Great competition always makes you better.

Post Reply
chaynes
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:47 pm
Location: South Central Virginia

Great competition always makes you better.

Post by chaynes » Mon Aug 05, 2019 3:21 pm

Ok so don't shoot me yet. But my step father used to always tell me if I wanted to get better at a sport to play with the bigger kids or pro's. He would say that when I play ball with my brother he gets better but I did not really gain anything from beating up on him in a game. Now while my brother dispised me during the game of what ever sport we were playing and sometimes I thought he might actually take me down if I wasn't six years older, afterwards we still loved each other and at the end of the day thats what mattered. Now in most competitions the top team, player, organization or what ever is usually hated or loved. (Dallas Cowgirls vs. Americas team) Okay with that being said I have noticed (atleast in my area) that GSP's are taking over. Winning lots of events and doing it in awesome fasion. The shorthairs look good and perform. Now while I am a Brittany man at heart I recently became the proud owner or a field breed Weimaraner and can not wait to show him off. That make GSP's my public enemy #1. Now while I would be quick to tell a friend that wanted a bird dog that a shorthair would be a great option if it fit their familys life style, I can not wait for an owner to be like "where did that grey dog come from". My question is does anyone else share in this love hate relationship with me? Or are there others that just enjoy proving why their shorthair is on top? Maybe some of you feel this way about setters or spinones? Let me hear what you think :twisted:

shags
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2717
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:57 pm

Re: Great competition always makes you better.

Post by shags » Mon Aug 05, 2019 5:06 pm

I agree about better competition makes one a better competitor. Stats-wise, a win is a win, a loss is a loss, but there's a certain pride that comes with winning against really good dogs. And losing to them doesn't sting quite as much 8) Most of the folks I know appreciate a good dog regardless of breed. Doesn't mean everyone would want that breed as their own, but they enjoy watching the dogwork.

We have great all breed competition in my area so ya better come ready to win, and take your lumps when you don't. At one of my club's trials, we had the National or National Amateur CHs in Brittanies, GSPs, GWPs , Weims, Irish Setters, Pointers, and Gordon Setters. There isn't a dominant breed per se, but there is always a "hot" dog no matter where you go.

"Respect all, fear none" was printed on my daughter's fastpitch practice tee and I think it's a wise motto for any competitor.

birddogger2
Rank: 3X Champion
Posts: 544
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:15 am
Location: Lower slower Delaware

Re: Great competition always makes you better.

Post by birddogger2 » Mon Aug 05, 2019 7:41 pm

I cut my field trial teeth in central NJ. The competition hereabouts is absolutely brutal. Great dogs and highly skilled handlers. It still is.

You can get whipped by a pointer a setter(of ANY description, Red English, Red and white and Gordon), a wirehair a shorthair, a Britt, a Vizsla or a Weim. There have been and still are, competitive dogs hereabouts in every one of those breeds. Even for the half hour weekend stakes, you had better bring your A game.

From the outset I was competing with some of the very best shooting dogs in the country in the American Field stakes. Even in AKC stakes, there were national level competitors in just about every breed of pointing dog. The club I belong to has hosted trials with National Breed Champion level dogs from several breeds in competition.

Soooo...I got used to getting beat, but the funny thing was, it was handler error that put me out of the winners circle, more often than it was not having enough dog.

When I could still walk a lick, I had a couple dogs that were pretty competitive in walking stakes. Had a pointer gyp that ran with a flat tail, so, no joy in AF...but I finished her FC with all her points coming in open all age AKC stakes. The all age shorthair guys used to hate to see me come down the lane back then. THAT was kind of a nice feeling in a strange sort of way.

I still compete and truly enjoy it. I absolutely enjoy watching a dog put down a great performance... and if it is my dog, it is a little sweeter, but, if not...it is still a great performance and I feel blessed to have been able to witness it, whether it was as competitor, reporter or judge.

As Shags said, competition forces you to either step up your game or fold your tent.

Funny thing is, when I have done my best, my dog has done their best and we did it together, I'm pretty happy with that. I have a drawer full of ribbons and a few bowls and such, but the memories of marvelous performances are what really mean something to me.

RayG

Trekmoor
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1917
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:09 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Great competition always makes you better.

