Slowing down the dog

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Nmhuntr
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Slowing down the dog

Post by Nmhuntr » Sat Mar 02, 2019 8:34 pm

I have a 1 1/2 year old Britany female. This was her first year hunting which is tough with so few birds. I have set some out and a friend who has bird dogs said he feels she is running too fast. She covers a lot of ground but has a hard time slowing up and catching scent. any suggestions.

Thanks

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Re: Slowing down the dog

Post by cjhills » Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:26 pm

Pointing dogs can't run too fast. She probably needs more experience to work things out. IMO Birds hold better for a hard running ,solid pointing dog with a good nose, that will point some distance from the bird. Be careful with the planted birds, you don't want her catching them. You might be better off with a launcher. There are people on here who are experts on launchers. Not me. Good Luck…...Cj
Last edited by cjhills on Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Slowing down the dog

Post by gonehuntin' » Sat Mar 02, 2019 10:37 pm

I'm with CJ. Can't have a pointing dog too fast.

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Re: Slowing down the dog

Post by Trekmoor » Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:36 am

It used to be said that a dog was "too fast for it's nose." This is not quite true . The dog is simply too fast for it's level of experience on birds.
Give your bitch enough experience and the problem - if there is one - will disappear.

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Re: Slowing down the dog

Post by averageguy » Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:09 am

There are most certainly dogs which overrun their noses and are not effective at hunting singles and dead birds because of it.

I expect with continued exposure and opportunities on birds your pup will settle in and learn how to use its nose effectively.

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Re: Slowing down the dog

Post by Nmhuntr » Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:17 am

Thanks for the replies. Being that this is my first dog I wanted to ensure that there was really nothing I was missing.

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Re: Slowing down the dog

Post by DonF » Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:18 am

You haven't lived until you've seen a really fast dog hit a bird close at about a 90* angle, whamo! My old Thea hit one that way one time and rolled completely over and came up on a super hard point, it was stunning. Stormy did one like that and flipped sideways so quick he was on point with no feet on the ground and slid backward when he landed. Little trick. Use remote launcher's and when starting out, soon as the dog hit's scent, pop the bird, don't fool around giving the dog a chance to point! At some point the dog with react much faster than you and don't pop if the dog beat's you.

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Re: Slowing down the dog

Post by mnaj_springer » Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:18 pm

DonF wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:18 am
You haven't lived until you've seen a really fast dog hit a bird close at about a 90* angle, whamo! My old Thea hit one that way one time and rolled completely over and came up on a super hard point, it was stunning. Stormy did one like that and flipped sideways so quick he was on point with no feet on the ground and slid backward when he landed. Little trick. Use remote launcher's and when starting out, soon as the dog hit's scent, pop the bird, don't fool around giving the dog a chance to point! At some point the dog with react much faster than you and don't pop if the dog beat's you.
+1. This. This is some of the best advice I’ve seen for using launchers. You’ve said it before Don and it is still great advice.

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Re: Slowing down the dog

Post by Sharon » Sun Mar 03, 2019 2:38 pm

cjhills wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:26 pm
Pointing dogs can't run too fast. She probably needs more experience to work things out. IMO Birds hold better for a hard running ,solid pointing dog with a good nose, that will point some distance from the bird. Be careful with the planted birds, you don't want her catching them. You might be better off with a launcher. There are people on here who are experts on launchers. Not me. Good Luck…...Cj
X2 and Don's post is excellent too.

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Re: Slowing down the dog

Post by Nmhuntr » Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:45 pm

Yep
Looks like I need to get a good used remote launcher.

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Re: Slowing down the dog

Post by gonehuntin' » Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:59 am

I don't believe that any trained dog ever over runs his nose. I do believe these things: A dog can be upwind of a bird and you thought he ran past it. A dog can go through the narrow section of a scent cone, nearly stepping on the bird and go past it. A scent cone is like a V. The closer that dog comes to the point of the V, the less chance he has to wind it. So I don't think any dog ever over runs birds. There is always a reason. If the dog snaps his head and keeps going, he has winded the bird and not overrun it's nose, though a young dog may not be sure of what he just whiffed. I love fast dog's. They make an old heart just a bit younger.

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Re: Slowing down the dog

Post by averageguy » Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:02 am

gonehuntin' wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:59 am
I don't believe that any trained dog ever over runs his nose. I do believe these things: A dog can be upwind of a bird and you thought he ran past it. A dog can go through the narrow section of a scent cone, nearly stepping on the bird and go past it. A scent cone is like a V. The closer that dog comes to the point of the V, the less chance he has to wind it. So I don't think any dog ever over runs birds. There is always a reason. If the dog snaps his head and keeps going, he has winded the bird and not overrun it's nose, though a young dog may not be sure of what he just whiffed. I love fast dog's. They make an old heart just a bit younger.
I love a variable dog. One which hunts enough to learn that one style and speed is not always successful. A dog which learns that to find dead birds it must slow way down and search moving its head both high and low. When we are hunting the open prairies, or linear cover in a crosswind a dog hunting fast can be quite effective, particularly at finding coveys.

