I have two male pudelpointers, one is 5 and the other will be 2 in a couple months. In the almost 2 years we have had them together they have truly fought maybe 5 or 6 times but 3 of them have been in the last ~6 months as the younger one is becoming very bold. They've never broken the skin of the other, just scratches or a bit of missing hair has been the worst of it before being broken up. I'm not sure how far it would go without intervention though. A year ago the younger dog would quickly back down but I don't think that is the case anymore and from what I remember of something that happens so quickly he's physically the equal of the older dog now. [edit: more specifically I think the younger dog used to be more defensive in a fight but is a more active participant now that he's equally strong] I'm looking for advice on how to handle this and what I have done so far.
Food:
The younger dog is extremely food crazy. He needs to eat out of a slow bowl to not throw up and after finishing immediately starts looking for an opening to the older dogs bowl. The older dog has no interest in the younger dogs food but has learned that if he leaves his bowl it will get stolen so now he will lightly growl or yelp if the younger dog gets too close. I feed them about 10ft apart from each other with me in the middle and verbally correct any growling or barking or overexcitement, primarily from the younger dog.
Birds:
Here the older dog is a problem with possessiveness. This is primarily a training issue I think that will be worked on this winter more aggressively and it is easy to avoid trying to pose them around a pile of birds or letting them crowd together under a tailgate with birds on it. Just mentioning because it's a problem I specifically attribute to the older dog. I plan on really trying to nail down basic obedience (that I have slacked on this last year due to work) and also going through a force fetch program with both of them.
Toys/Play:
Both of them are only concerned with what the other one has. No matter how many toys we have their only game is to pick one and keep it away from the other. They are very vocal and constantly "growl" (not a mean growl, the way they do when excited) while the other barks and runs around. This is normally playful because they do it everyday but it has preceded a couple of the fights is the most concerning situation to me because I can't really predict it and it may happen when somebody else is watching them. The latest fight and probably the most seriously happened in the middle of this and, after breaking it up, they were back to running around in the yard playing 10 minutes later. I don't know how to correct this other than to stop their play when they seem to be getting too into it.
I've never had two dogs before (or even one dog before I got the older one) so I don't know what is normal with two high energy dogs in the same household. Is 5 or 6 fights in almost two years "normal" or something I need to be worried about? Do the steps I'm taking sound reasonable or what would you recommend I do in these situations? Sorry for the book but I wanted to explain as well as I could!
Dogs fighting
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art hubbard
- Rank: Master Hunter
- Posts: 259
- Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 7:57 pm
- Location: idaho
Re: Dogs fighting
First of all you must have a barrier of some sort between them when you feed, separate kennels or rooms. This sounds as tho it has gotten out of hand. Never should got this far. My experence has found that once they have a grudge this will never end. Hate to say it but I think you should get rid of one of them,and maybe get a female if you really have to have two dogs. Just my opinion..Art
Re: Dogs fighting
I won't go into detail with my tales of woe re fighting pairs of dogs, but I know firsthand that it's not easy to deal with, it escalates, and it probably will require the dogs are separated if you aren't there to supervise. I had two pairs that fought. The snarling snapping stuff turned into what could have been fights to the death as the dogs got older. I take the blame because I didn't straighten them out the instant the idiocy started. We lived with the consequences until one of them died at 13 or so. It was awful.
What I learned and applied to subsequent dogs. We've had up to 6 in the house at one time with no problems even with a pain in the neck jagdterrier.
Let the older dog teach a young pup about respect. Older dogs don't usually have to go beyond a growl/snap with a very young pup and they establish their pecking order. This works until the pup gets a bit older. If the pup isn't a dominant type, you're good to go. If he does get bossy, there is work to do. You are past this but maybe it will help someone else.
Teach "leave it". This comes in handy with possessiveness, and also when you see the dogs getting started into mixing it up. One "Leave it!" only, no nagging.
For food, separate the dogs more so they aren't eyeballing each other. When the fast eater is finished, put him outside so the slowpoke can finish in peace. Don't allow one to wander over and check out the other's bowl.
Get rid of the toys as long as the dogs are competitive with them. All toys do is cause trouble unless you have one dog who likes them and the other dog doesn't care.
