Positive enforcement

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Positive enforcement

Post by cjhills » Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:52 am

In a couple previous post there was some discussion of positive enforcement as it applies to dog training. I am not sure everybody agrees on what is positive and what is negative. We can't have a discussion without defining PR and NR. My understanding is giving the dog something he wants is positive and taking away something he wants is negative.
If that is right, it seems impossible to train with only positive enforcement. since basically training is getting the dog to do something he would rather not do.
Would force fetch be positive, since you take away the pain when he grabs the dummy. If you give him a treat for standing still when you "whoa" him is that Negative because he wanted to run away or positive because he got a treat. I would like to hear from PR trainers.....Cj

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by polmaise » Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:14 am

cjhills wrote:I would like to hear from PR trainers.....Cj
I cant possibly comment cj..as I am a Ne-C Trainer :lol: :D
Bill doesnt know what he is but whatever it is it works for him :wink:
Now another one for you Bill , NR ...and its not Northern Rail ..a Non Runner at the horses . :mrgreen: It will be quadrants next ! ..and here was you thinking it was all just Black and white . Some look for e+mc2 rather than + or - . :D
............
Yes I agree cj.....It is pointless to discuss any subject with abbreviations if one does not only Not know what they stand for, but their meaning or interpretation is more important . Good post !
Last edited by polmaise on Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by shags » Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:43 pm


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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by mnaj_springer » Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:49 pm

Here it is from a psychological perspective... reinforcement increases behavior. Punishment reduces a behavior. Positive means adding a stimulus. Negative means you remove a stimulus.

Positive reinforcement: adding a stimulus to increase behavior, such as a treat for sitting.
Negative reinforcement: removing a stimulus to increase behavior, such as force fetch.

There.

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by DougB » Thu Dec 27, 2018 9:49 pm

If that is right, it seems impossible to train with only positive enforcement. since basically training is getting the dog to do something he would rather not do.
No. Dogs are bred to do most of what we want. We reinforce to get them to do it when we want it and the way we want it done.

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by shags » Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:50 am

DougB wrote:
If that is right, it seems impossible to train with only positive enforcement. since basically training is getting the dog to do something he would rather not do.
No. Dogs are bred to do most of what we want. We reinforce to get them to do it when we want it and the way we want it done.
I think it's a combination. We reinforce behaviors we want when the dog performs them, but there comes a time -or times, depending on the boneheadedness of the dog - when we need to add a deterent into the mix. When a dog messes up and chooses to do his thing instead of ours, some *positively negative* actions from us teaches the dog that he made a wrong choice, and that it's better to avoid doing that in the future.

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by Trekmoor » Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:29 am

polmaise wrote: Bill doesnt know what he is but whatever it is it works for him :wink:

............
Yes I agree cj.....It is pointless to discuss any subject with abbreviations if one does not only Not know what they stand for, but their meaning or interpretation is more important . Good post !
Robert is 100 % correct in his statement about me..... I do not know what I am . I just try to do what works and not what doesn't work for each individual dog. Dogs aren't "complicated" so why should we make things complicated by only training in one "way" when other avenues of approach to a dog's training are wide open and ready to be travelled along ?

The use of abbreviations may be quicker to type and easy to understand by those with prior knowledge of the meanings of those abbreviations but my poor wee brain cell just sends the shutters down whenever it sees too many abbreviations.

I was a member of a "Posititive Only" gundog training forum for a short while. Those folk used so many abbreviations and so much so called "descriptive terminology" that I got very annoyed with it …..and said so ! I posted in that if I, with at least 50 years of general dog training and gundog training behind me, could not understand many of the posts then how the heck was a poor newbie to dog training supposed to be able to understand it all ………..and apply it to his/her own dog ? I resigned from that forum just before the enraged mods kicked me off ! :lol:

Dogs keep it simple and so should we.

Bill T.

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by cjhills » Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:26 am

mnaj_springer wrote:Here it is from a psychological perspective... reinforcement increases behavior. Punishment reduces a behavior. Positive means adding a stimulus. Negative means you remove a stimulus.

Positive reinforcement: adding a stimulus to increase behavior, such as a treat for sitting.
Negative reinforcement: removing a stimulus to increase behavior, such as force fetch.

There.
So, by your explanation, the ear pinching in force fetch is positive and stopping it is negative. Makes no sense to me. If I wanted my dog to run faster kicking him in the butt is positive? Pretty sure my dog would think it was negative and so would I...….Cj

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by polmaise » Fri Dec 28, 2018 1:07 pm

Trekmoor wrote:
Robert is 100 % correct in his statement about me..... I do not know what I am . I just try to do what works and not what doesn't work for each individual dog.
Bill T.
Best I can use as a Label ,and have done is "Balanced" . Which is why I am SO against American programmes (especially Retrievers) , and Yet I am SO For them !!.
The application ,implementation and compliance to them often forget the Third Party ! .....The Individual Dog .
....Then add in the Multifaceted other party ....The Individual Training it . :wink: :lol:

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by Sharon » Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:07 pm

mnaj_springer wrote:Here it is from a psychological perspective... reinforcement increases behavior. Punishment reduces a behavior. Positive means adding a stimulus. Negative means you remove a stimulus.

