English Setter Confusion

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isonychia
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English Setter Confusion

Post by isonychia » Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:22 pm

Can someone involved with the ES world break a few things down for me? I have been looking into NSTRA and NAVDHA line setters but still have some questions. Is any one line (IE Ryman or Llewellin) better at either of these venues or is it a crap shoot? Obviously looking at the pedigrees from a less subjective approach and thinking of the current breeders individually is always the best approach but I am curious. Also, what is the opposite of a cover setter and what are the major differences? I love the idea about dogs bred to compete on wild birds, IMHO wild birds or bust (this is an increasingly depressing situation across the US).

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Re: English Setter Confusion

Post by Sharon » Mon Dec 31, 2018 6:17 pm

" Is any one line (IE Ryman or Llewellin) better at either of these venues ?" .............No imo.....I doubt a true Llewellin is even available now.

" What is the opposite of a cover setter and what are the major differences?"

You'll get many different responses to that question. :)
It's breeding and training that makes the difference. You're using event names .
Your choice of a setter depends to a large degree on where you are going to be hunting - kind of land etc

Cover setter trials are normally held in denser woods etc. Cover less ground. Hard to see them working, but of course they will hold a bird until you get there. I think they can wear a bell. They have the same intensity as a field setter - I've seen both work many times. The handler always walks.

Field setter trials have more open areas and the dogs usually travel much farther in an hour.The handler can walk or ride a horse.Great if you live in the prairies.

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Re: English Setter Confusion

Post by shags » Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:47 pm

What would be your plans for the dog? Will you run both NSTRA and NAVHDA or one or the other? How far will you travel to compete or test?

Based on my observation in my area, the Ryman types are bigger and slower on the ground, and have a flatter point than Llews or field setters. Then again, I've seen one or two that flat flew, but still had the flat or low point. Llews can be indistinguishable from 'regular' field setters. Llews are registered separately in FDSB, but are just plain English Setters in AKC. Performance-wise they seem to run the gamut.

So, it might behoove you to check out what wins at NSTRA trials in your area. If there's a predjudice against anything without a lofty point, you might not want to go there if you value success. In my very limited experience with NAHVDA, those tests seem to me to be a lot about obedience and handler control. The couple of non-versatiles I've seen tested, seemed to have had some starch taken out of them in some ways, but the owners didn't seem to mind and took pride in having long hairs that did non-traditional work.

I'm not so sure that cover dogs and horseback dogs ( that's what I would say is the opposite of coverdog) can be pigeon holed. I had a setter out of HB all-age breeding, and he loved the woods. He ran big in the open, but looked good in the woods too. I have a dog now out of mostly coverdog lines, and he is not quick and snappy as I expected, but has giant range and a HB all age gait and looks great in the open. he's big so is like a freight train in the woods.

I think it's a matter of if a dog has the desire to find birds, he'll adjust to cover and terrain to find them if he has the opportunity to be exposed to different environments.

Others' mileage may vary, this is what I see around here.

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Re: English Setter Confusion

Post by Featherfinder » Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:28 am

There can be a cavernous expanse between AA horseback dogs, cover dogs, and NAVHDA/NSTRA! It also can depend on what part of the country you compete in.
The bigger questions have to be:
- What exactly are you looking for in your dog? Will it be a wild bird hunter, a hunt club dog, a trialer, a hunt test dog, or any combo of these?
- Are you an experienced trainer, mediocre trainer or novice?
- Will you be the only one training this setter or will you have help from an experienced handler/trainer?
The reason I ask is because an experienced trainer can develop a dog to do well in most any of these venues, even a multitude of these venues but he/she needs to start with a dog that exudes the appropriate characteristics and genetics.
Logic suggests that if you want an AA horseback competitor, buy from proven lines there-in. If you want a cover dog.....etc. etc. Further-to-this, you don't get wrapped up in that Ryman/Lewellin "stuff".
Even if you want a wild bird hunter and live/hunt in densely wooded areas (grouse/woodcock), I would strongly suggest you look at the cover dog lines that are successful there-in. It doesn't mean they can't compete outside of cover trials.
NAVHDA/NSTRA/Hunt tests tend to elicit a more handler dominant/obedience based/mechanical type performance, IMO. A dog developed that way, doesn't serve my typical wild bird hunting preferences and it most assuredly will not serve the trial world. Once again, a good dog CAN learn to cross-compete in a number of venues. This brings you back to the owner/trainer competency questions. Like Sharon said, "It's (both) breeding and training that makes the difference."

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Re: English Setter Confusion

Post by averageguy » Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:24 am

Featherfinder wrote: NAVHDA/NSTRA/Hunt tests tend to elicit a more handler dominant/obedience based/mechanical type performance, IMO. A dog developed that way, doesn't serve my typical wild bird hunting preferences and it most assuredly will not serve the trial world. Once again, a good dog CAN learn to cross-compete in a number of venues. This brings you back to the owner/trainer competency questions. Like Sharon said, "It's (both) breeding and training that makes the difference."
I sure can't speak to FF's preferences, but nothing in preparing a dog for NAVHDA Hunt Tests detracts from its performance hunting wild birds. It is the opposite outcome, the general case is they are excellent wild bird dogs and excel in that arena. That is the purpose of the NAVHDA test system.