Spread some single bobwhites out in the dense timber/grass with little air movement and a dog which does not slow down will not be nearly as effective at nailing the singles as a dog which will. I am not the first with that school of thought. The Southern Bobwhite hunters spoke of "covey dogs" and "singles dogs" long before I took up the sport.

Maybe there is some talking past each other to some extent. In your example where the dog ran through the narrow part of the scent cone, nearly stepping on the bird that would be overrunning its nose in my verbiage (and others as I did not invent the term). Had the dog been searching more slowly it likely would have nailed that single vs blowing by it. Same for hunting dead.

A covey standing in plum thicket with some wind blowing through it is far easier for a dog to scent than is a single which has buried itself in grass in dense cover where the wind is not moving through it. Suggesting that a dog does not need to adjust its speed to find a lot of the latter is contrary to my experience in both situations.

Nmhuntr - as far as launchers go, I like em and use em in a manner highly similar to what Don F commonly posts. You can search my posts if you want to read how I go about using them. The Perfect Start and Perfect Finish DVDs provide excellent instruction on how to use them effectively to get your dog hitting its points at first scent and holding them.

I am not sure how far that will go however in teaching your dog to slow down its search. I have had dogs which learned to nail their points way off the birds using remote launchers but if anything the dog expecting to find a bird when we went training speeded him up, not slowed him down during our training sessions.

You have not shared any information as to how the dog is working birds when she does smells them. Does she nail her points or potter and road in on the scent, only pointing when after she has followed the scent in closer? The latter is a case where using the launchers can be most useful in teaching your dog to stop and point the moment she hits the scent.

Once your dog is pointing well at first scent and holding its point, only experience on the wild birds is going to teach the dog how to adjust its search (speed and pattern) and use its nose to find them in varying terrain, birds and scenting conditions.

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Re: Slowing down the dog

Post by birddogger2 » Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:29 am

Nmhuntr -

When I am steadying a youngster, I have it on a 20 ft. checkcord and bring it in, downwind and perpendicular to the scent cone of a bird planted in a remote launcher. This way, I know... precisely... where the bird is and where the scent cone is. I know again, precisely, where the dog SHOULD scent the bird.

When the dog give the slightest indication of scenting the bird as it approaches "the zone", I pop the trap and pop the checkcord. This "indication" can be as small as a slight turn of the head or a hesitation or as overt as a lock up or a lunge toward the trap. No matter.

If the dog is in "the zone" and does not indicate, I will pop the trap anyway and pop the checkcord, as I want the dog to be steady to a wild flush also. I do much the same later on, when the dog is not dragging a checkcord.

It is the concept that the scent or sight of the bird is what HAS to stop the dog that is important.

You can incorporate the concept into your training in many ways, depending on what you have to work with in terms of grounds and equipment. The dog will figure out how fast it can cover ground and still hit scent. All you need to do is provide structured opportunities, in varying types of cover and conditions and reward success.

One of the things I do to "slow down" a dog is to go back to the same training field multiple times and have the dog work out scent by placing the trap in varying locations in that field. I "teach a " hunt dead" command in the yard with treats and will use that command to encourage the youngster to slow down and cover the terrain thoroughly.
After the first couple of times in that training field, the dogs kinda know the drill and will usually dial it down and do a pretty good imitation of a Hoover.
Another thing I do...but only with a mature(3-4yr. old), well conditioned dog is to hunt or run it for several hours. If a dog knows it just might have to run for several hours, any time it is released...it WILL dial it down somewhat. At eighteen month of age, yours is waaay too young for that.

Preserve and treasure that youthful exuberance. Keep the training sessions relatively short and focused on a particular single goal. When the dog accomplishes that goal...QUIT... At least for little while. The hardest thing for the single dog owner is to learn how to quit a winner.

Have fun with your youngster. Keep taking her out and giving her opportunities to succeed. Always remember that if a dog that knows what it is looking for runs out wide to the left and wide to the right...you don't have to walk there unless the dog points something for you. I love a big running dog.

RayG

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Re: Slowing down the dog

Post by Nmhuntr » Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:35 am

Thanks for the response. My dog works in pretty close before she stops. I am talking 3 feet maybe less. As you said a launcher might be good to stop her a little further out as soon as she catches the scent. She is not giving me a stand still don’t move point either. She will typically stand in one place but her entire back end is wagging. I figure a lot of this maybe puppy still. I have seen her point a dove on one of my trees and not love a hair. But then again she knows she will not catch the dove.