Positive reinforcement: adding a stimulus to increase behavior, such as a treat for sitting.
Negative reinforcement: removing a stimulus to increase behavior, such as force fetch.

There.
I like that ! Then I read what Mr Hills said and now I'm confused.:)

In my old university psychology classes , we learned that , " In operant conditioning, positive reinforcement involves the of addition of a reinforcing stimulus following a behavior that makes it more likely that the behavior will occur again in the future. When a favorable outcome, event, or reward occurs after an action, that particular response or behavior will be strengthened." quote

and change the key words for a negative reinforcement.

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by cjhills » Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:23 pm

That makes a little more sense......Cj

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by polmaise » Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:28 pm

Sharon wrote: In my old university psychology classes , we learned that , " In operant conditioning, positive reinforcement involves the of addition of a reinforcing stimulus following a behavior that makes it more likely that the behavior will occur again in the future. When a favorable outcome, event, or reward occurs after an action, that particular response or behavior will be strengthened." quote
Is that the same as "Doing what works" rather than "Doing what works for others" ? :)

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by averageguy » Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:30 am

For those actually looking to learn something, a two second google search of youtube produced this. Many more where this came from.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0eBekc1S4w

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by Sharon » Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:41 pm

That was a great video. Thanks. Years ago I took clicker training classes with my first pup. Everyone laughed and said , "You can't use that in the field." Well no, you can't , but for house training it is very effective and some things transfer over to the field that are taught in the house or back yard ( stay, come, leave it etc..)

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by averageguy » Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:02 pm

Sharon wrote:That was a great video. Thanks. Years ago I took clicker training classes with my first pup. Everyone laughed and said , "You can't use that in the field." Well no, you can't , but for house training it is very effective and some things transfer over to the field that are taught in the house or back yard ( stay, come, leave it etc..)
Very true. As I posted in my Start em Young thread, using marker/treat training is highly effective for teaching Obedience subjects at a very young age.

I teach first with the Clicker and then move to a Praise word when working on subjects requiring two hands e.g. teaching Hold and then a moving retrieve on a bench. The treats are gradually weaned off to using only the Praise word once the desired behavior is engrained. I overlay an ecollar as well so trained behaviors are then proofed and enforceable at a distance or under powerful distractions.

I have also used Marker/Treat methods when introducing new hunting related equipment such as teaching the puppy to enter and lie down in a dog ground blind for hunting waterfowl, jumping up and off of, and then retrieving to and from a Marsh Platform, entering and lying down in the dog pit behind me in my layout boats, jumping into and sitting in my Jon boat or Airboat, teaching the puppy to wear ear muffs and not shake them off their head when riding in the airboat ... Those introductions and training go wonderfully smooth with a happy well motivated puppy.

I also use some marker treat training in my force to pile and blind retrieve handling work keep the puppy motivated when bumpers might otherwise become boring.

It is an extremely powerful way to train which explains how broadly it is used in so many other facets of working dogs. And other animals more broadly.

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by polmaise » Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:19 pm

averageguy wrote: Very true. As I posted in my Start em Young thread, using marker/treat training is highly effective for teaching Obedience subjects at a very young age.

I teach first with the Clicker and then move to a Praise word when working on subjects requiring two hands e.g. teaching Hold and then a moving retrieve on a bench. The treats are gradually weaned off to using only the Praise word once the desired behavior is engrained. I overlay an ecollar as well so trained behaviors are then proofed and enforceable at a distance or under powerful distractions.


I also use some marker treat training in my force to pile and blind retrieve handling work keep the puppy motivated when bumpers might otherwise become boring.

It is an extremely powerful way to train which explains how broadly it is used in so many other facets of working dogs. And other animals more broadly.
Absolutely ! True using a marker /Treat training highly effective for obedience subjects . !
I have however ,over 40 years seen too many dogs looking at the handler rather than the "Game" ...perhaps it is application of the process and No transition ..However , early results of obedience /compliance from a a pup who knows nothing ..Is a Sponge . and looks good.
Tell us more how this transition of Clicker to e-collar from Treat training Force to pile and blind retrieving and handling works to keep the dog motivated ? ..A video would be just fantastic . Thanks .

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by averageguy » Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:55 pm

I pick up alot of things from alot of folks but my approach to ecollar use is mostly based on the ecollar introduction and use as I learned it from Jon Hann at Perfection Kennel.

I use Tri-Tronics/Garmin ecollars which have a huge range of easily varied stimulation levels. When I go to overlay the ecollar on a trained command I use a barely felt level of continuous stimulation starting the moment I give the already trained command and ending the moment the puppy complies with the command. I am teaching the puppy that their compliance is what turns off the stimulation. The level is so low as to just make the dog's ear move up when it it is felt and so it does not hamper the dogs mood or mental state. Once we have that down if and when the puppy/dog were to blow me off, and not comply with the trained command I can increase the stimulation level such that they choose to obey what they already knew to obey.

