Using e collar

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MHWH
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Using e collar

Post by MHWH » Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:41 pm

Using a collar with tone, vibration and stimulation available what do you guys use, and for what.

I am think of using the vibration as a warning before using the stim. Then using the tone like the whistle where 3 tweets is for here, 2 is for sit, or whoa, and one is change direction.

How are you guys using the different options?

Thanks, Mike

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Re: Using e collar

Post by Sharon » Sun Mar 03, 2019 2:36 pm

Sounds complicated.
I have an ecollar with a vibrating tab, locator tab and correction tab. I probably use the correction tab once every 6 months( on the JRT) and never have used the vibrating tab for any dogs. I don't believe in warnings. I used to work at the jail so one quick correction was the solution. :) Not sure I believe that the dogs says , "I just got a warning ; I'd better do what I am suppose to or I'm going to get a correction ."
I use the locator tab daily for both dogs. It is a great feature when I'm not sure where my old girl is ( 13).

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Re: Using e collar

Post by CDN_Cocker » Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:00 pm

Vibration is much more pressure than a nick. Remember that. You're not being kinder by using vibrate.

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Re: Using e collar

Post by cjhills » Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:50 pm

I have always used Garmin Tritronics Field 70. 6 stim levels. All I ever use is stim. Low level for training. High level for trash breaking and deer chasing. Never used the tone and don't have or need vibrate or nick...………..CJ

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Re: Using e collar

Post by birddogger2 » Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:44 am

MHWH wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:41 pm
Using a collar with tone, vibration and stimulation available what do you guys use, and for what.

I am think of using the vibration as a warning before using the stim. Then using the tone like the whistle where 3 tweets is for here, 2 is for sit, or whoa, and one is change direction.

How are you guys using the different options?

Thanks, Mike
I have an older TriTronics with just stim and a newer DT unit with vibe, tone and stim.

I am using the newer unit on two young dogs with vibe or nick(low level) as a compliance tool. On both dogs I use the collar on the belly when training, especially around birds. I only use the tone feature as a "callback" to the dog. For trained dogs, the TriTronics, on the neck, is what gets used. Simple and effective.

I have really only two whistle signals. One is a toot-toot toot-toot toot that I use when releasing a dog to encourage it to run at full speed. The second is a two blast whistle which is a "Come in NOW" command. For anything else I use voice.

RayG

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Re: Using e collar

Post by gonehuntin' » Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:38 pm

Never, ever, warn a dog. Correct or command, but never warn. If you do, you'll be well on your way to creating an unresponsive dog. If it's worth "warning" a dog, it's worth correcting a dog. In the old days we COULDN'T warn, only punish. My new collar has, as yours, tone, zap and vibration. I use the tone to silently correct the dog's range or I zap it. That is. K.I.S.S. A tone on the collar is the same as two blasts of my whistle. Be aware also that the tone button on a collar, at least the Alpha, is not as precise as the whistle.

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Re: Using e collar

Post by averageguy » Mon Mar 04, 2019 3:10 pm

I am using a Garmin Pro 550 Plus. So I have 18 levels of either momentary or continuous stimulation, Tone and Vibrate. I use the lowest stimulation level which is effective for the dog and the task at hand when training and correcting. I train recall to my voice command first, then I add the pea side whistle and finally the ecollar tone. All 3 cues mean come to me. Once trained I use the ecollar tone the most and we can hunt in silence that way.

I have not used the Vibrate feature. I expect it could be put to some productive use but I have not done so. I have toyed with training it as an overlaid cue on the already trained Whoa command so that I can Whoa the dog silently while hunting. I envision it might come in handy on hard running birds when I am falling behind and need to catch up with the dog. I have yet to attempt it however as I am not keen on interfering with a dog working birds. So undecided on that here.

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Re: Using e collar

Post by Coveyrise64 » Mon Mar 04, 2019 3:38 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:38 pm
,,,, Be aware also that the tone button on a collar, at least the Alpha, is not as precise as the whistle.
Just curious....can you explain what you mean about the tone on the alpha not being as precise as the whistle?

cr

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Re: Using e collar

Post by gonehuntin' » Mon Mar 04, 2019 4:13 pm

Coveyrise64 wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 3:38 pm
gonehuntin' wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:38 pm
,,,, Be aware also that the tone button on a collar, at least the Alpha, is not as precise as the whistle.
Just curious....can you explain what you mean about the tone on the alpha not being as precise as the whistle?

cr
Let me start with the whistle. My dog's are trained that one blast is whoa, two is no, three is here. I have experimented with the Alpha a lot, holding the collar near my ear and hitting buttons. It is very difficult to get a one, two or three sequence. When you hit T it may not work if too light a tap or you may get three if held too long. It is difficult to use. To circumvent that problem, I simple use it to mean NO, no matter how many tones they get. NO, you're too far out. Get back here. I would never use NO if they chases a fly away, deer, etc. I'd use ZAP.

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Re: Using e collar

Post by Coveyrise64 » Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:26 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 4:13 pm
Coveyrise64 wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 3:38 pm
gonehuntin' wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:38 pm
,,,, Be aware also that the tone button on a collar, at least the Alpha, is not as precise as the whistle.
Just curious....can you explain what you mean about the tone on the alpha not being as precise as the whistle?

cr
Let me start with the whistle. My dog's are trained that one blast is whoa, two is no, three is here. I have experimented with the Alpha a lot, holding the collar near my ear and hitting buttons. It is very difficult to get a one, two or three sequence. When you hit T it may not work if too light a tap or you may get three if held too long. It is difficult to use. To circumvent that problem, I simple use it to mean NO, no matter how many tones they get. NO, you're too far out. Get back here. I would never use NO if they chases a fly away, deer, etc. I'd use ZAP.
Thanks.....that's pretty complicated for using the tone button.

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Re: Using e collar

Post by ON Honker Hunter » Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:20 am

Fifty-four years of raising hunting dogs and no e-collars. Not even for my Fr Britt. With her and the two Labs I can hunt any one, two, or all three at a time no problem because I am in control. "Hup" gets their attention. Whistle and point to my side brings them back (or else!). Wherever I point is where they go. Deer, rabbits, squirrels, badgers, whatever are no problem. "Leave it alone" and they do. They know what "Wait!" and "Stay back! [behind me]" means. I don't know of any brand e-collar that can differentiate those commands.

I believe it is important for my dogs to respond to me, not some electronic gadget. Not even through some electronic gadget. A couple of times I have hunted with other guys who had issues with collars breaking down or, in one case, inexplicably disappearing. Their dogs were useless without the collars working. I never break down and my battery lasts longer than the dogs'. Fortunately I have lots of time to work with them. Before I retired, not so much ... but I made the time.