Thanks a lot for your insight

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Re: Slowing down the dog

Post by cjhills » Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:13 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:59 am
I don't believe that any trained dog ever over runs his nose. I do believe these things: A dog can be upwind of a bird and you thought he ran past it. A dog can go through the narrow section of a scent cone, nearly stepping on the bird and go past it. A scent cone is like a V. The closer that dog comes to the point of the V, the less chance he has to wind it. So I don't think any dog ever over runs birds. There is always a reason. If the dog snaps his head and keeps going, he has winded the bird and not overrun it's nose, though a young dog may not be sure of what he just whiffed. I love fast dog's. They make an old heart just a bit younger.
This Is Exactly my thoughts. I Don't think an experienced dog overruns his nose. I have seen fast dogs miss birds and slow dogs miss birds. Sometimes it makes me wonder why. If he happens to be exhaling when he goes through a narrow scent cone or pass on the upwind side it may look like he over ran his nose. Not really. I prefer speed over plodders.
I have also never trained a pointing dog to hunt dead. If the dog is on point, I flush and shoot the bird, the dog marks the bird and makes a retrieve. Dogs with a lot of experience marking birds get unbelievably good at marking birds and rarely lose a bird that flies a long ways. Even on driven hunts where the drivers and posters are 400 or more yards away the dogs will mark falling birds and retrieve them. Amazes me.
I do think your dog will improve with experience. Wild birds and launchers can be used to back her off the birds and point solid. She just needs more correct bird work. I like points on singles 30 feet or more and covies 30 or more yards. I don't whoa my dogs on point but I do quietly caution the dog when I walk in for a flush........Cj

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Re: Slowing down the dog

Post by averageguy » Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:23 pm

Nmhuntr,

I am not sure how a guy who is not already experienced sorts through all the stuff he will read on a public forum.

This would be my dog pointing a single wild bobwhite on Jan 31 2018, the last day of season. The dog found and pointed 7 coveys and a bunch of singles that day. He is pointing a single in this photo. A dog cannot and will not find and point singles in that cover without adjusting its speed.

Image

The dog recovered all of the 2 man limit of 16 birds that hit the ground that day alive or dead. With two hunters shooting at different birds in that amount of cover it was unavoidable and to be expected that there were birds knocked down which the dog had no mark on.

Only by developing this dog to "Hunt Dead" were we able to recover 100% of our birds on that hunt. If you search "Start em Young" you will find a thread I posted where I lay out my approach to developing my dogs to excel at "Hunting Dead" and recovering an extremely high percentage of the birds we shoot down.

There is some good advice (and otherwise) in this thread but no amount of typing here is as good as the DVDs I recommended. If you want to best prepare yourself to bring your pup along, buying, studying and applying them will be the best money and time you could spend.

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Re: Slowing down the dog

Post by gonehuntin' » Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:33 pm

averageguy wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:02 am
Maybe there is some talking past each other to some extent. In your example where the dog ran through the narrow part of the scent cone, nearly stepping on the bird that would be overrunning its nose in my verbiage (and others as I did not invent the term). Had the dog been searching more slowly it likely would have nailed that single vs blowing by it. Same for hunting dead.
A dog hunts at IT'S speed, not ours. In my opinion, you can neither make a dog hunt slower or faster unless you're a hacker. God gave them their range and God gave them their speed. Certainly ALL dogs should hunt more slowly and deliberately when entering the area of a fall but in the bird field they can't know when they're hunting a single and when a covey. Thus, in my view, if the fast dog ran through that bird, it would not have over run it; he simply inhaled instead of exhaled. Will the fast dog's blow more birds? Maybe, but they'll also pin a heck of a lot more wild birds than a slow dog. Doesn't matter grouse or pheasant, a fast dog solidly pins more birds. I'm a speed junky. I like fast dog's.

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Re: Slowing down the dog

Post by Nmhuntr » Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:21 pm

I like her speed as well. She is a small dog with long legs and gets around really fast. I am more confident after reading the many replys that she will be fine as she is. I will work a little with a release system in order to get her to whoa a little further out but she is a smart dog and as stated she will likely learn the right speed. This is about her training me as much as it is me training her.

Thanks

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Re: Slowing down the dog

Post by gonehuntin' » Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:25 pm

Nmhuntr wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:21 pm
I like her speed as well. She is a small dog with long legs and gets around really fast. I am more confident after reading the many replys that she will be fine as she is. I will work a little with a release system in order to get her to whoa a little further out but she is a smart dog and as stated she will likely learn the right speed. This is about her training me as much as it is me training her.

Thanks
Thing you want to watch for is that she doesn't "creep" on you. When she scents that bird, she should stop and lock up, period. If she then inches closer, it's creeping and that's when electronic traps are invaluable. As soon as she moves a muscle, pop the bird. Another thing: Don't let her chase. Chasing never did anything for a dog but give you another problem to correct.

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Re: Slowing down the dog

Post by Nmhuntr » Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:32 pm

I agree with the chasing thing. In my opinion it is bad training and could be unsafe in the field. Glad to say she does not chase and as soon as I tell he she will fetch dead.

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Re: Slowing down the dog

Post by averageguy » Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:36 pm

I like a fast dog when fast works best, and the same dog being smart and experienced enough to throttle back from than that when being effective at finding birds requires it.

That dog clocks 10-11 MPH average speed over a days hunting having learned to pace himself for a lot of hunting on a lot of days. He is smart and experienced enough to know when he needs to slow down and the photo in my post above is an example of it. He had pointed the covey in the photo below, I flushed and my Buddy managed to downed a bird.

After recovering and retrieving the downed bird, the dog most certainly knew we were in pursuit of the birds which flew deeper into that cover and he had the sense/experience to not run through it at the same speed he works in open country.