My NAVHDA line GWP's Breeder sends me photos and video of his Dam (and Aunts/Cousins/Stud Dogs) pointing and retrieving Wild Chukars in Oregon on a regular basis. His Dam hunts in extremely steep breaks out to 600 yards and holds birds until the hunter arrives. Recovers and Retrieves Chukars from sometimes hundreds of yards up and down those extremely steep slopes and waterfowl in ice water current from the Snake river. The dog never stops digging for birds and that is the single most important criteria that has caused her to be used for Breeding.

Prize 1 awards in the NAVHDA UPT and UT tests require among many other things, that a dog search boldly in a swimming depth thick rank marsh for a blind retrieve released live duck for a minimum of 10 minutes with no commands from the Handler past the first send. The dog will often be out of sight of the handler as it works in the cover and distances of 200 yards or more out in the marsh are common. It requires a bold independent prey driven dog to get the necessary highest score of 4 in that subject which is also required to earn a Prize 1 overall award. This is by specific design to assure that dogs which can score a Prize 1 in those tests are of the bold independent never stop working to find game type of dog.

I fully expect that a dog which earns an AFC or FC title can be predicted to have a fast and wide ground pattern. That provides no assurances the dog will actually find more wild game while hunting however, as many dogs running those types of ground patterns are very poor at working singles once coveys are broken up.

Whereas a dog which passes a NAVHDA test may or may not have a fast snappy ground pattern. You would need to observe the dog working to know as both can be observed within the NAVHDA tests system. Slow plodding dogs will be scored down in NAVHDA and will not receive a Prize 1 score as a consequence. But there are many bold bird finders utilizing the NAVHDA test system and they are generally of the type that the average novice trainer who educates and applies themselves to the task of training the dog can have a high degree of success hunting wild birds with.

Whereas dogs from Field Trial lines are notoriously difficult for novice handlers to mold into a dog they can enjoy and utilize for hunting wild birds. The fact is most of those FT dogs are seldom shot over. Some are, most are not. There is nothing in their Field Trial system evaluations to promote strong genetics for after the shot performance. Which most wild bird hunters place a premium on or should if they don't.

GSPs dominate the entries in NAVHDA and I have very seldom seen a Setter. You can use the NAVHDA database system to search by Breed and then research the Setters that test in that system if it interests you.

The National Champion Cover Dog Setter I hunted with in Texas in Feb 2018 was excellent at finding and pointing those running wild bobwhites and ran a very active and intelligent ground pattern. Running farther would have done nothing to enhance that dog's usefulness for the task. I would rate a dog of that type as a very good fit for an avid wild bird hunter looking for stylish snappy bird dog and much more likely genetics that the average novice trainer can get a handle on.

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Re: English Setter Confusion

Post by cjhills » Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:03 am

Talk to the Bergs in Minnesota, they are setter gurus and can give you a lot of info on different lines......Cj

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Re: English Setter Confusion

Post by Dakotazeb » Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:30 am

Featherfinder wrote: NAVHDA/NSTRA/Hunt tests tend to elicit a more handler dominant/obedience based/mechanical type performance, IMO.
I don't know how you can lump NSTRA in with NAVHDA and hunt tests. NSTRA is a totally different venue. I personally feel that NSTRA is closer to actual hunting than any other field trial or hunt test.

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Re: English Setter Confusion

Post by isonychia » Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:54 am

Dakotazeb wrote:
Featherfinder wrote: NAVHDA/NSTRA/Hunt tests tend to elicit a more handler dominant/obedience based/mechanical type performance, IMO.
I don't know how you can lump NSTRA in with NAVHDA and hunt tests. NSTRA is a totally different venue. I personally feel that NSTRA is closer to actual hunting than any other field trial or hunt test.
I love my NSTRA brittanies and have come to believe their style of hunting is right on par with what I do which is 100% wild birds and we go out a lot and travel for them. I would say more than 30 days afield for a working man's average year. I like the idea of NAVHDA. I think a cover trial would be preferred generally for all hunting dogs, or at least that premise of real, live, wild game. Can I see myself flying to the NE to see one cover trial in foreign habitat vs driving 8 hrs a few times over the course of a year to see multiple ES run in NSTRS and NAVHDA? That is a tough question. I hunt mostly grouse and like a 100 yard or less grouse woods range and a 200-300 yard plus chukar range. A lot of strange hazards in my grouse woods (mtn bikes, mine shafts, hidden cliffs, not to mention lions) make me feel better with a slightly closer grouse dog. Then again 100 yards would be considered too far for many grouse hunters but our cover is different. This has been good so far. My suspensions of old line names have been more or less.confirmed. I think I will have to go see some work!

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Re: English Setter Confusion

Post by birddogger2 » Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:34 am

Iso -

I am not a setter guy, but I have seen a bunch of different types in competitions over the years. And you bet... there are wide variations between the performances I have seen. I am quite sure that some portion of the differences is in the breeding , but some is also in the training and experience. As far as temperament is concerned, there have been a few setters I have seen that were tough as a boot, but most have fairly soft dispositions and respond best to a gentle hand and encouragement, as opposed to stricter discipline.

I have not seen any Setters or Brittanys in Navhda. But... of the dogs and training groups that I am familiar with (3 different groups in my area) there does indeed seem to be a stronger focus on obedience and discipline than for the field trial dogs. Different areas and different chapters have different training directors and different ways of doing things I am sure.

I can't say that the Navhda training I have witnessed in my area takes anything out of the shorthairs, DD's, Weims or Wirehairs that I have seen working at Navhda training sessions. But these breeds tend to be mentally a lot tougher than some others, including setters.

