Let’s talk about registration

Fishmongerjoe
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Let’s talk about registration

Post by Fishmongerjoe » Sat Apr 06, 2019 5:20 am

I understand the difference between full and limited registration.

I’m curious about how breeders go about this. Do you generally just hand out limited registration? When, if ever will you sign over full registration? If you do, do you demand extra money or a potential puppy? Or if the dog and owner are successful and take care of all of the medical screens and trialing, will you just “release” the dog?

From a buyers perspective, this part of the details that needs to be ironed out before any money changes hands. How do you approach breeders and talk about such things? It feels as though you’re being held hostage on potential success. If buyers are spending money on genetics, then why aren’t they 100% their property once the money has changed hands?

I understand about protecting the breed and so on. Spending thousands of dollars on a dog that may or may not be a champion is a pretty big gamble. Not being able to get a return on your initial monetary, time, and training investment could be a real bummer if you have to pay another ransom at the end of the road. How does one avoid this?

Thanks




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shags
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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by shags » Sat Apr 06, 2019 5:59 am

IMO limited registration and contracts are BS. If I'm writing a check or plunking down a wad of hundred dollar bills for a dog, the dog is mine, exclusively. If a breeder thinks so highly of their puppies, then he/she should just keep them in their breeding program and not annoy buyers with their demands. If the puppies don't meet expectations and are sub par, the breeder can dunk them or keep them until they're neutered then place them in homes.

Some of the crazier demands I've heard...puppy/dog must be fed a particular food all its life; buyer must agree to not allow the puppy/dog to move faster than a trot until the dog is 18 months old; buyer of females must agree to allow breeder to choose stud and breed dog, then buyer must raise puppies and breeder gets to choose homes for them.

Just from talking to folks, it seems like the breeders who own CH Win-it-all-everytime aren't the nutty ones; it's the ones who own a kinda sorta nice dog that become unreasonable.

As a buyer I avoid such nonsense by purchasing FDSB puppies, then dual registering them with AKC, which seems like the source of all the lunacy.

Breeding dogs can be a tough business and I respect breeders who take responsibility for what they produce. But that responsibility ends with screening buyers and perhaps a request of first right of refusal if the buyer needs to rehome the dog in the future.

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Featherfinder
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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by Featherfinder » Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:18 am

My limited experience with limited registrations (LR) is not good at all. It reminds me a bit of new car warrantees - a wonderful source of after-sales revenue. It's all part-and-parcel of a bigger ball of stuff that has promoted selling puppies into a mega-$$$$ industry which includes the breeders' pre-purchase interviews, puppy guarantees, etc. etc.
A friend bought a Brittany with an LR many years ago from a show breeder. He paid decent money for this pup (2Xs what he should have for 1/2 the dog)...then a pile more later to get "full" ownership. IMO it says more about the breeder than the dog's breeding.
I have not had many litters here at all but when I sold a pup to a customer, it became THEIR pup. How strange is that?!?

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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by cjhills » Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:46 am

I absolutely agree with the above posts. Restricted registrations are mostly a marketing ploy to make buyers think they are buying something special. Just a chance to make a few dollars. It is amazing how the younger buyers believe the seller. $2500 for a labradoodle is a good example.
I have bought puppies from many breeders who have restrictions without any restrictions on my puppy. When the puppy leaves the kennel it is mine. If not it don't leave with me.
I do have an agreement, mostly what I will do if a problem arises and I do require a visit or some conversation before I except a deposit. I like to know a little about where my puppies are going...…...Cj

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Featherfinder
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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by Featherfinder » Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:27 am

CJ, I agree. You should know something about the buyer for the pup's sake but I want you to know how much better MY puppies are than yours because you have to do 4 interviews before I make my decision to sell to you. I need to know what your home/property is like, if you have out-of-state property, your financial status as-well-as-that of your spouse, if you have more than 2 children (ages), if your vehicle is an SUV/van and if said vehicle has lane departure warning or...it's no go! Right there, it should be obvious much better my pups are. Oh, and they are $15,000 with a limited reg. Along with the limited registration, we offer an even more limited guarantee.
We take MC, Viza, Amax as well as offering financing on approved customers.

art hubbard
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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by art hubbard » Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:41 am

X two, to all of the above. When I buy a dog, that dog is mine. When you buy a dog from me it's yours, period!!

Fishmongerjoe
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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by Fishmongerjoe » Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:56 am

Well that’s a relief. I thought I was going to get a bunch heat for even posting the question. I’m glad my opinion is in line with most rational adults.

I’m thinking it’s best to avoid the limited registration crowd and put my efforts into a dog that’s mine instead of “mine”.


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averageguy
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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by averageguy » Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:06 am

Fear not Joe, It will likely be me who takes the heat.

I bought my latest pup with Breeding Restricted registrations in NAVHDA and AKC. The restrictions are lifted if the dog passes an advanced level Hunt Test e.g. NAVHDA UT and passes health clearances for Hips and Thyroid at a minimum. Those conditions have been met and the restrictions have been lifted. No additional payments to the breeder was involved but I did bear the costs of the Hunt Test entry and Health screenings.

Made perfect sense to me, as why would I ever want to breed a dog which cannot be trained up to pass a Hunt Test and is not healthy?

I would not, and I agree with the approach.

I am doubtful I will breed the dog as I am not a breeder and when I want another dog the initial cost of acquisition is minuscule in the grand scheme of raising, training and hunting a dog across the US annually. I have been approached twice now about using my dog at stud and it might or might not happen at some point, if it does, it would only be to a bitch with similar qualifications on the other side.

Each time I get a puppy I want the best prospect that I can find. So I am grateful for Breeders who work to produce that.

I find it impossible to credibly argue I should have the freedom to breed a dog which cannot pass health screenings and be trained to pass a Hunt Test (which includes an evaluation of the dogs' coat and temperament) as the bare minimum requirements. The AKC side of my Breed is a growing mess, with horrible coats, temperament and health problems, declining field performance as they become more popular as pets.

It is an unfortunate testament to why Breeding Restrictions of a Hunting Breed serve as a useful control feature. While some segments of my Breed are in severe decline, there remains others where the disciplined breeding of high quality dogs remains on the right path. Breeding Restricted Registrations which can be lifted when reasonable conditions are met, play a useful role in that.

(For the record, I think the real measurement of a dog is how easy it trains out and its hunting performance on a variety of wild game in a variety of conditions, and its conformation, coat and temperament are critical as well. However, Hunt Tests provide a measure of objectivity that absent your own eyes on observations, are better than taking a stranger's word as to how good their dog is ... )

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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by shags » Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:24 am

Averageguy wrote
I find it impossible to credibly argue I should have the freedom to breed a dog which cannot pass health screenings and be trained to pass a Hunt Test (which includes an evaluation of the dogs' coat and temperament) as the bare minimum requirements. The AKC side of my Breed is a growing mess, with horrible coats, temperament and health problems, declining field performance as they become more popular as pets.

And yet the breeder finds it ok to produce puppies that they think might not meet physical or mental (training) standards as apparent by the restricted registration? What stops a breeder from continually producing subpar dogs, offering limited registration, thereby letting themselves off the hook ( not saying your breeder does this at all).

Not to mention any buyer can breed his/her dog and sell them cheap as purebred but unregistered "Oh, the mother is a real good dog, I just never registered her and lost the papers".

What happens if a future World Beater is sold with limited registration, but the breeder dies, moves, gets sick, etc and full registration never becomes available for an outstanding dog?