On the Force to Pile work, my use of marker treats is very simple but I find it helpful none the less. I will give the Marker praise word at a distance when the dog gets a bumper in its mouth at the far end pile and then exchange it for a treat when he sits and delivers in front of me. I will not treat on every run and may not during the entire session if the dog's enthusiasm is staying high without it. The GWPs I work with can get bored with repetitious work and I use the Marker Treat to avoid that as well as I would never attempt the same number of reps that someone working with a high drive retriever breed might.

Similar approach is used in our baseball drills and walking baseball stages of blind retrieve handling.

And I will not hesitate to use dead birds instead of bumpers to keep things more interesting.

On the potential issue of the marker treat training producing too much attention focused on the handler/trainer, I am always looking for balance in developing my puppies/dogs. I take them on nature walks daily and don't ask much of them while doing it. Once Gunfire and birds have been introduced and incorporated into training, I have never had a GWP pup which was not ate up for it, and I have never been more attractive to them than a bird. So I have never experienced what I saw to be a downside of too much focus on me while in the field. If I see a puppy being too dependent on me in the field, I back off, stay silent and ask even less of them until they are behaving more boldly. Not sure if I am relating to your comment accurately or not, but that is my thoughts on it if I am.
Last edited by averageguy on Sat Dec 29, 2018 6:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by polmaise » Sat Dec 29, 2018 6:03 pm

ave guy ...
That pretty sounds like a collar program ..and I am just a limey . :wink:

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by averageguy » Sat Dec 29, 2018 6:17 pm

polmaise wrote:ave guy ...
That pretty sounds like a collar program ..and I am just a limey . :wink:

You will have to elaborate if I am to respond as I am not at all sure what point you may be making. I use an ecollar to proof training which I have already trained using non pressure based methods for the most part. And I use it for the silent tone que to the dog and tracking purposes while hunting.

I teach Whoa away from birds using the marker/treat approach. Work the command in many different situations but not around birds. I overlay the pealess side of my whistle as a Whoa que and get to where I can stop the dog on a run in the field. Then after the pup's first hunting season I combine the Whoa with flown downwind birds to teach steadiness progressing to WSF. That is the area of training where my ecollar is most used - to enforce the Whoa I have trained in many situations using Marker/Treat first; in the presence of birds and then pointed and shot birds.

So yea I have a foot in both worlds and at the moment that is how I have found I obtain my best results. But the puppy stage is heavily dominated with the Marker/treat approach which makes the ecollar overlay phase go really smooth and easy has been my experience.

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by polmaise » Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:16 pm

averageguy wrote:I use an ecollar to proof training which I have already trained using non pressure based methods for the most part.
Allow me to elaborate .
0ne can use tone or lectriticty , even mix them up and look sweet . Still looking for that video of the transition from Treat Training Clicker method and a dog on scent of a bird ..no matter the breed ..or even a Retriever on a blind . That would be real cool man . ? .. Non Collar of course ..because that would be the "Proof" ..In the training ..?.>
Otherwise It would be the collar ..In the Training ..Would it not ?> Just like the treat . :roll: :wink: . ..
Show me . .

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by averageguy » Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:47 pm

I feel I have been clear and honest in describing how I approach my training. Proofing an already trained command is different than teaching the command ahead of that.

I did not take any video of me working the marker treat phase of my training. I have alot of video where we are working birds pointing, steady to WSF, working water and land blinds, basic blind retrieve back and over handling. Most of it shuts off before I give the dog a treat in exchange for a bumper because I was self filming and needed to get rid of the camera and use my hands to do that.

You mention a dog on scent with a bird. I make no use of marker/treat training in bringing out the natural point of my dogs.

I use strong flying pigeons in launchers and exposure to wild birds in silence letting the puppy work them (as I have described elsewhere numerous times). I used marker/treat methods to train whoa and then combined that command with birds as I just described above. Then I used the ecollar to enforce the already trained command in the presence of birds as I also described above.

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by Ouzel » Sun Dec 30, 2018 12:24 am

Good discussion. I’ll just add my two cents about the way I think of PR

You hold a piece of kibble above your dog's nose and watch his head go up and his butt go down and he sits. Immediately you say “yes!" and give him the kibble. You just "lured" him into the sitting position and the "yes" was a “marker” that told him he did good. Every time he hears the word "yes!" he knows he’ll get a treat. So, you repeat the process and after a few more reps you start adding the word "sit" just before luring him with the kibble. Continue to say “yes!” once he sits and reward him. After a few more reps (over maybe a day or two) you don't need the lure - all you have to do is to say "sit" and the dog sits. At this point you don't have to continue to reinforce with food - you just say “sit” because the dog now has a clear understanding of what “sit” means. Later, if you get a refusal to your command “sit” - as in, your dog just “disobeyed a known command” - you’re free to apply negative pressure if you wish. Or food… your choice. Negative pressure might come in the way of yelling at him, swatting his rump, ecollar, etc.

