Understanding Pedigree Titles and Trials

Post Reply
Jhawk
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:14 pm

Understanding Pedigree Titles and Trials

Post by Jhawk » Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:45 pm

I don’t have any experience with field trials or hunt tests and my exposure is limited to attending one NSTRA event as a spectator about 20 years ago. When I try and research hunt tests, field trials and pedigree titles, almost all the information is written by people in the know and this makes it difficult to interpret what I am reading. Is there a source that does a good job of outlining the different field trials and hunt tests that are out there and what the titles mean on a dog’s pedigree?

I delayed purchasing a Brittany pup last year and I’m hoping to get one in 2019. I have a few breeders I am looking at and when I look at the pedigrees I can see all the titles, but they don’t really mean much to me. I have a list of what the tiles are, but other than a bunch of abbreviations in front of a dog’s name, I don’t know it is saying. If I see a dog is a FC or NFC, I know it’s a field champion or national field champion, or JH or MH is junior hunter or master hunter, but what does it take to earn these titles?

I think the bird dog world is like anything else in that it can be difficult to understand if you are totally new. I am interested in learning more about hunt tests or field trialing down the road but right now I would like this information to help me understand a prospective pups pedigree.

Thanks in advance for your help and I apologize to the regulars if this is a reoccurring question.

User avatar
greg jacobs
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 890
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:04 am
Location: selah washington

Re: Understanding Pedigree Titles and Trials

Post by greg jacobs » Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:43 pm

Hunt tests
JH- Junior hunter isn't much. Don't think they have to be steady to wing shot fall.
SH - senior hunter. Has to be steady, handle well, retrieve to hand. Harder to get
MH - Master Hunter. All the above but with more style.
Navhda
NA - natural ability test. puppy stuff. Doesn't mean much.
Utility - like SH plus a bunch of water work. Quite a bit of work involved.
VC - versatile champion.hard to get includes double retrieved.
Both of these are against a standard.
Field Trials
FC - field champion. This is with a pro handling the dog
AFC - amateur field champion. Usually the owner handling the dog
NFC national field champion. Has to win a national trial.
Field Trials are competing against the other dogs not against a standard. Dogs have to find birds, be steady to wing shot and fall. And do it with style and speed. This can be handled off horseback or can be a walking trial. Different classes for bigger and not as big running dogs.

User avatar
greg jacobs
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 890
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:04 am
Location: selah washington

Re: Understanding Pedigree Titles and Trials

Post by greg jacobs » Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:08 pm

This can get pretty controversial but my opinion is most people that want a dog for foot hunting is probably better off with Master Hunters and Versatile champions in the pedigree. If you want some horsepower for the Prairies you can look at Field trial champions. The average hunter that doesn't train much may struggle with FC blood from AA dogs which is big running horseback dogs. Just my opinion.

birddogger2
Rank: 3X Champion
Posts: 544
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:15 am
Location: Lower slower Delaware

Re: Understanding Pedigree Titles and Trials

Post by birddogger2 » Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:28 pm

As far as field trials go, there are two organizations that sanction them. One is American Kennel Club(AKC) and the other is American Field(AF).

Since you are apparently looking at Brittanys, the AKC trials are the ones you would want to know about, I think. The exact rules are somewhat complicated, but I will give you the general gist.

To attain field championship(FC) status, or Amateur field championship(AFC) the requirements are similar. The dog must acquire a total of ten(10) points in open (for FC) or amateur(for AFC)competitions. The number of points awarded varies by the number of dogs entered. The more dogs, the higher the points. The dog must place in at least 3 different events and one of the events must have enough competing dogs to have 3 points awarded for first place.

In general to attain championship status, a dog will have had to beat something on the order of 60 dogs overall.

Trials are always conducted in brace fashion...two dogs, two handlers, two judges and usually two scouts. The dogs are released and must hunt and handle for their handler over a defined course. Minimum length of time for an adult course is 30 minutes. Trials may be run with handlers walking only or, more often, with the option of following the dogs on horseback. In either case, the judges are usually mounted.

There are puppy and derby stakes where the dogs have age limits. For adult dogs there are Gun Dog stakes and All Age stakes. The type of performance expected in an all age stake is typically one where the dogs will run to the limits of the course, while a typical Gun Dog performance will be still quite ambitious, but much closer to what you might see in the hunting field.

This is only a thumbnail sketch and there is a lot more to it.