Just more to think about, I think :D

averageguy
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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by averageguy » Sat Apr 06, 2019 12:02 pm

shags wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:24 am
Averageguy wrote
I find it impossible to credibly argue I should have the freedom to breed a dog which cannot pass health screenings and be trained to pass a Hunt Test (which includes an evaluation of the dogs' coat and temperament) as the bare minimum requirements. The AKC side of my Breed is a growing mess, with horrible coats, temperament and health problems, declining field performance as they become more popular as pets.

And yet the breeder finds it ok to produce puppies that they think might not meet physical or mental (training) standards as apparent by the restricted registration? What stops a breeder from continually producing subpar dogs, offering limited registration, thereby letting themselves off the hook ( not saying your breeder does this at all).

Not to mention any buyer can breed his/her dog and sell them cheap as purebred but unregistered "Oh, the mother is a real good dog, I just never registered her and lost the papers".

What happens if a future World Beater is sold with limited registration, but the breeder dies, moves, gets sick, etc and full registration never becomes available for an outstanding dog?

Just more to think about, I think :D
I believe the best control feature possible is well informed Buyers. If all buyers were well informed only Breeders of quality dogs would survive. But such is not the case on either side.

I buy my GWP puppies in the NAVHDA system. As many as possible of the puppies my dog's breeder produces are tested at the Natural Ability level and some at the higher levels. The results are a matter of public record that all members of NAVHDA can sit at a keyboard search and study. The Breeders' Sires and Dams can all be searched for their test records, and so can all of those dogs' offspring. If the record is poor and the buyer is informed I assume they will buy their puppy elsewhere and the breeder will be disciplined by normal free market mechanics of low demand for their poor product, and either stop breeding or produce better dogs.

The GWP breeders I know first hand who are using Breeding restricted registrations (which can be lifted) are producing high quality dogs. They have one year or longer waiting lists for their upcoming litters. They train, hunt, test and screen the dogs they breed and ask the same of the dogs they sell before they are bred. They also replace any dogs they sell which develop a physical or mental defect which shows up within a reasonable amount of time.

Persons who are looking to save a buck by buying an unregistered dog get the dog they deserve and nothing better is my thought on that. I am sure it works out ok for their standards in many instances and I wish them and their dogs all the best. It is extremely easy for those of us who approach our acquisitions differently to steer clear of those unregistered litters.

As to a perfect storm scenario of a World Beater, breeding restricted dog with a deceased breeder: I hope I am never involved in a Breed that becomes so weak that it is down to the one last dog who's genetics can save it. If the dog is that good is it highly likely there are other dogs around with the same or highly related genetics to contribute through breeding.

At the end of the day, yea anything can be abused as your scenarios portray. But the one thing that remains that is always in our control is our own behavior. I believe it is not credible to argue in favor of breeding a dog which cannot pass a Hunt Test or Health Screenings. That someone else might will never become a reason for me to do it.

So I have zero problem accepting behavior that I find as abundantly reasonable, as also reasonable for me to abide by.

Fishmongerjoe
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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by Fishmongerjoe » Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:03 pm

I don’t think field trials are the end all for whether a dog should be deemed eligible for breeding. In fact I’d say health is far more desirable end to breed towards. Field trial dogs can culture undesirable genes the same way conformation breeders and backyard breeders do. Hunters don’t want some high strung whining lab next to them in the blind all day. I don’t care if it can run a 3 mile blind. When hunters find their ideal hunting partner and want to breed the next generation, by averageguys logic this can’t happen if the owner has no desire to field trial. Not everyone wants a field trial champion. Nor do they wish to taylor their training to field trial criteria. Are they supposed to just eat the loss in potential revenue by not being able to sell their dogs as AKC registered? It’s unreasonable to ask someone to enter a world they have no desire to be in just to “proof” a dog.

I’m in no way trying to make this personal. I just trying to see your logic.


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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by shags » Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:16 pm

I think you're correct FM.

A dog needn't be a big winner in any venue or format. I don't think that should be a requirement for registration. Or breeding for that matter. Who is to say anyone's "best dog ever" isn't worthy as long as it does its job well be it National Grand Champion Poobah Prize 10 winner, or a personal gundog family companion whose only award is a ear scratch.

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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by averageguy » Sat Apr 06, 2019 3:30 pm

Fishmongerjoe wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:03 pm
I don’t think field trials are the end all for whether a dog should be deemed eligible for breeding. In fact I’d say health is far more desirable end to breed towards. Field trial dogs can culture undesirable genes the same way conformation breeders and backyard breeders do. Hunters don’t want some high strung whining lab next to them in the blind all day. I don’t care if it can run a 3 mile blind. When hunters find their ideal hunting partner and want to breed the next generation, by averageguys logic this can’t happen if the owner has no desire to field trial. Not everyone wants a field trial champion. Nor do they wish to taylor their training to field trial criteria. Are they supposed to just eat the loss in potential revenue by not being able to sell their dogs as AKC registered? It’s unreasonable to ask someone to enter a world they have no desire to be in just to “proof” a dog.

I’m in no way trying to make this personal. I just trying to see your logic.


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Your response is importantly inaccurate.

What I shared was for my specific Breeding Restricted registration my dog needed to pass an upper level Hunt Test and Health Screenings. Apparently you are a Retriever Man, so in your case the corollary would be an HRC or AKC Hunt test of at least a Senior level. Which is within the grasp of any well trained waterfowl dog and no where near the requirements of a FT. I would not buy a dog where the requirement is a FT.

I already posted that my personal performance criteria is how the dogs do when hunting a variety of wild game in a variety of conditions. This would include open country birds as Huns, Sharptails, Prairie Chickens, as well as Bobwhites and Pheasants in heavier cover, and Waterfowl and Tracking recoveries. In my Breed I would only be interested in a pup from a litter where the SIre/Dam and dogs ahead of them displayed strong natural abilities for those duties from a Breeder who actually uses their Breeding stock in those ways.

My dog's Breeder hunts his dogs on Forest Grouse, Huns, Quail, Chukars and Waterfowl as the principle proving ground of their performance relative to potential breeding. He contends the Hunt Tests are a good measure of a dog's mental state to accept and retain training and I agree with him on that. The Hunt Tests we use include a physical examination of the dog with faults noted, and evaluation of the dog's coat and temperament.

When a Breeder ships puppies all across the US, often to persons they have never gone hunting with, the Hunt Tests do provide a measure of performance vs none and avoids going completely on the evaluation of the dog from its owner, who may not have seen very many dogs in the field.

And let's face it, in the decades I have been involved in the Sport of following Hunting dogs, the World has gone gaga for Hunt Test Titles.

Actual hunting performance means far more to me, but I think any well trained dog can pass a Hunt Test and persons who cannot train their dogs to do so would tend to include some folks who also lack the ability to evaluate their dogs objectively as to whether they should be bred or not.

I have answered your post with good reasoning. If others do not agree it has no effect on me or my dogs, but they won't be buying a puppy from the same Breeders I do.

Still unlikely to persuade you and others, but the Breed Club approach with similar breeding restrictions until the dog is tested, has been used successfully in Europe for over a 100 years and the folks in those circles like the results, and the structure they feel produces and maintains it. The DD, SM, DK, and a subset of the PP and GWP Breeders in the US continue to use the same model and have achieved a great deal of consistent quality in their dogs in doing so. May not be most folks on this board sort of dog but that irrelevant to the fact the approach produces great consistency in those Breed Clubs type of dogs.

