Hybrid vigor, or just an outlier?

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nanney1
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Hybrid vigor, or just an outlier?

Post by nanney1 » Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:11 am

I was at our local PetSmart this weekend when I saw a HUGE Chocolate Lab. Unusually large. I struck up a conversation with the owners who told me he was a Labrador - Weimaraner cross. When I asked his weight, the guy told me he had just weighed and was 143lbs at 13 months. Wow. This dog was very tall, I would guess 30 inches at the withers. He was a bit heavy in my opinion, and would have looked better at maybe 130lbs. Of course, he would still be huge at this weight.

People continued to come up and ask about this dog as he caused quite a stir among the shoppers with his unusual size. Very friendly and enjoyed the attention of kids.

The lady showed me several photos on her phone of a recent get together with his siblings and parents. All of the other pups from his litter are in the 70-85lb range, similar in size to the parents. In the photos, this giant looked like he was the father dog with all of his pups.

Just curious what would cause this one pup to be so much larger than would be expected? Hybrid vigor, statistical outlier, or perhaps an endocrine disorder?

JONOV
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Re: Hybrid vigor, or just an outlier?

Post by JONOV » Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:53 pm

Some dogs are just BIG, has nothing to do with vigor or anything else.

I know an 80+ lb Griffon and she's not heavy. That's way too big for a Griff. Her parents were within the standard.

shags
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Re: Hybrid vigor, or just an outlier?

Post by shags » Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:41 pm

^^^
Just a freak of nature.

One of my dogs was bred locally, and I was able to visit the litter from about a week old onward. The dam was a bit under average size, and the sire was about average ~50 lbs.

The pup I liked best was huge compared to the others, I called him Big Fatty. I liked how he was put together and thought maybe he was my choice.
But I passed him over for the second smallest male, thinking about things like heat tolerance and gait.

My midget pup now weighs 75 pounds in competitive weight, and Big Fatty topped out at 40-something pounds.

Go figure :lol:

mnaj_springer
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Re: Hybrid vigor, or just an outlier?

Post by mnaj_springer » Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:57 pm

Just a big dog.

And hybrid vigor cannot occur when two breeds of dog are cross. Hybrid vigor only occurs when two species interbreed, ie. horses and donkeys. Dogs are all one species, canis lupus familiaris.

cjhills
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Re: Hybrid vigor, or just an outlier?

Post by cjhills » Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:31 pm

mnaj_springer wrote:Just a big dog.

And hybrid vigor cannot occur when two breeds of dog are cross. Hybrid vigor only occurs when two species interbreed, ie. horses and donkeys. Dogs are all one species, canis lupus familiaris.
Actually , that is not quite right. Hybrid vigor occurs between two different species , breeds or organism when they are crossed sexually. Cattle are routinely crossbred to get the advantage of Hybrid vigor. Generally increased size and faster growth. But this is likely just a big dog ..…..Cj

mnaj_springer
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Re: Hybrid vigor, or just an outlier?

Post by mnaj_springer » Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:37 pm

cjhills wrote:
mnaj_springer wrote:Just a big dog.

And hybrid vigor cannot occur when two breeds of dog are cross. Hybrid vigor only occurs when two species interbreed, ie. horses and donkeys. Dogs are all one species, canis lupus familiaris.
Actually , that is not quite right. Hybrid vigor occurs between two different species , breeds or organism when they are crossed sexually. Cattle are routinely crossbred to get the advantage of Hybrid vigor. Generally increased size and faster growth. But this is likely just a big dog ..…..Cj
Ok, I’ll rephrase. There is some controversy around the term “hybrid vigor.” Some believe it cannot occur within the same species, some feel it can. But almost all agree that for it to exist it must result in some sort of betterment of the offspring (whatever that subjectively means).

Where I have a problem is when it’s used within a species, whether cows or dogs, because it becomes indistinguishable from selective breeding. What is the difference? Intent? Does that mean “doodles” cannot experience hybrid vigor because those traits were selected? How about for those cows you mentioned? So does it only apply to oops breedings? You tell me.

Anyway, that’s my thought on it.

cjhills
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Re: Hybrid vigor, or just an outlier?

Post by cjhills » Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:21 am

Of course as with all breeding theory there is disagreement.
All market animas are routinely crossbred to increase feedlot performance. This is not selective breeding or an oops breeding between individual. It is between two breeds and only done to produce better feedlot performance. Not to produce better individuals. Black Baldy cattle bring more money at feeder auction because they perform better in the feed lot. This is generally a f2 breeding. There are breeders producing purebred cattle now that out perform the purebreds.
Still I think it was just a big dog.
Invigorating out this morning.....Cj

mnaj_springer
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Re: Hybrid vigor, or just an outlier?

Post by mnaj_springer » Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:49 am

CJ, having raised cattle, including black baldies, I would say it’s quite selective breeding. The hardiness of the Hereford and the mother’s instincts of an angus. Plus the bone to muscle ratio of angus. Traits selectively bred to enhance. It’s the same process as early breeding that produced EPs, Griffons, etc.

We’re talking about the same thing, just calling it a different name.

cjhills
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Re: Hybrid vigor, or just an outlier?

Post by cjhills » Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:26 am

Selective breeding is selecting individuals within a breed or bloodline to attempt to improve a bloodline or a breed long term. Hybrid vigor comes from breeding genetically different breeds or species to improve performance in one generation. Vastly different......Cj

mnaj_springer
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Re: Hybrid vigor, or just an outlier?

Post by mnaj_springer » Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:46 am

cjhills wrote:Selective breeding is selecting individuals within a breed or bloodline to attempt to improve a bloodline or a breed long term. Hybrid vigor comes from breeding genetically different breeds or species to improve performance in one generation. Vastly different......Cj
Like I said, there is disagreement. I don’t agree with this definition for a myriad of reasons but I don’t see us getting any further with this conversation.

JONOV
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Re: Hybrid vigor, or just an outlier?

Post by JONOV » Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:40 pm

To the "Hybrid Vigor" Point, Weims are big dogs, bigger than any other pointing breed on the whole. That size combined with a lab's bulk could make for a huge dog.

slistoe
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Re: Hybrid vigor, or just an outlier?

Post by slistoe » Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:32 am

If it were hybrid vigor producing the size then you would see the same in all the littermates.

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