PR teaching works because there is no negative pressure (aversive training) associated with it and the dog enjoys the process. The dog will get plenty of negative pressure in it’s life and he needs to know how to turn it off but just not at the teaching stage. Instead of PR you can push the dog’s butt down and command “sit” and it may take two tries (or ten) but it’s punishing the dog into doing your command.

“Yes!” means to the dog that he’ll get some food and that he just did good! So “marking” a behavior you wish to capture and then reinforcing it with food can be used for lots of training, including fetch, hold, drop, come, stay, heel ,,, whatever. But just because the dog learned to sit on command doesn’t mean he will do it forever anymore than any other thing you’ve taught your dog. All commands need reinforcing.

That's the way with PR. You "mark" any behavior you wish the dog to learn and you positively reinforce it with food. Later you add a command to get him to do it, and then reinforce as necessary. That’s why traditional FF is archaic. You teach it with positive reinforcement and then use the ecollar (or whatever) thereafter. It goes much faster and the dog in engaged throughout.

The above is just a very basic description. Clickers are just another way of marking a behavior . If you choose to learn more about PR (or do it with your own dog) then I’d recommend you get real clear on how it works because you can mark the wrong behavior and have a heck of a time getting rid of it, and some actions require chaining steps together. Check out Michael Ellis’s lectures at Leerburg.

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by Trekmoor » Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:54 am

About 10 - 11 years back I had a young GSP that was giving me "sloppy" and poor deliveries of dummies. I thought I'd try using a clicker and treats to improve the delivery but it went wrong due to bad timing on my part. The deliveries were soon greatly improved but I noticed he was puncturing the canvas dummies with his teeth …..he was biting down hard on them.


I think I "clicked" at the wrong instant in time, I think I clicked during some part of the delivery when he was applying a little bit of pressure to the dummy. - - - I was training my dog to be hard mouthed ! :roll: I stopped all retrieve training for a week or two and when I started it again I did so without the clicks and the treats.
I got lucky ! The dog still did better deliveries but the "bite down" I'd accidentally taught him became an "extinct behaviour."

This incident has made me a bit wary of using clickers , I don't think my timing is good enough.

That particular dog was also trained with the clicker to "present" dummies by standing on his hind legs with his front paws on my chest and then putting the dummy into my mouth ! I messed about with that dog using the clicker far too much so it's a good job that clicker taught behaviours become extinct if no further clicks and treats are given for a particular behaviour.


This would also mean however, that behaviours that you DO want could become "extinct" while out hunting ? Or am I wrong ?


Bill T.

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by averageguy » Sun Dec 30, 2018 6:42 am

Trekmoor wrote:
This would also mean however, that behaviours that you DO want could become "extinct" while out hunting ? Or am I wrong ?


Bill T.
It is simple to keep desired behaviors re-enforced in the field using a marker praise word. So no they do not become extinct.

I transition to the often heard "Good Boy!" and my dog thrives on it. Check out this deliver and note where my boots are. This was on a hunt from last week, 2 years after I taught this dog to Hold using PR. I started that training on a training table using a paint roller. He has a wonderful soft mouth and to this day will deliver live birds to hand still alive. But when we started the Hold training on the table he was very excited and I saw him squeezing the paint roller in his mouth. I switched to a piece of PVC which was too hard for him to squeeze and avoided engraining the problem. The need to pay attention to proper mouth manners while teaching Hold is always present no matter what method of training is being used.

Image

You are certainly correct that good timing is needed with Marker training. But good timing is also critical to using aversive training so there is not route in training that avoids the need for it.

Ouzel, nice post.

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by cjhills » Sun Dec 30, 2018 8:01 am

averageguy wrote:For those actually looking to learn something, a two second google search of youtube produced this. Many more where this came from.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0eBekc1S4w
FWIW. I have Trained with Chad for nearly 20 years and we have had many discussions about training. All I have to say is this, the end results are not better since they have went to click and treat. He does it for Seminars, to get cute videos and quick early results that impress his clients...….Cj

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by averageguy » Sun Dec 30, 2018 8:57 am

cjhills wrote:
averageguy wrote:For those actually looking to learn something, a two second google search of youtube produced this. Many more where this came from.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0eBekc1S4w
FWIW. I have Trained with Chad for nearly 20 years and we have had many discussions about training. All I have to say is this, the end results are not better since they have went to click and treat. He does it for Seminars, to get cute videos and quick early results that impress his clients...….Cj
Yea who is interested in easy quick results in working with their puppies. :roll:

Your opposition to PR is well documented on this board. So be it.

Fortunately so is the huge volume of success training dogs (and birds, whales, dolphins, seals, chickens, horses ...) using PR methods.

Those who want to learn and apply it in their training have no lack of materials on the internet and in DVDs to draw upon and will. And there is nothing that prevents its use in combination with other methods where and as needed. Which is what I do.