I did nothing to train the dog on his speed or range other than my pace when walking him as a puppy and adjusting my pace while hunting to keep from pushing him too fast when the singles are scattered in heavy cover. No hacking, whistling, check cording, ecollar. On that I am a Ben O Williams type I guess.

Teamwork between the dog and the Hunter.

I am not urging or advocating that Nmhuntr attempt to specifically adjust his dog's speed beyond giving the dog many opportunities to work birds and learn on its own that one speed does not work best in all covers/birds/scenting conditions. Some launcher bird work to get the young dog popping into its points vs roading in on scent will be beneficial as discussed. Then onto the wild birds is my advocacy.

Not all bird fields are created equal either. Here is the covey point that preceded some singles work. Another find in heavy cover.

Image

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Re: Slowing down the dog

Post by birddogger2 » Mon Mar 04, 2019 3:36 pm

Nmhuntr wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:21 pm
I like her speed as well. She is a small dog with long legs and gets around really fast. I am more confident after reading the many replys that she will be fine as she is. I will work a little with a release system in order to get her to whoa a little further out but she is a smart dog and as stated she will likely learn the right speed. This is about her training me as much as it is me training her.

Thanks
Your comments regarding your youngster are very typical of a young dog that is still figuring it out. I encourage you to invest in or borrow a remote launcher and work on stopping the dog on first scent. From what you have said, the dog is roading in on its birds and the looseness in the back end is usually an indication that the dog is looking to chase and catch. You really need to work on that.

One thing you can do is, after the bird is launched and flies away, is to style the dog up AFTER the bird is gone by stroking it gently from head to tail until the wiggling stops or at least greatly subsides. If the dog has attempted to chase, you might physically pick the dog up, move it back to somewhere near it where it was when the bird launched, and then place it down front first and then gently lower the back end. Finsh by stroking the dog up, head to tail. When the dog is as settled as it is going to get...walk out front, slip a training bird out of your bird bag and let it fly from behind your back. Go to the dog and stroke it up some more and then take the dog out of there, physically carrying it out if you can. If the dog stands for the tossed bird...THAT is one to quit on.

Take your time, be patient, be soft spoken, if you have to say anything at all and be gentle...but be persistent and also be insistent that the dog do it right.

RayG

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Re: Slowing down the dog

Post by gonehuntin' » Mon Mar 04, 2019 4:07 pm

averageguy wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:36 pm

That dog clocks 10-11 MPH average speed over a days hunting having learned to pace himself for a lot of hunting on a lot of days. He is smart and experienced enough to know when he needs to slow down and the photo in my post above is an example of it. He had pointed the covey in the photo below, I flushed and my Buddy managed to downed a bird.
Image
Other than the GSP, most versatile are not built for speed. Mine are like yours, trot along at 10-11 mph. Open country 11-12. Heavy brush, 7-8. When you set them down next to an EP or ES, they look pitiful, speed wise. Not their fault, that's how they're built. As a kid I loved fast bikes and fast cars. Still do though I've given up the fast bikes. Fast dogs thrill me, lift the hackles on my neck and just trip my trigger. Last ES I owned, a trial bred dog. Would hunt all day at 18 mph. What a beast. Still miss him.

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Re: Slowing down the dog

Post by averageguy » Mon Mar 04, 2019 4:35 pm

Here's the thing GH.

I have hunted with Pro String EPs and a few ES in the mix. High powered dogs bred, trained and handled by some highly accomplished folks. I agree it is thrilling to watch and I enjoy it a bunch.

But only the best ones in those strings have out birded my dog for covey finds and the margin has been not that large, them hunting on their home turf, my dog coming from a 1000 miles away, much younger with far less experience. My dog found as many or more coveys as all but the top dogs in those strings.

The top dogs in those strings would best a bunch of dogs and are a treat to hunt behind for sure.

But now to my point. Not one of them has come close to out birding my dog on the singles. They just ran too fast to do effective work on singles.

And none of them have remotely held a candle to my dog for hunting dead. The ones that would hunt dead at all were often hard mouthed. Waterfowl, Doves, Blood tracking not even on the table.

Always tradeoffs is what I see.

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Re: Slowing down the dog

Post by gonehuntin' » Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:18 pm

Funny, my experiences do not mirror that at all. As you know, I've run the slower dogs for the last V dogs for quite a few years now, about 15. I ran labs a lot longer. The last two setters I had many who hunted behind them thought the perfect duo. Taz would move like the prairie wind, ranging to 500 yards and back. Nate, Mr. Methodical, was an 80 yard dog. Together we swept the prairies and woods, Taz combing the horizons for the distant birds. Both found birds. BUT the only time Nate out produced Taz was when he hunted quadrants Taz had not been through. Since Taz was covering about five times the country's Nate did, he found about three times the birds. Law of averages said he had to; he was covering five times the ground. It was a rare day indeed when Nate could out produce him. I Can also honestly say that I never really saw Taz miss a bird Nate picked up. If he was downwind and in range, that was a dead bird.