"Warning" a dog with electronics sounds counterproductive to me. Overly complicates for no good reason. A dog that needs lots of correction is likely one that's on the "simple" side (and yes, there are smart dogs and there are less smarter dogs). Making things complicated for people who are intellectually challenged never works so why would it work any differently with a dog? And a stubborn dog is simply going to ignore warning messages so why bother? Get right to the point when correction is needed and get it over with.

The biggest reason I've never been attracted to e-collars is the fiddle-factor. I want both hands on the gun when I'm hunting uplands. I certainly don't want to have to look for a remote when bringing the dog into line is urgently needed. And I sure as heck don't want one dangling around my neck!

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Re: Using e collar

Post by cjhills » Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:03 am

Honker:
Very few people are capable of training a dog without some form of long range control. Of course a dog can be trained without a collar, it is done all the time. If your hunting partners dogs are out of control without collars it is because they were not trained properly. Don't blame the ecollar.
We all have a choice. We all have a choice, but proper use of a modern ecollar makes life easier for the dog and the trainer. I do like a simple system, but the "fiddle factor" is no more than it is on a whistle......Cj

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Re: Using e collar

Post by ON Honker Hunter » Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:42 am

cjhills wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:03 am
Honker:
Very few people are capable of training a dog without some form of long range control. Of course a dog can be trained without a collar, it is done all the time. If your hunting partners dogs are out of control without collars it is because they were not trained properly. Don't blame the ecollar.
We all have a choice. We all have a choice, but proper use of a modern ecollar makes life easier for the dog and the trainer. I do like a simple system, but the "fiddle factor" is no more than it is on a whistle......Cj
If very few people are capable of training a dog without an e-collar then how could it be done "all the time?" I think the problem is very few people believe they can train a dog without using an e-collar so very few people try. There are many variables involved that determine the potential usefulness of an e-collar, and in my opinion "long range" should be way at the bottom of the list. First, of course, is time. Do you have the time to work with a dog and get basic obedience established? I always made time. And living with my dogs is IMMENSELY helpful. I can certainly picture what a challenge this overly exuberant almost four year-old (day after tomorrow) Lab would be if she was stuffed in a kennel outside all the time. Second on the list is the kind of dog that's being worked. Some dogs are particularly hard-headed no matter what the breed. I have encountered one Lab (my brother's) during my life that was absolutely incorrigible. Don't know if e-collar would have helped because none were around then. He became someone else's problem eventually. Some pointer/setter breeds have been bred to run and that instinct can be hard to control. If it needs to be controlled. Which brings me to the third factor: the game and terrain. Hunting public land for pheasants late in the season is not a job for "long distance" hunting dogs! Maybe it works for plantation quail but I've never been in a situation where I could try that style of hunting. A running dog does not work in the grouse woods! Probably not for woodcock either (but again I have no experience). An e-collar on a waterfowl dog is pretty much a decoration. They rarely need that kind of "long distance" guidance ... or much of any extra guidance. Retrievers are generally much more level tempered and not as "wild" as most pointing breeds. The ancestor of today's Lab was painstakingly bred to be a wanting-to-please companion as much as a retriever (of fishing nets originally). Generally speaking, they are one of the most pliable hunting dogs. And finally, for those who want to compete with their dogs, the level of intricate performance required might be easier to achieve with electronics. My dogs were always hunting dogs, not show dogs. It is only important to me that they stay out of trouble, find and retrieve downed birds, and stay reasonably close while I'm hunting. First and last are more or less dependent on established basic obedience before we ever hit the fields. Locating and retrieving birds (and even tendency to work close) is pretty much in their genes already. Or it should be.

It's too bad there aren't more guys like me out there who advocate for the other method of training (the one that's as old as man's relationship with domestic dogs). Maybe then more prospective gun dog owners would have more faith in themselves. And I think that is the key to a successful relationship with any dog: being convinced that YOU can do it is basic to being in control. This young Lab I have now has been the greatest challenge of my life. She is complex. Not hardheaded or stupid. In fact, she's a truly lovely, desperate-to-give-love dog. But in the field things just wouldn't click for her. An e-collar would not help because obedience was never an issue. It was up to ME to figure out what was missing, I knew that. I suspect an e-collar would have caused more problems with her than it could possibly solve, mostly because the problems were not related to control issues. Someone who relied on electronics undoubtedly would have given up on Ellie. And they would have lost out on a hunting dog who's turned out to be something very special. It's taken a lot of patience and some thinking outside the box. No electronic shortcuts.

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Re: Using e collar

Post by ON Honker Hunter » Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:56 am

cjhills wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:03 am
Honker:
Very few people are capable of training a dog without some form of long range control. Of course a dog can be trained without a collar, it is done all the time. If your hunting partners dogs are out of control without collars it is because they were not trained properly. Don't blame the ecollar.
We all have a choice. We all have a choice, but proper use of a modern ecollar makes life easier for the dog and the trainer. I do like a simple system, but the "fiddle factor" is no more than it is on a whistle......Cj
Whistle goes in my mouth and I can carry it there comfortably until a bird is around (chipped a tooth two years ago when I forgot to spit it out!). Only takes a second to grab the whistle on lanyard then my hand is back on the gun. I don't have to fish it out of my pocket and I don't have to look at it either. Some guys just don't want the annoyance of whistle noise ... but also don't have a problem listening to a freaking beeper collar all day long. Go figure! I think it's about appearances. If the handler is whistling all the time, then the appearance is the dog is not that much in control (which may be an accurate observation). E-collar correction is more subtle, and therefore projecting an image that the handler is more in control than he actually is ... because it's the e-collar that's actually doing the controlling ... quietly. A beeper collar does not project an image of a dog that's out of control ... just one that's out of sight due to heavy cover.

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Re: Using e collar

Post by averageguy » Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:16 am

Honker,
I debated whether to respond or not, but your second post prompts me to proceed. You have a gross mis-conception of how most make use of an ecollar in their training. Which is not surprising given you admit you have never used one in 54 years.

The huge majority of an ecollar's role in training dogs is to proof training which is already trained and well understood by the dog, prior to its use.

I train Heel, Sit, Stay, Come/Here, Kennel, Whoa, Down, Fetch and Blind Retrieve Handling all without the use of an ecollar, first. I then overlay the ecollar on those commands teaching the dog that swift compliance to the trained commands it already knows, in all circumstances, is what turns off the tickle it is feeling around it's neck.