Whether you field trial or test, or not... one thing is an absolute certainty. You will see more dogs doing more things in a typical day of field trialing, than you will see in a typical month of hunting.

Read up on the tests and trials. The AKC has the rulebook for pointing dog trials on its website. It is all there. I encourage folks to go and see a trial or a test. You may not know just what is going on, but you will almost certainly see some nice dogs performing, and that is what it is all about. The AKC also has a searchable event calendar where all the upcoming tests and trials are listed, several months in advance.

RayG

RayG

shags
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2717
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:57 pm

Re: Understanding Pedigree Titles and Trials

Post by shags » Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:24 pm

To the best of my knowlege, the different competition sanctioning bodies do not recognize titles from other sanctioning bodies so those titles won't be on a pedigree issued by one or another. Like, an AKC pedigree won't have any NSTRA champions noted, and American Field won't have AKC field champions ,etc.

So, ask your breeder in what format dogs in their lines have titled, then look up the requirements for those titles on the sanctioning organization's website. Probably because you don't have much experiemce with performance events, reading information will be clear as mud but you should get a decent idea of what is required of the dogs.

Off the top of my head there's AKC, AFTCA, NSTRA, NAVHDA, US Complete, UFTA, UKC. IME it's best to not rely entirely on letters by a dog's name in pedigrees when choosing a breeding...it's important info and IMO gives you better odds at getting a good pup, but it's not the be all end all. See the parents work, or see dogs of like lines work, to get an idea of what's in store. Lots of really nice dogs never title, and plenty of mediocre ones manage to scratch up wins or placements, or passing test scores.

Good luck in looking...lotsa fun in puppy shopping.

User avatar
Dakotazeb
Rank: 4X Champion
Posts: 671
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2014 1:10 pm
Location: South Dakota / Arizona

Re: Understanding Pedigree Titles and Trials

Post by Dakotazeb » Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:48 am

greg jacobs wrote:This can get pretty controversial but my opinion is most people that want a dog for foot hunting is probably better off with Master Hunters and Versatile champions in the pedigree. If you want some horsepower for the Prairies you can look at Field trial champions. The average hunter that doesn't train much may struggle with FC blood from AA dogs which is big running horseback dogs. Just my opinion.
I would pretty much agree with Greg. I have a 2 year old female Brittany that has a tremendous pedigree out of AKC horseback trial dogs. She is an extremely big runner and I'm not sure she is ever going to make a real good pheasant dog. I guess time will tell as she get older and more experience. Yes, you can reign in a big running dog to some extend but it's difficult especially if you also plan to trial them. I run NSTRA trials and I think she has the potential to be a NSTRA Champion once I get her steadied up a little more. She's 33 lbs. of blazing speed with an engine that won't quit.

cjhills
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2529
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:37 am
Location: aitkin,mn

Re: Understanding Pedigree Titles and Trials

Post by cjhills » Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:51 am

It is not really are occurring question. I am impressed that you asked. Many people buy a puppy from titled parents with no idea what the title is about.
Shags is pretty much right on.
Generally performance titles are after the name and show titles are before the name. Brittany's have more Dual Champions than other breeds. DC before the name. These Dogs are Show and field trial champions. The Brittany club has breed specific shows and trials.
Most Of the non AKC or AF events, except NAVHDA are pretty much focused on one thing, Such has which dog finds the most birds the quickest.
Titles are of little value unless you have at least a basic knowledge of what kind of performance is expected of the dogs in the event. You are right it is difficult to understand what is going on sometimes. It is hard to watch a field trial and see anything but dogs running around especially horseback trials. You can generally rent or borrow a horse and ride with the gallery.
Don't expect to learn a lot but it will be interesting. I have watched a lot of trials and run dogs in a few, Frankly, I still find them intimidated and don't get it. Hunt test area little more Beginner friendly and easier to understand. Plus the handlers walk. Some test have a Gallery Wagon so the spectators can ride.

Keep an Open mind and beware of the people that want to sell you something. A lot to learn. It is all good...…. Cj.

birddogger2
Rank: 3X Champion
Posts: 544
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:15 am
Location: Lower slower Delaware

Re: Understanding Pedigree Titles and Trials

Post by birddogger2 » Sat Dec 22, 2018 1:10 pm

jHawk -

I think the absolute key to your puppy search is to clearly define what you want to have in an adult dog...at least in your own mind.

