Use a Muzzle During Dog Intro

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GnM
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Use a Muzzle During Dog Intro

Post by GnM » Fri Nov 15, 2019 4:10 pm

Ok - it’s been a long time since I have posted this many questions in a week. I know some of you have responded to my training an older dog post, and the reply’s were very useful. So my scenario is the in regards to the same dog. To make a long story short he is aggressive towards my other dog who happens to be a female Rottweiler. She is as sweet as can be and actually thinks she is a bird dog. Before I had to put my male GSP down, they were buds, and would chase song birds together all day. This new dog is aggressive towards her and I don’t want a fight on my hands. I know he needs to get used to everything but it sure seems to take a while. Do you think I could muzzle him and then introduce them. I am sure he would still act aggressive but he wouldn’t be able to fight. What are y’all thoughts? I appreciate all of your responses, this seems to be a great board..

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NEhomer
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Re: Use a Muzzle During Dog Intro

Post by NEhomer » Fri Nov 15, 2019 5:52 pm

Looks like you're past intro.

...too many questions unanswered to know for sure but the short answer is the aggressive one goes.

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Re: Use a Muzzle During Dog Intro

Post by birddogger2 » Fri Nov 15, 2019 6:50 pm

GnM -

I assume you want to keep both dogs in the house. If so, YOU need to be the undisputed, unquestioned pack leader.

You need to knock the snot out of the aggressive dog and keep knocking the snot out of the dog, every single time the dog starts something, until it understands that aggressive behavior is not tolerated . Put the dog on its back, shake and slap the crap out of it if it even utters a growl. If it has long ears, grab it by the ears and hike it off the ground by them. Give them a good stretching. Yes it hurts like he!! but will very rarely cause injury. Pick it up by the neck and choke it until it just about passes out. Do whatever you have to do so the dog understands it is not permitted to be aggressive because it is on the very bottom of the pecking order. Make it curl up into a ball and submit. If you allow aggressive behavior in your house, you are playing with nitroglycerine and it will wind up with someone getting badly hurt. And then one or more of the dogs will have to die.
The aggressive dog has to be hammered until it accepts its place at the very bottom of the pecking order. You are the alpha dog. Period. Otherwise, you may well turn your sweet Rottweiler into a killer. You really don't need that.

Sorry to be harsh, but that is the reality. You simply cannot allow aggressive behavior, especially not in the house.

My solution would be to kennel the aggressive dog outside and separate from your other dog and if it remained aggressive despite instructions by you to the contrary, to plant some flowers over it. I have broken up more than my share of dog fights and have the scars to prove it. I won't tolerate that stuff.

Good luck to you.

RayG

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Re: Use a Muzzle During Dog Intro

Post by cjhills » Sat Nov 16, 2019 6:24 am

NEhomer wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 5:52 pm
Looks like you're past intro.

...too many questions unanswered to know for sure but the short answer is the aggressive one goes.
Right.
Make sure you have a problem and can handle the consequences before you resort to more violence.....Cj
PS.Sorry, could not resist replying to this one.

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Re: Use a Muzzle During Dog Intro

Post by birddogger2 » Sat Nov 16, 2019 8:37 am

GnM -

If you have an aggressive dog...you have to do what you have to do to eliminate, not suppress, not control...but eliminate that aggression, especially if it can occur where there are people who may get injured.

Whatever it takes to have the dog submit to you as the pack leader...is what you have to do if you want the dogs to co-exist. This level of discipline is not something that a lot of folks are prepared to engage in. That is why I described some of the more brutal disciplinary techniques that trainers of such dogs may need. Handling aggressive adult dogs is not something most folks will want to deal with. Aggressive puppies can be molded fairly easily, but adult dogs can be a whole different scenario.

The easiest solution(IMO) is to physically separate the dogs, unless they are under your direct supervision and control.

It may seem harsh, and indeed sometimes it IS harsh, but the alternative can be much more final.

Again...good luck.

RayG

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Re: Use a Muzzle During Dog Intro

Post by DonF » Sat Nov 16, 2019 9:58 am

Depending on the aggression, I would not tolerate it, get rid of the aggressive one. Aggression doesn't generally get better over time, it get's worse and from the other dog it could be a family member. Had a Britt in that was that way years ago and told the owner he needed to get rid of it. He liked the dog so kept it and a few month's after it went home it took his wife. To many good dog's around to fool with a problem like that!

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Re: Use a Muzzle During Dog Intro

Post by Sharon » Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:14 pm

You've been given good advice by all.

Muzzling can be useful in certain situations, but not the situation you are describing.
My Jack Russell hates other people in his home, for no reason that I know. :roll:
I muzzle him when we have visitors.
He also likes to abuse the old setter. I crate him when I can't be right there to watch.

However, I have had 2 dogs in the past 30 years that despite my best efforts,were uncontrollably aggressive... rescues.
After 2 years of effort on my part , in both cases, I had them put down.

Sometimes that is the kindest thing you can do for the dog and yourself.
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

GnM
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Re: Use a Muzzle During Dog Intro

Post by GnM » Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:31 pm

I appreciate everyone’s advice and I truly respect it. I was thinking I was getting a good dog from a reliable breeder and maybe he was at some time, but he acts like an abused dog. The last week has been spent on bonding. He doesn’t seem to like treats that much until I finally decided to try cooked chicken liver, which he likes. We have spent a lot of time on a check cord and teaching him come with one whistle blast, which seems to be working a little. He still cowers down when I go get him out of his kennel. Once I put him on a check cord he seems to relax a little. He also does well on a leash on walks and will generally walk by my side. I have also had him staked out in my yard on one of those stakes you can attach a cable to and they can run around freely without tangling. After each training session I will put him on the cable. When I come back a little while later he is apprehensive and doesn’t come right up to me. I am a little stumped... it seems to me like a trust issue.