Only in the area of Trash Breaking do I make use of ecollar stimulation without having prior trained the dog to comply without it. The reason for that is I want the dog to associate the negative re-enforcement with the act of chasing the deer or coyote, not with me seeing it chase the deer or coyote.

I would be typical of many dedicated amateur trainers in that I train a great deal. No one who is lazy and looking for short cuts makes proper use of an ecollar tool in their training. But no one who is lazy and looking for shortcuts has success training without one either.

High level Hunt Tests and Trials do not allow the use of an ecollar and so all dogs and Handlers who complete/test and win/pass are demonstrating their dogs' willingness to comply with their training without the use of an ecollar.

It would be common for my dogs and I to enjoy a wild bird hunt where I never have a need to use ecollar stimulation on the dog. I do make use of the trained recall to the tone on the ecollar to silently handle my dogs as needed as to their location and range during a hunt. I like silent and find it is an advantage to hunting wary birds which have had prior contacts with dogs and hunters as the seasons roll on.

My dog and I enjoyed many successful hunts for wild public land rooster pheasants across 4 states this past season and he was seldom within flushing dog range while doing it.

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Re: Using e collar

Post by gonehuntin' » Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:48 pm

Honker; join this century. I think you are hugely misinformed or under informed on ecollar usage.

Here are some points for you: You can't train a dog with an ecollar, you can only reinforce manually taught.
An ecollar is the fastest, safest, most humane way to train ANY dog.
The advantage of using a tone is total silence while hunting.
The only time you hear a beep when using an Astro is when the dog points and it's on you, not the dog. Bird can't hear it.
The older you get, the easier and more necessary it is to go to an ecollar.

Don't disparage the use of the new collars and locators until you have hunted or trained with someone versed in their correct use.

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Re: Using e collar

Post by polmaise » Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:43 pm

MHWH wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:41 pm
Using a collar with tone, vibration and stimulation available what do you guys use, and for what.

I am think of using the vibration as a warning before using the stim. Then using the tone like the whistle where 3 tweets is for here, 2 is for sit, or whoa, and one is change direction.

How are you guys using the different options?

Thanks, Mike
Mike,sounds like a good plan !
All you have to do now is have the dog on the same page ,or pager
😉 .
Audible markers are good,and visual markers with audible cues are great.

All you have to now is press the button and tweet or vibrate.

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Re: Using e collar

Post by ON Honker Hunter » Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:58 pm

What I am "disparaging" is the current philosophy that e-collars are essential. They are not. Perhaps they might be more useful for someone who hunts only a couple weekends a year and lets his dog range seven hundred yards, but I don't hunt that way. And I will pack it in anyplace I hunt where other dogs are running loose.

There is a difference between wild birds and wild birds on public land. Last year in Montana I had every public hunting place, including the usually very popular federal refuge, essentially all to myself, even on the weekends. Numbers were so poor almost everyone who journeyed to Big Sky Country to hunt pheasants hung it up after a day or two. Perhaps that's because almost every rooster was a long-spur and rarely would hold more than a second or two before flushing. Though I only connected with twenty-five roosters over six weeks, I still probably did better than anyone else within five counties ... but I wore out two pairs of boots in the process. A dog that didn't work very close, pointer or no, was not going to produce much on public land there last year. That's probably why most guys gave up.

I suppose it comes down to how bad one wants to clean birds. Watching the dogs work is more important to me. But it's much less fun if they are a speck on the horizon or wandering around in cover where they can't be seen.

All I'm saying is e-collars are not essential for keeping a good hunting dog under control. I know this for a fact because I have done it very well over the years without electronics. As indicated above, there are many factors to consider: time available for training, breed of dog, nature of dog, land you plan to hunt (posted private preserve vs publicly accessible; wide open spaces vs heavy cover), and game to be hunted. Some breeds I will never own and there are some hunting environments that are simply not for me. But consider that most of those breeds were developed centuries before e-collars were developed. And they hunted the same kind of birds, the same way, on essentially the same kind of land. Except for the clothing and to a limited extent the firearms, the only significant development in the field of upland hunting since then has been e-collars. I have been around long enough to have observed the before and after effects of that development. The biggest difference seems to me is more people are now attempting to train pointing breeds. When I was a kid, making a pointer or setter into a hunting dog was much more of an art form reserved for specialists. Most working class stiffs who didn't have the time or money for professional training went with flushing dogs because they were less hassle to get ready for the field, better in the home, and more versatile hunters (most can double as cold water retrievers). Has increasing the availability/utility of pointing breeds been a good thing? Perhaps. But I think every newbie handler who straps on one of those gizmos needs to also take a good look at his/her dog and realise the breed was perfected without electronics. And training it can still be done well without electronics ... if he/she has the courage and patience to try.

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Re: Using e collar

Post by ON Honker Hunter » Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:14 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:48 pm
... The older you get, the easier and more necessary it is to go to an ecollar.
I am sixty-six. How much older do I need to get? I'm not overweight and still have lots of air in my tires. It is NOT "necessary" for me to go with an e-collar. Maybe I'm not what I used to be but I can still walk most guys half my age into the dirt. Still have to be careful I don't overwork the dogs when we first get to Montana and wear holes in their pads. Not many guys my age have to worry about that. I continue to hunt big game but not from an ATV or sitting in a tree stand. Except for goose hunting, I am a stalker. And if there was any waterfowl jump shooting left anywhere, I'd throw my decoys in the Salvation Army bin tomorrow.

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Re: Using e collar

Post by polmaise » Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:23 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:48 pm
The older you get, the easier and more necessary it is to go to an ecollar.
Of all the quotes made by our learned friend, Gonehunting,who I personally have admired and gained from ,this one (imo).sends and says the wrong message . But I am sure we will still be friends.

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Re: Using e collar

Post by gonehuntin' » Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:15 pm

polmaise wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:23 pm
gonehuntin' wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:48 pm
The older you get, the easier and more necessary it is to go to an ecollar.
Of all the quotes made by our learned friend, Gonehunting,who I personally have admired and gained from ,this one (imo).sends and says the wrong message . But I am sure we will still be friends.
I speak for myself only. At 74 I no longer have the stamina or desire to once again train without an ecollar. I tell others why I train with an ecollar and reasons why, but I never tell someone they're wrong in the way they train and should go to the collar.