Post by Trekmoor » Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:20 am

I hadn't thought I was a competitive type until I competed in dog events of various kinds. I got lucky first time out in an obedience arena competition and won, then I won the 2nd and 3rd obedience competitions too and got a swollen head that was very quickly reduced in size when I entered my first ever retriever trial..... I got kicked out of that for having an uncontrolled dog ! :roll: :oops:

I did more training and then I won but the competition was pretty good and pretty fierce in retriever trials so I lost a lot more often than I won ! I met and listened to many of the "old time" trialers and they helped me a lot...…provided I could take some very blunt critiscism ! I took it and came back for more of the same and then they really "went to town" on me. They taught me a lot and I will be forever grateful to them for their freely given advice and for their often "offensively verbally laced" critiscisms ! :lol: If you could take it and come back for more they would help you all they could. If you took offense then they just dumped you and left you to your own, probably inadequate, devices.

In todays atmosphere of political correctness I have met many newbies who are completely unwilling to accept criticism unless it is sugar coated. I am not good at "sugar coating," I tend to be like the auld timers who taught me. It is the newbies loss, not mine.

So ....yes, I do think that strong competition makes you a better trainer …..if you want to win you have to "be better."

Bill T.

birddogger2
Rank: 3X Champion
Posts: 544
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:15 am
Location: Lower slower Delaware

Re: Great competition always makes you better.

Post by birddogger2 » Tue Aug 06, 2019 8:19 am

I do think that amateur field trials are some of the competitions where "you gotta win it" to win it and everyone else is a loser. It is all too common today to get awards for "participation".

I agree that it is vital to the sport to encourage participation by younger folks, and that mentoring is the absolute best way to bring that along. I was incredibly fortunate to have been mentored by an extraordinarily talented amateur trainer and to be on first person speaking terms with the owner of what was perhaps the most successful shooting dog field trial kennel in the country at the time. When I wanted a puppy, all I had to do was ask how much and the pup was reserved. If I needed help, advice, a referral...all I had to do was ask. I guess they saw that I was just as crazy as they were.

However, the new competitor has to be in it for the correct reason. That reason HAS to be the desire to see a dog do amazing things in the field. The pure joy of watching a dog do something amazing in the field kindles, in some folks, a burning desire to do that ... and more, with their own dog.

A really good dog, has an unquenchable, burning desire to do what they do and will do whatever it takes. Funny thing is... I can say the same thing about a lot of very successful field trial competitors.

If it is about the person and the person's needs...it probably won't last, because, you are gonna get beat a lot more often than you are gonna win. In a twenty dog stake there are nineteen losers. That is how it is if you measure winning and losing by who got the blue ribbon. That is hard for an individual who is used to getting recognition just for showing up and even harder for an individual that is used to winning at pretty much everything.

If, however, it is primarily about the dog... there is no telling where that can lead.

RayG

User avatar
Sharon
GDF Junkie
Posts: 9113
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 4:46 pm
Location: Ontario,Canada

Re: Great competition always makes you better.

Post by Sharon » Tue Aug 06, 2019 3:15 pm

Ah yes - my best day- beating a pro's dog . :) Well yes, it was a derby stake but .......LOL And those judges - of course they were often wrong about my dog. :wink: Competition can always be a good learning experience.
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

chaynes
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:47 pm
Location: South Central Virginia

Re: Great competition always makes you better.

Post by chaynes » Sat Aug 17, 2019 9:18 am

I enjoyed reading all of the replies. I do love seeing a dog when they are on top of their game. I personally love criticism. It only makes aware of what needs to be improved on and I need all of that I can get. Most of the time I find it is not the dog but the owner/trainer who dropped the ball. In the past when I had some brittanys they often taught me I was wrong when they produced birds and I was totally off. Either way to me I feel like competing and being around the best you learn more which makes you better. And at the end of the day for me it's about watching the dog work and be productive than having a bird in the bag.

User avatar
Featherfinder
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 934
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 3:15 pm

Re: Great competition always makes you better.