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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by cjhills » Sat Apr 06, 2019 3:58 pm

I have bought many puppies over the years, I have never bought one with limited papers. I have a few times paid a bit more for the papers because I thought it was worth it to pay the breeder for the expense of developing a bloodline and doing the health tests I wanted in my program. It was up front and did not require any testing or titles.
I have bought dogs that were NAVHDA bred some were good some were bad. Two from very well known NAVAHDA breeders who had serious genetic issues that cost me a lot of money. This was a well known fact among NAVHDA people.
. I Have bought puppies from small breeders that were as good or better than the NAVHDA dogs. Small breeders can do health tests.
I am convinced that limited registration is mainly good for the breeders bottom line and marketing. The problem is that uninformed buyers are led to believe they are getting some benefit. They are not. the younger people think they get a better dog by paying more. In some cases maybe. But mostly it is better to know what you are buying and what if the seller is hiding something.
All our puppies are sold with permanent registration and have been health tested for four or more generations
Any reasonably competant trainer can train almost any decent pointing to pass AKC hunt tests or NAVHDA tests. So requiring a JH or NA is a scam to promote the kennel.
I do think the wire GWP does a little better with trying to improve Their breed.
Some of the dogs with the worst temperament I have bought were from imported stock who had passed all the tests ..….Cj

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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by averageguy » Sat Apr 06, 2019 4:57 pm

JH or NA puppy tests will not get the Breeding Restricted lifted in GWP breeders I frequent.

The value of the NA test comes in when a majority or more of a litter of pups are tested, it becomes excellent information on the inherited natural ability. Even better is when a Breeders' stock has been NA tested for generations.

The NAVDHA Utility Test required to lift my current dogs Breeding Restriction has AKC Master Hunter level requirements for steadiness to WSF in the Upland portion of the test, all pointed birds are shot with live ammo and must be retrieved to hand once the dog is released to do so, plus the same for marked water retrieve where the dog is required to remain steady by a blind while the handler fires shots while out of sight of the dog, plus a 200 yard drag out of sight of the handler and then retrieved back to hand, plus a minimum of a 10 minute blind retrieve Duck Search with no handling from the handler past the first send, Plus a Heeling segment. All on the same day. Lots of dogs fail to pass, many more do not score a Prize 1.

Take a look at the Fur Mommas/Fur Babies on the GWP FB group, look around for the handful of remaining Weims with sound nerves and performance, see enough soft temperament Vizslas, or Flabradors with extreme conformation/health problems and the need and desire for some breeding restrictions would seem to be self evident. Just this week on that GWP FB group a person with their first "GWP" posted a photo of a white dog with an obviously horrible coat to the point where the end of its docked tail was bare posted looking to Breed the dog. A dog which had never been hunted, never will be hunted and no one knows if the dog can or will hunt.

I see these things and the benefits of Breeding Restrictions (which can be lifted with reasonable efforts on the part of the buyer) are self evident to me.

I am thrilled there are GWP Breeders who require it and I am benefactor of it.

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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by Fishmongerjoe » Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:59 pm

Why pick on the Flabrador? You don’t get to be the most popular dog for 28 years in a row by rolling out a bad product. The proof is in their market share and it’s undeniable. Most issues that I see in labs are human related. Whether it be poor diet and exercise, obedience issues, or trying to breed a 100lb dog into a 70lb package. As much bashing as people try to do, the Labrador retriever is a resounding success story. To say otherwise is disingenuous.

On the other hand, Chesapeakes as a breed are looking at a hip dysphasia rate of 22%. Some have argued that line/inbreeding is the root cause of this issue in the breed. Are we really protecting the breed with limited registration or are we trying to protect what little market share the humble Flabrador has left you?

Just because someone will question my numbers

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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by cjhills » Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:32 pm

AG
Is white not allowed in GWPs. If so my friend who has a MH and dual champion GWP which placed at the Westminister Dog Show is going to be really embarrassed.
Bare tails are not genetic. They are caused by poor tail docking.
Plus there are way more really good Labs then all the pointing breeds combined...….Cj

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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by averageguy » Sun Apr 07, 2019 4:28 am

FM,

Denying the huge and growing segment of poor quality Labs within the pet segment of the Breed is disingenuous.

I assumed you would have the ability to acknowledge it just as I see the same within the GWP breed. It is no reflection on the remaining excellent quality dogs with both breeds, but it is an excellent example of where haphazard breeding takes all Breeds that suffer from it. Which is why I sited to it.

I have hunted with good labs for 45 years and continue to do so annually. It does not cloud my judgement to the point where I cannot also see the huge and growing swell of poor quality animals that are no longer capable of serving the original purpose of the Breed.

CJ,

If you want to hunt waterfowl with an all white dog with a horrible coat have it. I am going to pass. I am also never going to be interested in a pup from a litter where the sire or dam have never been hunted.

The GWP breed came from the DD where the color white is not allowed in the breed. I have never seen a white DD. When someone decided they wanted to win a FT with a GWP was when the white showed up ...

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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by Urban_Redneck » Sun Apr 07, 2019 5:10 am

There are legitimate reasons for Breeding Restricted pedigrees/contracts, it's the sellers choice.

Money can always walk away.

If you come to an agreement with a buyer or seller on milestones that will lift the restriction, abide by it.

Get the complete agreement in writing.

My friend recently went through the agreed process to lift the restriction on his bitch, the breeder took months to send the new pedigree.

It wouldn't be such a contentious issue if breeders would look at owners that health and performance test their progeny as assets to their program rather than, competition. IIRC, there was a BB breeder that refunded NAVHDA test entry fees to owners that tested their dogs because those owners provided honest third party data on their litters. Tailgate and other still photos mean little me, any dog can look great for half a second :wink:

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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by cjhills » Sun Apr 07, 2019 6:40 am

averageguy wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 4:28 am
FM,

Denying the huge and growing segment of poor quality Labs within the pet segment of the Breed is disingenuous.

I assumed you would have the ability to acknowledge it just as I see the same within the GWP breed. It is no reflection on the remaining excellent quality dogs with both breeds, but it is an excellent example of where haphazard breeding takes all Breeds that suffer from it. Which is why I sited to it.

I have hunted with good labs for 45 years and continue to do so annually. It does not cloud my judgement to the point where I cannot also see the huge and growing swell of poor quality animals that are no longer capable of serving the original purpose of the Breed.

CJ,

If you want to hunt waterfowl with an all white dog with a horrible coat have it. I am going to pass. I am also never going to be interested in a pup from a litter where the sire or dam have never been hunted.

The GWP breed came from the DD where the color white is not allowed in the breed. I have never seen a white DD. When someone decided they wanted to win a FT with a GWP was when the white showed up ...
AG
You did not answer my question. Is white color a disqualification for a GWP registration? Or just not your personal choice.
You seem to be insinuating that my friends multi titled dog has never been hunted. Which could not be farther from the truth. We have hunted most of the midwest together.
My brother bred, hunted, trained,tested and trialed labs four sixty years. Over that period the breeds overall health and ability has improved dramatically. Of course there are good and bad dogs, but overall the breed has improved.
I get the legitimate breeders who sell limited papered dogs and everybody has the right to market their dogs or spend their money as they like. But the buyer needs to understand that all are not legitimate breeders and they are not necessarily getting superior dog. That is where it becomes a scam. I have been scammed by "good" breeders, before I learned.
I believe there is a place in every breed for well bred, reasonably priced dogs that look good ,do what the breed was designed to do and the common man with a family can afford. The huge majority of these people will never breed there dogs and most never register them so limited papers makes no difference to them.
It is a bit of an elitist attitude to eliminate the family guy who wants a nice dog to do a little hunting and be a sweet family dog. He can brag
about...…...Cj

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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by Featherfinder » Sun Apr 07, 2019 6:41 am

Determining why Labs outnumber most other breeds is an argument much like the chicken and the egg. The numbers also tell you that a great number of those Labs go to non-working homes. A certain number of those non-working Labs are bred to non-working Labs. The unsuspecting waterfowler sees the sign, "Wonderful Lab Pups for Sale"....
I do not disagree with the NAVHDA process. They have a system that works for them and it is intended to produce dogs that fall within parameters of their standard. Hey....not a bad plan in my opinion.
So, we have a NAVHDA breeder that follows that process until he produces a litter that clearly does not fall within the standards. Then, he sells certain pups without papers/certification and quietly continues his breeding. My point is simply this. NAVHDA, nor most any other respectable organization(s) with good intentions wants to hear that folk are circumventing the process.
Aaaah...but at the ground level we have a MAN! Money always has been and will always cause some folk to make some unscrupulous decisions. That too is not restricted to NAVHDA bred dogs.
Averageguy, I was wondering what in fact happens if a NAVHDA breeder produces a whole litter or many pups that fail to conform with the standards?
At the end of it all there is a duet - one between a decent breeder AND an informed buyer.