Once you have a clear picture of what your wants and needs are, you can start looking for that in the various breeders.

As far as breeds go, there is a HUGE variation in the abilities and tendencies of field bred Brittanys. They go from dogs that can run a true all age race in front of a horse, to those who will virtually never get out of your sight...and pretty much everything in between.

My brother in law raised field bred Brittanys for many years before he gave it up. His foundation stock was successful in the show ring, but also did a fine job in the field. As mentioned, Brittanys do have a large number of dual champions. My BIL's focus was to breed show quality companion dogs that were good hunters. He tested several of his dogs and got a couple of Senior Hunter passes on a few of them. probably would have gotten more ,but his legs gave out on him. His dogs tended to be nice, closer working dogs, but interestingly, he whelped a pup that went on to become an AKC field champion horseback Gun Dog under the guidance of a field trialer and that dog's sire was strictly a show dog, and a very successful one at that. But that SOB could run a lick and HUNT. Walker(the sire) was as good a hunter as you could want.

We constantly argued about field performance, as he preferred a closer working Britt to my much wider ranging pointers. But it was fun to hunt them together. Between them, they didn't miss much.

RayG

User avatar
Featherfinder
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 934
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 3:15 pm

Re: Understanding Pedigree Titles and Trials

Post by Featherfinder » Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:33 am

I think great points made by many here! The key is to make your own aspirations transparently clear and not to get caught up in an unrealistic or "dream intent" versus what you will actually being working your dog. Be honest with yourself. It will go a long way for many years to come.
There is a lot of content in the responses here-in. I would only add that, cover trials (run on foot and on wild birds usually grouse) bring with them another dimension. Having a dog that can find AND show said find(s) to a judge and entourage is a true measure of a bird dog...in my opinion. These trials are dominated by setters and pointers but there are a few short tails that are competitive in this venue as well.
The crucial aspect of the gun dog, is that it should work practically to the gun ( typically a walking owner/handler). Dogs that are bred to be co-operative in their efforts typically make decent gun dogs. The more independent work ethic serves horseback trial venues. If you misread a pedigree and end up with a dog that would rather work for itself rather than with you, you will spend most of your hunting escapades hunting dog rather than birds. These same pups CAN make gun dogs if started properly and at a young enough age. If started in "the typical" manner, they are a dog that will have you frustrated more often than elated for many many years.
A very meaningful aspect of your decision - one not yet touched upon - is your personal strategy for training. Will you be the trainer that is looking for a "meat dog" (typically less concerned about how it all unfolds - measured by how many shots are fired) or are you planning to make a significant investment in a fully pro-trained finished bird dog? There exists a huge cavernous spectrum between these two options as well.
My latest addition is a BIG ENGINE pointer beatch with no less than 8 H.O.F. dogs in here pedigree. She is nothing short of delightful! She works with me to find birds with little to no intervention on my part - far enough/fast enough to peg them - close enough for them to be there when I arrive. She choses to be reliably steady, for us both. She retrieves to hand from land or water. She is 14 months old and her recent season on wild Huns, sharptail, Bobwhite is what dreams are made of.
Know yourself. Choose wisely/realistically. Commit, rather than settle.

User avatar
oldbeek
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 766
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2014 8:47 pm
Location: Lancaster CA

Re: Understanding Pedigree Titles and Trials

Post by oldbeek » Mon Dec 24, 2018 11:30 pm

Another thing in researching a pedigree. My current Brittany is from some HOF dogs. The grand sire had an amazing title at 24 months old. I was very impressed. After I bought the new pup, I found that Grand sire Peter Gunn had been in 96 trials in 24 months. It is not all about the titles but how did the dog get them. My dog turned out to be fantastic. I personally feel a good NSTRA dog will make a great hunting dog. I would visit your local NSTRA trials to see dogs in action. NSTRA.org site has all the judging criteria for a nstra trial. Some AKC trials, your dog is competing with 6 other dogs. Minimum dogs in a nstra trial is 22, and most are 26 to 28. Getting a first out of 26 dogs is not done by luck alone. that would get you 3 points. It takes 20 points to be a nstra champion.

averageguy
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 970
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:07 am

Re: Understanding Pedigree Titles and Trials

Post by averageguy » Tue Dec 25, 2018 6:59 am

The two dogs that matter most in the pedigree are the Sire and Dam of the litter. Ignore the dogs further back for the most part, get a look at those two dogs and determine if a potential dog which performs in a similar manner is what you are looking for. Nothing wrong with titles on prior generations, and a long history of health screenings for multiple generations is a must for me, e.g. hips, thyroid (OFA Rating or Penn Hip scores).