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by cjhills » Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:38 am

averageguy wrote:
cjhills wrote:
averageguy wrote:For those actually looking to learn something, a two second google search of youtube produced this. Many more where this came from.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0eBekc1S4w
FWIW. I have Trained with Chad for nearly 20 years and we have had many discussions about training. All I have to say is this, the end results are not better since they have went to click and treat. He does it for Seminars, to get cute videos and quick early results that impress his clients...….Cj
Yea who is interested in easy quick results in working with their puppies. :roll:

Your opposition to PR is well documented on this board. So be it.

Fortunately so is the huge volume of success training dogs (and birds, whales, dolphins, seals, chickens, horses ...) using PR methods.

Those who want to learn and apply it in their training have no lack of materials on the internet and in DVDs to draw upon and will. And there is nothing that prevents its use in combination with other methods where and as needed. Which is what I do.
AG:
Actually, I have no opposition to PR. I have messed around with it for more years than you can imagine. I believe it is a misnomer and used as a gimmick by many trainers and used more to impress clients than train dogs. I do not like seeing a dog read your command before you give it and do it when he sees a treat. It is great for crate training little puppies. I also put pressure on very small puppies by lightly squeezing them when they try to get away and releasing when they stop struggling. I do not know if that is PR or NR. But they learn to give to pressure and will for life.
I also believe if you start with a reasonably talented dog and expose him to birds, any number of methods or no method At all will get good results. I have done this with many dogs.
Most of what you brag about in your dog was put there by the breeder and the results would have been the same if he was started at any age with any decent program. You can teach an old dog new tricks. In nature there is no PR training.
You seem to be a bit defensive. No need for that. I have certainly used a lot of the available material and have had first hand experienc with most of the people whoa have produced it. By your last sentence we can assume You sometimes use NR. We all need tom find our own way and not try topush it on everybody else. ......Cj

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by polmaise » Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:31 am

averageguy wrote: It is simple to keep desired behaviors re-enforced in the field using a marker praise word. So no they do not become extinct.

You are certainly correct that good timing is needed with Marker training. But good timing is also critical to using aversive training so there is not route in training that avoids the need for it.
Using a Marker praise word in the shooting field is not much use when the dog is 300 metres away and a tail wind on Scottish moor . :lol:
The very fact that the word "aversive" is used in a sentence in conjunction with as opposed to "Marker Training" says a lot about the author (imo) ,ie Everything and all other forms of training are wrong/bad/or indigenous to asserting pain or discomfort ,whilst typing eloquently with the given appearance that one is seen as some righteous individual who portrays that they are Non -aversive ,but in reality Is not 100% positive trainer.
..
I have said before ,Marker training .Clicker training,PR ,and all the rest of what ever cliche you tag on dog training is absolutely wonderful for close contact behaviour shaping with any dog in front of you and paying attention to You ! and Yes I use all of that (concept) in early bonding of a Puppy (except the actual clicker) But somewhere down the line I dont want that hunting or flushing dog constantly looking at me ..I want its nose on the deck or in the air Hunting ! and somewhere down the line I want that Retriever walking at my side Looking forward Not looking up at me ! (I leave that to the ones in the obedience Ring on a green beize carpet or dancing with dogs) .
I also believe their are far more Gun Dog Trainers who accept and agree and practice Positive methods that work than there are Gun Dog trainers who bombastically stuff down the throat of others why Clicker Training or Marker Training or Positive enforcement is the saviour of all dogs .
On a Positive note : I train my dogs on the Stop whistle by throwing a tennis ball at them ,they get instant reward if they stop and turn round it goes right in their Gob !
That is My "audible marker" ..PR
On a Negative note : The dog doesnt stop and turn round the first time I do this ? I still throw the tennis ball ,but it hits the dogs back end!
That is still an "audible marker" ..NR
I achieve the end result of the dog stopping on the whistle in both scenarios , But ,it was achieved by using NR first , so that PR could be practised and learned behaviour .
Like any program or method or technique or even terminology ..It works really well when you have a dog that has No past history ----A puppy!..I work extensively with Gun dogs and Gun Dog owners who have already tried or attempted or practised various methods and they all have issues to resolve .
Almost always ,it has never been the method or methods .It has been the application of them . :wink:

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by averageguy » Sun Dec 30, 2018 1:33 pm

CJ, this is at least the 3rd time you have characterized my relaying facts about my past and current success with my dogs as "Bragging" as well as belittling it further as being nothing but my dog's genetics. Your comments in my Start em Young thread, and this one reveal you are not knowledgeable of, nor experienced in the use of PR and my purpose in continuing to comment is for the benefits of others.

Polmaise, I have explained myself clearly and decline to do it again.

Folks there are some 43X persons reading along who have not commented and it is for them and their prospective puppies that I continue to comment. I have had good success with my dogs, but focusing on me is ridiculous. There is a huge body of work, persons and dogs succeeding with using PR as part of their training that anyone willing to look and take note of, can see and verify for themselves.

I posted this in my Start em Young thread but cannot know how many reading this thread will have seen it so I am placing it here as well.

