pointed that out to me numerous times but I keep forgetting to highlight that fact.

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by JONOV » Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:54 pm

cjhills wrote:When training a force retrieve, the ear pinch or toe rope or what ever is the stimulus that causes the reaction, which is to grab the object. That is the only reaction at the ear pinch stage. Possibly a command to release. The dog knows nothing about hold or anything else it is all about grab the dummy. We add "fetch" when the dog will to jump three feet high to grab the dummy or pick the dummy quickly off the floor. There is nothing about " hold" until the dog knows "grab" when his ear is pinched or something a lot worse (adding a stimulus). By the definition it is positive. Any reasonable person or dog would see it as negative. That is where the communication problems come in......Cj
Look, any high school Psychology textbook would tell you what's positive and what isn't. And that's where this argument largely stems from. In the modern lexicon its all a function of Operant conditioning.

Positive reinforcement occurs when a behavior (response) is rewarding or the behavior is followed by another stimulus that is rewarding, increasing the frequency of that behavior. The basic dog training example is sit-for-treats, oftentimes taught before they're potty trained. But even when forcefetching my dog, I heaped praise after he dropped the dowel after I told him too...

Negative reinforcement (a.k.a. escape) occurs when a behavior (response) is followed by the removal of an aversive stimulus, thereby increasing the original behavior's frequency. This is the core tenant of any force fetch program out there, the dog removes the stimulus by grabbing the bumper. BF Skinner (the one who first coined and wrote about all this in the late 30's) did this with rats and pigeons (not bumpers though.)

Positive punishment (also referred to as "punishment by contingent stimulation") occurs when a behavior (response) is followed by an aversive stimulus. Example: pain from a spanking, which would often result in a decrease in that behavior. Positive punishment is a confusing term, so the procedure is usually referred to as "punishment". The most mundane version is when you knee a dog that jumps on your chest. For a gundog specific example, trash breaking off a deer, snake avoidance clinics...

Negative punishment (penalty) (also called "punishment by contingent withdrawal") occurs when a behavior (response) is followed by the removal of a stimulus. Anyone ever make a dog wait while you went out and picked up a shot bird if the dog broke? That's the only "negative punishment" example I could easily grasp when training a dog. They are very much 'in-the-moment' creatures for that to have a huge impact in dog training IMO, though I know some will disagree.

Extinction occurs when a behavior (response) that had previously been reinforced is no longer effective. IE, a dog that creeps and crowds because of too many planted garbage quail is "made honest" using a launcher and strong flying pigeons. What used to yield a reward (creeping, taking out, chasing, now doesn't)

HOWEVER, much of the above is lost when people look at dog training philosophies like Denise Fenzi, where she seems to advocate training without corrections.

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by cjhills » Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:50 pm

Jonov:
Thank you for your very informative post Also thanks to Mnaj and Sharon. I really appreciate you spending your time to help. I can't really say I understand the whole concept. I think it is pretty obvious that a lot of other people don't either.
I think Canine Psychology is a bit different because they are pack animals and they don't feel secure without a strong pack leader. I also think people over think training pointing dogs. They only really need two basic commands "here and whoa". If they come when you call, Stop and stay stopped until released on bird scent, A bird in the air and a dog on point, every thing else is pretty much natural......Cj

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by cjhills » Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:17 pm

averageguy wrote:There are a multitude of dogs which love to retrieve. If you have not run across them that reveals a major skill set is lacking in the dogs you are working with.

Not giving a Trial dog a retrieve helps keep it steady, which proves that were the dog given a retrieve it might well value that above standing still, and in turn become less reliable at remaining steady when birds fly and a shot is fired. Which is exactly why many of them never or seldom have live birds shot over them. Which aligns with the point I made.

But setting that aside, the point remains which is central to the subject you tee'd up in this thread; what dogs want is a powerful motivator and tool in building behavior when we are able to give them whatever they want in exchange for what we want.

We cannot complete all training using that approach but a great deal of it can be and at a much younger age than pressure based methods can be applied. And we can instill a love for learning and working with us in the puppy that carries on for life.

And you are wrong, the puppy raisers within the guide dog program most certainly do train the puppies in many areas before they move to the Guide Dog program with someone else doing that training.
This is really A news flash to me. Field Trial trainers can't train their dogs steady to shot if they let them retrieve. I guess hunt test and NAVHDA trainers are better at that because MH dogs and higher level NAVHDA, have to retrieve gently to hand and honor their brace mate through a retrieve. They are absolutely steady to wing shot and fall. Also stop to flush with no command.
One other small thing, myself and several family members raise puppies for guide dog trainers. we pay all expenses for the puppies first year.
These are specially bred dogs, generally crosses of Labs and Goldens. we are instructed to housetrain them but,to do as little training as possible. Also to get them out in public but not allow strangers to handle them.