In the trials if, as you claim, a slow dog would out produce a fast dog, you could run in the horseback stakes and beat the dogs. I seriously doubt that day will ever come. I'm not a trial guy but hopefully Don. Ray and the other trial guys will jump in here with their opinions.

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Re: Slowing down the dog

Post by cjhills » Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:02 pm

It Really defies logic to believe any GWP would find more coveys than a string of big running setters and pointers, simply because they cover so much more ground. Obviously the dog has to throttle back in heavy cover...…….Cj

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Re: Slowing down the dog

Post by averageguy » Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:31 pm

GH, I have been talking about speed which is what the OP's buddy thinks is contributing to his young dog not finding the planted birds. None of us have seen the dog, but that was his buddy's opinion who has seen the dog working.

You are comparing ranges - your 500 yard dog to your 80 yard dog which is a pretty extreme difference. The EPs I mentioned and my Dog's range differences were no where near that extreme and my dog will commonly range out over 300 yards in open country. As I posted, the best of those EPs did find more coveys, but not more singles.

I never said the slower dog would find more coveys in open country, I said a dog which never slows down most often does not do great work on singles, particularly in heavy cover. And they aren't worth a toot for hunting dead. An opinion I developed from observation of enough dogs, hunts and years to stick by it.

I assume the OP's training setups are on individual birds and that was why I related my observation about a dog needing to slow down to do good work on singles, to his post that his young dog is working fast and not picking up on the training birds.

I think folks erroneously equate what they like to see best in a dog working with it is always most effective. Just because it is breathtaking when a fast going dog slams into its points does not mean it finds more birds in all terrains and conditions. And I think more than the most number of finds enters into who wins a FT although I posted no opinion on the subject.

I am not sure about any dog running 18 mph all day. Even 3 hours at that pace is 54 miles. I expect that will gas the best of them.

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Re: Slowing down the dog

Post by averageguy » Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:42 pm

cjhills wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:02 pm
It Really defies logic to believe any GWP would find more coveys than a string of big running setters and pointers, simply because they cover so much more ground. Obviously the dog has to throttle back in heavy cover...…….Cj
I do not think all dogs have an equal ability to focus and scent as they run. They are not all equal in how intelligent their ground pattern and use of wind is either. More to finding birds than just running big and fast.

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Re: Slowing down the dog

Post by cjhills » Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:39 am

Your dog will very likely be fine with more experience.
There is no reason to think a slow dog finds more birds than a fast dog or vicversa. As AG says it is about ground application and intelligience. We can"t just assume a slow dog is more intelligent than a fast dog. We do know late season pheasants hold much better for fast dogs and, for me at least the only time I feel really good is when I am hunting over a pretty fast dog.
Don't try to slow your dog down get some training and bird work on her and I think you will really like how she hunts.
.....Cj

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Re: Slowing down the dog

Post by averageguy » Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:55 am

Nmhuntr,

Hopefully you will find some value in my posts.

A summary of what I posted is that dogs are more effective once they learn to adjust their speed to the conditions they are hunting in. Many young dogs overrun their noses, I have seen it many times across many dogs and breeds. Experience teaches them when they need to slow down or speed up. Cover and scenting conditions are two big factors in that.

P.S. My dog and I did very well hunting wild roosters in 4 states this past season and once again a fast working dog is not always best in all situations. Cattail Sloughs being an obvious one. My dog pointing another rooster in Cattails. The need for a dog to slow down in that dense cover is self-evident.

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Re: Slowing down the dog

Post by cjhills » Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:34 am

Nmnuntr:
One final Thought. Don't fight or inhibit your pup's natural ability, enhance it. You will both be happier....Cj

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Re: Slowing down the dog

Post by averageguy » Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:13 am

Nmhuntr,

it is easy to take and post a video of your dog working. Doing so is leaps and bounds better information for those you are soliciting advice from to give you the best advice.

I noticed just now that back in Sept you posted your pup was standing over the top of birds with its nose inches away from the bird, wagging its tail and then turning and walking away from the bird.

Seems there is more to this post with that background coming to light.

Is there a chance your pup is deliberately blinking the birds vs just not smelling them? Blinking meaning the dog knows the bird is there but is dilberately avoiding the bird.

As was posted in your prior thread and now this one, a proper use of strong flying pigeons in launchers can be very effective at addressing a dog roading in on top of birds. The same advice given back in Sept is what several have posted here, including the same DVD was recommended by someone else in Sept that I also recommended here.

I can easily see a pup which has been allowed to road in on top of a planted bird, doing so. But the expected norm from there is the pup will then pounce on it and either catch it or chase it when the bird flies. Turning and walking away from the bird may well indicate a different issue.

What is your pup doing now when it finds a bird?

Still standing over the top and wagging its tail? Still walking away from the bird? Has the pup been scolded for catching birds it was standing over the top of?

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Re: Slowing down the dog

Post by collinedward » Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:57 pm

Classic GDF replies. Most responses on here turn into a d ic k measuring contest and the OP never gets a honest or good answer.

OP do yourself a favor and search on Facebook for gun dog or upland hunting groups. People in those groups tend to be friendlier since their real name and picture are attached to their response.

