Positive enforcement

polmaise
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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by polmaise » Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:11 pm

averageguy wrote:Polmaise, You asked for some video using PR while the dog was working scent. I responded I did not use PR relative to my dogs working birds and so did not have any.

I did use PR to train Whoa is a somewhat similar way to the Willow Creek Video I posted but have no video of that either. I trained mine initially on a table, stacking the puppy up and taking my hands away, when he would stand and not wiggle for a moment, I would click and treat. We then lengthen that time, then went to the ground, then in many situation, then overlayed the pealess whistle command que ... using a clicker or Marker Praise word and a treat to Praise and Reward correct behavior. Down the road we combined the thoroughly trained Whoa with standing released birds. And I overlayed low level ecollar stimulation to proof it.

This video may be of limited value in showing how some PR treats played a small role in some retrieve handling work my dog and I worked on last summer. He is a GWP and as such can get bored with being controlled, and bored with bumpers vs birds. And it was hot. So I was using some treats to keep his mood up, perhaps a little more than it might have been otherwise. I kind of rushed the use of the upside kennel lid as home base. I had seen it in a Hillman video and introduced it in the yard but this was the first time working with it in cover. Prior to that I was walking back and forth to place the dog at the pitchers mound.

At this point I am working the dog in cover. My objective is to have enough blind retrieve handling skills to be able to put my dog into the area of the fall out to 150 yards and then let him search for there with little handling from me in doing it. For practical hunting needs. He is not going to give a retriever breed a run for their money in a trail, but he is highly effective at recovering downed wild game.

This was our first run putting this together in the cover where his bird dog tendencies make him highly tempted to go a searching on his own vs accept the level of handler control required for this work.

Hence why I incorporated some PR treats when I took each bumper. An example of one area of work where I make use of PR. Many small trained items of course lead up to this point in our training.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0IzoVb0mWw
Looked like a real Hot day !

shags
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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by shags » Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:51 pm

AG,
I remember when ecollars had one button, and any "settings" were plugged in on the collar. Even so called low was pretty dang hot.

Thanks for answer. For myownself, I prefer verbals, short and sweet and nothing to drop on the floor right when I need it. IME dogs easily pick up on our emotions when we get frustrated or angry or overly excited in a happy sort of way when we're working with them so that they feel it even with clickers or whatever. It might take more self control to be consistent in verbals, but self control on the part of the trainer is an asset to be groomed and developed.

I think most of us here can agree that whatever works, works...whether it's our own preferred methods or not.

This thread has been an interesting read and I thank the posters for their contributions Most of 'em anyway :D

polmaise
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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by polmaise » Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:12 pm

AG , You come across as a good guy . I really hope we have a beer some day .
Most of my You tube clips are personal and relating to individuals or clients or relevant issues in a particular part of training Gundogs .
But just for debate ... Because I know You like a good one .
How much PR and NR and a whole load of just working it it out with the dog was best spent with the dog ..rather than on here .

averageguy
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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by averageguy » Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:54 pm

polmaise wrote:How much PR and NR and a whole load of just working it it out with the dog was best spent with the dog ..rather than on here .
All of it.

My wonderful Wife filmed those training sessions for the productive purpose of sharing them with my pup's Breeder and a group of folks who are all more experienced trainers than I am. Several of them frequent this forum. I got excellent review ,feedback and suggestions by posting the videos on Youtube and sharing the link so they could see how things were going. And I am able to review and see where I did things wrong.

Not to knock what happens on this Forum but it is a far superior approach vs. attempting to type words when approaching someone for help when they have no eyes on the dog and the handler to draw upon. With every cell phone and inexpensive digital cameras taking high quality videos these days combined with free hosting storage to post them on and link to, I am at a lose as to why everyone does not do it.

Would welcome the chance to hunt, train or break bread with you on any occasion. Rough shooting grouse on a moor over pointing dogs would be a bucket list item checked off for me.

Ouzel
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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by Ouzel » Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:57 am

My wife trains her dogs for a sport called Noseworks - basically it’s teaching the dog to find specific odors that are hidden in rooms, outside, in cars, etc. and they make a big deal about when the dog makes a “find”. The "big deal" is treats, exciting play, etc. - something very joyful to the dog. They make the distinction between training a dog to find a specific odor as opposed to training them to do something they were bred to do, like sheepherding, bird hunting, etc. Those latter activities hold special joy for the dog in and of themselves so there is no need for extra rewards, but obedience training is sort of like hunting for odors - there’s nothing in it for the dog unless you make it so. That’s why offering up some food as a reward is so huge, and will trump the traditional force based methods of training every time.

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ezzy333
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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:08 pm

Something I either heard or read 70 years ago is fastest and best method of training will usually break down to 70% positive and 30 % negative and now as I approach my 86th year and all but a scant number of years I still agree with and think that is very nearly correct.

Ezzy

polmaise
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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by polmaise » Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:23 pm

Something I heard 50 years ago was "Traditional training" .
Still hearing it today .
Most these days however add on the perception that they are doing something different .

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ezzy333
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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:08 pm

polmaise wrote:Something I heard 50 years ago was "Traditional training" .
Still hearing it today .
Most these days however add on the perception that they are doing something different .
This happens when people feelhe need to tell you how good they are rather than just letting the results take care of it.

cjhills
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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by cjhills » Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:39 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
polmaise wrote:Something I heard 50 years ago was "Traditional training" .
Still hearing it today .
Most these days however add on the perception that they are doing something different .
This happens when people feel the need to tell you how good they are rather than just letting the results take care of it.
Ezzy:
You really got that right......CJ

averageguy
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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by averageguy » Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:18 pm

cjhills wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:
polmaise wrote:Something I heard 50 years ago was "Traditional training" .
Still hearing it today .
Most these days however add on the perception that they are doing something different .
This happens when people feel the need to tell you how good they are rather than just letting the results take care of it.
Ezzy:
You really got that right......CJ
This is what happens when people feel threatened by someone having success doing things a little different. Even worse for those people when someone stands up to their keyboard bullying.

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Sharon
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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by Sharon » Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:29 pm

I am very tired of this gentlemen. TRy to ignore each other please.

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