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Re: Using e collar

Post by birds » Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:13 am

ON Honker Hunter wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:14 pm
gonehuntin' wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:48 pm
... The older you get, the easier and more necessary it is to go to an ecollar.
I am sixty-six. How much older do I need to get? I'm not overweight and still have lots of air in my tires. It is NOT "necessary" for me to go with an e-collar. Maybe I'm not what I used to be but I can still walk most guys half my age into the dirt. Still have to be careful I don't overwork the dogs when we first get to Montana and wear holes in their pads. Not many guys my age have to worry about that. I continue to hunt big game but not from an ATV or sitting in a tree stand. Except for goose hunting, I am a stalker. And if there was any waterfowl jump shooting left anywhere, I'd throw my decoys in the Salvation Army bin tomorrow.
ON Honker Hunter -
No one is suggesting you strap e collars on all your dogs and start zapping them. You have a system with your flushers that works for you. Good. To suggest the collective (if diverse) wisdom of dog training here (especially pointing dogs) is somehow "wrong" is akin to me suggesting the plastic stocked hump back Browning displayed in one of your photos is somehow inferior to the sxs I've carried for 45 years. Even if I thought it (I don't) I wouldn't say it. And to disparage deer hunters that hunt out of tree stands sort of displays a poor understanding of the conditions some whitetail hunters deal with (from your post you don't seem the type that could sit silently motionless for hours on end), not to mention the behavioral differences between mule deer and whitetail deer. One is not better than the other - they are different and live in different habitat and behave differently.One tends to live in more open country that lends itself to stalking. The other is a ghost of heavy cover and if you count standing shots at immobile mature bucks as "success" you are probably going to be a long time "stalking" one where they mostly live. And in my annual experience there is plenty of good waterfowl jump shooting to be had if that's the way you like to do it. But if you decide to give away your decoys let me know.
Enjoy what these folks have to say. Collectively they've been around a long, long time and seem to have successfully trained a lot of dogs. I look forward to learning from all of them. :)

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Re: Using e collar

Post by ON Honker Hunter » Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:00 am

birds wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:13 am
ON Honker Hunter wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:14 pm
gonehuntin' wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:48 pm
... The older you get, the easier and more necessary it is to go to an ecollar.
I am sixty-six. How much older do I need to get? I'm not overweight and still have lots of air in my tires. It is NOT "necessary" for me to go with an e-collar. Maybe I'm not what I used to be but I can still walk most guys half my age into the dirt. Still have to be careful I don't overwork the dogs when we first get to Montana and wear holes in their pads. Not many guys my age have to worry about that. I continue to hunt big game but not from an ATV or sitting in a tree stand. Except for goose hunting, I am a stalker. And if there was any waterfowl jump shooting left anywhere, I'd throw my decoys in the Salvation Army bin tomorrow.
ON Honker Hunter -
No one is suggesting you strap e collars on all your dogs and start zapping them. You have a system with your flushers that works for you. Good. To suggest the collective (if diverse) wisdom of dog training here (especially pointing dogs) is somehow "wrong" is akin to me suggesting the plastic stocked hump back Browning displayed in one of your photos is somehow inferior to the sxs I've carried for 45 years. Even if I thought it (I don't) I wouldn't say it. And to disparage deer hunters that hunt out of tree stands sort of displays a poor understanding of the conditions some whitetail hunters deal with (from your post you don't seem the type that could sit silently motionless for hours on end), not to mention the behavioral differences between mule deer and whitetail deer. One is not better than the other - they are different and live in different habitat and behave differently.One tends to live in more open country that lends itself to stalking. The other is a ghost of heavy cover and if you count standing shots at immobile mature bucks as "success" you are probably going to be a long time "stalking" one where they mostly live. And in my annual experience there is plenty of good waterfowl jump shooting to be had if that's the way you like to do it. But if you decide to give away your decoys let me know.
Enjoy what these folks have to say. Collectively they've been around a long, long time and seem to have successfully trained a lot of dogs. I look forward to learning from all of them. :)
I am not disparaging anyone. That should have been clear enough. Yes, I hardly have the patience to sit still long enough to shoot geese over decoys (often I don't have patience enough and take off with the dogs for a walk ... when the birds invariably come and land in the deeks!). I have some very fine whitetail trophies (in fact many more than muleys). None shot from a treestand and none rattled or attracted either. All shot on the stalk.
This really nice buck was taken in heavy timber in northern Idaho. I successfully stalked not only whitetails but also elk and moose (including one bull moose tracked to his bed in thick tag alders and shot in his sleep at less than twenty yards). Requires some skill ... and the effort to learn it. I would love to find good jump shooting again. It was all I did when growing up in Montana. Those places are all now posted up and filled with multi-million dollar homes of the rich and famous. The water here is either too brushy or too open for jump shooting and birds are long gone before there's even a skiff of ice. A few small grown in sloughs near the fields I hunt geese produce a few birds for me every year but it's a challenge getting through the jungle close enough to do any damage. Also requires the three dogs in tow be controlled precisely. A story on that: A few years ago I had one of those magical days when every goose in the air (no exaggeration) came to my decoys. I could only get half of a dozen deeks out before the honkers started bombing in. The dogs and I had to dive into a shallow willow covered ditch on the edge of the field. I shot an easy triple from the first bunch. Then the trouble started. Big flocks of geese would come over seventy to hundred yards high and drop en masse like a stone onto the decoys. No circling for a look, just flip-flop and down they came (it was an atypical windless day). Problem was I only needed two more honkers to fill my bag and didn't dare shoot into a mass of geese for fear of taking too many. So I waited for something to circle at least once. Meanwhile hundreds of honkers kept piling up in the field in front of us, many less than fifteen yards away. I could see their eyes! The poor dogs about had a stroke! "Leave them alone" I hissed! And they did, but shaking like a leaf. FINALLY a family group circled overhead before diving in. I sat up and ... fanned all three shots. The roar in front of me was deafening but no way was I shooting into that crowd. One shot could have killed a dozen. When the smoke cleared I laughed at myself. Put the dogs through all that torture and then messed it up. I'll never forget old Pearl running around in the deeks looking for downed birds and then the puzzled look on her face. Not ten minutes later a lone pair came cruising by and I took them both in two shots.

The mistake some (most) of you are making is taking my comments as disparagement. Because I do things differently doesn't necessarily mean I do them better. But I would hope that after reading my comments people who decide to get involved in dog training consider their options more carefully. Thinking outside the box for oneself is what life is about ... or what it should be about. Or everyone can just be sheep herded by manufacturers' advertising.
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averageguy
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Re: Using e collar

Post by averageguy » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:23 am

Now see there Honker,

That last sentence comes across as more disparagement.

Those are beautiful trophies. If we were sharing a truck ride, a meal or a campfire, I would solicit you sharing every detail of the hunts/experiences behind them.