GnM

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Re: Use a Muzzle During Dog Intro

Post by cjhills » Sun Nov 17, 2019 11:19 pm

GnM:
This is what I was getting at. There are very few truly aggressive dogs, especially in the bird dog breeds. It sounds like this dog is a bit timid and maybe was abused. Beating him his about the worst thing you can do. It will very likely make him worse and for sure not make him better. How long have you had this dog?
I think I would keep on doing what you are doing. If you have some place and enough control and to let them run free put the muzzle on the dog and let them get acquainted. They might turn out to be friends.
I also am a strong advocate for using a choke chain for dogs with issues. I am in the minority on the Forum as far as using the choke chain goes. Some say you can injure the dog but I have never seen or heard of that if you use it properly. Don't tie the dog with a choke chain or leave it on him unattended. Get one that is short enough so will not pull over his head, probably 18 or 20 inches and a fairly heavy chain, put it on so the chain comes up through the ring on the side nearest your leg at heel. Generally the right side of the dog. Snap the checkcord on the loose end of the chain and start walking, don't talk , look at the dog or give any commands. Control the dog with short tugs not steady pressure and keep the cord loose. Walk for about 10 and stop for 5 minutes. Look off into space not at the dog. Let the dog sniff around when stopped. Do this for 45 minutes or an hour. If the dog lags, short tugs til he catches up. If he forges ahead do and about turn with a hard tug and walk the other way. Soon he will watch you and you will never feel him on the check cord and his attitude will change dramatically. After a few days you need to have distractions, like other dogs, animals or people. Maybe let the other dog run loose. There is a lot more but this will get you on track. Oh, I did not seethe breed of this dog. Give him a chance to get to know you and act like the top dog and things should be fine. If it turns out he is truly aggressive, You might have to rethink the situation..Cj

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Re: Use a Muzzle During Dog Intro

Post by shags » Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:49 am

OP,
If you could describe some of what you see as aggressive behavior, it would help get responses particular to the situation. For example you might handle it differently if the dog was on Search and Destroy Missions to the Rottie as opposed to growling and stiffening up when she sniffs his butt.

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Re: Use a Muzzle During Dog Intro

Post by GnM » Mon Nov 18, 2019 6:28 am

Growls and barks when she comes close to him. A couple days ago she was walking by when he was on the tie out cable. He ran towards he and nipped her back leg. I was able to stop it before it escalated. She pretty much ignores him now and doesn’t try to become friends.

Sorry if I wasn’t descriptive enough.

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Re: Use a Muzzle During Dog Intro

Post by GnM » Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:25 am

So out of curiosity is it common to see this type of behavior out of dogs who have lived all of their lives in a kennel? I know they are around other dogs but if the only socialization they get is with wire between the two, then to me they really cannot socialize. The most dogs I have had at one time have been three, and they were not what I consider kennel dogs. They rarely were in the kennel and mostly had free range of my five acre property, once i got it fenced. Although this dog does not run around freely right now, I would bet this is the most he has spent outside of a kennel.

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Re: Use a Muzzle During Dog Intro

Post by birddogger2 » Mon Nov 18, 2019 8:28 am

GnM wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:25 am
So out of curiosity is it common to see this type of behavior out of dogs who have lived all of their lives in a kennel? I know they are around other dogs but if the only socialization they get is with wire between the two, then to me they really cannot socialize. The most dogs I have had at one time have been three, and they were not what I consider kennel dogs. They rarely were in the kennel and mostly had free range of my five acre property, once i got it fenced. Although this dog does not run around freely right now, I would bet this is the most he has spent outside of a kennel.
No - I don't believe this is a common occurrence. I would say pretty much the opposite from my observations of bird dogs. It has been my observation that an adult, kenneled bird dog will realize that it just hit the lottery when it is brought into a home and will do everything it can to ensure it does not mess up and get relegated to the kennel again. I have had personal experience with two such dogs and both were brought in the house after years in a kennel with ZERO housebreaking training and were outstanding house dogs. I am given to understand that this is normal.

Can't comment on other types of dogs.

I will mention that I believe dogs on chains or tieouts can seem to be more aggressive. I read somewhere that some breeds of dogs or was it wolf hybrids(?? can't remember??) get flat nasty when left on chains and tieouts on a permanent basis. It apparently messes with their heads, so it is something I would be aware of.

RayG

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Re: Use a Muzzle During Dog Intro

Post by shags » Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:54 am

I agree with Ray, in my experience kennel dogs become great housedogs. Of course there is always the one someone knows who was just mean.

Dogs that are tethered are often aggressive to loose dogs. I think sometimes that's because they feel relatively defenseless and go with get you before you get me; also, they can be really defensive of the little space they have.

It sounds to me like you need to get on that dog's arse and get on it PDQ. Straighten him out before things escalate. If he's got an inborn or learned aggressive streak, you might not ever be able to trust him around the Rottie. Sometimes dogs just hate another dog for reasons we can't fathom.

A muzzle might avoid injury to the rottie, but it won't correct the problem dog. He needs to learn that YOU are the boss dog, not him...that is YOUR b!tch, not his amd he better leave her alone. CJ gave some good ideas to begin your leadership training program.

A friend of mine has been involved in obedience training on several levels for many many years. She asserts that she sees more aggressive dogs now than ever before, even to the point that the long sits and downs at obedience trials are done on lead now, so handlers can more easily grab dogs and break up altercations. She attributes the aggression to modern training techniques that avoid aversion training for serious problems like aggression, in favor of techniques that use avoiding the situations to begin with. The dogs never learn that aggression is bad, because they aren't corrected for it. They just get a cookie for not biting.

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