Image

The dog on this cover is a Versatile Champion, UT Prize 1, AFC, SH at the age of 2 years old and was trained using PR methods and no ecollar. Those tests required the dog hunt with brace mate for an hour, backing at all opportunities to do so with no handling, steady to WSF in all facets of the test, do double mark water retrieves, steady by a blind while the handler is out of sight through multiple gunshots, run 200 yard drags with a 90 degree turn out of sight of the handler with one command pickup a duck and return directly to the handler, all shot birds must be delivered to hand, search a swimming depth heavy cover marsh on a blind retrieve send for a released duck for a minimum of 10 minutes with no direction from the handler past the initial send, heel through a series of gates off lead. It is a very high level of training across Obedience, Upland Bird Hunting, Waterfowl and Tracking. The AFC title demonstrates the dog is a high drive dog which will get out and cover ground hunting for birds with speed, range and style.

The same Handler of that dog has trained numerous other GSP to those titles as well as OB, MH, FC and SHR titles using PR and no ecollars on those dogs as well.

The people on this board telling you it cannot be done are wrong. That is not my opinion, it is a fact because it has been done by a growing number of persons.

Most importantly a use of PR with a puppy does not preclude the use of other pressure based methods along the way. Nothing says it has to be 100% of one or the other.

Do your own research and make use of it as you see fit, but do not be unduly dissuaded by the mis-informaton that continues to be posted on this board is my urging to the some 43X folks apparently reading along.

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by polmaise » Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:01 pm

averageguy wrote: There is a huge body of work, persons and dogs succeeding with using PR as part of their training that anyone willing to look and take note of, can see and verify for themselves.
Yup ! and that would be almost every Dog Trainer I have ever met or known in the last 45 years .
I dont know any that has succeeded in either Field competition or in the actual shooting field that has successfully used PR only . :wink: .(Including some that say they have ) ..But it does bring in Bucks ..If you market it to those that like it .

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by averageguy » Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:12 pm

polmaise wrote:
averageguy wrote: There is a huge body of work, persons and dogs succeeding with using PR as part of their training that anyone willing to look and take note of, can see and verify for themselves.
Yup ! and that would be almost every Dog Trainer I have ever met or known in the last 45 years .
I dont know any that has succeeded in either Field competition or in the actual shooting field that has successfully used PR only . :wink: .(Including some that say they have ) ..But it does bring in Bucks ..If you market it to those that like it .
I expect the combination of belittling others repeatedly, denial, and calling some liars will get you through another 45 years making the same claim.

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by polmaise » Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:17 pm

averageguy wrote:
I expect the combination of belittling others repeatedly, denial, and calling some liars will get you through another 45 years making the same claim.
Merry Christmas and a Very Happy New Year :)

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by Trekmoor » Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:20 pm

I know that training a gundog can be done without the use of an e- collar or without F.F. and without even using a check-cord can be done for I don't use any of them with the possible exception of the check -cord for what is usually just one or two quick lessons if I think a particular pup might benefit from a little bit of negative training. It is how almost everyone here trains their gundogs and I know it works well. I just don't think I really need a clicker or a "praise word" to get results though and neither do you to judge from your posts.

In Britain a few retriever trials have now been won by handlers claiming to use "positive only" training methods and I think these people will , eventually, succeed in training some of the rest of us by " winning trials by example." Most trailers are not stupid and if they see a winning "method" they will adopt it ….in order to win ! What I don't think most trailers will do however, is to wholeheartedly embrace "positive only." They will adapt bits of it to fit in with their usual training methods because that is what we, as dog trainers, have always done..... adapt "new methods" to fit in with the old ones in the hope of achieving a better dog ….maybe a trial winning dog.

As far as I am aware no trainer of trial winning spaniels or Hunt-Point-Retriever dogs has ever won a trial here yet using positive only training methods ? Maybe this method does not work quite so well with hard going hunting dogs at distance from the handlers to whom a bird far outweighs any "treat" a handler might offer as an incentive for the dog not to continue hunting or chasing or maybe running-in ?

Bill T.

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by Sharon » Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:48 pm

NOT speaking to ANYONE in particular.
This has always been a controversial subject , but it is controversial methods that make this forum interesting.
Let's treat each other's opinions with respect , please.

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by averageguy » Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:04 pm

Trekmoor wrote: Maybe this method does not work quite so well with hard going hunting dogs at distance from the handlers to whom a bird far outweighs any "treat" a handler might offer as an incentive for the dog not to continue hunting or chasing or maybe running-in ?

Bill T.
The FC and AFC titles on the GSPs I referenced just above evidence there are high drive dogs developed with PR methods working at great distances and succeeding. There are many other working dog venues as well which evidence the same.

I am equally amazed by these accomplishments but rather than deny them or discredit them, I am watching and seeking to learn from them. I do not let my inability to completely duplicate them prevent me from learning more about the Trainers' methods and using them where my dogs and I can succeed in doing so.

My Start em Young thread set this discussion in motion. This thread is a facade on it's title subject.