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Re: Slowing down the dog

Post by Sharon » Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:25 pm

I can't participate in that contest , but also can't agree with your perspective. Sure, lots of different opinions given; that's what a forum is all about; members decide whose opinion they can trust. Lots of good advice given on here.

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Re: Slowing down the dog

Post by gonehuntin' » Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:17 pm

averageguy wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:31 pm

I am not sure about any dog running 18 mph all day. Even 3 hours at that pace is 54 miles. I expect that will gas the best of them.
I think you assume we hunt the same type of country and we don't. When I hunt the West, it's rare I can spend more than an hour or hour and a half in any cover, than we drive to a different area. It's hard to hunt more than three areas a day. So common sense I tastes a dog doesn't run 6 hours straight.

It is also common sense that every dog I have ever seen adjusts his speed and range to cover. From grouse to pheasant. If I ever owned a dog that didn't, I wouldn't.

I don't hunt covey birds, so when I speak of a fast dog finding more birds, I'm speaking of singles. I never hunt bobwhite and rarely get chances at Huns.

I don't believe it's possible for a dog to overrun his nose. I believe a dog may blink a bird. He may run upwind of a bird. The breeze may bounce off of a rock or clump of brush as the dog goes by, thus drifting the scent back to the bird and not the dog. He may run virtually over the top of the bird where there is little or no scent. Some dogs just aren't blessed with a nose and those few would run past a skunk.

We can never know for sure why a dog blows past a bird but if it's a BIRD DOG, it will not over run its nose.

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Re: Slowing down the dog

Post by Nmhuntr » Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:44 pm

AG

She is holding now and has backed off a couple of feet. Getting on wild birds has helped that. I was just concerned about her speed. After all of the post I have read here I believe she is fine. More exposure is likely the best answer. I don’t scold her for any bird she finds or flushes.

Thanks

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Re: Slowing down the dog

Post by cjhills » Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:11 pm

Sharon wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:25 pm
I can't participate in that contest , but also can't agree with your perspective. Sure, lots of different opinions given; that's what a forum is all about; members decide whose opinion they can trust. Lots of good advice given on here.
You would probably win with all of us old dudes. :lol: …..Cj

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Re: Slowing down the dog

Post by ON Honker Hunter » Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:06 pm

An interesting dialogue. I have a Fr Britt and a couple of black Labs. We hunt publicly accessible land in Montana every year and by the time we get there after goose hunting is done here, the pheasants are spooky. This past fall was the worst year for numbers by far that I've yet seen. The birds were very few and incredibly spooky. Guys with pointers or setters that ranged eighty to five hundred yards were flat SOL! No way would a bird hold long enough to catch up to a dog on point that far away. Heck, towards the end the dang things went airborne fifty yards away from the dogs or me! In those situations it's pretty much a job for close working flushing dogs and hope a bird makes a mistake. Even though she works fairly close for a pointing dog, this year it was mostly a spectator sport for my poor little Britt, especially those last few weeks.

Curious about advice to avoid letting the dog "chase" a bird. How else do you recover cripples? Or are you guys talking about birds not wounded that do a runner?

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Re: Slowing down the dog

Post by Nmhuntr » Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:12 pm

My Brittany will hold until I release her. She has retrieved a wounded bird to me before but unless I shoot she does not get released and the command is fetch dead. If I miss or she flushes I say No Bird which is her queen to ignore the airborne bird and continue to hunt.

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Re: Slowing down the dog

Post by gonehuntin' » Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:19 pm

collinedward wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:57 pm
Classic GDF replies. Most responses on here turn into a d ic k measuring contest and the OP never gets a honest or good answer.

OP do yourself a favor and search on Facebook for gun dog or upland hunting groups. People in those groups tend to be friendlier since their real name and picture are attached to their response.
At least on the four boards I'm on, nothing could be further from the truth. Two prohibit training posts because of the animosity they generate. I'd say the worst advice on the net is on FB and very poorly moderated. This board, IMO, has the best bird dog advice on the net. If you think you're going to go anywhere and find everyone in agreement om training methods and dogs, boy are you mistaken.

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Re: Slowing down the dog

Post by gonehuntin' » Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:23 pm

ON Honker Hunter wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:06 pm
An interesting dialogue. I have a Fr Britt and a couple of black Labs. We hunt publicly accessible land in Montana every year and by the time we get there after goose hunting is done here, the pheasants are spooky. This past fall was the worst year for numbers by far that I've yet seen. The birds were very few and incredibly spooky. Guys with pointers or setters that ranged eighty to five hundred yards were flat SOL! No way would a bird hold long enough to catch up to a dog on point that far away. Heck, towards the end the dang things went airborne fifty yards away from the dogs or me! In those situations it's pretty much a job for close working flushing dogs and hope a bird makes a mistake. Even though she works fairly close for a pointing dog, this year it was mostly a spectator sport for my poor little Britt, especially those last few weeks.

Curious about advice to avoid letting the dog "chase" a bird. How else do you recover cripples? Or are you guys talking about birds not wounded that do a runner?
A lot of us have dogs steady to wing, shot and fall. They're released on command.

You're right about spooky birds; late season roosters in heavy cover is where the flusher excels.