I have been incredibly Blessed to experience a wide spectrum of our great outdoors. I have crawled, stalked, called, decoyed, scouted, setup and hunted from tree stands, and ground blinds to cleanly harvest Elk, Whitetails, Mule Deer, Antelope and Turkeys with archery tackle. At single digit yardages.

My successes (and failures) using all those fair chase tactics give me a hands on appreciation for what each differing experience has to offer.

I can easily discuss the merits of each of those hunting methods without inferring someone using one of them is doing so because they lack the skill to use another.

Same with using an ecollar, or not, for training their dog.

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Re: Using e collar

Post by ON Honker Hunter » Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:51 pm

averageguy wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:23 am
Now see there Honker,

That last sentence comes across as more disparagement.

Those are beautiful trophies. If we were sharing a truck ride, a meal or a campfire, I would solicit you sharing every detail of the hunts/experiences behind them.

I have been incredibly Blessed to experience a wide spectrum of our great outdoors. I have crawled, stalked, called, decoyed, scouted, setup and hunted from tree stands, and ground blinds to cleanly harvest Elk, Whitetails, Mule Deer, Antelope and Turkeys with archery tackle. At single digit yardages.

My successes (and failures) using all those fair chase tactics give me a hands on appreciation for what each differing experience has to offer.

I can easily discuss the merits of each of those hunting methods without inferring someone using one of them is doing so because they lack the skill to use another.

Same with using an ecollar, or not, for training their dog.
Careful about taking what I say out of context. You see nonexistent inferences too readily.

I always encourage people to try something else other than what the media is touting. Be your own man/woman. As a business historian the old chicken-or-egg dilemma of whether advertising responds to or creates market forces has always intrigued me. I certainly see much of the latter in the outdoors recreation business. Case in point is the current ridiculous fad for long range big game hunting that's clearly being promoted to sell specialized guns and gear. Will I disparage guys who take up that "sport?" Yes, and not because it requires less skill than stalking for a close shot (though I am personally inclined to believe it requires much less skill) but rather because it is inherently more likely to cause undue suffering or lost and wasted game. Back when I was growing up many children of the Depression were still around (like my dad). Taking a carcass to the butcher that was wastefully shot up or dirty would get you a bad mark in the community. No one boned out meat in the field back then either. That was regarded as very wasteful! Nowadays it seems no one cares. Throwing away food is a national pastime. McDonalds has done wonderful things to our society.

In the old days, training a setter/pointer without e-collars was more challenging and not usually something the working stiff could easily undertake due to various factors described above (time, money, etc.). Most guys from my youth chose flushing dogs, particularly Labs, also for the reasons specified above. The choice did not boil down to skill levels ... not entirely anyway. A person might acquire the skill needed to handle a pointing dog without electronics but it took time and/or money that many simply didn't have. E-collars have expanded the horizon, especially for upland dog training, there is no doubt of that. Are those who choose to still train dogs the "old-fashioned" way without electronics more skilful? Let's just say they use different skill sets. Apples and oranges. Is it more difficult to train/work a dog without electronics? I think both sides of the fence would probably agree in most cases the answer is probably yes. Is it worth the effort to go without electronics? Personally, I think so. I want nothing between my relationship with my dog but her and me. Others may disagree ... but I suspect few of them have trained and/or worked with a dog without electronics.
Last edited by ON Honker Hunter on Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Using e collar

Post by shags » Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:23 pm

I think you may be wrong with that sentence...plenty of geezers and geezettes here with training days that preceded ecollars.

I well remember those old days, and much prefer the kinder gentler methods available now because of "something between me and my dog".

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Re: Using e collar

Post by averageguy » Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:31 pm

Honker,

I trained my first 6 dogs in a row before I acquired an ecollar. I trained my first GWP through his first hunting season 35 years ago without an ecollar because the models in that era lacked the ability to instantly match the stimulation levels to the moment of correction. And the video training programs which are available and hugely beneficial to all now, were not yet available either.

Training in all areas of the dog world has made huge advancements and continues to do so today. The good ole days of dog training are now not yesterday in every way except for the possible access to wild birds for some.

Both my hounds and that first GWP were placed at far greater danger in that bygone era due my lack of an ecollar as they pursued deer out of sight, towards roads etc. I remember well that 7 month old GWP pup disappearing in Iowa when a big buck jumped out its bed about 5 yards in front of him in heavy cover. I had a pretty darned good recall on that pup, and we took a limit of wild roosters over his points that day. He was far above average for schooling and performance at his young age, but nothing was going to stop him from his hot pursuit of that buck racing away in front of his face.

The pup's prey drive was his greatest strength over the 14 hunting seasons we shared together and our bond and prior training is what eventually brought him back around to my frantic whistle so we could resume our hunt.

Every pup since then has had the advantage of a state of the art Tri-Tronics ecollar around their neck. Properly trained commands in place, ecollar properly introduced, and me equipped to handle these inevitable situations during a pup's first season in a much safer, effective manner than was possible absent an ecollar.

As I posted before and is the same with others. We all do train without an ecollar. We do that first. Then we introduce the ecollar and use it as the excellent tool that it is to further train our dogs that come still means come, whoa still means whoa, etc no matter what the level of distraction and temptation.

It is no secret that all dog breeds and lines within those breeds are not created equal in their styles of work and drive while doing it. You use a form of negative en-enforcement in the form of a dowel rod in your training. Which works when your Labs are a few feet away. Those using an ecollar have a longer reach for longer reach dogs. Dogs which produce a great deal of enjoyment and wild game for their handlers.

So many People have not incorporated ecollars into their training because of advertising, but rather because they are an excellent training tool.

I have no reason to care whether you use an ecollar or not. I do encourage newbies reading along to not take their advice on ecollars from a guy posting as though he is somehow miraculously well versed in their use despite never having used one to train a single dog.

P.S. If you know how to bone out a big game animal nothing is wasted. And we do have intersection of agreement on the long range rifle shooting trend. I keep hunting until I get within close range, most often bow range. For the most part however I refrain from insisting others do everything the same as what I choose to do, and both have nothing to do with ecollars.

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Re: Using e collar

Post by birddogger2 » Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:03 pm

shags wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:23 pm
I think you may be wrong with that sentence...plenty of geezers and geezettes here with training days that preceded ecollars.

I well remember those old days, and much prefer the kinder gentler methods available now because of "something between me and my dog".
I came by my gray hair honestly and I too remember training dogs without any sort of electronics. Unlike some, my preference was(and still is) for hard charging, big running pointers and YES they were not for the faint of heart back then and can be quite the handful even today.

