GSP Training Progress questions.

[barefooter]

Hello,

I have a GSP (16 month old male) that is 3 months into a 4 month program with a respected local trainer that does mostly labs. They have several decades of experience and my dog was only accepted after a puppy hunt test and trial period. At every visit (about every 2-3 weeks) I come out to I'm assured he is a fantastic bird dog and doing great but I'm just not seeing it.

He loves birds and guns too much is what the trainer tells me. The trainer has to hold him back physically from breaking when throwing a dummy/bird in the water and his retrieves to hand are still sloppy. He will drop a bumper and then goof around for a bit before picking up and bringing back closer but not to hand very often from what I see. Not much different from when he was 3,4,5,6 months old. He is getting more steady on land with placed pigeons but I was expecting a lot more control 3 months into training. I really don't see a night and day difference after 90 days. Please keep in mind this is my first trained dog so I'm not sure where they should be at this point.


When I ask the trainer they say he has so much hunt drive that it takes time to steady him without killing his love for hunting by correcting it out of him too much. I have very little dog training experience so I don't want to be questioning a pro and their process. I keep being assured the dog is progressing well.

Trainer tells me that I will have a steady dog that retrieves to hand once training is done. Im looking for feedback on where a dog should be after a few months of professional training. I don't want to pull him from training before the trainer is given the chance to "put the pieces together". However, my family is starting to miss the dog and I wonder if I am just wasting time and will need to send him somewhere else down the road. Any insight would be great.

[Trekmoor]

This may not be of much use to you as I don't use American training methods. By 16 months old I expected the GSP's I trained to be working just about well enough to win a field trial. I have had a GSP and a Brittany that had won trials by 14 months old. I train dogs in a slow way compared to what I've read about "American style" training and so I feel your trainer should be further ahead than what you reported.

On the other hand because the two dogs I mentioned were owned by me they got a lot of individual attention from 8 weeks onwards to bring them up to the standard I wanted . It, in reality, took a lot more than just 3 - 4 months. I go for a slow and steady progress.

I do feel that after 3 months of training your dog should be pointing and holding point and he should not need to be physically held in order to prevent a run-in. Your dog should at least be steady to thrown bumpers by now. He should also be holding his bumpers until you decide to take them from him.
I.M.O. for your trainer to say your dog is not yet steady and a reliable retriever because he is so keen is just a bit of flattery designed to keep you a bit happier.

Just my opinion from the other side of the Atlantic.

Bill T.

[Urban_Redneck]

I'll ask the obvious question, why did you take a bird dog to a retriever trainer?

It's good that the trainer is concerned about crushing the dog's soul. However, it sounds as if the trainer doesn't have enough pointy dog experience to find the right buttons to press on your dog.

All dogs are different and I've never sent a dog off for training, but, did the trainer give you an outline of milestones your dog should reach at 1 month, 2 months,3 months, etc ? Is your agreement $XX for a "finished" dog or was left open ended? I would expect a pretty steady dog after 3 months with a pro.

[shags]

Sounds like your dog was enrolled in Gundog U. instead of Birddog U. or kind of like having a professor of biochemistry teach a course in astrophysics...smart competent guy, just out of his field and most likely having to read the chapter before class.

Be happy that your trainer has taken the time and is trying to preserve your dog's intensity and drive. But find a pointy dog trainer and move the dog.

Almost all the dogs I've sent to a trainer were pretty much finished after 3 months. The 2 boneheaded hyper-driven ones who weren't finished at least looked finished part of the time.

I would avoid anything like "3 month program" scenarios. Pointing dog training takes as long as it takes, and putting a time frame on it guarantees nothing. What if a dog catches on quick and has his lessons down in two months...what happens during that last month? Does the dog sit in the kennel, or does he repeat basic lessons over and over until that last month is up? On the other hand if the dog is slow to learn, and requires more time, the client can feel disappointed and taken advantage of, or the trainer might push too fast to meet the 'deadline'.

[birddogger2]

Barefooter -

I concur with Shags on this. Based on what you have said, your trainer is apparently focusing on the retrieving part of the equation. In my opinion, unless you are planning on doing Navhda or a whole lot of waterfowling, that is the wrong thing to focus on first.
I get that the trainer is a retriever trainer, so it makes sense that they will want to do what they do best...but... if your plan is to hunt the dog, you want that dog to be steady or at least staunch(which I define as holding point until I flush the bird).

The retrieve can come later. Honestly, it probably will anyway. Focusing on the retrieve first may well actually be counterproductive in some ways as it is kinda encouraging the dog to "break and chase" the shot bird.