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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by Featherfinder » Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:01 am

CJ, the only issue I have with the buyer of a restricted budget dog is that the cost of acquiring a dog is the least expensive aspect of dog ownership today. It wasn't the case in the past but dogs/owners/Vets have changed significantly.
When I had the few litters I had here, I offered options such as a special price for young buyers getting an education or serving, etc. Some folk were allowed to pay me with a plan that worked for them rather than all at once, etc. Even then, my dogs were not exorbitantly priced but I get your intent. It still concerns me for the well-being/future of the pup if he CAN'T afford the going rate of a decent well-bred dog. Further-to-this, we introduce the perpetual "no papers" breeder that is producing dogs without a health history to fall back on, without clearances for high level pre-dispositions, etc. etc. When this buyer has integrated said pup into his family and finds out shortly afterwards that the pup has issues, what does he do? Pay outrageous Vet bills? I doubt that because we've already established he can't afford it. Perhaps the breeder will give another dog for free. Hopefully this time they will be lucky!?!?!
There is no guarantee that registration papers are an assurance that ALL registered pups will be forever healthy but....it's a start. Perhaps that's where the intent of NAVHDA holds water with folk of integrity?
I have here - in actual fact - had a few dogs brought for training of unknown breeding. The numbers do not support this being a good choice for the working dog home. In all cases here alone, the purchase price did not support the acquisition being a wise financial decision. I've no doubt that if we ask a large enough demographic, we will get folk that got their dog virtually for free and have a dog they are happy with. Gosh, how many pups/dogs do you go through to get one decent one and what do I tell my wife/kids about the one(s) that didn't pan out?!? Better yet, what are the chances of getting those "savings" back? :cry:
NAVHDA, registrations papers, etc. do not turn unscrupulous folk into good people.
Last edited by Featherfinder on Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by Fishmongerjoe » Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:14 am

Sorry AG but you provided no proof other than your opinion on pet labs. Fact of the matter is the hunting genes are alive and well in the Labrador lines, American and British. Labradors are thriving as Gundogs and Pets for the warriors of the weekend world wide. Even after multiple decades of “poor breeding” practices.




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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by averageguy » Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:36 am

CJ,

I posted above about a post on a GWP FB group where a white dog with an obviously horrible coat, including a naked end on its docked tail, which had never been hunted was being put forward to breed a litter. Having followed GWPs for 35 years it is not a development in the Breed that I am in favor of.

Of course I said nothing about your Friends dog and these discussions will go a lot easier if we do not infer negative slights where none exist.

That would include refraining from equating my desire to see my chosen Breed's quality be maintained through breeding only quality dogs as somehow an "elistist" slight of anyone.

FF,

The NAVHDA organization has a membership in the thousands and I cannot speak to all of them.

Generically if a litter is produced and registered in NAVHDA its test record and or the lack thereof will be a matter of public record. Those taking advantage of the database will become aware that either the litter was not tested, or for those individuals that were tested how they were scored (in each area scored). If the dogs are not tested at all that alone is telling, and the Test record of those that are speaks for itself, and is excellent information for those who use it.

The NAVHDA system is a tool as is the use of Breeding Restricted Registrations. Whether they serve to better the product or not depends on how well folks use the tool. Used right it has produced some awesome well recognized lines of dogs e.g Shooting Star, Sharp Shooter, Cedarwoods, Thunderhill, Bone Point, Schwarzwald ...

Any Breeder who claims to never produce a dog which not worthy of breeding is a Breeder I will run from. All the Great Breeders have a discerning eye and apply to their breeding dog selections. That they would also want the same for the offspring they produce is not the nefarious money making plot that some make it out to be in this thread.

My current dog's breeder routinely retains puppies from the litters he breeds, develops, tests and hunts the dogs through one or two seasons depending on what he is seeing. Most of those dogs are sold as started dogs vs retained in his breeding program. They are healthy very nice hunting dogs, but for one reason or another his high standards keep him looking vs settling. He does not expect every pup in the litters he produces to be a dog he would retain for breeding and is realistic about his odds of choosing the exact one at 9 weeks of age as he sells the other littermates.

He also has a network of excellent dog people and wild bird hunters who he places puppies with and when some of those dogs rise to the top they are used in his breeding program. Additionally there is a network of GWP breeders who share their excellent genetics cooperatively with each other to the betterment of the Breed.

I see all this and conclude it a great place for me to acquire my puppies and do. It has worked out really well so far.

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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by averageguy » Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:04 am

Fishmongerjoe wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:14 am
Sorry AG but you provided no proof other than your opinion on pet labs. Fact of the matter is the hunting genes are alive and well in the Labrador lines, American and British. Labradors are thriving as Gundogs and Pets for the warriors of the weekend world wide. Even after multiple decades of “poor breeding” practices.




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I attend some Retriever Training days and Hunt Tests in the summer and see some excellent dogs in multiple breeds there, including of course numerous Labs. And I hunt with some nice Labs each season. It is easy to see those working lines of Labs are head and shoulders over the many other haphazardly breed Labs that I come into contact with.

There is plenty of data documenting the increase in health, conformation and temperament problems in Labs. Google if you like or ignore it as you please. Makes no difference to me, I used Labs an easy and obvious example of where haphazard breeding takes all Breeds when they increasingly become more popular as Pets vs working dogs.

The first excellent hunting dog I hunted with was a kid was my Cousin's Airedale. That bitch was everything the Breed once was. I wanted one for own and bought a puppy when I was 15. It had hip dysplasia and was un usable a hunting dog. A lesson hard learned at an early age that has stuck with me.

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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by birddogger2 » Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:40 am

If I purchase an automobile or a house or a lawnmower, it does not come with a "provisional" bill of sale.

If I rent/lease and automobile, house or lawnmower, I sign a contract spelling out the terms of the lease/rental and the responsibilities of both parties. THEN, I pay the monthly fee.

If I purchase a dog, it either has is able to be pedigreed, or it is not... and that condition must be disclosed prior to the sale. I personally would never purchase a dog for which I did not have a free, full and unencumbered pedigree, any more than I would buy an automobile with the contractual requirement that I go back to the seller for any and all maintenance and repair.

For a puppy, I would never put my money down or even take possession of a pup, without a signed certificate, from the breeder, stating that the sire and dam were properly registered and all pups from that litter were able to be registered, in my name, with full breeding and competition privileges. Period. Full and complete paperwork...BEFORE the pup comes home with me and money changes hands.

Just as I would never pay for an automobile, without having a signed bill of sale and a clear title in my hand first.

If the breeder insisted on some performance requirements, as previously discussed by others, before granting unrestricted pedigree privileges, I would expect the breeder to be contractually obligated to pay for some or all of the cost of fulfilling those requirements, because, in very real terms, it is a limited partnership.

