Dog won't find dead birds

[porochi]

Wondering why it is that my GSP is great at finding quail in the thickest cover imaginable but once they're downed it's as though he can't smell them anymore. A few days ago he did great repeatedly finding quail in the thickest cover we've ever hunted, so I know his nose is working just fine; however, he ignored the birds after they fell. I watched him run right past a downed quail and he never smelled it, that, or he just ignored it. Do they somehow smell different immediately after they're downed? I wouldn't think so but watching him bury himself in brush to find live quail then see him run past ones I just shot makes me wonder if somehow his nose is tuned to only find and point live ones? I call him over when I can't find one myself and I can get him to dutifully sniff around the spot where I think the bird fell but he rarely finds the downed bird. He seems to do it half-a** though, and eventually I'll turn him loose to continue hunting while I keep looking for the downed bird. Frequently I'll hear his collar beeping -- he's back on point -- when I arrive, sure enough, he's found more live quail. So why can't he find the dead ones? What's going on in his dog mind that he won't hunt dead but is darn good at hunting "live?"

[Trekmoor]

Your dog certainly will be scenting the dead birds ….it is the retrieve training the dog is lacking in. Dogs often have a preference for hunting over retrieving and it is your job to increase the dogs willingness to retrieve. You have got the balance between hunting and retrieving wrong somewhere during the dog's training....probably by doing too much hunting and not enough retrieving.

Or perhaps the dog was corrected at some time in the past while investigating a dead bird ?

Bill T.

[averageguy]

Yes dead birds smell different than live ones, which is why most dogs immediately go in and grab a dead bird in their mouth when they smell it vs pointing the live ones. Your dog smells the dead ones but is not interested in them, is my read based on your post.

In my "Start em Young" thread I posted my approach to developing a strong Hunt Dead behavior in my young puppies. I think it is worth a try with your adult dog.

FF will likely be recommended by someone and perhaps it might improve your dog in this area. But hunting dead requires desire and perseverance on the part of the dog and I have never felt that FF training is a good substitute for a dog's natural drive to hunt for downed birds.

[Trekmoor]

Although I am far from being knowledgeable about F.F. training I still don't think I'd use it as a way of encouraging a retrieve on a dead bird even if I was an expert . I'd take the route of encouraging and increasing the dog's really "wanting" to find and retrieve dead birds. I'd probably give the dog no more hunting until it would happily retrieve dead birds and only then begin to both hunt the dog and send it to retrieve again.

Try to persuade the dog that retrieving is a very worthwhile thing to do . I.M.O. dogs should not think of retrieving as being an exercise based on obedience but as an exercise based on enjoyment.

Bill T.

[averageguy]

Bill T,

We are in agreement and saying the same thing. My approach to building strong Hunt Dead skills is all about building desire and has no element of Force in it.

Once the bird is found, some trained Mouth Manners and return to the Handler trained behavior come into play, but that is not the same as a dog doing a diligent job hunting for a downed bird before it can retrieve it.

Many folks in the US who find themselves with a dog with little or no drive to retrieve resort to FF and think the end product is the same.

It is not the same, as there is a huge difference in a dog self motivated/driven to search for and recover a downed bird, (dead ones and live cripples running, burying in cover, swimming ...) and one that will go pick up a dead bird it got a mark on.

[isonychia]

I play dead bird in the house with a bumper that has a bird wing strapped to it. Only use I have found for old wings. It is a rarity but my dogs go insane over it. All standard bird rules apply. Bumper is only used as a training aid, absolutely no playing with it ever. Anyways, if I tell them dead bird in the field they basically don't give up. Good thing to do on cold winter nights, dogs wait in bathroom while I hide the "dead bird"

[Trekmoor]

" there is a huge difference in a dog self motivated/driven to search for and recover a downed bird, (dead ones and live cripples running, burying in cover, swimming ...) and one that will go pick up a dead bird it got a mark on.

That is also my opinion. Although I do not train F.F. I know that if I send a dog to search for a dead or a wounded bird , that dog will bust a gut trying to find it and retrieve it. It is for this reason that I try to make my pups retrieve fanatics before I ever take them out shooting or take them to big driven shoots. Self motivated retrievers really want to find dead or wounded birds.

Hunting for unshot birds tends to take care of itself as most dogs love to hunt but hunting can completely outshine retrieving in a dog's mind ....if you allow it to.

Bill T.

[polmaise]

Retrieving is Retrieving ...and Hunting is Hunting . Pointing is Pointing . But ,In training Hunting and pointing and retrieving together is always a No go ..in something .
Teach/condition/Train the separate elements then put them together .
For Pointing breeds I always train/condition Retrieving at Puppy stage ,before Hunting and Pointing. (because it is easier that way) .
I reckon I have an RHP ..

[porochi]

My GSP is 2.5 yr.'s old and already I'm his 3rd owner. I bought him from a preserve where he was kept as a guide dog for canned hunts. I was the 1st to hunt him on wild birds. Undoubtedly he's picked up bad habits along the way but I love his drive and range. If I can get him to hunt dead and retrieve he'd be the perfect quail dog.