I have seen some Vizslak at Navhda that show some negative effects of Navhda type training, but it may well be partly the trainer's experience level with that breed. The V's I have been around have been much more of a one person dog and some do tend to sulk and avoid and such when subjected to discipline, especially by someone other than their master.

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Re: English Setter Confusion

Post by shags » Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:45 am

birddogger2 wrote:Iso -
I can't say that the Navhda training I have witnessed in my area takes anything out of the shorthairs, DD's, Weims or Wirehairs that I have seen working at Navhda training sessions. But these breeds tend to be mentally a lot tougher than some others, including setters.
RayG
I don't think it's that those breeds are mentally tougher, but that versatiles have more natural ability for some tasks. Any breed can be trained for retrieves, duck searches, and tracking, but it's easier on all involved when the dog's brain is already hardwired for it.

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Re: English Setter Confusion

Post by Featherfinder » Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:25 am

It was once said that you can get a "big running dog" reeled in but getting a plodder out where it needs to be is hard. I suggested the OP consider a cover dog setter for your hunting preferences. Now if you're looking for a dog that is stronger in versatile applications (including tracking, waterfowling, etc.) go with a German dog, for sure - it's what they were developed for in the first place.
As is often the case, when someone speaks of other breeds/breeders, we jump up to defend "our dog". I try not to do that when responding. I believe the OP was specifically asking about ES. I assumed English setters rather than English Springers. Hence my response.

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Re: English Setter Confusion

Post by averageguy » Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:16 am

ISO,

Go watch some NAVHDA and NSTRA is my recommendation. Depending on the Handlers and dogs that show up you will likely see some excellent wild bird hunters and their equally excellent dogs, some game playing plodders, experimenters/fanciers with rare/exotic breeds, and some newbies doing their best to learn and develop their dogs.

A heavy handed trainer can ruin or stifle any dog, but training for and running a NAVHDA test does not equate to it.

The NAVHDA database is very well done and allows a person to search the test records of Breeder/Kennel and specific dogs. Each test and the score of each subject in each test can be seen for an individual dog. It also shows the Owner/Handler, the Chapter where the test was run and the Judges. A person doing research can then contact those who were in attendance at the test and see what can be gleaned from talking with them further.

To this potential issue of "plodding dogs in NAVHDA", the Search and Cooperation categories are two key things to take a look at, as is Duck Search. Some percentage of the GWP puppies from my Breeder source are dinged in Search and Cooperation areas of their NA tests not because they are plodders, but because they run at the edge of, or perhaps a little past the edge of control at young age :). (It irks my Breeder as he thinks their Search is excellent while gladly accepting being scored down in Cooperation, but that is for another discussion.) Like all things Human, Judging varies particularly in this area.

Many good dog men in NAVHDA comment they like seeing a less than 4 score in those areas for that reason, particularly in a NA test. The Chapter members associated with those test results often have good insights to a specific dog having seen it attend training days through its preparation, and most of us enjoy talking about dogs. Using the database, some followup phone work and some eyes on observations will serve you well. They are helpful in sorting through dog issues vs handler issues.

Studying those database details across a litter or Kennel line of dog will reveal trends as to those specific key areas. How often are dogs from that Kennel line scored high or low in Search and Cooperation in their NA and UT tests for example. It becomes revealing as to the style of dog that Breeder produces.

The NAVHDA Chapter closest to where I live enjoys a leadership of dog men who successfully hunt Sharptails, Prairie Chickens, Huns, Ruffed Grouse, Woodcock, Quail, Pheasants and Waterfowl on a regular basis. Most of them are running GSPs and their dogs are of the type which will please the vast majority of avid wild bird hunters.

I am not sure how applicable the NAVHDA portion of this thread is to your research for a quality foot hunting ES, as I have not found that organization to be a hotbed of ES in terms of numbers. But you only need one and chances are good that the ES that do participate in NAVHDA may well be of the type you are looking for. Worth a look as part of your research, but NSTRA and Cover Dog venues are the more likely source at least in terms of numbers.

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Re: English Setter Confusion

Post by Featherfinder » Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:18 am

Good dogs and bad can be found from many breeds/breeders.
If in fact you are looking for a an E. setter, you won't see many E. setters at NAVHDA for sure. You WILL see lots of German breeds. There is a reason for that. You will see tons of high class setters at a cover trial.
Some sage person suggested the Berg's. They are very much invested/respected in setters and know that breed as well as most. See where they suggest you look.

https://bergbrothers.settersunlimited.com/

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Re: English Setter Confusion

Post by DonF » Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:58 am

I think the thing about NAVHDA and other venues is simply that NAVHDA is a test and the other's are competition of one kind or another. But a NAVHDA dog should be competative in NSTRA but probably not AKC or AF. Not even in walking trials. Have only been to one NAVHDA test and did not come away impressed. Had a training day years ago with a NSTRA club and a well known NAVHDA shorthair guy showed up. Dog was an import and really impressive how it handled in the field. One major flaw for me, it didn't run any more than a Springer Spaniel. Had the dog been competing in NSTRA trials I'm sure it would have done well. It would never place in any AKC or AF trial, walking or otherwise. Would easily do an AKC master hunter though! I'm quite sure you could hunt wild birds with it!

