Young dog to hunt with older dog

[northwoodshunter]

So I have a 8 month old shorthair that is very high energy, but in the field does very well and has since he was 5 months. He got a prize 2 at his NA test because the judges gave a 3/4 in cooperation which I agree with and a 3/4 in search(which I personally disagreed with as well as his trainer did too). I recently moved to grand forks for the school year and have the pup with and bring the Setter in October. I took the pup to a game farm for their annual youth days and guided with planted released birds and he did great, retrieved the one he had a chance for to hand, and pointed probably 20+ birds between the guiding and scratch birds after words. I worked him with someone else’s pointing lab and he handled and searched great and didn’t run with the other dog distracted. I am home for the weekend and went to run both dogs at once where I occasionally find my released quail from summer training, and all my pup did was run and chase after my older setter and trying to play and yipping and barking, which I got him to not do the bark and yip, but he only searched for a good 2 casts maybe before he went back to running after him. How can I get him to not chase the other dog around as I am going to hunt them together during season and guide with them together. The shorthair pup points till I flush(usually) doesn’t chase too far after bird goes and retrieves decent already. My Setter is pretty much fully broke standing till I release and usually always at least shot. But the shorthair has a natural back to a point and seeing how well he was able to handle his own birds and not run with the lab made me think I’d hunt them together more than I was originally planning on doing instead of mostly separate I was thinking mostly together or 50/50. But I need him to actually hunt not follow. Any suggestions would be great.
Thanks in advance.

[cjhills]

He is a very young dog. Don't expect to much. He probably needs a lot more training and experience. Hunting him with the other dog should be very limited for now. let him learn on his own first. Let him run with the other dog in a nonhunting situation to get used to it.
Wondering why he pointed 20 birds and only had one retrieve at the game farm....Cj

[northwoodshunter]

He only had one retrieve because a majority of birds were not killed as the people hunting over were youth. It was a youth day thing to gets kids into it and let them shoot some and there were different things for them to do. And the other dog got to the retrieve a couple times before he did and there was 1 or 2 he didn’t see go down when a second bird would get up after the first.

[Sharon]

IMO pup needs a season of training on his own.
Refreshing to see a young person working dogs on his weekends.

[northwoodshunter]

I was initially going to do mostly just him for hunts and training but was thinking maybe doing more of pairing them. But if most think it’ll be better to do mostly alone I’ll probably do alone most the time besides the big family hunts I’ll probably run both. Sharon- I enjoy working the dogs. Even during the day after school we go to any area we can and work on retrieving then get out in fields game farm or at home when we get the chance. Otherwise I just make sure to get him his exercise and work on what we can with obedience and retrieve.

[nevermind]

I'm surprised the older dog hasn't lit into the pup.

[northwoodshunter]

When the pup really gets on him and catches up and is trying to bite at him to play, then he stops on a dime and gets him. But when he’s not trying to bite he hasn’t. But the young pup doesn’t get super close often. He’s too big and clumsy yet(8months and already 60+lbs). He can’t turn quick enough when the older dog patterns to keep up.

[Featherfinder]

May I ask why you want to run more than one dog at a time? Is there a time constraint?
It sounds like your GSP is simply needing to mature. He needs to have positive experiences finding birds and negative experiences chasing other dogs.

[Trekmoor]

I'd let the pup play with the older dog but would not let it hunt with it for a good while yet. I don't like to see what I call "ghosting." This is when one dog just moves along with a hunting dog instead of going in search of it's own birds. I prefer to work my pups on their own until they are experienced on game and are keen enough to be "jealous hunters" that very much want to find and point their own birds.

I agree with the others who have said your pup is still too immature mentally to hunt instead of play.

Bill T.

[northwoodshunter]

I’ll do mostly alone work then until he’s a little more mature and can handle it. I want to be able to run them together because I haven’t had a problem with more than one or multiple dogs and people hunting a field and I think they need to be able to work well together. Now if that takes a full season or two then so be it, but for these two in particular they compliment each other well with how they work. The shorthair could change in some ways but how he is now, and he’s had multiple birds shot over him and tons of birds pointed at the trainers and at home when I work him on birds so he’s got the very basic jist of it. But my Setter gets out there and holds his birds well so I let him go and let him do what he does. And the shorthair naturally has been staying closer than the Setter does but definitively not bootlicking. The setter won’t retrieve anything but quail and the shorthair so far retrieves anything he can. The shorthair also backs naturally to a point. That’ll get worked on later after a season for sure maybe two. So I could see it beneficial to run them together when the pup is ready. There is and isn’t time reasons also. Depends on the day of the week. Weekends no but during the week I have to work against time as I’d be going out after my classes. But I agree that I wouldn’t want him to be and start ghosting as said.

[MSU Aggie]

Ive been in your exact situation almost every time i add a pup. I will typically call the younger dog back to me and cast them in a different direction, sometimes 180 degrees from the older dog. If they attempt to go back to following they get a NO and i try to redirect, reinforcement with the collar if needed but i try to avoid it if i can. Most figure it out pretty quick.

[shags]

Sometimes it helps to run the young dog alone with birds on the ground so that he gets his mind on finding birds instead of playing with his bracemate. It's time consuming to put birds out, run the young dog, possibly work birds, then run the older dog. But it's far better than letting the young one go heading, tailing, and bumping which can soon lead into blowing his natural backs then stealing points which require more time and hassle.

It sounds like you have a pair of really nice dogs. Before long you'll have a brace of brag dogs, so be patient. Best of luck with them and with school.

[setterpoint]

you answered your on question, if it's a problem don't do it, for now I agree hunt the young dog alone more
birds will get his mind off playing, and hunting for birds

[DeLo727]

I agree with many that hunting that young dog on his own is important. The less variables you can throw into the mix the better. Control the situation

[northwoodshunter]

Yeah it shouldn’t be too much of a problem to run them mostly separate this season. The only thing I’m worried about is leaving a dog in a crate or in the box while I’m running the other dog and someone taking one of them. But I figured since he worked so well with the other dog that weekend that maybe he’d run well with him too. But I guess he just had to mature a little more, and since he was a pup he’s been playing with this older dog that he is doing this with so I get that adds to the situation.

[birddogger2]

Yeah it shouldn’t be too much of a problem to run them mostly separate this season. The only thing I’m worried about is leaving a dog in a crate or in the box while I’m running the other dog and someone taking one of them. But I figured since he worked so well with the other dog that weekend that maybe he’d run well with him too. But I guess he just had to mature a little more, and since he was a pup he’s been playing with this older dog that he is doing this with so I get that adds to the situation.

If you are uncomfortable leaving one dog behind in a crate or such because of thieves... I would invest in some stout locks for the dog kennel. If the dog left behind is inside the locked vehicle, perhaps an alarm and camera. A trained dog is worth a fair bit of money, so we are probably talking grand theft. The local police would probably be very interested.

FWIW, I am also in the camp of letting the young dog learn its trade by itself. A youngster can learn lots of things from an older dog, but, in my experience, they seem to pick up on the bad stuff much more than the good. Hunt the young dog by itself.

RayG