RayG

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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by cjhills » Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:42 am

So your Airdale got Dysplasia. What was the lesson you learned?
I bought a linebred Male pup sired by a NAVHDA VC from a well known NAVHDA breeder and several generations of tested dogs. After I spent a lot of time and money on training and titling this very nice, talented dog he produced only one litter in five breedings that did not have puppies with overbites and when a female from that one litter was bred she had two over bite puppies. The breeders response was" I don't plan your breedings"
I learned a couple very expensive lessons that have stuck with me also. all that glitters is not gold. That was the end of his breeding days.....Cj

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Let’s talk about registration

Post by Fishmongerjoe » Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:12 pm

averageguy wrote:
Fishmongerjoe wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:14 am
Sorry AG but you provided no proof other than your opinion on pet labs. Fact of the matter is the hunting genes are alive and well in the Labrador lines, American and British. Labradors are thriving as Gundogs and Pets for the warriors of the weekend world wide. Even after multiple decades of “poor breeding” practices.




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The first excellent hunting dog I hunted with was a kid was my Cousin's Airedale. That bitch was everything the Breed once was. I wanted one for own and bought a puppy when I was 15. It had hip dysplasia and was un usable a hunting dog. A lesson hard learned at an early age that has stuck with me.
No doubt. My 1st hunting dog was a well bred CBR. I swear that dog was born trained and was an awesome dog. The opener of the 2nd split in her 4th season, she left the field limping. After a trip to the vet I was informed of her hip issues. It was truly heartbreaking. I was ensured that she was the exception not the norm. I got another chessie from a different line and you guessed it another case of bad hips. I did my homework on the second and it still ended bad. It really turned me of big talking breeders.

My next dog was a lab bitch from a buddies litter. No hunting or conformation titles just an awesome family dog who hunted the field and water with the best of them. My dog came with registration papers that I never follow through on because she wasn’t going to be bred. But she was 100% mine and has been absolutely amazing but she’s slowing down. She’s getting up in years, she’ll be 7 soon and it’s time to get her replacement in the pipeline. While doing my homework, I keep finding limited registration and frankly it’s totally rubbing me the wrong way. My apologies for getting off on the wrong foot. But I’m having a really hard time shelling out the money these breeders are asking only to find out about this limited registration thing.


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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by cjhills » Sun Apr 07, 2019 3:05 pm

Fishmongerjoe;
I hear you loud and clear. I Think your odds of getting a healthy dog improve greatly by going with dogs that have been x rayed for several generations. It is a crap shoot and not perfect.But it is the best we have. Nobody can guarantee that your pup won't get a genetic disease. I don't know what one should have to pay for a good retriever puppy, But it would seem like $1500 to $2000 should be pretty generous. Don't buy into the purchase price is the cheapest part of owning a dog crap. I would try to locate a local retriever club, they generally have members that test and trial, who have some very good dogs which are not too heavily bred into the big names of the day. Some hunting guides have very nice dogs. In Minnesota I could help you but I don't any out of state breeders...…….Cj

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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by Fishmongerjoe » Sun Apr 07, 2019 4:02 pm

cjhills wrote:Fishmongerjoe;
I hear you loud and clear. I Think your odds of getting a healthy dog improve greatly by going with dogs that have been x rayed for several generations. It is a crap shoot and not perfect.But it is the best we have. Nobody can guarantee that your pup won't get a genetic disease. I don't know what one should have to pay for a good retriever puppy, But it would seem like $1500 to $2000 should be pretty generous. Don't buy into the purchase price is the cheapest part of owning a dog crap. I would try to locate a local retriever club, they generally have members that test and trial, who have some very good dogs which are not too heavily bred into the big names of the day. Some hunting guides have very nice dogs. In Minnesota I could help you but I don't any out of state breeders...…….Cj
Thanks CJ, I appreciate the offer but my needs have changed and I’m moving away from retrievers and in the direction of spaniels. I find myself hunting less water and more fields these days.

One Boykin breeder in particular is asking $2k for a dog with limited regs. I just can’t wrap my head around it.


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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by cjhills » Sun Apr 07, 2019 4:10 pm

Maybe you need a nice pointing dog I know a lot of them, for a lot less than that.....Cj

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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by ezzy333 » Sun Apr 07, 2019 6:49 pm

shags wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:24 am
Averageguy wrote
I find it impossible to credibly argue I should have the freedom to breed a dog which cannot pass health screenings and be trained to pass a Hunt Test (which includes an evaluation of the dogs' coat and temperament) as the bare minimum requirements. The AKC side of my Breed is a growing mess, with horrible coats, temperament and health problems, declining field performance as they become more popular as pets.

And yet the breeder finds it ok to produce puppies that they think might not meet physical or mental (training) standards as apparent by the restricted registration? What stops a breeder from continually producing subpar dogs, offering limited registration, thereby letting themselves off the hook ( not saying your breeder does this at all).

Not to mention any buyer can breed his/her dog and sell them cheap as purebred but unregistered "Oh, the mother is a real good dog, I just never registered her and lost the papers".

What happens if a future World Beater is sold with limited registration, but the breeder dies, moves, gets sick, etc and full registration never becomes available for an outstanding dog?

Just more to think about, I think :D
If a pup doesn't meet your standards of perfection then to no offer it for sale as a purebred that is even eligible to be registered.

JMO
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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by Featherfinder » Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:28 pm

If you produce one litter with the best of intentions, health certifications, pedigree etc. you stand a good chance of producing a "decent litter" - 100% success! If you've been breeding for 42 years, it's conceivable you've had a bad outcome or two.
Getting a dog with hip dysplasia after having generations of excellent OFAs is simply sad for EVERYONE....but it does happen.
Sometimes, it is what it is. (No, this nor anything similar did not happen to me but to call me a breeder would be a mistake too.)
Through the various registrations/health clearances etc., a breeder does their best. Some things are just out of our control in life and it pains me to hear some of the situations mentioned above however we live in the REAL world and as they say, "Stuff" happens.

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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by greg jacobs » Sun Apr 07, 2019 9:02 pm

Glad I'm a shorthair guy. There are lots of nice litters to choose from. I don't have to buy a pup without full registration. Breeders can choose to provide only limited registration papers until they are satisfied. And I can choose to find another litter. Pretty simple.

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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by Fishmongerjoe » Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:04 am

cjhills wrote:Maybe you need a nice pointing dog I know a lot of them, for a lot less than that.....Cj
I’ve considered it but o think a springer or Boykin will suit my need better at this point.


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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by shags » Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:55 am

Are Boykins not a relatively new akc registrable breed?

If I were looking for a working dog I would stay away from akc breeders and find one who registers with another organization.
As in Border Collies, Jack Russells, Jagdterriers etc it seems like bench breeders are in the forefront of these newly recognized breeds and that is where the paperwork nonsense comes from. Bench people are not famous for preserving working characteristics, by and large; witness the drive to breed out "eye" in Border Collies because they find it creepy or something.

Depending on which is the original registering body, you may be able to dual register with akc. If not, you should be able to apply for an ILP number which would allow you to enter the dog in hunt tests.

IME some non akc breeders do health testing, but some do not. I ask about things like hip dysplasia and have received answers like "It pops up once in a while but hasn't been a problem for us" which makes sense to me, because working lines need to be able to work.

Good luck in your search.

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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by Fishmongerjoe » Mon Apr 08, 2019 5:28 am

shags wrote:Are Boykins not a relatively new akc registrable breed?

If I were looking for a working dog I would stay away from akc breeders and find one who registers with another organization.
Yes they’re a fairly “new” breed. I found this particular breeder through the Boykin spaniel society which the dog would be registered through. They claim that they only breed hunting dogs and all their dogs can be traced back to Boykin Zero. Honestly, even if I go with the Boykin, it would probably be through another breeder at this point.