I have pointers and honestly, I do not encourage them to retrieve. I want them to stand their birds and not think about doing anything else. If I can't walk over, bend down and pickup a bird I have shot... well...'nuff said.... Once the dog is rock solid on its birds, getting a nice retrieve is the icing on the cake... for me.
Even if it does not do a great job of retrieving at first...so you don't have the icing...but you still have your cake. Next season....

Honestly though, I have never had a pointer that would not retrieve and have never seen and cannot even imagine a decently bred shorthair that wouldn't do a fine job of retrieving.

In my experience, if a professional bird dog trainer cannot get a year and a half old pointer, setter or GSP steady in three months, it is probably time to pull the plug on that trainer.
I'm not talking about steady with a good retrieve, but rather just staunch or steady(not 100% but pretty reliable).

The last thing I want to mention to you is that it is my understanding that retriever trainers who train for competitive level performance, typically use VERY high levels of stimulation in the course of that training. Even the hardest headed GSP's do not need that level of stim to be brought along to point birds.

In fact, if I work with a dog on getting it steady, it is usually more productive(at least for me) to use stim rather sparingly and judiciously and use a check cord and especially my hands on the dog instead.

I suggest that you have a serious talk with the trainer and tell them to let the retrieving bit go and to focus on steadying the dog. The dog has been with the trainer now for three months, so it kinda makes sense to finish it out. If you were to take the dog to another trainer, it would be two to four weeks before the dog acclimated to the new trainer anyway.

Find out if they use a bench, a barrel, a placeboard a whoa post, heel/whoa drills to do the steadiness work. Explore the HOW with the trainer, in some detail, so that you are both on the same page regarding expectations for the upcoming month of training.

Actually, I would encourage you to spend a day or more with the trainer to watch and learn what they are doing, so that you can continue the same drills and methods when you get the dog home. Training the trainer is always desirable.

RayG

[Featherfinder]

I agree with most before me. Trekmoor strikes the nail right on the head though. While all dogs are different, his quote I believe is salient:
" I (Trekmoor) do feel that after 3 months of training your dog should be pointing and holding point and he should not need to be physically held in order to prevent a run-in. Your dog should at least be steady to thrown bumpers by now. He should also be holding his bumpers until you decide to take them from him."
That is typical here too - on this side of the Atlantic. There is the rare exception but they truly are RARE.
I'm not here to bash your current trainer because I can't see your dog before me nor what said trainer has invested/accomplished.
In closing, I add I also do not see your dog's pedigree. Some bird dog breedings simply don't have the genetics/fabric for being splendid working bird dogs. Sad....but true.

[barefooter]

Spoke at length with the trainer. He said he was surprised of my concern and called me right back after I texted him because he has been very happy with the dogs progress. He only takes dogs that he evaluates and says mine was good to start with and I am going to be very happy with the finished product.

They are working on finishing up his steadiness but fully expect him to be steady on bumpers and birds in the next few weeks. He says for me to come out this weekend and he will get a field trial judge to meet me and dog to discuss his opinion and progress. Won't ask for any more payment until i'm happy with the dogs progress.

[Sharon]

Spoke at length with the trainer. He said he was surprised of my concern and called me right back after I texted him because he has been very happy with the dogs progress. He only takes dogs that he evaluates and says mine was good to start with and I am going to be very happy with the finished product.

They are working on finishing up his steadiness but fully expect him to be steady on bumpers and birds in the next few weeks. He says for me to come out this weekend and he will get a field trial judge to meet me and dog to discuss his opinion and progress. Won't ask for any more payment until i'm happy with the dogs progress.

Sounds like a fair trainer to me. My trainer used to send me weekly updates ; this solves a lot of problems for a trainer and the client.

[birddogger2]

Spoke at length with the trainer. He said he was surprised of my concern and called me right back after I texted him because he has been very happy with the dogs progress. He only takes dogs that he evaluates and says mine was good to start with and I am going to be very happy with the finished product.

They are working on finishing up his steadiness but fully expect him to be steady on bumpers and birds in the next few weeks. He says for me to come out this weekend and he will get a field trial judge to meet me and dog to discuss his opinion and progress. Won't ask for any more payment until i'm happy with the dogs progress.

Sounds like a fair trainer to me. My trainer used to send me weekly updates ; this solves a lot of problems for a trainer and the client.

I agree. This trainer is doing the right things to make sure you are happy with what is going on. Not sure what more they could do. I'm actually kinda impressed.

RayG