In the Setter's, the different line's are supposed to be all English Setter's. Llewellin's are simply English that must trace back to the orginal line. I think they are simply registered as E. Setter's. Not so sure about the Ryman. Supposed to be bigger closer working dog's. Then there's those smaller setter's we see and people claim they are Llewellin's. Maybe and maybe not. If they don't trace back to the original line's they aren't but, they are still E. Setter's! When I did NSTRA I don't recall any of the larger dog's competing. Doing AKC I also saw very few small dog's competing and very few E. Setter's at all. But there's a group of hunter's using E.Setter's that are absolutely in love with them. The cover dog name I don't get. My impression of cover dog was a type of trial, usually grouse, and different breed's actually ran them, are they all cover dog's or is it truly simply a name we call a trial? If your not pretty low key guy, I'd never suggest an E Setter, they just don't seem to handle pressure well at all. Then if you get a hard but soft one it will drive you crazy. Hard as in they need a firm hand and soft as in not to firm a hand. One thing about my Red that really impress's me is he is much more biddable than my English's were and not soft. Keep in mind you could get a soft dog in any breed. As for is one line better than the other in the venue's you spoke of, not so sure. But in NSTRA the smaller setter's way out numbered the larger one's, don't recall ever seeing one of the larger ones; lot's of the smaller one's around.

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Re: English Setter Confusion

Post by isonychia » Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:25 pm

Hard as in they need a firm hand and soft as in not to firm a hand
That sounds a lot like Brittanys, especially my youngest one. Stubborn yet soft, determined and resilient but you gotta be careful. Forgiveness is a good trait in these dogs. I accidentally nicked the wrong dog once (switch was backwards on me) at the wrong time, finally fixed the problem that made for me but it took some slow work over the course of about a month. Older dogs obviously less susceptible to mess-ups like that. Are you suggesting the English Setters could be fairly easy to ruin? Is gun shyness a problem with this breed? Is force fetching much more of a challenge?

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Re: English Setter Confusion

Post by isonychia » Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:33 pm

I should point out that the reason I even brought up NAVHDA is because I saw some Setters in the records getting fairly good scores in some of the "more" local chapters. I had never really ever thought of them as the kind of versatile dog that runs in NAVHDA, much like the brittany can, but nobody is really doing it because the NSTRA venue is their cup of tea.

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Re: English Setter Confusion

Post by Moulders Farm » Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:06 pm

I do not know any thing about NSTRA or NAVDHA but raised & hunted Llewellin setters for years I no longer rease or sell them to old but in my opion as a compain & close hunting dog it is hard to beat a Llewellin setter which is found in Field dog stud book FDSB reg only they are the only one keeping lew seperat from Eng setters If you wont a family dog & a dog that wonts to hunt with & for you they are hard ot beat , I have made a lot of friends that love there lew they bough from me but we are all family men that love to hunt not sure any of my puppys ever hunted much in trails but have lots of pictures sent to me with there dog & lots of birds diferent kind

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Re: English Setter Confusion

Post by polmaise » Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:15 pm

Sharon wrote:" Is any one line (IE Ryman or Llewellin) better at either of these venues ?" .............No imo.....I doubt a true Llewellin is even available now.

" What is the opposite of a cover setter and what are the major differences?"

You'll get many different responses to that question. :)
It's breeding and training that makes the difference. You're using event names .
Your choice of a setter depends to a large degree on where you are going to be hunting - kind of land etc

Cover setter trials are normally held in denser woods etc. Cover less ground. Hard to see them working, but of course they will hold a bird until you get there. I think they can wear a bell. They have the same intensity as a field setter - I've seen both work many times. The handler always walks.

Field setter trials have more open areas and the dogs usually travel much farther in an hour.The handler can walk or ride a horse.Great if you live in the prairies.
Pretty much takes any confusion away for me !
An English setter is an English Setter...anything else is what training or rules or variations in the environment you want them to do ..To suit Your "Preference". :wink:

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Re: English Setter Confusion

Post by averageguy » Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:21 pm

ISO, I suggest you complete your own research on the NAVHDA ES you have a line on. They might be just what you want.

There are quite a few NAVHDA titled dogs which are also competing in FTs, albeit most of them are GSPs. I posted this months NAVHDA magazine cover twice on this Forum. The dog on the cover is 2 years old and a NAVHDA UT, VC, AFC at 2 years of age. His Sire is a UT, VC, AFC, FC MH among other things.

I am going to see if this works, but I did a database search on ES testing in NAVHDA for a specified time period and have a link to the list it produced. I am working on getting contact information for one of the guy's on this list and will PM it you when I have it. He has VC and FC titled ES.

http://www.navhda.us/Reports/ReportToPD ... 01/02/2019

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Re: English Setter Confusion

Post by averageguy » Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:08 pm

ISO, PM sent with the guy's name and a phone number.

BTW He is listed as a reference on the BergBrothers website which includes the note he sent them regarding a pup he got from them, NAVHDA NA results.

So a NAVHDA guy tapping into the good stuff as recommended by CJ and FF. Imagine that. :)

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Re: English Setter Confusion

Post by Sharon » Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:11 pm

You know this has been an excellent thread , but these kind of threads always remind me that firmly LABELLING a breed as being able to do this or that is ..............Saying a setter is not good at ......or a GSP is better at ........depends so much on the individual dog + its training and experiences . The individual dog will continue to blow any hard and fast definitions out of the water. :)

OP( original poster)

Do follow the advice given by these many true experts; I'm just feeling philosophical to day. :)

off topic : Saw a dog last night where the woman bought a GSP because she wanted a lap dog. :( Poor dog.