The modern, variable intensity electronic training collar is quite possibly the single most significant training advancement in the last sixty years that I have been messing with bird dogs. Properly used, it is a wonderful tool.

I know very well how to train a dog with just a lead rope and my hands on the dog. The overlayment of the e-collar to reinforce...at a distance...the lessons learned in the yard is, without question, the most efficient, effective and gentlest training method available.

Not saying one cannot train a dog to the highest levels without using electronics. Some of us can, and have. But the question remains...WHY??

And as far as trophy big game animals are concerned, I was always of the opinion that, no matter how you tried to cook them, boiled, broiled, roasted, toasted or poached ... antlers and other headgear are totally inedible, and so, of rather little importance...to me. I'd much rather shoot a dry doe or yearling. Now them's good eats.

RayG

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Re: Using e collar

Post by cjhills » Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:51 pm

RG
Finally a post I agree with 100%. E collars have definitely made my life easier and training life longer.
AG
It looks like you finally met your match.
I doubt if the animals think it is a fair chase.
I liked Shags post too. Some of the good old days were pretty brutal.......Cj

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Re: Using e collar

Post by averageguy » Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:11 pm

cjhills wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:51 pm
RG
Finally a post I agree with 100%. E collars have definitely made my life easier and training life longer.
AG
It looks like you finally met your match.
I doubt if the animals think it is a fair chase.
I liked Shags post too. Some of the good old days were pretty brutal.......Cj
So taking big game animals with archery tackle is not fair chase. :lol:

That is right up there with "pheasants are the dumbest birds on the planet", "Huns are not found around shrubby cover", "no one should be shooting limits of birds", "dogs do not need to be trained to Hunt Dead, just to mark", "Early use of treats in shaping young puppies holds no lasting value" "Fast working dogs are always best" and other pearls of wisdom you have felt compelled to respond to my posts with.

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Re: Using e collar

Post by ON Honker Hunter » Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:17 pm

birddogger2 wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:03 pm
shags wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:23 pm
I think you may be wrong with that sentence...plenty of geezers and geezettes here with training days that preceded ecollars.

I well remember those old days, and much prefer the kinder gentler methods available now because of "something between me and my dog".
I came by my gray hair honestly and I too remember training dogs without any sort of electronics. Unlike some, my preference was(and still is) for hard charging, big running pointers and YES they were not for the faint of heart back then and can be quite the handful even today.

The modern, variable intensity electronic training collar is quite possibly the single most significant training advancement in the last sixty years that I have been messing with bird dogs. Properly used, it is a wonderful tool.

I know very well how to train a dog with just a lead rope and my hands on the dog. The overlayment of the e-collar to reinforce...at a distance...the lessons learned in the yard is, without question, the most efficient, effective and gentlest training method available.

Not saying one cannot train a dog to the highest levels without using electronics. Some of us can, and have. But the question remains...WHY??

And as far as trophy big game animals are concerned, I was always of the opinion that, no matter how you tried to cook them, boiled, broiled, roasted, toasted or poached ... antlers and other headgear are totally inedible, and so, of rather little importance...to me. I'd much rather shoot a dry doe or yearling. Now them's good eats.

RayG
Ray, I shot a lot of cows and calves too. Whatever came along that was legal was fine with me. The bull in the newspaper photo wasn't bad eating (but took two weeks to retrieve with horses). The other one was really tough. An absolutely huge battle-scarred brute ... with small feet. Strange.

Our choice of hunting dogs is definitely apples and oranges. I want to be able to watch my dogs work ... with the naked eye, not binoculars. I prefer a close relationship.

Average guy: I have never had a problem calling any of my dogs off a deer, rabbit, porcupine, or whatever. We can run into as many as thirty deer a day hunting birds (and I often see a hundred or more when I'm hunting deer). My young Lab may be "interested" when a deer runs off but a sharp word is enough to get her back on track. One exception. Made the mistake of taking my buddy's son deer hunting with me a few years back and we had the Fr Britt along for birds (I was only legal for pheasants). Got him set up on a nice buck and he shot it twice at less than fifty yards (SKS piece of junk!). I didn't think he hit it. He was getting ready to shoot a third time but a white streak was after it. Coral figured we were shooting at the deer so she should run it down. First time I ever saw her bother with them. Had to giver a bit of heck for it when she came back but not much since it was my fault. We dropped down into the draw to look for birds on the way back. "Now where is that little rascal?" "Uncle Pat, she's up there on my deer!" It was in the Russian olive trying to get up again but just about done for. Coral was standing next to it, waggling her bum and looking at us. We probably would have walked right by it if she hadn't "pointed" it out to us. The kid wanted to fuss over her about it but I said no. Would send the wrong message. Anyway, that's my one and only episode of "deer chasing" dog. Ordinarily Coral won't even look up at a deer we push up (though curiously both her and young Lab get pretty worked up in the car if we see a deer on the road). When hunting it's all about birds for her. However, cottontails do greatly interest her ... though she could care less about jackrabbits. Go figure. The Lab in the deer photo, Ethyl, always went with me elk hunting. She was like my shadow. I often forgot she was along. She was with me when I shot the big one in the truck. Dropped him with one shot to the head (on the move no less) just over a mile from the road. I dragged him out whole ... by myself. But I had to tie him up to gut him. Very steep country and just enough snow. I often wondered if Ethyl would have even tracked a wounded elk/deer. Probably not since she was around them so much. It never came up. I always dropped what I was shooting at.

Of course, I acknowledge a lot of this has to do with the breed. As you know, I have been pretty much a Lab man my whole life with Coral being the late exception. Perhaps starting behind the close working easy going Labs helped curb any "wild" control issues. Frankly, I could have cared less if she turned out to be a flushing dog like them. I picked her up shortly after suddenly losing my wife ... shortly after we suddenly lost our fourteen year-old son. I just needed something bright, bubbly, and new to keep me distracted. Coral has turned out very well. She became a great pointer in spite of me. And she is NEVER out of sight and rarely out of range. In contrast, tonight on the way to the park with the full contingent, I ran into a young gal walking a year-old American Brittany. Lovely dog but boy was he a handful. She could see my three were well in hand and pleaded for advice. My first suggestion was pitch that chest yoke thingy and get a compression (pinch) collar. She said they had recently purchased an e-collar and asked my opinion about using that. Well, not for walking the dog. Compression collar used appropriately should help immensely. As to other obedience training (particularly coming back when summoned), I was honest with her: I've never used them but I was raised raising a different breed of dog. "I don't think I'd rule out an e-collar for this live wire. But you need to educate yourself first. They can be quite counterproductive if used improperly. That doesn't mean you should be afraid to try it [she seemed apprehensive]. Just use it wisely. And expect to spend a lot of time working with this youngster!" That's about the best I could do for her.