The genetics of the dogs producing the litter matter most and those two dogs provide the best evidence of whether prior generation genetics bred through, or not, and then are likely to show up in the puppies, or not. The best breeding programs have generations of strong performing dogs behind them, but what I am cautioning against is a mis-guided focus on a HOF dog which got bred alot further back in the pedigree with subsequent closer up offspring in the pedigree not being of similar quality. That happens a lot.

Looking at littermates to the Sire and Dam of the litter is also excellent information as dogs from an overall strong performing litter on the whole provide further excellent information as to their genetic strengths and consistency. Great trainers can make average dogs look good and many dogs never reach their potential working under poor trainers. Performance across a litter tends to even out those highs and lows.

When I say "looking at" I mean observing the dogs in person while hunting as the ultimate ideal. Which may or may not be possible. Some of the testing organizations have databases which can be searched on a computer and a great deal of information gathered from it. My dog's sire and dam can be searched for all NAVHDA tests they have been entered in and all the offspring they have produced can be as well. All the Sire and Dam littermates can be searched and their test results or absence thereof revealed. The Kennel name of the Breeder that produced them can be searched for the same. The timeframes of the search can be specified so more recent trends vs achievements from 15 years ago can be focused in on.

Well worth using the tools in that manner to compliment some eyes on observations as the bigger trend of a Breeder's product comes to light.

Jhawk
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:14 pm

Re: Understanding Pedigree Titles and Trials

Post by Jhawk » Wed Dec 26, 2018 3:54 pm

Thank you everyone for the time spent replying to my post.

Greg, this is exactly the information I was looking for. Thank you.

I live in central KS and hunt pheasants and quail. Quail numbers have been much better than quail the past few years, but I will always chase pheasants. I will not send this dog to a trainer and I will do the best I can on my own. Also, this dog will be an indoor dog.

One thing that has me confused is the crossover between wild bird hunting and field trial dogs. I have never hunted over a dog that field trials or a professionally trained dog, but I would think that a dog that ranges far enough to be competitive in a field trial would be a detriment hunting pheasants in particular. Is it just the training these dogs have or am I missing something?

Thanks,

User avatar
oldbeek
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 766
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2014 8:47 pm
Location: Lancaster CA

Re: Understanding Pedigree Titles and Trials

Post by oldbeek » Wed Dec 26, 2018 9:13 pm

That depends how smart the dog becomes. When my present dog is scenting birds are near, she creeps and works slow and close. Sometimes hits point to let me know birds are near right off the tailgate. Then gives me time to get ready to go into the field. When released she slinks into the field. No bird scent and she is ranging out there at 10 mph. I can take no credit for her actions. Been that way since 1 yr old.

RyanDoolittle
Rank: Champion
Posts: 301
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 11:39 pm

Re: Understanding Pedigree Titles and Trials

Post by RyanDoolittle » Thu Dec 27, 2018 8:09 am

Jhawk the dogs know the difference between field trialing and hunting. They adjust their range and pattern accordingly.

That being said dont go out, buy and All-Age dog and expect him to hunt 100 yards. Look at NSTRA or Gun Dog lines and you will be very happy.

I had the #1 young dog in Canada (CKC) back in 2014 or 2015 and we shot a ton of pheasants over him. My Current dog is a big running prairie shooting dog or eastern All-Age dog, his hunting style is different and he is a handful to keep inside 250 yards on foot but I have shot a bunch of pheasants over him as well. I find he is better suited to hunting the wide open rather than the thick cattails we usually find them. He sure is fun to chase sharptails and huns on horseback with.