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Re: English Setter Confusion

Post by isonychia » Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:17 pm

Awesome, thanks Avg! I actually sent an email over to the Bergs as well asking if they knew of any pups that might be in my area to check out. This is still a few years out for me but it is good to start that processes. 3 years goes by super fast. I had entertained the idea of a German versatile heavily. Who knows on that one, maybe one day, but I have wanted to try setters for almost 10 years now so it needs to happen. I also love finding white dogs in grouse cover.

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Re: English Setter Confusion

Post by averageguy » Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:43 pm

Good on you for starting your research early. You will no doubt land on something great because of it. I do not have legs enough to own and hunt with all the breeds of hunting dogs I admire and appreciate it. So I get some time in the field with dogs owned by others annually as the next best thing.

Best of Luck in your search. It will be fun.

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Re: English Setter Confusion

Post by shags » Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:30 pm

isonychia wrote:Awesome, thanks Avg! I actually sent an email over to the Bergs as well asking if they knew of any pups that might be in my area to check out. This is still a few years out for me but it is good to start that processes. 3 years goes by super fast. I had entertained the idea of a German versatile heavily. Who knows on that one, maybe one day, but I have wanted to try setters for almost 10 years now so it needs to happen. I also love finding white dogs in grouse cover.
I have a Berg Bros setter.

I'd get another in a heartbeat.

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Re: English Setter Confusion

Post by polmaise » Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:47 pm

Sharon wrote:
off topic : Saw a dog last night where the woman bought a GSP because she wanted a lap dog. :( Poor dog.
Met someone last week that bought a Setter because she seen a You tube video of one on a Grouse moor ! ...It was Red and Irish . ..

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Re: English Setter Confusion

Post by gundogguy » Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:13 am

Sharon wrote:

off topic : Saw a dog last night where the woman bought a GSP because she wanted a lap dog. :( Poor dog.
Around the training center here it is often quoted " Nice dog just a shame it did not get to pick it's owner"!

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Re: English Setter Confusion

Post by Max2 » Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:00 am

gundogguy wrote:
Sharon wrote:

off topic : Saw a dog last night where the woman bought a GSP because she wanted a lap dog. :( Poor dog.
Around the training center here it is often quoted " Nice dog just a shame it did not get to pick it's owner"!
Huh ?? That explains it ! :D When i got my Jax dog (My first gun dog) at the recommendation of the man who introduced me to my breeder. My mentor as well as the other dog aficionado's that frequented our facility would always be smiling and saying (about myself) " he does not know what he has got" ........ That explains why the pro trainer who showed up one day & offered me double what i paid for the dog. :wink: What did I know ? :roll: I saw the way my Mentors dog acted at two yrs old and just thought that all guns dogs behaved in that manor... I have learned a lot in the last 22 yrs about dogs and as far as I can tell a lot of it comes down to breeding # 1 and you only get out of a dog what you put into a dog. Pretty simple actually. But then if you put your mind to it. Nothing is impossible.

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Re: English Setter Confusion

Post by Skydance » Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:33 pm

Here's a video that could help ya? Video Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Za0y0TE0bOk&t=21s

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Re: English Setter Confusion

Post by averageguy » Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:31 pm

ISO, the PM I sent you with the gentleman's name and phone number is still in my outbox waiting for you to take a look.

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Garrison
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Re: English Setter Confusion

Post by Garrison » Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:06 pm

averageguy wrote:
Featherfinder wrote: NAVHDA/NSTRA/Hunt tests tend to elicit a more handler dominant/obedience based/mechanical type performance, IMO. A dog developed that way, doesn't serve my typical wild bird hunting preferences and it most assuredly will not serve the trial world. Once again, a good dog CAN learn to cross-compete in a number of venues. This brings you back to the owner/trainer competency questions. Like Sharon said, "It's (both) breeding and training that makes the difference."
I sure can't speak to FF's preferences, but nothing in preparing a dog for NAVHDA Hunt Tests detracts from its performance hunting wild birds. It is the opposite outcome, the general case is they are excellent wild bird dogs and excel in that arena. That is the purpose of the NAVHDA test system.

My NAVHDA line GWP's Breeder sends me photos and video of his Dam (and Aunts/Cousins/Stud Dogs) pointing and retrieving Wild Chukars in Oregon on a regular basis. His Dam hunts in extremely steep breaks out to 600 yards and holds birds until the hunter arrives. Recovers and Retrieves Chukars from sometimes hundreds of yards up and down those extremely steep slopes and waterfowl in ice water current from the Snake river. The dog never stops digging for birds and that is the single most important criteria that has caused her to be used for Breeding.

Prize 1 awards in the NAVHDA UPT and UT tests require among many other things, that a dog search boldly in a swimming depth thick rank marsh for a blind retrieve released live duck for a minimum of 10 minutes with no commands from the Handler past the first send. The dog will often be out of sight of the handler as it works in the cover and distances of 200 yards or more out in the marsh are common. It requires a bold independent prey driven dog to get the necessary highest score of 4 in that subject which is also required to earn a Prize 1 overall award. This is by specific design to assure that dogs which can score a Prize 1 in those tests are of the bold independent never stop working to find game type of dog.

I fully expect that a dog which earns an AFC or FC title can be predicted to have a fast and wide ground pattern. That provides no assurances the dog will actually find more wild game while hunting however, as many dogs running those types of ground patterns are very poor at working singles once coveys are broken up.

Whereas a dog which passes a NAVHDA test may or may not have a fast snappy ground pattern. You would need to observe the dog working to know as both can be observed within the NAVHDA tests system. Slow plodding dogs will be scored down in NAVHDA and will not receive a Prize 1 score as a consequence. But there are many bold bird finders utilizing the NAVHDA test system and they are generally of the type that the average novice trainer who educates and applies themselves to the task of training the dog can have a high degree of success hunting wild birds with.