The dowel is not something I use to beat on the dogs! It's there to guide them back behind me or bring them ahead and I only use it in town and then only rarely. As often as not when walking them late at night I don't use anything. It's a lot of fun watching the dogs when I get that thing out of the closet and tap it on the kitchen floor. They go ape. Ellie will grab the end and try to pull me to the back door. "We're going for a walk! Yay!" The stick is merely an extension of my hand/arm. I never thought of it before, but when I tap it on the pavement to get them back in line, the motion is exactly the same as when in the field I point down to the ground next to me and whistle. Hmmm.

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Re: Using e collar

Post by averageguy » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:54 am

The degree of intolerance towards other hunters on this board is alarming.

I have been eating a steady stream of mature bull elk and whitetail bucks for decades now. Properly handled they are delicious, is what I and every one we serve it to will tell you. If your palate is different that is fine, but posts claiming legal big game hunting is not fair chase and you can't eat horns are just more divisive infighting working against our collective bests interests.

I took this bull this past September and the experience was as always, personal, intense and treasured. The meat is delicious and as healthy as it gets.

Imagef

I also harvested and donated four archery whitetail does to my states Share the Harvest Program this season as their numbers said it was right thing to do for our local herd management. Just under 300,000 pounds of the healthy, quality meat was donated and shared with the less fortunate through this program. The severity of this past winter makes me wonder if I should have taken more.

Let's not let what should be minor differences in personal preferences work against our common good.
Last edited by averageguy on Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Using e collar

Post by Fitter47449 » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:57 am

So, Anyway to try and get the this back on track as to what you use your ecollar for, not if you should use one. I have a couple different e collars, but I use them basically the same way.
I use the tone as an overlay for the recall command. I have trained this dog to recall by voice, hand signal, whistle and finally to the collar tone.

I use the vibrate as an overlay for the woah command, again after voice, hand, And whistle

The stim is used on the lowest setting that gets the dogs attention simply to reinforce commands he already knows.

My dog is an almost 2 year old gsp and my first bird dog, now don’t get me wrong I didn’t achieve this on my own but throug lots of reading and with the help of local trainer, he’s actually usually training me more than he’s training the dog. So take it as you will I hardly ever have to use the stim with my dog as the underlying work was all solid before he was transitioned to ecollar reinforcement.

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Re: Using e collar

Post by gonehuntin' » Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:02 am

averageguy wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:54 am
The degree of intolerance towards other hunters on this board is alarming.

I have been eating a steady stream of mature bull elk and whitetail bucks for decades now. Properly handled they are delicious, is what I and every one we serve it to will tell you. If your palate is different that is fine, but posts claiming legal big game hunting is not fair chase and you can't eat horns are just more divisive infighting working against our collective bests interests.

I took this bull this past September and the experience was as always, personal, intense and treasured. The meat is delicious and as healthy as it gets.

Imagef

I also harvested and donated four archery whitetail does to my states Share the Harvest Program this season as their numbers said it was right thing to do for our local herd management. Just under 300,000 pounds of the healthy, quality meat was donated and shared with the less fortunate through this program. The severity of this past winter makes me wonder if I should have taken more.

Let's not let what should be minor differences in personal preferences work against our common good.
OK, officially jealous now. What a bull!! Congrats!

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Re: Using e collar

Post by birddogger2 » Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:10 am

ON Honker Hunter -

You wrote:
"Our choice of hunting dogs is definitely apples and oranges. I want to be able to watch my dogs work ... with the naked eye, not binoculars. I prefer a close relationship."

Be careful...you bias, and lack of knowledge is showing. Do not assume

Just so you know, I can(and do) hunt my dogs on a 40 acre preserve field, and I have to head back to the truck at least once during the outing because I can't carry any more pheasants. With the same dogs, I can field trial, both on foot and on horseback, with a moderate amount of success, I might add.

I grew up hunting in New Jersey, which is one of the most densely populated states in the US and I ain't lost a dog...in over sixty years of hunting behind them. Until about 25 years ago, the only electronics I had was a beeper collar. I now use available electronics...because it is easier on me and easier on the dog.

One of my greatest concerns when hunting with bird dogs is watching the dog go "over the hill" in search of game. One of the greatest joys when bird hunting is to walk or ride over that hill and find my dog standing there, like a Marine Major on a parade ground...locked up tight as a tick...just waiting for me.

With close working dogs that never get out of sight, that is a concern... and a joy that the owner will never truly experience.

Hunt the way you want, with the kind of dogs you want. But don't disparage others because they don't do it your way. There are many ways to get from here to there with a bird dog.

I'm done.

RayG

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Re: Using e collar

Post by averageguy » Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:13 am

Thank you, GH. It was an over the top experience from start to finish.

Fitter, nice post. Echos the posts of others doing the same and is representative of what can be accomplished using an ecollar tool in an overall balanced informed and diligent approach to Gun dog training and handling.

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Re: Using e collar

Post by birds » Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:50 am

Fitter47449 wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:57 am
So, Anyway to try and get the this back on track as to what you use your ecollar for, not if you should use one. I have a couple different e collars, but I use them basically the same way.
I use the tone as an overlay for the recall command. I have trained this dog to recall by voice, hand signal, whistle and finally to the collar tone.

I use the vibrate as an overlay for the woah command, again after voice, hand, And whistle

The stim is used on the lowest setting that gets the dogs attention simply to reinforce commands he already knows.

My dog is an almost 2 year old gsp and my first bird dog, now don’t get me wrong I didn’t achieve this on my own but throug lots of reading and with the help of local trainer, he’s actually usually training me more than he’s training the dog. So take it as you will I hardly ever have to use the stim with my dog as the underlying work was all solid before he was transitioned to ecollar reinforcement.
Thanks - that was about as simple and concise as it should have been. I was wondering how to keep the dog and myself from getting too confused from how to cleanly apply all those stim, tone, vibrate overlay options to verbal commands. Your description of ecollar use seems a clear layout of what others have said (and a good use for that vibrate option!)
And as much as I enjoy looking at big antlers, pursuing them and admire those animals posted (congrats!) it seems like the horn porn belongs on a different forum, or at the very least a different thread - unless you guys are talking about ecollar use for elk hunting. Otherwise we may have to pull out the hip boots just to navigate this :D

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Re: Using e collar

Post by ON Honker Hunter » Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:05 am

birddogger2 wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:10 am
ON Honker Hunter -

You wrote:
"Our choice of hunting dogs is definitely apples and oranges. I want to be able to watch my dogs work ... with the naked eye, not binoculars. I prefer a close relationship."