I’m leaning towards springers, the springer field trial group comes off as way less pretentious than the cult like atmosphere in Boykin land.



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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by cjhills » Mon Apr 08, 2019 5:48 am

I know some Field bred Springer breeders also. Springers are getting on the high priced end of the scale.
Pine Shadows In Minnesota is one of the largest breeders in the USA. They have been breeding Springers for 60+ years. Their pups are expensive and their waiting lit is long. But their web site is interesting. Check it out. My grandson has one of their dogs she is very nice. When you buy a pup from them it is yours . They do a lot of socializing with their puppies and don't send them home until at least 8 weeks. I love Field Springers...... Cj

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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by averageguy » Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:41 am

Featherfinder wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:28 pm
If you produce one litter with the best of intentions, health certifications, pedigree etc. you stand a good chance of producing a "decent litter" - 100% success! If you've been breeding for 42 years, it's conceivable you've had a bad outcome or two.
Getting a dog with hip dysplasia after having generations of excellent OFAs is simply sad for EVERYONE....but it does happen.
Sometimes, it is what it is. (No, this nor anything similar did not happen to me but to call me a breeder would be a mistake too.)
Through the various registrations/health clearances etc., a breeder does their best. Some things are just out of our control in life and it pains me to hear some of the situations mentioned above however we live in the REAL world and as they say, "Stuff" happens.
Yes which supports Health screening all dogs before they are bred, including those dogs from generations before with good or excellent hips.

Unless you just want to roll the dice without knowing if the dog you are breeding has excellent/good hips and the accompanying much lower statistical risk of passing on genetic hip dysplasia to their offspring.

And let's not let the much lower risk of bad hips from a kennel line of generations of dogs with good hips become a smoke screen for the much higher statistical risk of hip dysplasia from generations of dogs which have not been screened for having excellent/good hips and the much lower risk which accompanies it.

The one hip dysplastic airedale I experienced was in an era where very few dogs were being screened and the Breed was in severe decline in both sound health and hunting ability. It was 45 years ago, I was a kid who wanted a hunting airedale like the excellent one I had hunted with, no one had a website, home computers did not exist...

We have much better tools these days and I buy my pups from the Breeders who use them.

FMJoe,

I appreciate the response. I see where you are coming from as $2K is getting mighty steep for a puppy. I am not sure of your timeframe but I corresponded, monitored and observed dogs from several breeders for 3 years before I bought my last one. I started my search far enough ahead such that I had a dog to hunt while looking for my next one. It gave me time to get to know the Breeder I selected and be comfortable with him and his dogs.

It also allowed me to understand the terms of his sale were a good thing and posed absolutely no threat to me or my ownership of a future dog or its potential use.

We have become Friends, I have traveled to his home, ate dinner in his home with his family, he saw my dog on birds, we have plans to get together next season and hunt some western birds.

All this fiery talk in this post about downsides of a Breeding Restricted Registration (which can be lifted when reasonable terms are met) are pure BS compared to my actual experience with the matter. I am not attempting to talk anyone/you into it, rather I am giving you an actual data point of how it works when done correctly for the right reasons with the right people.

Best of Luck in your Search and all that follows from that.

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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by birddogger2 » Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:23 am

FMJ -

I hunt and trial behind pointers...FDSB American Field bred pointers.

They are, of course, not without some genetic issues...no breed is.

However, most of those issues are unrelated to performance. The reason for that is quite simple. Pointers are bred for one purpose...to seek and find birds. They ain't all that pretty, they ain't all that cuddly, they ain't cute and they are definitely not fashionable.... They are bird finding machines that have been bred for that specific purpose for a couple hundred years now. Dogs that do not perform...are simply not bred because no one wants them.

I do not know any FDSB pointer breeders that do testing for dysplasia. It is so rare in FDSB pointers that the testing would be a waste of time and money. To be sure, there are other issues, but ability to run and find birds ain't one of them. With pointers, pretty is...as pretty does.

As a pointer owner, I continue to find it borderline amusing that I can find pups from the very best of the best...and I mean, National Champion lineage and more...for far less than half the price of some of the more "desirable" breeds. Three years ago, I purchased a pup(3rd pick) from a litter sired by a National champion and paid $800. That pup's 5 generation pedigree had 29 AF champions in it out of the 64 dogs. Four years prior to that, I purchase a pup pout of an AF champion that had 31 champions in its 5 gen pedigree. I have routinely been able to purchase pups with 20 and as high as 34 American Field champions in their 5 gen(64 dog) pedigrees. There was absolutely no question about full registration for that pup, or any of the others I have bought over the years. There was also absolutely no question about whether or not the pup would hunt.

Whatever breed you settle on, I suggest that you focus on the performance issues that are important to you and find a breeder with a history of producing dogs that meet those performance requirements. Registration and pedigrees are pieces of paper. The dog is what does the hunting...not the paper.

RayG

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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by Fishmongerjoe » Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:51 am

cjhills wrote:I know some Field bred Springer breeders also. Springers are getting on the high priced end of the scale.
Pine Shadows In Minnesota is one of the largest breeders in the USA. They have been breeding Springers for 60+ years. Their pups are expensive and their waiting lit is long. But their web site is interesting. Check it out. My grandson has one of their dogs she is very nice. When you buy a pup from them it is yours . They do a lot of socializing with their puppies and don't send them home until at least 8 weeks. I love Field Springers...... Cj
I bookmarked them. Thanks!


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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by Fishmongerjoe » Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:45 am

birddogger2 wrote:FMJ -

I hunt and trial behind pointers...FDSB American Field bred pointers.

They are, of course, not without some genetic issues...no breed is.

However, most of those issues are unrelated to performance. The reason for that is quite simple. Pointers are bred for one purpose...to seek and find birds. They ain't all that pretty, they ain't all that cuddly, they ain't cute and they are definitely not fashionable.... They are bird finding machines that have been bred for that specific purpose for a couple hundred years now. Dogs that do not perform...are simply not bred because no one wants them.

I do not know any FDSB pointer breeders that do testing for dysplasia. It is so rare in FDSB pointers that the testing would be a waste of time and money. To be sure, there are other issues, but ability to run and find birds ain't one of them. With pointers, pretty is...as pretty does.

As a pointer owner, I continue to find it borderline amusing that I can find pups from the very best of the best...and I mean, National Champion lineage and more...for far less than half the price of some of the more "desirable" breeds. Three years ago, I purchased a pup(3rd pick) from a litter sired by a National champion and paid $800. That pup's 5 generation pedigree had 29 AF champions in it out of the 64 dogs. Four years prior to that, I purchase a pup pout of an AF champion that had 31 champions in its 5 gen pedigree. I have routinely been able to purchase pups with 20 and as high as 34 American Field champions in their 5 gen(64 dog) pedigrees. There was absolutely no question about full registration for that pup, or any of the others I have bought over the years. There was also absolutely no question about whether or not the pup would hunt.

Whatever breed you settle on, I suggest that you focus on the performance issues that are important to you and find a breeder with a history of producing dogs that meet those performance requirements. Registration and pedigrees are pieces of paper. The dog is what does the hunting...not the paper.

RayG
Thanks for the advice. All of my dogs are expected to pull double duty and be well mannered with my family in addition to the bird drive. The off switch must be part of the machine as it helps while we are waiting in the duck blind or dove field for the next volley. My goal is to eventually run a couple of dogs as part of the pick-up crew at tower shoots that are local to me to extend the season and a retirement gig for my lab once the new dog is trained up. The people that pay big money for this type of hunt don’t take kindly to unsteady dogs. I’m looking hard at UKC lines because this is a big deal in their testing. A big running pointer probably isn’t the right choice for me at this time.