Whereas dogs from Field Trial lines are notoriously difficult for novice handlers to mold into a dog they can enjoy and utilize for hunting wild birds. The fact is most of those FT dogs are seldom shot over. Some are, most are not. There is nothing in their Field Trial system evaluations to promote strong genetics for after the shot performance. Which most wild bird hunters place a premium on or should if they don't.

GSPs dominate the entries in NAVHDA and I have very seldom seen a Setter. You can use the NAVHDA database system to search by Breed and then research the Setters that test in that system if it interests you.

The National Champion Cover Dog Setter I hunted with in Texas in Feb 2018 was excellent at finding and pointing those running wild bobwhites and ran a very active and intelligent ground pattern. Running farther would have done nothing to enhance that dog's usefulness for the task. I would rate a dog of that type as a very good fit for an avid wild bird hunter looking for stylish snappy bird dog and much more likely genetics that the average novice trainer can get a handle on.

Image
Averageguy,
There is a lot of good info here about NAVHDA, but it also seems to be a lot of personal opinion stated as fact. In my “opinion” some of it couldn’t be further from what I have personally experienced. I have had Setters from trial lines as well as a GSP with Shooting Starr blood and VC champions with 200 and 195 scores at the invitational up close in the pedigree. Being a novice who trains his own dogs I have not found the dogs with trial lines to be any harder to train or handle then the NAVHDA bred dogs I have personally owned or hunted behind. I do ocasionally train with the local NAVHDA group here as well as hunt with my uncle who has Griffons who have been to the invitational. In my “opinion” there are well bred NAVHDA dogs that I would love to own and there are many I wouldn’t want, same with trial lines. I don’t participate in any of the dog games, I use my dogs to hunt wild birds. Chukar, quail and ocasionally pheasant. In my experience and using my dogs in this pursuit there are a few points that I haven’t found to be the case.

“Noutorisoly hard to train and mold in to wild bird dogs”. Think I already covered most of this, but would add the overwhelming majority of Pointers, Setters, Brittanys and most GSP’s hunting wild birds in this country have trial lines in their pedigree for a reason.

“Wide ranging dogs can’t pick up singles well after a covey flush”. In my opinion any smart wild bird dog knows when there are birds in an area especially after a covey has flushed and will slow their roll as soon as they are on them and work them. A good dog doesn’t run to just run, they run in pursuit of game they are looking for, once they find the game they are going to keep pursuing it until they can’t find it any more in that area. Their elastic range goes wide because they are looking not when they are finding. I think for many range is confused with control or lack of it, in my experience a wider ranging dog in many ways must display more control. My goal is a dog that I don’t have to talk to when we are hunting so I can talk to my friends.

“No NAVHDA training practices keep it from being a good wild bird dog”. In my opinion a wild bird dog needs wild bird contacts to be a wild bird dog. Too much training on planted or launcher birds does keep a dog from being a good wild bird dog in my opinion and many trialers and many NAVHDA training set ups can and do inhibit a dogs ability on wild birds. Because of the lack of wild bird hunting and training opportunities for most this is just an unfortunate reality. Many trialers and pros remedy this at great expense on the prairies and in the woods. NAVHDA trainers depends on the local hunting opportunities.

“The fact is most FT dogs are seldom shot over”. This is just nonsense ocasionally said at the back of a tailgate by someone who wants to make themselves feel better about their own pursuits and training style. Again the majority of hunting dogs have FT dogs in their pedigree. There are many great wild bird dogs with either VC or FC’s on their pedigree.

“About FT dogs and after the shot genetics” Any dog can be force fetched and trained to hunt dead, pretty sure most who do well in NAVHDA are. This has nothing to do with the success of a wild bird hunt for me as I don’t like the taste of ducks.

To the OP if NAVHDA is your goal then a Setter would not be the dog of choice for me, my GSP would be much better suited for the water work and the pressure and control that is required to be successful. My pursuit is wild upland birds so my next pup will be another Setter coming from proven wild bird FT lines. That said a good dog is a good dog even if their styles of hunting are different, only better or worse for the guy or gal that feeds them. I like both for different reasons, seen and experienced first hand, so probably will always own one of each for those reasons.

Garrison
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Re: English Setter Confusion

Post by averageguy » Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:51 pm

Garrison,

It would take a lot of time and typing to cover all that you have brought up, but the short of it is I agree with a great deal of what you say.

To a large extent you are reading me incorrect.

I am aware there a whole lot of excellent wild bird dogs with FT lines in their veins, and even more aware of the need for exposure and experience hunting wild birds for a dog to become good at it. A dog knowing when to slow down and work more methodically for singles is an excellent example of it. Some dogs really struggle to do the latter no matter how much experience they gain and that is where genetics is often at work.

I raised my last two GWPs in a row to be excellent wild bird dogs on both upland and waterfowl, while also passing both dogs at a UT level before they were 18 months old. So when the assertion was made in this thread that NAVHDA testing equated with taking the starch out of the dog, I shared my actual experience contrary to that claim.

The best GSP, EP and ES I have hunted wild quail over were all FT strain dogs. Each of them would have all been a challenge for an inexperienced Novice to bring to the same level of performance however. I have Friends who kill a huge pile of wild birds of all species annually with their NAVHDA line GSPs and GWPs as well.