With any food or toy possessiveness (if you can't bring yourself to deprive your pups) , if one "leave it" doesn't work, introduce the dogs to Jesus. Food and toys are YOURS and you benevolently allow the dogs to eat and play. I grab a collar, lift front feet a little off the floor, and shake the suckers all the while telling them no. Then remove the object. It's YOURS not theirs, and your are the Boss Dog or Queen 8itch, depending on how you identify
You have to watch and act immediately each time, don't let things go in the hope that the dogs will settle down.
For your older dog and birds, do not allow possessiveness. Those birds do not belong to him so he does not have a right to guard them. Don't let the dog bask in the afterglow near the tailgate. In training or hunting, take turns with who points and who honors. Do not allow stealing point. That would earn my dog some box time.
Good luck with your dogs. Hopefully they won't escalate, but most likely they will unless you take charge. FWIW neutering one or both did not help with my fighters.
What I learned and applied to subsequent dogs. We've had up to 6 in the house at one time with no problems even with a pain in the neck jagdterrier.
Let the older dog teach a young pup about respect. Older dogs don't usually have to go beyond a growl/snap with a very young pup and they establish their pecking order. This works until the pup gets a bit older. If the pup isn't a dominant type, you're good to go. If he does get bossy, there is work to do. You are past this but maybe it will help someone else.
Teach "leave it". This comes in handy with possessiveness, and also when you see the dogs getting started into mixing it up. One "Leave it!" only, no nagging.
For food, separate the dogs more so they aren't eyeballing each other. When the fast eater is finished, put him outside so the slowpoke can finish in peace. Don't allow one to wander over and check out the other's bowl.
Get rid of the toys as long as the dogs are competitive with them. All toys do is cause trouble unless you have one dog who likes them and the other dog doesn't care.
With any food or toy possessiveness (if you can't bring yourself to deprive your pups) , if one "leave it" doesn't work, introduce the dogs to Jesus. Food and toys are YOURS and you benevolently allow the dogs to eat and play. I grab a collar, lift front feet a little off the floor, and shake the suckers all the while telling them no. Then remove the object. It's YOURS not theirs, and your are the Boss Dog or Queen 8itch, depending on how you identify
You have to watch and act immediately each time, don't let things go in the hope that the dogs will settle down.
For your older dog and birds, do not allow possessiveness. Those birds do not belong to him so he does not have a right to guard them. Don't let the dog bask in the afterglow near the tailgate. In training or hunting, take turns with who points and who honors. Do not allow stealing point. That would earn my dog some box time.
Good luck with your dogs. Hopefully they won't escalate, but most likely they will unless you take charge. FWIW neutering one or both did not help with my fighters.
Re: Dogs fighting
2 dogs here . The JRT will abuse the old setter any chance he gets.
our solutions:
When we go out or to bed , the JRT is kenneled.
The are fed in separate rooms. Setter eats slowly so the JRT is kept in a separate room until the setter is finished.
If the JRT gets abusive in front of me , he is "disciplined".
Setter at least needs to be able to sleep and eat in peace.
our solutions:
When we go out or to bed , the JRT is kenneled.
The are fed in separate rooms. Setter eats slowly so the JRT is kept in a separate room until the setter is finished.
If the JRT gets abusive in front of me , he is "disciplined".
Setter at least needs to be able to sleep and eat in peace.
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett
Re: Dogs fighting
I've had that , especially among the males and food aggression. I stepped in right away, my house, my rules and there is no fighting. When it comes to aggression that is one area where I do not tolerate letting the dogs figure it out. If I ever get a dog I cannot handle in the future due to aggression, down the road it goes. Do what you must do to step up YOUR alpha role, but it for the meantime it sounds like they must be fed at different times in different areas, worked seperatly in the field and no toys. Road them hard and get that energy out.
Re: Dogs fighting
As others have Implied this problem comes from a leaderless pack. I have had as many as four males, all who were breeding dogs, with females in season in the next kennel with no fighting. Females are worse sometimes right before they come into season. Very nice tempered females will try to kill each other.
these dogs do not see you as the top dog. Be aware of little things, like putting their foot on yours, going in or out ahead of you, jumping on you or anticipating commands. Doing things you want them to do before you tell them is not being on the same page with you. It is being a page ahead. You need to assume the leader roll. This is more about attitude and how you present yourself to the dogs. Discipline is swift, harsh , over and done with.