User avatar
Featherfinder
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 934
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 3:15 pm

Re: Understanding Pedigree Titles and Trials

Post by Featherfinder » Thu Dec 27, 2018 8:15 am

Jhawk, that is a super question! I used to trial my hunting dogs which came from HOT trial lines. The difference back then was that I was much younger, had no children and had the time to help the dog(s) learn the difference. And yes....there is a BIG difference between a competitive trial dog and say....a grouse dog - even a KS wild bird dog. My dogs LEARNED that around horses, the crowds, with the absence of a long gun, with the bracing, and with the scents and sounds, the habitat, etc. we were trialing. They also gathered that without the horses, the brace-mate, and with me carrying the long gun, the habitat, etc. we were bird hunting. Here is the thing. Do you have the time/where-with-all to train for both? If so, your dog can do it! Your appropriately bred dog is most assuredly capable but if there is a significant diversity in trial expectations versus hunting goals you have some work to do. If you live on the prairies (both trial and hunt there), you still have a difference in the application of a gun dog versus a trialer. It is more subtle thereby making it even harder for your dog to learn the differences. In KS, the typical productive habitat surrounds itself with open milo fields, tree lines, (barbed wire) fences, etc. To be productive, your trial dog would have to reel in significantly when hunted, while maintaining the fast pace. Pace is HUGE in a productive wild bird dog. It isn't about how fast it finds the birds. It's about HOW it comes upon wild birds that buys you some time to approach within a productive range. Does your dog have the nose to keep pace with its pace? If so, you have the real deal!
In the trials, you need a dog that is less dependent on the handler thereby having the range from the handler the judges will be looking for while staying always to the front. This trial dog, without....shall we call it "gun dog" savvy, will assuredly find birds in KS, however he/she will be SO far out that when you find him/her it is unlikely the quail will still be there and I can assure you, the pheasant will NOT.
In summary, yes you can have both if you are willing to put in the time to help your dog understand the differences in expectation.
As an aside, I train my dogs to be completely steady even when hunting. Some folk allow this to slip while hunting so that the dog can retrieve, then expect the trial dog to remain steady during the trial competition. Yes....this too can be done but it is SO much more work than just helping the dog understand that steady means steady....period.
P.S. There is no retrieving in a typical pointing breed trial.

birddogger2
Rank: 3X Champion
Posts: 544
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:15 am
Location: Lower slower Delaware

Re: Understanding Pedigree Titles and Trials

Post by birddogger2 » Thu Dec 27, 2018 8:55 am

Jhawk wrote:Thank you everyone for the time spent replying to my post.

Greg, this is exactly the information I was looking for. Thank you.

I live in central KS and hunt pheasants and quail. Quail numbers have been much better than quail the past few years, but I will always chase pheasants. I will not send this dog to a trainer and I will do the best I can on my own. Also, this dog will be an indoor dog.

One thing that has me confused is the crossover between wild bird hunting and field trial dogs. I have never hunted over a dog that field trials or a professionally trained dog, but I would think that a dog that ranges far enough to be competitive in a field trial would be a detriment hunting pheasants in particular. Is it just the training these dogs have or am I missing something?

Thanks,
My dogs are trained to run a wide shooting dog race in front of horses. I can give you another vote for hunting over trial dogs. I do it all the time because that is what I have. In actuality, I typically hunt on preserves(because that I all there is in my area)...so the dogs have to adjust even more. Hunting in the wide open areas of KS should be much less of an adjustment for the dogs.

I do hunt my dogs with e-collars on...just in case, but honestly, I have to use them only rarely. My dogs wear e-collars, pretty much any time they are out...unless they are actively competing in a field trial. That is just what I do and how I do it.

As has been said, the dogs do understand that it is a different game when the shotgun comes out. Most of my guys learn very quickly to suck it in and hunt MUCH closer to a walking hunter. But it can be a challenge and some of my guys... simply put...ain't for the faint of heart and would probably not be the best choice for an inexperienced trainer.

Now I will say that hunting wild pheasants is a special challenge for a bird dog because of their propensity to run out from under a dog and flush wild, well beyond gun range. Some dogs learn to handle them...some never really do, but that has nothing to do with whether or not you trial the dog.

I would agree that a dog from NSTRA or USCSDA or grouse lines might make a better candidate for the walking bird hunter, due to the fact that these dogs must compete in front of a walking handler, which means they have to adjust their pattern and range to accommodate the walking handler's slower pace. A USCSDA or other walking dog that is out of sight of the handler and judges for most of its brace...ain't gonna win much. You need to see the dog.

I believe also, that dogs from successful practitioners of any of these walking venues will have plenty of horsepower for even the most demanding hunter.