I am an avid wild bird hunter who has also trained and tested his dogs in NAVHDA, not the reverse. My current GWP has a good dose of a very successful line of FT GWPs out of Canada in his Bloodline so I am not lacking in first hand experience there either. We have hunted wild birds in four states so far this season which is down from 6 states and Canada in each of his first two seasons.

Sorry if I stepped on a nerve with you somehow. I was responding to mis-formation in the thread regarding NAVHDA most of which was subsequently edited out and so not visible at this time.

I have most certainly seen firsthand some gross mis-matches with Novice Handlers and hot FT lines of Brittanys and EPs, and that was behind the portions of my remarks that you chose to quote in yours. The National Champion ES in the photo is run on wild birds a bunch, but very seldom has birds shot over him and does not retrieve or hunt dead at all.

My remarks regarding the spectrum of dogs I routinely observe in the NAVHDA system were balanced and accurate.

Beautiful dog in your photos. If you like em chances are good I would too.
Last edited by averageguy on Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: English Setter Confusion

Post by Garrison » Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:24 pm

averageguy wrote:Garrison,

It would take a lot of time and typing to cover all that you have brought up, but the short of it is I agree with a great deal of what you say.

To a large extent you are reading me incorrect.

I am aware there a whole lot of excellent wild bird dogs with FT lines in their veins, and even more aware of the need for exposure and experience hunting wild birds for a dog to become good at it. A dog knowing when to slow down and work more methodically for singles is an excellent example of it.

I raised my last two GWPs in a row to be excellent wild bird dogs on both upland and waterfowl, while also passing both dogs at a UT level before they were 18 months old. So when the assertion was made in this thread that NAVHDA testing equated with taking the starch out of the dog, I shared my actual experience contrary to that claim.

The best GSP, EP and ES I have hunted wild quail over were all FT strain dogs. Each of them would have all been a challenge for an inexperienced Novice to bring to the same level of performance however. I have Friends who kill a huge pile of wild birds of all species annually with their NAVHDA line GSPs as well.

I am an avid wild bird hunter who has also trained and tested his dogs in NAVHDA, not the reverse. My current GWP has a good dose of a very successful line of FT GWPs out of Canada in his Bloodline so I am not lacking in first hand experience there either. We have hunted wild birds in four states so far this season which is down from 6 states and Canada in each of his first two seasons.

Sorry if I stepped on a nerve with you somehow. I was responding to mis-formation in the thread regarding NAVHDA most of which was subsequently edited out and so not visible at this time.

I have most certainly seen firsthand some gross mis-matches with Novice Handlers and hot FT lines of Brittanys and EPs, and that was behind the portions of my remarks that you chose to quote in yours.

My remarks regarding the spectrum of dogs I routinely observe in the NAVHDA system were balanced and accurate.

Beautiful dogs in your photos. If you like em chances are good I would too.
No offense was taken on my part. We are all on the same side of this deal when we participate in efforts to keep the breeds going, pay our hunting fees to keep land open and donate to like minded organizations. How ever someone else wants to enjoy their dogs is of little concern to me as long as they are fed and cared for properly. Taking on any breed of bird dog can be challenging, that is also why it is so rewarding. Owning some of these breeds I naturally have the “this isn’t for everybody” mind set. I hate seeing dogs in the wrong hands or situation. It’s just my opinion that it has a lot more to do with the owner than the pedigree. There are probably as many hard driving cat killers in the versatile breedings as there are hard headed self hunters from FT lines which would both prove to be a handful for a novice. I think for the most part because of ethical breeders using sound judgement with testing and field trials as a ruler it is the exception instead of the rule and should probably be portrayed as such.

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Re: English Setter Confusion

Post by averageguy » Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:48 pm

There are a whole bunch of potential cat killers in NAVHDA, until and unless their Handlers train them otherwise, so no need for me to run from that fact. :) I am proud of the fact that several of my GWPs have done an excellent job of running and treeing Bobcats. I value and use versatility in my hunting dogs.

My views on the other subject differ some from yours but I have been clear as to why, and won't repeat it. I like a hard going dog as much as the next guy as long as everything else it takes to make an excellent wild bird dog accompanies it. There are always tradeoffs in this and most other things is my experience. The dual coat of my GWPs serves them well for late season waterfowling duties but shuts them down when the temps rise above 70 degrees while hunting prairie grouse for example.

The civility is appreciated. Happy Hunting.

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Re: English Setter Confusion

Post by Settertude » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:48 pm

Sharon wrote:" .............No imo.....I doubt a true Llewellin is even available now.


I'm curious as to why you say this considering the need for FDSB registry to show the opposite...a clear line going back containing the various lines.

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Re: English Setter Confusion

Post by Sharon » Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:09 pm

Just based on things I've read. You would know much better than I. Did a little more reading to day and this article certainly supports your position.

https://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/gun-d ... -own-breed

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Re: English Setter Confusion

Post by isonychia » Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:50 am

I love where this thread has gone, has been very educational. I realize that setters aren't very popular in NAVHDA, honestly brittanies are even more rare there. I think that my frame of mind here is that I know there are some running in NAVHDA and if a setter does well in NAVHDA I can look at individual scores and be able to say where the dog lacks, my guess in setters would be a lack in water tracking, which I honestly do not care about for my purposes. However, a NAVHDA dog is going to hopefully show me where that dog stands as far as water retrieving goes, whereas NSTRA doesn't. NSTRA however, has more focus on the retrieve and steadiness, but they are both walking trials, unlike the AA trials, etc. So the question for me is; What do I really want? Well, I want a dog that has the most style on point possible, which in my personal taste is going to be a setter. After that, I want the dog to come from lines that have proven abilities in the field that show no gun shyness, an excellent drive, ability to range adaptively to work with the walking hunter, and willingness to retrieve. If that dog will work water effectively too, I can't see how that is going to hurt me in my endeavors and may even open up a rare opportunity on jump shot ducks, etc.