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Re: Slowing down the dog

Post by averageguy » Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:12 am

ON Honker Hunter wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:06 pm
An interesting dialogue. I have a Fr Britt and a couple of black Labs. We hunt publicly accessible land in Montana every year and by the time we get there after goose hunting is done here, the pheasants are spooky. This past fall was the worst year for numbers by far that I've yet seen. The birds were very few and incredibly spooky. Guys with pointers or setters that ranged eighty to five hundred yards were flat SOL! No way would a bird hold long enough to catch up to a dog on point that far away. Heck, towards the end the dang things went airborne fifty yards away from the dogs or me! In those situations it's pretty much a job for close working flushing dogs and hope a bird makes a mistake. Even though she works fairly close for a pointing dog, this year it was mostly a spectator sport for my poor little Britt, especially those last few weeks.

Curious about advice to avoid letting the dog "chase" a bird. How else do you recover cripples? Or are you guys talking about birds not wounded that do a runner?
My ole GWP Jack with his last limit of wild public land roosters taken on the last day of season. He was 12. We limited out 3 times on public land that last week of season. I took Jack's first limit of wild roosters when he was 8 months old. He was a pointing dog who learned how to handle them well in a variety of conditions and cover, from opening day to the last day.

Like all my GWPs, he remained steady to wing but broke to retrieve when the birds fell, which keeps the dog safely out of the line of fire but swift on the birds. My preference, not to be confused with a need to talk anyone else into it as I am sick and tired of every post I make on this site becoming an argument.

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Re: Slowing down the dog

Post by ON Honker Hunter » Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:46 am

averageguy wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:12 am
My ole GWP Jack with his last limit of wild public land roosters taken on the last day of season. He was 12. We limited out 3 times on public land that last week of season. I took Jack's first limit of wild roosters when he was 8 months old. He was a pointing dog who learned how to handle them well in a variety of conditions and cover, from opening day to the last day.

Like all my GWPs, he remained steady to wing but broke to retrieve when the birds fell, which keeps the dog safely out of the line of fire but swift on the birds. My preference, not to be confused with a need to talk anyone else into it as I am sick and tired of every post I make on this site becoming an argument.
This is my older Lab, Opal, and the only daily limit I've shot in Montana over the last two years (one other daily limit in 2017 but one bird was a cripple the dogs caught). Boy, has it been tough hunting! Just no birds. I only saw one flock of Huns last fall ... on the same place where I often see three or four coveys. Sharpies were almost nonexistent too. I wouldn't take a shot at either even it presented itself. The only reason I hunted pheasants is because the males are identifiable and one rooster can service a hundred hens in the spring. To put things into perspective, four years ago I shot fourteen daily limits in Montana before quitting early and coming back to Ontario. Anyway, I was tickled that old Opal got these three birds on an afternoon when I hunted her alone. She's ageing fast and will be twelve in a couple of months. Likely her last trip "home" (I bought her in Great Falls). She was the fastest starter of all my dogs, doing everything (even the occasional point) at just three months.

My dogs break on shot and I'm okay with that, mostly because I almost always hunt alone and am aware of it. Sometimes I have to hold off shooting again at other birds over the field decoys if the dogs are after a honker already dropped. Oh well. There's plenty more birds to shoot. And I get more honkers than I can eat anyway. I don't want the dogs waiting for a pheasant to drop before breaking. I'm fine with them chasing after the bird. Twice this past year Ellie ran after roosters that went out of sight and she came back with both. Gut shot they can sometimes fly quite a ways before dying. That dog has an absolutely uncanny ability to mark birds. Never seen anything like it. Even in super thick stuff like tulies and bull rushes. Some kind of instinctive radar. Incidentally, I hunt geese from cover on the edge of fields. Don't own a layout blind. If I did, it would probably be a different story with breaking on shot.
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Re: Slowing down the dog

Post by birds » Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:59 am

"To put things into perspective, four years ago I shot fourteen daily limits in Montana before quitting early and coming back to Ontario."

That's 42 roosters. If you also had some days where you didn't shoot the daily 3 you must have been eating a lot of pheasants while you were here.

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Re: Slowing down the dog

Post by averageguy » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:23 am

ON Honker Hunter,

Tip of the cap to the old dogs giving it their all in the field. I was enjoying the big up cycle of birds in the Dakotas during the same era. I hope we and our dogs live to see it again, but have concerns as droughts and CRP acreage allotment declines reduce habitat.

On the steadiness, I train for steady to WSF for upland and then let my dogs backslide to Steady to Wing while hunting wild upland birds. Works out well or I would do something different, but also key is I hunt alone a bunch and cannot mount, swing and shoot my shotgun on rapidly departing birds while keeping one eye on the dog and a third hand on the ecollar transmitter to get a timely correction in.