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by polmaise » Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:23 pm

birddogger2 wrote:[quote="polmaise
Got to disagree... They (Dogs) .....Will and Do have a perception of right and wrong ! ..If they did not ...We " ... as trainers /handlers would have nothing ...but ?
Not to be pedantic, but then I can't help it...

As I understand it, the concepts of right and wrong are human constructs based on moral values. Thus I tend to agree that dogs do not know or understand right versus wrong behavior.

RayG[/quote]
I tend to agree that dogs do what is Right for them and dont do what is wrong for them :wink:
That "Right" ..may be what the human perceives as "Wrong" . ... :lol: Takes a good PR person to say No ,when that happens . :D :)

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by averageguy » Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:42 pm

CJ, Yea, my dog is a NAVHDA UT Prize 1 earned at 17 months of age. Which requires Steady to WSF through not only Upland work but Water work as well. All Retrieves delivered sitting at heel, to Hand. My use of PR early and often was key. (Your paraphrase of my post is inaccurate. No Matter.)

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by averageguy » Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:03 pm

An example of PR training with a young puppy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wh9b0SlKbI

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by oldbeek » Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:32 pm

birddogger2 wrote:
cjhills wrote:Properly bred and trained dogs never cheat. They may make a mistake but they don't purposely cheat when they know you aren't watching. Cj
I call BS on that observation.

I have seen dogs deliberately do things they knew full well that they were not supposed to do both when they thought I couldn't see them and sometimes...right in front of me.

A fair number of times these things happened at trials when the dog was not wearing an e-collar(and they knew that too). However, there have been times when the dog looked up at me and then looked back down at the bird...and RIPPED IT... with me standing right there.

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by gonehuntin' » Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:05 pm

As an admitted "Old Timer", I've never understood why people strive to make dog training so complicated. Everything has to have a label which only serves to complicate and confuse more. I have never understood people's needs to do that. It all boils down to when a behavior is rewarded, it's positive. When it's punished, it's negative. See, isn't that easy?

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by birddogger2 » Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:15 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:As an admitted "Old Timer", I've never understood why people strive to make dog training so complicated. Everything has to have a label which only serves to complicate and confuse more. I have never understood people's needs to do that. It all boils down to when a behavior is rewarded, it's positive. When it's punished, it's negative. See, isn't that easy?
My old philosophy professor would be impressed with the way you have reduced this to its "essence". I am also. Phenomenal phenomenology, IMO.

Edmund Husserl could not have done better.

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by averageguy » Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:24 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:As an admitted "Old Timer", I've never understood why people strive to make dog training so complicated. Everything has to have a label which only serves to complicate and confuse more. I have never understood people's needs to do that. It all boils down to when a behavior is rewarded, it's positive. When it's punished, it's negative. See, isn't that easy?
Works for me.

Applying that: The Clicker or Marker word is Praise, the treat is the reward. It is not the least bit complicated. Which makes it very easy for folks to learn and use successfully.

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by JONOV » Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:53 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:As an admitted "Old Timer", I've never understood why people strive to make dog training so complicated. Everything has to have a label which only serves to complicate and confuse more. I have never understood people's needs to do that. It all boils down to when a behavior is rewarded, it's positive. When it's punished, it's negative. See, isn't that easy?
The problem is that people ascribe a moral value and identity politic to it. The concept isn’t hard. But the same way someone might say “I support the Food Stamps Program,” someone else is there to call them a Socialist; someone says “I get these great results using positive reinforcement “ and a naysayers lumps them in with the goofball fringe of the Animal World.

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by Trekmoor » Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:53 am

gonehuntin' wrote:As an admitted "Old Timer", I've never understood why people strive to make dog training so complicated. Everything has to have a label which only serves to complicate and confuse more. I have never understood people's needs to do that. It all boils down to when a behavior is rewarded, it's positive. When it's punished, it's negative. See, isn't that easy?

Now we're talking sense whether in human terms or in canine terms !

Bill T.

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by averageguy » Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:42 am

Polmaise, You asked for some video using PR while the dog was working scent. I responded I did not use Marker/Treat PR relative to my dogs working birds in pointing drills and so did not have any.