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Re: English Setter Confusion

Post by Settertude » Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:18 pm

Sharon wrote:Just based on things I've read. You would know much better than I. Did a little more reading to day and this article certainly supports your position.

https://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/gun-d ... -own-breed
That is a good synopsis, Sharon. Its also interesting to note that the Ryman line developed by George Ryman in the early 1900's and the Old Hemlock line developed by George 'Bird' Evans were out of a desire to combine the best of the English Setter bench and field dogs.
This was accomplished at the first by Ryman using Llewellins and bench dogs as LLews were the best field/trial dogs of the day.
A little later Mr. Evans started his line with Ryman stock and brought some fresh Llew blood in along the way.
The English Setters first brought across the pond were Llewellin/Lavarack dogs and it is almost certainly true that all ES lines do have Llew blood in them.
I've been fortunate to own Llews and Old Hemlock/Ryman dogs.
I'm not a dog snob however, as I have owned others and would like to own one of each upland breeds before its over.
:D

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Re: English Setter Confusion

Post by isonychia » Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:59 am

Hey all. I have a line in with someone over at NAVHDA for some info on setters and did a little research on him and his dogs that he runs in those trials (Thanks to a member here for that lead). In that research I came across a few other breeder names I was curious about whether anyone has had experience with them, if you don't feel like sharing publicly you can always pm.

Tekoa mountain Setters - These seem more like AA dogs so I would be a little hesitant about that but not sure, maybe these dogs are really worth looking at,

Tomokas Smokin Kennels - Seems like the NLB equivalent of the Setter world, also not sure I want to bring the same thing to the table at NSTRA trials, lots of these dogs ran the 2018 DOY Trial with NSTRA and I tend to like the odd ball, really though these dogs look pretty good

Barrs Kennels - Top scoring "Orb" in the English Setters for the 2018 DOY NSTRA

Anyone know where to find Goodall's setters? Seeing this name in the NSTRA stuff closer to me and just curious.

Most of the above are Qs about NSTRA dogs, like I said I am waiting to hear back from a big ES NAVHDA guy on those lines I have in question.

Thanks again for any and all help!

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Re: English Setter Confusion

Post by Featherfinder » Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:24 pm

I hve both Tekoa Mountain Sunrise and Tomoka in my setter's genetics albeit not up front. As to the NSTRA stuff, I have no salient info for you.
Interestingly, the one side of my Tina girl's Tomoka line (Tomoka's Smokin Mike) did have NSTRA accreditation on it. ???
I bought her more for the HOF content in her pedigree.

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Re: English Setter Confusion

Post by shags » Sat Jan 26, 2019 6:29 am

I think it would be easier to dog shop if you made a decision on which format you prefer, then look for breedings. The two you mention, NSTRA and NAVHDA, are apples and oranges. From what I have observed around here, you might do better going both ways with a versatile breed, since they generally have more natural badic talent for parts of the NAVHDA tests. The non-versatiles I've seen in the testing program have been more obedience-type trained to perform them, and it looked to me like some starch had been taken out of those dogs with work that tequired more independence.

There is at least one way around it though. A successful all-pointing breed trainer who competed in my area would run dogs in hb trials, attain their field championships, then apply training for completion of master hunter trials. Still, for some test judges, those dogs might be "too much" sometimes. once in a while this trainer would take into his program dogs which had master hunter titles and then cross them over into hb trials. It was more difficult for those dogs to find success in the trial format.

Maybe attend both tests and trials and see which amps you up more. Most likely the people there could help you track down breeders whose dogs have done well. Then you could observe the dogs yourself, rather than relying on just names on the pedigree.

If you are fine with being flexible, you could get a pup then figure out which format suits it best. There's a game out there for just about every dog, so not hard to avoid square peg, round hole situations.

FWIW, tons of setters have TM Sunrise in their pedigrees, but mostly, he's waaaay back there now. IME calling amd talking to breeders works pretty well. Most are upfront on what and where their dogs are doing. I'd avoid any who hem and haw about it.

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Re: English Setter Confusion

Post by averageguy » Sat Jan 26, 2019 9:20 am

ISO,

The upland bird hunting portion of a NAVHDA UT or Invitational Test require a dog to perform to a steady to WSF standard, and when released to retrieve a shot bird, the dog must go directly to the bird and retrieve it directly back to within one step of the Handler, holding the bird until the Handler takes it. Essentially a MH level of performance and a much higher standard of performance than NSTRA in terms of steadiness.

Assuming a dog is not prone to overrunning its nose and past birds, even a bigger running dog can do well in that portion of the test as they will encounter a released bird as they go.

The Drag and even more so the Duck Search are all about the dog performing independently. The more drive a dog has to independently seek out game the better they score in Duck Search. A maximum score of 4 in Duck Search is required for Prize 1.

If training a dog to heel and be steady takes the starch out of them for bird hunting it was not much of a dog to begin with.

There is a large spectrum of breeds of dogs testing in the NAVHDA and one can certainly see some slow working ones but it is gross misnomer to equate that with the Test venue requires or causes it.

Seeing for yourself will be the best information.

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