RayG

averageguy
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 970
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:07 am

Re: Understanding Pedigree Titles and Trials

Post by averageguy » Thu Dec 27, 2018 12:24 pm

JHawk, you have asked a great question and gotten some very good responses. I find a lot of honesty in FF's response. Dogs that range big will find birds. Many of those birds will be gone by the time a foot hunter walks to the dog when the dog is operating at ranges that win FTs. To be an excellent wild quail and pheasant dog in Central Ks will require a dog that gets to hunt those wild birds in that terrain enough to adapt.

My Wife is from a farm in Central Ks and I have hunted that area of the state a great deal for decades. Hunted there this past week.

Wild Pheasants with some hunting pressure are going to put a pointing dog to the test and a certain amount of failure comes with the territory. Particularly in the late season when hens hold and most of the few remaining roosters do not. Hunting warm season grass next to grain is consistently where my GWPs have been able to pin enough roosters down to get quality dog work and shooting. In SD it is often cattail sloughs or Kochia weed patches. No dog ranging at a long distance in those covers is an advantage is my experience.

My current dog, and those prior, have done very nice work on both bobwhites and roosters (and more), but none of them could consistently beat a quail dog specialist at their specialty. My dog adjusts to cover nicely and will naturally range out in the hedge row, and draws around ag fields when hunting quail and tighten up much closer in the cattails and tall heavy CRP where we have our best success hunting roosters. He is trained to come in to the tone on the ecollar and I have GPS to locate him in heavy cover when on point out of sight, so we can hunt in silence. I also admit to doing some silent hacking on him with the ecollar tone at times to keep him closer in as we approach a likely heavy cover area for roosters so that I am closer to the dog when he gets one pinned down, which dramatically increases the odds I can get into decent shotgun range before the rooster vacates.

On hunts where our focus is primarily Bobwhites I let my dogs roll and they adapt to it quickly. I find a dog actively hunting for birds, making good use it's nose running an intelligent ground pattern relative to the cover likely to be holding birds is far more important than is the absolute range of the dog while doing it. My GWPs are generally within 200 yards in the typical Central Ks quail covers and often within 100 yards. (People who do not use GPS on their dogs consistently overstate the ranges of their dogs is my observation as a related aside comment.) My GWPs are always hunting hard averaging over 10 MPH (per the Garmin Alpha) over the course of a hunt.

My current dog and I have hunted in Ks and Tx each year on excellent private ranches with a Pro String of EPs. We hunt my dog alone and with their dogs in the cooler mornings and evenings, and run the EP specialists in the heat of the day. My dog finds birds at the same rate as the better dogs in those strings. He is head and shoulders above all of those dogs for hunting dead and retrieving to hand. Two of the 3 Pros we have hunted with do not even train their dogs to hunt dead or retrieve at all.

Two of these Pro Strings run in Cover Trials and I hunted with the National Champion last year in TX which was a setter dog. He did some outstanding work on the wild bobwhites displaying a very keen nose and excellent ground pattern, but he also had as many unproductive points as productive ones (birds could have easily been running and likely were in many cases). His owner pretty much never shoots birds over the dog as he wants the dog to be conditioned to stand vs retrieve when birds fly. I was on my own when I knocked down a bird and my GWP was not also on the ground at the time.

The bird numbers on the ranch I hunted in Tx in Feb 2017 were the highest I have experienced in 50 years of hunting wild Bobwhites. I was able to hunt with the Mother of, and Half Sister, to the dog which took runner-up at AMES that year. Both were outstanding wild quail dogs with the Mother being in the running for the best I have hunted over for Quail. The birds were so thick that it was uncommon for any of those EPs to be past 100 yards before they were on point, that year. Last season was the opposite for bird numbers due the combination of eye worms and drought. Those same dogs were ranging to 400 yards in Tx brush country looking for birds which were hard to find and even harder to hold due to having been hunted too much before we arrived.

Which brings up a critical point in my experience. Some dogs run to run. Good and great dogs run to find birds and stop running when they do.

It takes giving a dog hunting opportunities to arrive at the later.

If you acquire a puppy from too hot a strain of FT dogs you will likely spend at least your first season with some challenges but with patience and perseverance on your part it might turn out to be something special. I would look for a puppy from dogs which naturally hunt in the style and range you want your finished dog to hunt within. Plenty of them around.

birddogger2
Rank: 3X Champion
Posts: 544
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:15 am
Location: Lower slower Delaware

Re: Understanding Pedigree Titles and Trials

Post by birddogger2 » Thu Dec 27, 2018 1:37 pm

jHawk -

There are a LOT of very nice bird dogs out there. There are multiple breeds that can get the job done in the pointing dog world. The big four are English Pointer, German Shorthaired Pointer, English Setter and Brittany. The reason why I say big four is because the dogs in these four breeds vastly outnumber those of any of the other pointing or versatile breeds.