I did use Marker/Treat PR to train Whoa is a somewhat similar way to the Willow Creek Video I posted but have no video of that either. I trained mine initially on a table, stacking the puppy up and taking my hands away, when he would stand and not wiggle for a moment, I would click and treat. We then lengthen that time, then went to the ground, then in many situation, then overlayed the pealess whistle command que ... using a clicker or Marker Praise word and a treat to Praise and Reward correct behavior. Down the road we combined the thoroughly trained Whoa with standing released birds. And I overlayed low level ecollar stimulation to proof it.

This video may be of limited value in showing how some PR treats played a small role in some retrieve handling work my dog and I worked on last summer. He is a GWP and as such can get bored with being controlled, and bored with bumpers vs birds. And it was hot. So I was using some treats to keep his mood up, perhaps a little more than it might have been otherwise. I kind of rushed the use of the upside kennel lid as home base. I had seen it in a Hillman video and introduced it in the yard but this was the first time working with it in cover. Prior to that I was walking back and forth to place the dog at the pitchers mound.

At this point I am working the dog in cover. My objective is to have enough blind retrieve handling skills to be able to put my dog into the area of the fall out to 150 yards and then let him search for there with little handling from me in doing it. For practical hunting needs. He is not going to give a retriever breed a run for their money in a trail, but he is highly effective at recovering downed wild game.

This was our first run putting this together in the cover where his bird dog tendencies make him highly tempted to go a searching on his own vs accept the level of handler control required for this work. Note I use the already trained Whoa Whistle que to stop the dog in a standing position and then redirect him when he makes a mistake going to the back pile instead of the right over pile I sent him towards. It accomplishes the objective and avoids putting more control on the dog by making him sit than is productive for his breed/temperament and the training objective at hand. I think I will attempt to undertake teaching Bruce's shepherd whistle in motion steering as an even better approach this coming off season.

This dog and his breeds' natural tendencies to become bored with repetitive work involving a high level of handler control, are why I incorporated some PR treats when I took each bumper. Keep things upbeat as much and as long as I can. I pressed this session one retrieve too long but we ended on the good note I had intended - a mark in cover. An example of one area of work where I make use of PR. Many small trained items of course lead up to this point in our training.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0IzoVb0mWw
Last edited by averageguy on Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by shags » Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:10 am

AG, can you explain what's the deal with the clicker? Why not use a verbal like 'Good' or 'Yep' instead of a gadget?

As an aside, my neighbors gave a pretty good example of clicker training gone awry. They acquired a lab and used a lead and a clicker to boundary train it. One day they removed the lead and the dog took off, and for half an hour we heard Opie come! (click click click) Opie get over here (click click click). Next day Opie had an ecollar...but I don't know how that went ( not so sure I want to find out either).

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by averageguy » Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:02 am

Shags,

As your question contemplates, you can absolutely go straight to a consistently used Praise word to mark the desired behavior and then reward with a treat following. Many trainers do that from the start. As you know good timing for both praise and corrections is critical to training and the clicker is faster and 100% consistent, whereas using the human voice can be slightly slower and more prone to inconsistency. So that is the advantage of a clicker over the human voice. Its disadvantage is it ties up one hand and does not carry over distances and wind.

I use both.

I use a Clicker at the outset including new behaviors and then transition to the consistent use of "Good Boy" trying my best to do it the same each time and put excitement/Praise in my voice. In the video you hear me saying "Good Boy". I will often use that at a distance so that I can mark the correct behavior in the moment and over a distance where a clicker could not be heard.

As a related aside: Years ago the Tri-Tronics Pro 100 (I think that was the model) I was using had 3 buttons. One was black and delivered a buzz and stimulation at the same time. The yellow button delivered the same buzz and no stimulation. The tool at the time required a key which determined the level of stimulation and so the handler could not change or vary that in the moment as we can now. So having a way to warn the dog instead of always delivering the stimulation was valuable to my training/handling and apparently others as that was how the tool was designed.

A Green button had a distinct high pitched tone. I associated the Green button with Praise and then used it to deliver instant positive feedback to the dog for something done right, using the Green tone button at long distances. For example the moment my puppy got a shot bird in its mouth and began its run back toward me with the bird I would hit the green tone button. Puppies handled this way would run back as hard as they ran out. Which I like to see. Not the only way, but it was an effective way for me working with my puppies at the time.

When I trained the Hold Command on the table I needed both hands and so the clicker was not practical. So I used the "Good Boy" marker/Praise word and then traded the PVC piece for a treat when I asked the dog to release it into my hand. It was productive in teaching the dog what I was asking and gave him an extra motivation as to what was in it for him in doing so. Kept his mood up and the training moving forward.