The video I posted was spot on target for this thread's title subject, yet it was predictably discredited, as was the Trainer. With no accompanying factual observations about what took place in the video but rather just vague disparaging remarks. Which is unfortunately an observable trend by some of the most active commenters on this board.

If a person is going to work with young puppies is it highly advisable to do so with low to no pressure methods and that is where the beauty of PR comes in and it is far broader than just marker/treat training.

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by polmaise » Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:24 pm

Trekmoor wrote:" Most trailers are not stupid and if they see a winning "method" they will adopt it ….in order to win ! What I don't think most trailers will do however, is to wholeheartedly embrace "positive only." They will adapt bits of it to fit in with their usual training methods because that is what we, as dog trainers, have always done..... adapt "new methods" to fit in with the old ones in the hope of achieving a better dog …
As far as I am aware no trainer of trial winning spaniels or Hunt-Point-Retriever dogs has ever won a trial here yet using positive only training methods ? Maybe this method does not work quite so well with hard going hunting dogs at distance from the handlers to whom a bird far outweighs any "treat" a handler might offer as an incentive for the dog not to continue hunting or chasing or maybe running-in ?

Bill T.
Admin probably deleted my initial reply Bill !? ...They most probably think "We were arguing" :lol: or dont like each other :roll: ..Anyhow, More positively ..Dont Ever start Liking me or any of my comments ! ..Just In case someone gets the idea that we ever agree ! :wink: Happy New Year when it comes "Ya auld Git" . Mae yer lum aye reek
Regards
Robert

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by cjhills » Sun Dec 30, 2018 6:33 pm

Sharon wrote:NOT speaking to ANYONE in particular.
This has always been a controversial subject , but it is controversial methods that make this forum interesting.
Let's treat each other's opinions with respect , please.
Sharon;
I started this thread because I really do not know if what most people call PR is actually PR. I have not seen anything to change my mind. I have seen many "click and treat" trainers, who train their dogs to look for a treat and concentrate on the trainer. This is especially easy to see in agility training.
I also feel that we all should have right to disagree and that is what makes a discussion. I do not feel offended by anyone who disagrees with my point of View.
Some people are very good at personal insults. I do not get that we mostly know nothing of each other.
Most people who swear they use only PR. Are simply not telling the truth.
One point I would like to make is about the puppy video. It is cute, fun little video. They breed and sell 100 or more puppies every year, So they are doing something right. Chad is my very good friend we have discuss this many times. To say I was disparaging of him, his training or his dogs is absolutely wrong.....Cj

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by Sharon » Sun Dec 30, 2018 7:46 pm

I hear you, and can definitely say that that little %^&* of a JRT that I have doesn't only get PR :)

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by cjhills » Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:35 pm

Oh By the way AG the perfection kennels DVDs, which I have and use, and you refer to, are by no stretch of the imagination PR.....Cj

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by Trekmoor » Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:54 am

Some years back I heard someone say something I thought had a strong ring of truth to it, it went a bit like this …. " If two dog trainers get together then the only thing they will agree on is that a third trainer, not present , is doing it all wrong !"

This thread reminds me a little of those words ! :lol:

A guid New Year to yin and aw when it comes and Robert …. Lang may yer lum reek and lang may yer fleas bite ! :lol: That folks, is how two Scots wish each other prosperity and a long life ! :lol:


Bill T.

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by averageguy » Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:47 am

cjhills wrote:Oh By the way AG the perfection kennels DVDs, which I have and use, and you refer to, are by no stretch of the imagination PR.....Cj
That would be true. I have learned and borrowed from a lot of sources over the years and continue to do so today (which is why my use of marker/treat training of puppies has ramped up considerably from where I started). I have come up with a few approaches of my own as well such as my early Hunt Dead conditioning work and my snow fence tunnel for young puppy play retrieve conditioning.

I do not train precisely as shown in those DVDs but I recommend them to others as they are the best I have run across and if a newbie trainer will follow them they will stay of trouble for the most part. I expect most of us who have been at it awhile evolve to borrowing from other sources and experimenting on our own a bit. I do and have had success in doing it. And I will seek out help and advice when I need it knowing I am always free to use it or not, as well as it may or may not work well on the particular dog and subject I am working on. The more tools in the bag the more likely I am to find the right one.

If the large group of folks following and reading along wants to learn from a master check out the materials in the link below. Not Gundog specific but the learning and methods have much applicability to working with puppies of any breed for any purpose for those willing to give it a go.

Do not let attempts to distort this discussion with an "Only PR" smoke screen keep you from exploring it's productive use in your training is my advice. I have posted many times in this thread and my Start em Young thread that I do not train with 100% PR and no one trains without some form of correction or pressure at some point. The emphasis of the heavy use of PR in my thread was when working with young puppies when those methods are far superior to the use of force and pressure. A fair reading of my posts make that very clear, despite the smoke screen arguments otherwise.