The large majority of my waterfowl hunting is over a water decoy spread. Cripples that fall within range will be shot on the water before the dog is sent to retrieve, and those cripples that fall too far out to shoot are the ones I want my dog going after first vs the dead ones in the decoy spread which are not at risk to be lost. And unlike a lot of my upland hunts I am most often hunting with a partner when over a decoy spread, so easy enough to let a hunting buddy shoot while I keep the dog honest if need be early in a hunt. Also easy to stake a dog down as well to re-enforce training. For all those reasons I train to keep my dog steady all the way through the fall when hunting waterfowl and then maintain those standards while hunting.

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Re: Slowing down the dog

Post by ON Honker Hunter » Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:24 am

birds wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:59 am
"To put things into perspective, four years ago I shot fourteen daily limits in Montana before quitting early and coming back to Ontario."

That's 42 roosters. If you also had some days where you didn't shoot the daily 3 you must have been eating a lot of pheasants while you were here.
I have family and friends there. Yes, we eat quite a few. Possession is nine and that's all I can bring back. I never have more than that in the trailer's fridge/freezer at any given time. That year I stopped at fifty and left for home early once I realized I'd shot so many. Kinda felt bad. Should have been keeping closer track. But it was a very plentiful year. Last fall I maybe shot twenty. Understand that I'm usually in Montana every fall hunting (well, mostly hunting) for six weeks.

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Re: Slowing down the dog

Post by birds » Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:39 am

Thanks for the clarification.

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Re: Slowing down the dog

Post by ON Honker Hunter » Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:02 pm

averageguy wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:23 am
ON Honker Hunter,

Tip of the cap to the old dogs giving it their all in the field. I was enjoying the big up cycle of birds in the Dakotas during the same era. I hope we and our dogs live to see it again, but have concerns as droughts and CRP acreage allotment declines reduce habitat.

On the steadiness, I train for steady to WSF for upland and then let my dogs backslide to Steady to Wing while hunting wild upland birds. Works out well or I would do something different, but also key is I hunt alone a bunch and cannot mount, swing and shoot my shotgun on rapidly departing birds while keeping one eye on the dog and a third hand on the ecollar transmitter to get a timely correction in.

The large majority of my waterfowl hunting is over a water decoy spread. Cripples that fall within range will be shot on the water before the dog is sent to retrieve, and those cripples that fall too far out to shoot are the ones I want my dog going after first vs the dead ones in the decoy spread which are not at risk to be lost. And unlike a lot of my upland hunts I am most often hunting with a partner when over a decoy spread, so easy enough to let a hunting buddy shoot while I keep the dog honest if need be early in a hunt. Also easy to stake a dog down as well to re-enforce training. For all those reasons I train to keep my dog steady all the way through the fall when hunting waterfowl and then maintain those standards while hunting.
Over the last half century I have actually done very little hunting over water with decoys. In my younger days before everything was clobbered up with subdevelopment, I enjoyed jump shooting ducks (and the odd goose) on farm creeks in Montana. Here waterfowl hunting over fields is excellent because we only have a very small farming area south of town but lots of water and we're in the centre of a large migration pattern. The dairy farmers' grain/corn fields are all relatively small with brushy fence lines or adjacent woodlots. And we're on the leading edge of the migration so ducks and geese aren't wised up yet. But they are very hungry! Still, they are often wary of landing close to edge of the fields (we aren't the only predators lurking in the trees) so my deeks are usually set up 40-50 yards out. I try to situate myself downwind of them so the birds have to come in over me to land. It's mostly pass shooting or crossers at 40-45 yards which I find much more enjoyable than blasting them to bits at 15-20 yards while laying in the decoys. Also, I can usually get to my feet to shoot which is a lot more fun than shooting off my arse. And all three dogs can hunt with me too (bright white Puppy knows she has to be well back in the cover). If I did hunt over water more I would definitely have to do something different re dogs breaking on shot. For pheasants the sooner the dogs are on a crippled rooster, the better the chance they'll catch him. Those devils have a way of outrunning their scent I swear. And crippled Huns! Those little things can just flat dematerialize in a split second if a tire isn't shot out.

I did have one issue with breaking on shot last year. An older novice from the trap club had been after me to teach him the ropes on goose hunting so I took him along. First off, while I walked across the field to push up a big flock of ducks that landed on the other side, a honker came to the decoys. He let it land then shot it in the deeks. Put a couple of holes in two of them. I was not very pleased about that but they are tough shells and easy enough to repair. Then the honkers finally started coming en mass. I waited for him to fan twice on the first flock before knocking one down. It's mate decided to land next to it. Of course Ellie is off and running before the smoke clears. She got to the first one that was dead on impact, then the other one honked at her. She ran to it and it jumped in the air. By this time the other fella had reloaded and shot right over my dog! "NO, gawdamit!" He held his fire, fortunately! The goose landed again, and Ellie went after it again. This time it finally decided to give up and leave but I had moved in the cover to intercept. Once it was up in the air well ahead of the dog, I dumped it at about fifty yards out. "Good shot, Pat!" "Yeah, well yours was a BAD shot. You will NEVER shoot over my dog again." I left him home for a few days to think about it but eventually accepted I was to blame too. My dogs are not trained to hunt with someone else and I should have been a better mentor. So he still comes out with me from time to time. A painfully nice guy and I enjoy his company (a rare thing for me). Lesson learned for both of us.

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