In practical terms, that means you can actually find a puppy from one of these four breeds, when you are ready for the youngster, and not have to wait months or a year on a waiting list. Typically it also means that a puppy from one of these four breeds will be significantly less expensive than pups from a less popular breed.

It is also a fact that these four breeds have the highest representation in field trials and AKC hunt tests. There are simply more of them doing those types of competitions than just about all the other pointing or versatile breeds put together.

Navhda testing does require water work, tracking and retrieving, so the participants of these tests are predominantly versatile dogs , with the GSP again, being heavily represented.

I feel that, for most folks, it is easier for them to stick to the big four, as the odds of them getting a very nice, very serviceable hunting dog go up with the number of quality field dogs available.

As an example, I purchased my last pup, three years ago. The dam was a winning grouse trial dog. The sire is a multiple champion who had won the National Open Shooting Dog Championship and was second in the points competition for Shooting dog of the Year in another year. The pup cost $800 and several of them were purchased by grouse hunters. A well bred pup from many of the less popular breeds will set you back twice that and perhaps more. The best breeding from some versatile breeds can be more than that with a two year wait.

Oh and that pup, with that kind of breeding, has multiple field trial placements in horseback stakes and he hunts just fine on a preserve. He actually comes back around for me when I am not moving fast enough on foot.

FWIW, to address retrieving tendencies, I have seen very few dogs that, if exposed to it as pups, would not retrieve. Most dogs LOVE to wrap their gums around a bird. I am one of those folks who do not encourage my dogs to retrieve, simply because they are not required to retrieve in the trials I compete in. The fact is that the dogs are expected to stand high and tight until heeled away, long after the flush and shot, so the desire to retrieve can cause them to get into trouble in that kind of field trial. In the past, when the dog was only asked to hunt, not field trial, I never had a problem with my pointers retrieving on dry land. In water...there were occasionally issues, but not on dry land.

Now...pointers typically do not WANT to hunt dead. That is a fact. Some breeds, especially versatiles, are much more ready and willing to put their noses to the ground and work out scent. Pointers very much prefer to head out and find a new bird to point. But I HATE losing shot birds. If the dogs are properly indoctrinated, they understand that they are not going to be allowed to run and hunt...until they come up with that downed bird. I will hunt the dog(s) in the area of the downed bird...until it is found. Mine know that...and they generally do their best imitation of a Hoover and find downed birds pretty quickly, so they can get back to doing what they love...which is running and hunting.

Lots of ways to get from here to there with a bird dog. Most all of them are waaay too much fun.

RayG

User avatar
oldbeek
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 766
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2014 8:47 pm
Location: Lancaster CA

Re: Understanding Pedigree Titles and Trials

Post by oldbeek » Thu Dec 27, 2018 1:44 pm

The last line in Averageguys post are so true. Last year we had 2 young GSPs with just basic training. We had huge numbers of quail on a private ranch. Covey after covey on 2,000 acres. We just let the pups make mistakes and learn. By end of season the were much more experienced.

averageguy
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 970
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:07 am

Re: Understanding Pedigree Titles and Trials

Post by averageguy » Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:28 am

Jhawk,

Your OP indicates you are looking for a Brittany. I have hunted alot with a few of them and a little with quite a few of them. The good ones are very capable dogs for the hunting interests you indicated. I have seen several that turned out very well for their first time gundog owners. Dogs which stayed busy, handled easy, found and pointed their share of birds and hunted dead and retrieved well. They were relatively close ranging dogs and required little training to perform in this manner.

I have also seen some horrible mismatches between really hot big running GSPs, Brittanys, and EPs and first time dog owners who struggled mightily to get a handle on those dogs and never did.

Word to the Wise on that.

As to range. There is a big difference in hunting This.

Image

And This.

Image

One size does not fit all and as you sort through the input you receive and dogs you research, keep in mind the terrain and birds you will hunt most.

User avatar
Sharon
GDF Junkie
Posts: 9113
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 4:46 pm
Location: Ontario,Canada

Re: Understanding Pedigree Titles and Trials

Post by Sharon » Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:16 pm

Exactly . That sure needed to be pointed out.

Post Reply