When I started him moving down the table to pick up the PVC I went back to the clicker initially, hitting it the moment the pup got his mouth on the PVC. He loved it! The challenge was more in keeping him from breaking prematurely to go get the object when I placed it there vs having to use force to make him do it. Later I over layed low level ecollar stimulation so I had a way to enforce the Fetch and Hold commands trained with PR on the table. This allowed me to make timely corrections when the pup dropped the object or more commonly a hot bird at my feet prematurely during training in the hot weather.

On your Neighbors Lab, I do not see that as Marker/Clicker training gone awry, but rather incomplete training which has not been proofed. PR is teaching, Negative Re-enforcement comes in the proofing phase that follows.

The last Willow Creek video link I posted just above, the Trainer says he uses an ecollar to proof the behavior he has taught first using the Clicker. That is what I do, and many others. George Hickox's Great Beginnings DVD shows he and an assistant coaxing an EP puppy back and forth between them marking the puppy's arrival with the clicker and treat. Conditioning the puppy that coming to them yields the Treat i.e. something positive. Then we overlay the Here command. Later an ecollar is overlayed so the dog understands the Here command is non-optional while still continuing to let the dog know that it will be positive when it makes the correct decision to return directly to the Handler when it hears the already trained command.

The value/power of PR is in the teaching phase of training. Dogs learn really fast using the method. Some form of proofing will be needed. I use an ecollar. Check cords and negative markers such as "No!" play a role in others' training who may not use an ecollar. No! always plays a role in my training. PR methods do not eliminate the need for negative re-enforcement and corrections. Corrections are very valuable in training as we all know. But so is a happy and motivated dog and PR makes great use of that and maintains it at a very high level.

I touched on it in a post above, but there are facets of PR that I use which have nothing to do with a Marker or a Treat. When I silently work my puppies on pigeons in launchers, I am teaching them in silence that advancing into the scent cone scares the bird away yielding consistent failure in getting a bird in its mouth. Starting young with strong flying pigeons and tall enough cover that the puppy does not get alot of self gratification in chasing too far, and is too small to do it anyway.

Then a well bred puppy with a good pointing instinct will go to point and hold it stategy instead. Now I can launch and shoot the pigeon in silence and the puppy gets to run to it and get the bird in its mouth. That is the Holy Grail for the GWP puppies I have worked with and a huge positive result. I am teaching the puppy that pointing gets the positive result it seeks, roading in does not. All done in silence. May not work with all puppies but it has worked with all of mine so far and it is a form of PR.

Here is my current dog at 16 months of age. At this stage of training I am not wanting him to key in on me too much as to where to find a bird and so he has already made a couple of pretty big and fast loops in the part of the field I walked towards first where no birds were planted. Note I am wearing shorts and tee shirt as it approaching 80 degrees already that morning so his gait is not as fast you would see while hunting in cool/cold temps.

But note what he does when he hits the scent cone and how far off the bird he is when he hits and holds that point. Note his exuberance when released to retrieve and his self motivation to persist in looking for the bird which he was unable to mark due to distance and tall cover blocking his line of sight. He starts his dead bird search upwind of the bird and it is obvious the moment he gets downwind and hits scent. You will also see me with the ecollar transmitter in hand and eye on the dog during the return, ready to stimulation a correction, should he drop the bird prematurely (which was something he was prone to do at the stage of training).

My use of PR played a big role in getting that result at that age which I think the vast majority of amateur trainers would be thrilled with. Make sure the video starts at the beginning or you will miss a key part of how that early work I described above developed the dog.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxT_jBKhm8E&t=17s

The play retrieve work I do in a tunnel starting days after my puppies arrive in my home around 9 weeks of age is also a form of PR. It is chasing the flying object I toss that the puppies love so much and they have excellent genetics to pick up and carry objects. When they run and get the object in their mouth the tunnel only gives them one direction to go with it and that is back to me. If they are possessive and do not return with the object, I gently take it away, put it out of sight immediately in my armpit and the game ends abruptly there.

If instead they come running to me when I kneel, clap my hands and coax them to do so, I praise them letting them while they hold the bumper, then gently take it away and immediately toss it again. The puppy gets to chase it again when it brings it back to me. And since chasing the object is what drives and motivates the puppy it is a positive result which re-enforces the behavior of returning to me.

Many aspects of what I do with my puppies at a young age is a form of Positive Re-enforcement but does not involve a clicker or a treat. I use what works for what we are working on.

Hope you find something of value here. That is my good intention, never ceasing arguments aside.

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