A good, hard, well placed kick when they fight is pretty effective. Which ever dog dominates may try to take on you so don't let it happen. Stop it now.
The easy thing to do when feeding is feed them in crates. This also gives you some time to train them. Train then to "kennel" on command, feed them and leave them crated for a hour or more. don't be the mealtime policeman. Like shags said lose the toys. Obviously they will find something to tease each other with. Force fetch can help that. Every thing is yours and you make the decisions on who gets what. More discipline will solve the issues. If not it will escalate and it is expensive to have the vet sew up your dogs...…….Cj
these dogs do not see you as the top dog. Be aware of little things, like putting their foot on yours, going in or out ahead of you, jumping on you or anticipating commands. Doing things you want them to do before you tell them is not being on the same page with you. It is being a page ahead. You need to assume the leader roll. This is more about attitude and how you present yourself to the dogs. Discipline is swift, harsh , over and done with.
A good, hard, well placed kick when they fight is pretty effective. Which ever dog dominates may try to take on you so don't let it happen. Stop it now.
The easy thing to do when feeding is feed them in crates. This also gives you some time to train them. Train then to "kennel" on command, feed them and leave them crated for a hour or more. don't be the mealtime policeman. Like shags said lose the toys. Obviously they will find something to tease each other with. Force fetch can help that. Every thing is yours and you make the decisions on who gets what. More discipline will solve the issues. If not it will escalate and it is expensive to have the vet sew up your dogs...…….Cj
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Featherfinder
- Rank: 5X Champion
- Posts: 934
- Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 3:15 pm
Re: Dogs fighting
I like what Shags , Sharon and CJ suggested, for the most part. I do not think adding more hostility (physical discipline) will be remedial in this situation. It can actually escalate the situation in certain circumstances. Be firm and completely relaxed when you have to intervene because YOU are THE BOSS. Act like it. If you are upset, it's a sign of having lost control. That is the exact opposite of what this situation requires.
What I would want to investigate is their conduct in a fenced area when you are not physically present. For example, my friend has a nasty German Shepherd next to his auto service shop. This dog is very aggressive towards ANYONE accept the owner and yet, his lead mechanic can feed and administer drugs to this dog WHEN THE OWNER IS NOT THERE. The minute the owner arrives....look out! When this chap asked me why his dog is like that, I told him it's because you nurtured that reaction, whether you are prepared to admit it or not. He denied it. Months went by. He recently admitted, "He might have wanted the dog to protect his family, the property....."
Next, I'd watch what your dogs do when they urinate. Urinating is a bodily requirement based on fluid intake/processing....not territorial marking. Dogs that mark territorially are "in charge"....period. Do not allow it.
The fix now is going to be challenging but not insurmountable. A big part of the issue is as Shags and CJ mentioned - you have not clearly established yourself as the head honcho. No...you don't do so by beating the snot out of them! As shags mentioned, you own everything they want/need. Act like it. Be confident and firmly in control. Accept nothing short of what is right.
Stop fussing over them, petting - that means physically or verbally. They should EARN whatever they get, including food, and "Sit" before feeding is NOT earning food!
Separate them during feeding time as Sharon suggested.
As many know, I don't run 2 dogs at once, but I digress.... You should not hunt these 2 together now until they understand that they do so for YOU. Hunting these2 together now is like pouring gas on the fire, especially if you shoot a bird that lands between them! FF will help but it won't resolve the underlying issue.
I crate my 2 dogs (1 male + 1 female) together when we travel and they are asked to come out of the kennel (one-at-a-time) when "I" call their name and "I" decide who that is. It varies.
If your dogs are resting in the same room as you, walk slowly/gently through the middle of them and expect them to move out of your way. Yes, you can go around them - there's plenty of room, I know...but you will walk where YOU decide and they must move.
Feed them at slightly different times and vary which one is fed first. ANY interest towards the eating dog from the dog not being fed should mean he gets "placed" and cannot move until you allow it.
Finally, if you want professional intervention, see a canine behavioral specialist.
These dogs do not respect you and it's not because you are not a good/loving owner. Different canine personalities require rules specific to their fabric. Some are happy with life. Some are a pain in the asterisk and need structure....just like people.