I urge you to learn and make productive use of PR methods where you find it beneficial, which is what I have done. The fact that many others have taken its use in training high performing Gundogs farther than I have remains significant in my mind and keeps me looking to learn more about it. I never loose sight of the simple fact I can choose to use it or not, and most importantly can switch up methods at any point where my training results with a specific dog suggest I need to .

http://michaelellisschool.com
Last edited by averageguy on Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by polmaise » Mon Dec 31, 2018 11:49 am

Some folk are sounding like "Balanced" Trainers ...as it evolves :)

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by JONOV » Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:14 pm

averageguy wrote:
Do not let attempts to distort this discussion with an "Only PR" smoke screen
That's the thing....People seem to use it to pigeonhole others. They assume it automatically assumes a Fenzi-like philosophy on dog training.

I remember a training day hosted by our NAVHDA chapter. A Pro trainer, and former VDD Judge steps up for a lecture, and with an evil smile brings out a clicker. Does he force-fetch his dogs? Heck yes. Does he use PR as far as it will take him? Of course. Does it take him as far with some dogs as it does with others? That I can't answer. Does he have to balance the practical aspects, of delivering a solid product to clients in an efficient amount of time? I can't answer that either.

My question, when I see a trainer like the on on the copy of the VHD magazine, isn't how she trains or accomplishes that level of finish. I've seen enough trainers and dogs and methods and the finished product to know there's more than one way to Tipperary. My question how she manages in a world with roads, cars, deer, jackrabbits, and the neighbors free-ranged cat.

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by averageguy » Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:15 pm

Yea, I understand that JONOV. I love my ecollar for a lot of reasons. Was hunting this morning while a truck prowled up and down the road. Apparently a road hunting deer hunter. Being able to silently tone my dog in when we got close to the road was nice. As was keeping him honest when a coyote jumped up and ran past me at close range.

And the silent part paid off in bagging a trophy public lands long spurred rooster than would have no doubt flushed wild had I hit a whistle instead of the ecollar tone.

Image
Last edited by averageguy on Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by averageguy » Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:22 pm

So an innovative Friend posted video this morning. He has continued to evolve and grow in working with his dogs and come to really embrace PR based training including attending Michael Ellis' seminars. He has been working on the approach he discusses in this video for some time. He and I have had discussions along the way and my use of PR has increased as a result of it. In the video he mentions some of his credentials but leaves out the several UT1 and VC titles he has accomplished on several of his past and current dogs.

A great example of what being willing to try new approaches can accomplish.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMJv8NMd0Z8

I should add he also trained this PP to fetch sit and deliver to hand before it was 4 months old using PR. And he has the youngest Versatile Champion WPG in history.

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by polmaise » Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:37 pm

AG ..Uses an e- Collar ??? ..Shock horror , help ma boab ! :lol:
You can see where the PR and balance can come as one . ...Well it is to re-enforce Known commands ..Right ?
And it is Right .

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by averageguy » Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:43 pm

Surely you have not missed the 7 or 8 times prior I have mentioned my use of an ecollar to enforce already trained commands at a distance?

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by polmaise » Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:11 pm

averageguy wrote:Surely you have not missed the 7 or 8 times prior I have mentioned my use of an ecollar to enforce already trained commands at a distance?
I rarely follow each and every post from anyone . Much like most I would imagine ?..
I only react to ones that are relevant in Time ..and In my time . ..btw Have a very Happy New Year ..and try Not to get so Hot when others call you on what you post :wink:
Most of the time ..Most Dawg folk are really having a good time on here 8) :lol:

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by averageguy » Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:19 pm

polmaise wrote:
averageguy wrote:Surely you have not missed the 7 or 8 times prior I have mentioned my use of an ecollar to enforce already trained commands at a distance?
I rarely follow each and every post from anyone . Much like most I would imagine ?..
I only react to ones that are relevant in Time ..and In my time . ..btw Have a very Happy New Year ..and try Not to get so Hot when others call you on what you post :wink:
Most of the time ..Most Dawg folk are really having a good time on here 8) :lol:
I will do that Robert. See ya next year.

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Re: Positive enforcement

Post by mnaj_springer » Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:22 pm

cjhills wrote:
mnaj_springer wrote:Here it is from a psychological perspective... reinforcement increases behavior. Punishment reduces a behavior. Positive means adding a stimulus. Negative means you remove a stimulus.

Positive reinforcement: adding a stimulus to increase behavior, such as a treat for sitting.
Negative reinforcement: removing a stimulus to increase behavior, such as force fetch.

There.
So, by your explanation, the ear pinching in force fetch is positive and stopping it is negative. Makes no sense to me. If I wanted my dog to run faster kicking him in the butt is positive? Pretty sure my dog would think it was negative and so would I...….Cj
The ear pinch is negative reinforcement, as my first post stated. You increase fetch and hold (the behavior) by removing the painful ear pinch (the stimulus). The removal of the stimulus is key.

In a reinforcement/conditioning sense, the words positive, negative, reinforcement, and punishment. Have less to do with internal enjoyment and more to do with how a stimulus is used to change behavior.

For example, smacking a dog across the noise for nipping is positive punishment (adding a stimulus to reduce a behavior), and ignoring a barking dog is a negative punishment (removing attention to reduce barking behavior).

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