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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by JONOV » Mon Apr 08, 2019 1:53 pm

Fishmongerjoe wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:56 am
Well that’s a relief. I thought I was going to get a bunch heat for even posting the question. I’m glad my opinion is in line with most rational adults.

I’m thinking it’s best to avoid the limited registration crowd and put my efforts into a dog that’s mine instead of “mine”.


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I'll say that sometimes, a limited registration can be a good thing. For example, I found a home for a dog from the same breeder I got my pup from. She had microopthalmion, which meant one eye never developed right and didn't see (or see well.) It looked like a dead eye. He sent it with limited registration since obviously that dog shouldn't be bred. But, should her owners wish to do something like Obedience, Rally, AKC hunt tests, etc, they can do so. I could see a similar argument made for one with other obvious faults, IE a tricolor GSP or GWP, or a lemon GSP or GWP. I saw a litter of GWP's that were lemon last year, they were sold with limited registrations.

Mostly though, I think its basically a breeders non-compete. If a breeder doesn't want a dog that carries their name and pedigree being bred without their control/permission. Some of it is selfishly making sure they don't profit off the work they've done, some of it is making sure their "legacy" or whatever isn't perverted. IE, if I own Red Partridge Kennels, and sell you Red Partridge's Bond Hunter, and the dog has a crummy bite and a mean temeprament and you breed it a few times, now there are all sorts of dogs that have my kennel name and crummy bites and temperament concerns.

But overall, if a breeder's default position is either co-ownership or limited reg, I don't want to buy their dog largely because I don't think they'll be the type that I want to do business with.

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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by JONOV » Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:41 pm

Fishmongerjoe wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:45 am
birddogger2 wrote:FMJ -

I hunt and trial behind pointers...FDSB American Field bred pointers.

They are, of course, not without some genetic issues...no breed is.

However, most of those issues are unrelated to performance. The reason for that is quite simple. Pointers are bred for one purpose...to seek and find birds. They ain't all that pretty, they ain't all that cuddly, they ain't cute and they are definitely not fashionable.... They are bird finding machines that have been bred for that specific purpose for a couple hundred years now. Dogs that do not perform...are simply not bred because no one wants them.

I do not know any FDSB pointer breeders that do testing for dysplasia. It is so rare in FDSB pointers that the testing would be a waste of time and money. To be sure, there are other issues, but ability to run and find birds ain't one of them. With pointers, pretty is...as pretty does.

As a pointer owner, I continue to find it borderline amusing that I can find pups from the very best of the best...and I mean, National Champion lineage and more...for far less than half the price of some of the more "desirable" breeds. Three years ago, I purchased a pup(3rd pick) from a litter sired by a National champion and paid $800. That pup's 5 generation pedigree had 29 AF champions in it out of the 64 dogs. Four years prior to that, I purchase a pup pout of an AF champion that had 31 champions in its 5 gen pedigree. I have routinely been able to purchase pups with 20 and as high as 34 American Field champions in their 5 gen(64 dog) pedigrees. There was absolutely no question about full registration for that pup, or any of the others I have bought over the years. There was also absolutely no question about whether or not the pup would hunt.

Whatever breed you settle on, I suggest that you focus on the performance issues that are important to you and find a breeder with a history of producing dogs that meet those performance requirements. Registration and pedigrees are pieces of paper. The dog is what does the hunting...not the paper.

RayG
Thanks for the advice. All of my dogs are expected to pull double duty and be well mannered with my family in addition to the bird drive. The off switch must be part of the machine as it helps while we are waiting in the duck blind or dove field for the next volley. My goal is to eventually run a couple of dogs as part of the pick-up crew at tower shoots that are local to me to extend the season and a retirement gig for my lab once the new dog is trained up. The people that pay big money for this type of hunt don’t take kindly to unsteady dogs. I’m looking hard at UKC lines because this is a big deal in their testing. A big running pointer probably isn’t the right choice for me at this time.




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I think that your missing the point, which is that different circles of the sporting dog world have different mores as far as what's "normal" or expected. I'd make a joke about Field Trial pointers being so cheap because the horse's (and trailers and 1 Ton trucks to haul it all) consume the other expendable income. :D But Ray is right, if all you want is a pointing dog for upland, a Pointer is the way to go. They aren't all big running.
Fishmongerjoe wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:03 pm
I don’t think field trials are the end all for whether a dog should be deemed eligible for breeding. In fact I’d say health is far more desirable end to breed towards. Field trial dogs can culture undesirable genes the same way conformation breeders and backyard breeders do. Hunters don’t want some high strung whining lab next to them in the blind all day. I don’t care if it can run a 3 mile blind. When hunters find their ideal hunting partner and want to breed the next generation, by averageguys logic this can’t happen if the owner has no desire to field trial. Not everyone wants a field trial champion. Nor do they wish to taylor their training to field trial criteria. Are they supposed to just eat the loss in potential revenue by not being able to sell their dogs as AKC registered? It’s unreasonable to ask someone to enter a world they have no desire to be in just to “proof” a dog.

I’m in no way trying to make this personal. I just trying to see your logic.


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IF a venue of competition or evaluation is antithetical to what you're trying to do, why would you buy from a breeder that uses that venue as his proofing grounds? It sounds like your looking at UKC tests which are more applicable to someone wanting a utilitarian hunter. They aren't trials. Take GSP's. There are field trial lines that are much bigger running and much more high strung, NAVHDA lines which are less so, DK's which are bred to a different standard of testing, etc.

No one is saying that trial performance is the be-all and end-all. Health testing is important. Temperament is important. So is hunting ability. The problem with taking someones word that "Mom and Dad are Great Hunters" is that it doesn't mean anything. Most limited registrations that I've seen have included health testing and performance markers at one level or another.
averageguy wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:06 am
I find it impossible to credibly argue I should have the freedom to breed a dog which cannot pass health screenings and be trained to pass a Hunt Test (which includes an evaluation of the dogs' coat and temperament) as the bare minimum requirements. The AKC side of my Breed is a growing mess, with horrible coats, temperament and health problems, declining field performance as they become more popular as pets.
I agree with you, in practice, I probably would want a dog with the same qualifications you mention.

However, I'll turn that around on you. What makes a breeder so dang qualified to be the arbiter of what should be bred or not? In practice, I'll have a long discussion with the breeder about their dog contracts and expectations, etc.

From what I've seen, there are some very vocal breeders that are supposedly breeding high quality dogs that have real temperament problems that no one seems to talk about. Yet they're often the first to patronizingly talk down to someone that pipes up interested in breeding a dog they have.
Despite these two kennels reputation, health, conformation, and number of UT and IT dogs carrying their name, I'd roll the dice on a backyard bred GWP with nothing more than a tailgate shot at a game farm as a reference to their ability if the dogs had nice temperaments.

averageguy
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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by averageguy » Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:33 pm

JONOV wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:41 pm
averageguy wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:06 am
I find it impossible to credibly argue I should have the freedom to breed a dog which cannot pass health screenings and be trained to pass a Hunt Test (which includes an evaluation of the dogs' coat and temperament) as the bare minimum requirements. The AKC side of my Breed is a growing mess, with horrible coats, temperament and health problems, declining field performance as they become more popular as pets.
I agree with you, in practice, I probably would want a dog with the same qualifications you mention.

However, I'll turn that around on you. What makes a breeder so dang qualified to be the arbiter of what should be bred or not? In practice, I'll have a long discussion with the breeder about their dog contracts and expectations, etc.