What I would want to investigate is their conduct in a fenced area when you are not physically present. For example, my friend has a nasty German Shepherd next to his auto service shop. This dog is very aggressive towards ANYONE accept the owner and yet, his lead mechanic can feed and administer drugs to this dog WHEN THE OWNER IS NOT THERE. The minute the owner arrives....look out! When this chap asked me why his dog is like that, I told him it's because you nurtured that reaction, whether you are prepared to admit it or not. He denied it. Months went by. He recently admitted, "He might have wanted the dog to protect his family, the property....."
Next, I'd watch what your dogs do when they urinate. Urinating is a bodily requirement based on fluid intake/processing....not territorial marking. Dogs that mark territorially are "in charge"....period. Do not allow it.
The fix now is going to be challenging but not insurmountable. A big part of the issue is as Shags and CJ mentioned - you have not clearly established yourself as the head honcho. No...you don't do so by beating the snot out of them! As shags mentioned, you own everything they want/need. Act like it. Be confident and firmly in control. Accept nothing short of what is right.
Stop fussing over them, petting - that means physically or verbally. They should EARN whatever they get, including food, and "Sit" before feeding is NOT earning food!
Separate them during feeding time as Sharon suggested.
As many know, I don't run 2 dogs at once, but I digress.... You should not hunt these 2 together now until they understand that they do so for YOU. Hunting these2 together now is like pouring gas on the fire, especially if you shoot a bird that lands between them! FF will help but it won't resolve the underlying issue.
I crate my 2 dogs (1 male + 1 female) together when we travel and they are asked to come out of the kennel (one-at-a-time) when "I" call their name and "I" decide who that is. It varies.
If your dogs are resting in the same room as you, walk slowly/gently through the middle of them and expect them to move out of your way. Yes, you can go around them - there's plenty of room, I know...but you will walk where YOU decide and they must move.
Feed them at slightly different times and vary which one is fed first. ANY interest towards the eating dog from the dog not being fed should mean he gets "placed" and cannot move until you allow it.
Finally, if you want professional intervention, see a canine behavioral specialist.
These dogs do not respect you and it's not because you are not a good/loving owner. Different canine personalities require rules specific to their fabric. Some are happy with life. Some are a pain in the asterisk and need structure....just like people.
Last edited by Featherfinder on Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:10 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Re: Dogs fighting
If your dogs fight each other they will likely fight other dogs. If you are a hunter this will be trouble when hunting with friends and their dogs and is a good way to lose them. I don't let my dogs fight under any circumstances and they get punished if they even growl. That means a spanking. Two males that have been allowed to fight will continue to do so.How about just keeping them in separate areas.
Re: Dogs fighting
FF:Featherfinder wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:58 amI like what Shags , Sharon and CJ suggested, for the most part. I do not think adding more hostility (physical discipline) will be remedial in this situation. It can actually escalate the situation in certain circumstances. Be firm and completely relaxed when you have to intervene because YOU are THE BOSS. Act like it. If you are upset, it's a sign of having lost control. That is the exact opposite of what this situation requires.
What I would want to investigate is their conduct in a fenced area when you are not physically present. For example, my friend has a nasty German Shepherd next to his auto service shop. This dog is very aggressive towards ANYONE accept the owner and yet, his lead mechanic can feed and administer drugs to this dog WHEN THE OWNER IS NOT THERE. The minute the owner arrives....look out! When this chap asked me why his dog is like that, I told him it's because you nurtured that reaction, whether you are prepared to admit it or not. He denied it. Months went by. He recently admitted, "He might have wanted the dog to protect his family, the property....."
Next, I'd watch what your dogs do when they urinate. Urinating is a bodily requirement based on fluid intake/processing....not territorial marking. Dogs that mark territorially are "in charge"....period. Do not allow it.
The fix now is going to be challenging but not insurmountable. A big part of the issue is as Shags and CJ mentioned - you have not clearly established yourself as the head honcho. No...you don't do so by beating the snot out of them! As shags mentioned, you own everything they want/need. Act like it. Be confident and firmly in control. Accept nothing short of what is right.
Stop fussing over them, petting - that means physically or verbally. They should EARN whatever they get, including food, and "Sit" before feeding is NOT earning food!
Separate them during feeding time as Sharon suggested.