Be careful...you bias, and lack of knowledge is showing. Do not assume

Just so you know, I can(and do) hunt my dogs on a 40 acre preserve field, and I have to head back to the truck at least once during the outing because I can't carry any more pheasants. With the same dogs, I can field trial, both on foot and on horseback, with a moderate amount of success, I might add.

I grew up hunting in New Jersey, which is one of the most densely populated states in the US and I ain't lost a dog...in over sixty years of hunting behind them. Until about 25 years ago, the only electronics I had was a beeper collar. I now use available electronics...because it is easier on me and easier on the dog.

One of my greatest concerns when hunting with bird dogs is watching the dog go "over the hill" in search of game. One of the greatest joys when bird hunting is to walk or ride over that hill and find my dog standing there, like a Marine Major on a parade ground...locked up tight as a tick...just waiting for me.

With close working dogs that never get out of sight, that is a concern... and a joy that the owner will never truly experience.

Hunt the way you want, with the kind of dogs you want. But don't disparage others because they don't do it your way. There are many ways to get from here to there with a bird dog.

I'm done.

RayG
Ray, I don't see that bias or lack of knowledge has anything to do with the statement. We hunt different dogs in a different way. I hunt close working dogs that I can watch work and you by your own admission hunt "hard running" dogs that you enjoy seeing go over the hill out of sight. I hunt wild birds on public land and you hunt your posted preserve with presumably stocked birds. I hunt on foot over vast expanses of publicly accessible land usually wearing out a pair of boots every season and you hunt on your forty acres sometimes on horseback. (But don't get me wrong, I would love to be back in the saddle again!). I spend half the season shooting waterfowl before I go to Montana for uplands. I don't see any mention of you hunting ducks with your hard running dogs. All of that is about as apples and oranges as it gets. NO disparagement or bias in that assessment. We are in different worlds. It is what it is. I don't think I've ever said mine is better than yours. Perhaps you have drawn that inference, but that's your doing not mine.

All I'm saying here is that people who acquire hunting dogs should carefully consider whether electronics is even necessary for working them in the field. Admittedly a lot of factors come into play. Example: One of the guys at the trap/skeet club, a big time duck hunter, recently acquired a Lab cross pup (he'll spend $4,000 for a pair of O/Us but gets cheap on his dog?). He's been bringing this lovely pup to our Sunday shoots and I look at that fancy e-collar already strapped to it and shake my head. It has a bit of pup energy but still it's a Lab (sort of) in love with his handler. When it was time to leave, the dog wouldn't come get in the truck: he enjoys the socializing and play time. Pup just sat and looked at the guy so he starts rummaging for e-collar controller. "Jeezus, Pat, whataya doing? Just get in the truck and drive off without him. I'll watch him so he doesn't chase you. He'll get the message." And he did. Pat stopped at the corner, opened the door, and I released the pup. He flew into that back seat! We may need to repeat next week but I kinda doubt it. The e-collar on that pup is pure technocrap style show. His pleasing pliable disposition does not require it. I have been around them long enough to know that.

PS: Do not draw an inference that I am somehow disparaging unpapered hunting dogs. That black Lab in the deer photo is without a doubt the finest dog I'll ever own and she was a Lab/golden cross. People who didn't like dogs would fight to take care of her when I had to go out of town on coaching trips. In the field she was a guided missile. She would give her life for me ... and I would do the same. Almost did to get her safely home with that goose.

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ON Honker Hunter
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Re: Using e collar

Post by ON Honker Hunter » Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:26 am

averageguy wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:54 am
The degree of intolerance towards other hunters on this board is alarming.

I have been eating a steady stream of mature bull elk and whitetail bucks for decades now. Properly handled they are delicious, is what I and every one we serve it to will tell you. If your palate is different that is fine, but posts claiming legal big game hunting is not fair chase and you can't eat horns are just more divisive infighting working against our collective bests interests.

I took this bull this past September and the experience was as always, personal, intense and treasured. The meat is delicious and as healthy as it gets.

Imagef

I also harvested and donated four archery whitetail does to my states Share the Harvest Program this season as their numbers said it was right thing to do for our local herd management. Just under 300,000 pounds of the healthy, quality meat was donated and shared with the less fortunate through this program. The severity of this past winter makes me wonder if I should have taken more.

Let's not let what should be minor differences in personal preferences work against our common good.
Looks like it took a while to track that big boy down. My hat's off to you sticking with it till after dark. Must not have been easy tracking without snow.
Many would "wait till morning" ... which would mean waiting for it to become bird food waste with a large animal like that. Good for you! A difficult job well done.

The big bull in the truck was poor eating largely because the temperatures dropped that night to well below freezing and stayed that way for weeks. The meat never had a chance to age properly. Boy, was it tough!

shags
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Re: Using e collar

Post by shags » Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:44 am

ON,
It reads to me like you make judgements on the use of ecollar training based on observation of several clueless bozos. Your negative impressions are not formed by watching skilled effective trainers using electronics. Maybe your knowlege banks need to be expanded?

Nothing is a necessary training tool for everybody. Not slip collars, or flat collars, or check cords, or heeling sticks. We all use tools that are effective and comfortable for us. There are crappy electronics-using trainers, and there are crappy trainers who use old traditional techniques. It isn't the tools, it's how they are used.

Bigger ranging pointing dogs aren't always out of sight, and they provide some of us with lots of enjoyment as we watch them work. I suspect that you'd enjoy it too, if you get the opportunity to hunt behind a well trained talented pointing dog. Just this morning in training, we had lots of fun watching my young dog working birds at 300-400 yards out and holding point until we got in to flush. What a blast!

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Sharon
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Re: Using e collar

Post by Sharon » Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:51 pm

MHWH wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:41 pm
Using a collar with tone, vibration and stimulation available what do you guys use, and for what.

I am think of using the vibration as a warning before using the stim. Then using the tone like the whistle where 3 tweets is for here, 2 is for sit, or whoa, and one is change direction.

How are you guys using the different options?

Thanks, Mike
Let's get back to the original post please.

polmaise
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Re: Using e collar

Post by polmaise » Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:28 pm

Sharon wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:51 pm
MHWH wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:41 pm
Using a collar with tone, vibration and stimulation available what do you guys use, and for what.

I am think of using the vibration as a warning before using the stim. Then using the tone like the whistle where 3 tweets is for here, 2 is for sit, or whoa, and one is change direction.

How are you guys using the different options?

Thanks, Mike
Let's get back to the original post please.
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