From what I've seen, there are some very vocal breeders that are supposedly breeding high quality dogs that have real temperament problems that no one seems to talk about. Yet they're often the first to patronizingly talk down to someone that pipes up interested in breeding a dog they have.
Despite these two kennels reputation, health, conformation, and number of UT and IT dogs carrying their name, I'd roll the dice on a backyard bred GWP with nothing more than a tailgate shot at a game farm as a reference to their ability if the dogs had nice temperaments.
JONOV,

Not sure if you saw my last post but I got to know the Breeder of my current dog over several years. Decades of buying used vehicles, tractors, farm equipment off of Craigslist has required me to develop a good ability to size people up through a combination of asking the right questions, listening and observing. It was easy to see he was a honest and good person in all phases of his life, Father, Husband, Employee, Breeder, Hunter, Friend.

I did run across one Breeder who breeds excellent dogs (my dog's grandfather top and bottom is the same dog and from that Breeder), but the guy had an obvious short fuse and was arrogant. I checked him off the list because of it. I expect he would be difficult to deal with if a problem arose.

So I was comfortable with the Breeder I selected and that if we had a problem to work through we would. But even that was not necessary because the Limited Registration is Lifted upon successful passing of a NAVHDA Utility Test and acceptable outcomes of Hip and Thyroid Screenings. The agreement does not call for the Breeder to have a say in the matter and those conditions speak for themselves. They are either met or they are not. Which really means the ball was totally in my court as far as developing, training and testing my dog and I did. Had the Health screenings come back with negative results the Breeder is obligated to replace the dog if I choose to do so. They came back with good results.

I would add however that I have great respect for the Breeders judgement having been at it for over 20 years and over 40 litters, and evaluating his results in all ways possible, always. He hunts his dogs extensively on Huns, Quail, Pheasants, Chukars, grouse and Waterfowl.

Regardless of Registration I recommend that no one should buy a dog from someone they are not comfortable with.

Backyard Breeders - the term is so over used and mis-used. Other than early socialization, the quality of a litter is completely linked to the genetics of the sire/dam. The scale or even experience of the Breeder do not affect genetics at all. The Breeder's experience does affect their ability to evaluate the quality of the sire/dam but it does not affect the genetics. I see many instances of persons who have bought a really nice puppy from an excellent proven line of dogs, done a nice job developing, training and hunting the dog and then want to raise a litter of pups. Nothing wrong with that, and I would be comfortable buying a puppy from such a source provided I got comfortable with the quality of the sire/dam and Health screenings.

JONOV
Rank: Champion
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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by JONOV » Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:48 am

averageguy wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:33 pm
JONOV wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:41 pm
averageguy wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:06 am
I find it impossible to credibly argue I should have the freedom to breed a dog which cannot pass health screenings and be trained to pass a Hunt Test (which includes an evaluation of the dogs' coat and temperament) as the bare minimum requirements. The AKC side of my Breed is a growing mess, with horrible coats, temperament and health problems, declining field performance as they become more popular as pets.
I agree with you, in practice, I probably would want a dog with the same qualifications you mention.

However, I'll turn that around on you. What makes a breeder so dang qualified to be the arbiter of what should be bred or not? In practice, I'll have a long discussion with the breeder about their dog contracts and expectations, etc.

From what I've seen, there are some very vocal breeders that are supposedly breeding high quality dogs that have real temperament problems that no one seems to talk about. Yet they're often the first to patronizingly talk down to someone that pipes up interested in breeding a dog they have.
Despite these two kennels reputation, health, conformation, and number of UT and IT dogs carrying their name, I'd roll the dice on a backyard bred GWP with nothing more than a tailgate shot at a game farm as a reference to their ability if the dogs had nice temperaments.
JONOV,

Not sure if you saw my last post but I got to know the Breeder of my current dog over several years. Decades of buying used vehicles, tractors, farm equipment off of Craigslist has required me to develop a good ability to size people up through a combination of asking the right questions, listening and observing. It was easy to see he was a honest and good person in all phases of his life, Father, Husband, Employee, Breeder, Hunter, Friend.

I did run across one Breeder who breeds excellent dogs (my dog's grandfather top and bottom is the same dog and from that Breeder), but the guy had an obvious short fuse and was arrogant. I checked him off the list because of it. I expect he would be difficult to deal with if a problem arose.

So I was comfortable with the Breeder I selected and that if we had a problem to work through we would. But even that was not necessary because the Limited Registration is Lifted upon successful passing of a NAVHDA Utility Test and acceptable outcomes of Hip and Thyroid Screenings. The agreement does not call for the Breeder to have a say in the matter and those conditions speak for themselves. They are either met or they are not. Which really means the ball was totally in my court as far as developing, training and testing my dog and I did. Had the Health screenings come back with negative results the Breeder is obligated to replace the dog if I choose to do so. They came back with good results.

I would add however that I have great respect for the Breeders judgement having been at it for over 20 years and over 40 litters, and evaluating his results in all ways possible, always. He hunts his dogs extensively on Huns, Quail, Pheasants, Chukars, grouse and Waterfowl.

Regardless of Registration I recommend that no one should buy a dog from someone they are not comfortable with.
I know what you mean. Having a relationship with the breeder makes things much different.
averageguy wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:06 am
Backyard Breeders - the term is so over used and mis-used. Other than early socialization, the quality of a litter is completely linked to the genetics of the sire/dam. The scale or even experience of the Breeder do not affect genetics at all. The Breeder's experience does affect their ability to evaluate the quality of the sire/dam but it does not affect the genetics. I see many instances of persons who have bought a really nice puppy from an excellent proven line of dogs, done a nice job developing, training and hunting the dog and then want to raise a litter of pups. Nothing wrong with that, and I would be comfortable buying a puppy from such a source provided I got comfortable with the quality of the sire/dam and Health screenings.
It reminds me of what a breeder (who has bred nice GSP's for 25 years) said about the term, "Ain't never seen the whelping box in the front yard." Everyone is a "Back Yard Breeder" til they become a puppy mill it seems. Most of us aren't in a position like a Bob Whele or some of the Pointer Kennels. In the GWP show-ring world it seems like co-ownership is the name of the game with breeders able to place dogs in similarly minded homes.

cjhills
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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by cjhills » Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:18 pm

A interesting fact is that the average AKC breeder lasts 3 years. No matter how bad a breeder would be he will have basically no effect on his chosen breed. most of his puppies will not be registered and probably none will be bred.
The bigger issue in popular breeds is dogs that are Promoted by breeders who set out to build breeding program and don't find out they have a genetic issue until their NFC has sired 50 big name dogs and have 1,000 offspring on the ground I 2or 3 generations. The lab people know the names to stay away from. Some of these kennels have very high prices and very strict registrations.
IMO the breed started out with issues right from the beginning. By OFA statistics ,and the dogs I see, they are Improving.
Some of the GWP breeders with restricted breeding rights have temperament issue =that are affecting the breed..……..Cj

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Urban_Redneck
Rank: Senior Hunter
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Location: NE PA

Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by Urban_Redneck » Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:06 am

Beware the breeder whose requirements to lift a restriction on a pup are beyond those of the sire and dam the pup came from.

quailaddict
Rank: Just A Pup
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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by quailaddict » Thu May 09, 2019 12:20 pm

Limited Registrations are BS! Just like hip and eye guarantees that if you actually read are not a guarantee at all. I wouldn't buy a dog with one. If I pay someone for a dog I will own it fully and the previous owner or breeder will not have any rights or influence on what I will do with that dog.

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CDN_Cocker
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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by CDN_Cocker » Sun May 12, 2019 5:54 am

The only thing limited registration tells you is that you need to be looking for a different breeder.

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