As many know, I don't run 2 dogs at once, but I digress.... You should not hunt these 2 together now until they understand that they do so for YOU. Hunting these2 together now is like pouring gas on the fire, especially if you shoot a bird that lands between them! FF will help but it won't resolve the underlying issue.
I crate my 2 dogs (1 male + 1 female) together when we travel and they are asked to come out of the kennel (one-at-a-time) when "I" call their name and "I" decide who that is. It varies.
If your dogs are resting in the same room as you, walk slowly/gently through the middle of them and expect them to move out of your way. Yes, you can go around them - there's plenty of room, I know...but you will walk where YOU decide and they must move.
Feed them at slightly different times and vary which one is fed first. ANY interest towards the eating dog from the dog not being fed should mean he gets "placed" and cannot move until you allow it.
Finally, if you want professional intervention, see a canine behavioral specialist.
These dogs do not respect you and it's not because you are not a good/loving owner. Different canine personalities require rules specific to their fabric. Some are happy with life. Some are a pain in the asterisk and need structure....just like people.
I will tell you I have never been able to be firm and completely relaxed when I have had to break up a dog fight between two dogs who are bent on killing each other. They do not care who is the boss. I will use whatever means I can to get them apart and no matter how well trained they are they are not going to listen to you at this time. If I have to beat them senseless I will. I had two females that were the nicest MH hunting partners you ever seen and there is no doubt that they respected me and looked at me as the leader. But when they were coming into season they could not be left alone and when they fought all the calmness in the world would not stop them. I was astonished the first time they fought because they paid no attention to me. I had to use the biggest stick I could find to beat them apart that fight cost $490 to get one of them sewed up and the next day she would have fought again if she could have got at the other bitch...…...Cj
Re: Dogs fighting
I understand what you are saying. There are fights and then there are FIGHTS. 
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett
Re: Dogs fighting
I think what FF meant was to be calm and confident when interacting with the dogs, not in the middle of breaking up a fight. Then of course you do what you must, the way you must, to break it up. But when interacting with them, say for instance removing a guarded object, or insisting one wait while you pass through a door first, getting upset and yelling/screeching/smacking, doesn't work to elevate your authority. It's like as a kid, Dad could control behavior with "the look" but there was something eye-rolling odd about him going ballistic over simple discipline.
Re: Dogs fighting
yep, I have 2 intact EP's the will hunt together all day but will kill each other if left unattended not hunting.
They are good around me but the problem usually happens when my wife is watching them.
Last time they locked up all three of us ended up at the vet getting stapled up and antibiotic shots..
I have an awesome vet!
They are good around me but the problem usually happens when my wife is watching them.
Last time they locked up all three of us ended up at the vet getting stapled up and antibiotic shots..
I have an awesome vet!
Re: Dogs fighting
Feed them separately in crates, leave them in there until they finish eating when you let them out pick up the bowls which can be triggers
Hunt them individually rotate them
Take away toys, toys are triggers for fights and possible bowel obstructions dogs don’t need toys
Crate them always if you have to leave them home alone together
If one growls or postures scold them harshly, if they ignore your scolding knock the crap out of them so they know you mean it ( not fun but you have to make them believers, it’s a zero tolerance issue so you have to be rough).
Use some judgement you want to scare the heck out of them not actually harm them. I don’t like hitting or kicking a dog but that’s a lot less injury than a real dogfight can end up creating, it’s mostly psychological for the dog. If you come on strong enough the first time or two from that point on a word from you will be enough, but they need to fear your rath
I’ve had between 6 and 16 dogs in my home for 40 years and these rules were learned the hard way
Hunt them individually rotate them
Take away toys, toys are triggers for fights and possible bowel obstructions dogs don’t need toys
Crate them always if you have to leave them home alone together
If one growls or postures scold them harshly, if they ignore your scolding knock the crap out of them so they know you mean it ( not fun but you have to make them believers, it’s a zero tolerance issue so you have to be rough).
Use some judgement you want to scare the heck out of them not actually harm them. I don’t like hitting or kicking a dog but that’s a lot less injury than a real dogfight can end up creating, it’s mostly psychological for the dog. If you come on strong enough the first time or two from that point on a word from you will be enough, but they need to fear your rath
I’ve had between 6 and 16 dogs in my home for 40 years and these rules were learned the hard way