Post by Featherfinder » Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:46 pm

In the competitive world, if there are 40 entries there is only one winner. The other 39 are losers.
Come-on Shags...there are 2 breeds that still are to this day the ultimate breeds regardless of what the market/sales bears. If you are unsure, check out The Nationals. Let me know how many short-tails you see listed as winners.
Further-to-that, you can sell a Vizsla for about 4 times the value of a quality pointer. How does the cost reflect value?!?
I work with a wide spectrum of breeds. Even in developing gun dogs, (if you ignore The Nationals) I see the superior performance from pointers/setters on a consistent basis. It doesn't mean other breeds can't do the job. Just saying'....
If you've never owned/driven a Corvette, you sincerely believe a Camaro is the ultimate.

shags
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2717
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:57 pm

Re: Great competition always makes you better.

Post by shags » Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:31 am

There are washouts and difficult dogs from the pointersetter world too. Maybe the difference is they wind up in shelters or a ditch while the off breeds get more of chance or opportunity with their owners who are willing to send the dogs to trainers.

When a National Birddog Champion swings on up this way from Ames Plantation and enters a weekend AKC trial, I will very happily run against him/her :D

A few years back a V won or was runner up over West, I think it was Region 9? Maybe there are specimens from other breeds that could be competitive at longtail trials if longtail guys would give them a look. How long did it take them to grow a pair and use a setter at Ames :D

birddogger2
Rank: 3X Champion
Posts: 544
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:15 am
Location: Lower slower Delaware

Re: Great competition always makes you better.

Post by birddogger2 » Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:19 am

As a lifelong pointer owner, I certainly have my preference for breeds clearly demonstrated. I have competed in all age stakes, but honestly, I prefer shooting dog type performances. I absolutely have a personal preference for longtail dogs because I really like how they look when on point, but hopefully, when I judge, I make the necessary adjustment when looking at Brittanys and continentals. You cannot fault a dog for not having a tail if it is not supposed to. You cannot fault a dog for having a different gait than a pointer or a setter, if that is the gait the breed is supposed to have.

I have seen some spectacular dogs that were not pointers over the years. Some of them were English setters. Several were Red/Irish setters. Several were German Shorthairs. A couple were Brittanys and a couple were Vizslak.

When I say spectacular, I mean not just head and shoulders above the competition that day BUT also a performance that caused me to move my own personal benchmark for excellence in some aspect of a field trial performance.

RayG

mask
Rank: 4X Champion
Posts: 632
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Idaho

Re: Great competition always makes you better.

Post by mask » Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:15 pm

shags might want to look at past winners at the NC at Ames . On a slightly different topic, how do you suppose breeds other than pointers and setters magically became competitive in horse back trials?

shags
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2717
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:57 pm

Re: Great competition always makes you better.

Post by shags » Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:46 pm

Well, I know that from the beginning of the National Championship in 1896 until 1915, setters dominated. Then up til the 1930s pointers won about 4 or 5 to 1. After Mississippi Zev won in 1946 there was a setter drought until 1970 when Johnny Crockett won. Then another 43 years went by before Shadow Oak Bo showed up to win twice.

I would say 4 setter wins in 73 years isn't exactly overwhelming :wink:

birddogger2
Rank: 3X Champion
Posts: 544
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:15 am
Location: Lower slower Delaware

Re: Great competition always makes you better.

Post by birddogger2 » Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:39 am

mask wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:15 pm
shags might want to look at past winners at the NC at Ames . On a slightly different topic, how do you suppose breeds other than pointers and setters magically became competitive in horse back trials?

And you might want to look at the history of the Grand National Grouse Championship as an alternative view. I strongly suspect that you will find a much higher percentage of English Setters in the winners column in that venue.

Horses for courses.

As a shooting dog competitor, I am actually fairly uninterested in the dogs that win the national at Ames...from a breeding standpoint. Generally outstanding dogs, but honestly, not my kind of dog, for the most part. I like to have some of that genetic "steel" in my dog's pedigree for run and endurance, but it doesn't need to be first generation and actually I prefer if it is not.

I do, however, very much like and value the fact that they can be re-programmed from all age competition where extreme run and perhaps one find in an hour is the benchmark to what is essentially a three hour shooting dog stake that is run at a relatively lackadaisical pace, compared to what is typically run here in the East.

RayG

Post Reply