Whats with the hooping and hollaring in field trials??

Post Reply
User avatar
bamanicksbd
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 59
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:06 pm
Location: Alabama

Whats with the hooping and hollaring in field trials??

Post by bamanicksbd » Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:24 am

I enjoy the peace and quiet of being out with a bird dog. As I have finally matured a little I have learned that from me trainer wise less is often more. I try more and more to bite my tongue and as one of the wisest old trainers once told me “hush son, let the dog do what you brought him to do.”

Then I go to a field trial and from the release of my first brace the other handler is hooping and hollaring and blasting on his whistle. Not necessarily as I could tell directly handling or attempting to direct his dog but just making a racket.

I didn’t grow up field trialing so I must have missed out on some time honored tradition like the cowbells in Starkville or something but what is the point of the whooping and hollaring at field trials???


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

cjhills
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2199
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:37 am
Location: aitkin,mn

Re: Whats with the hooping and hollaring in field trials??

Post by cjhills » Tue Dec 10, 2019 11:39 am

I really look forward to seeing the responses to this question......Cj

birddogger2
Rank: Champion
Posts: 396
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:15 am
Location: Lower slower Delaware

Re: Whats with the hooping and hollaring in field trials??

Post by birddogger2 » Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:53 pm

bamanicksbd -

It kinda depends on what kind of trial.

I suspect you witnessed a local, amateur, American Field trial., probably horseback. They do tend to get a bit "boisterous".

I think a fair number of handlers carry on because they think they are supposed to. Some few, I am sure, carry on in the hope that their "performance " will affect the bracing dog negatively.

There is a very definite difference between "singing" to your dog, to maintain contact and provide directional guidance to the dog, and the loud , harsh hacking used to push or pull the dog.

I have seen only a very few professional handlers "hack" their dogs around, and those dogs and handlers usually don't do the lion's share of winning and certainly not with dogs that need that kind of influencing.

In fact, in AKC Gundog stakes, the rules clearly state that a dog around that is be hacked around is to be marked down as less than cooperative. I understand that if you walk most coverdog stakes, the most noise you will hear is the dogs' bells. I have run in and witnessed a fair number of AKC Gundog horseback braces, where, aside from and occasional "Oooooooo" from one or the other handler the only words spoken were ""Let 'em go" and "Pick 'em up".

If my dog is experiencing a bout of "selective deafness" and not going where it knows I want him/her to go, I will
get on the dog to get its attention, but if that doesn't work, the dog is done and on the rope.

They gotta go with you because they want to...or it does not work well.

RayG

User avatar
Sharon
GDF Junkie
Posts: 8386
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 4:46 pm
Location: Ontario,Canada

Re: Whats with the hooping and hollaring in field trials??

Post by Sharon » Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:12 pm

bamanicksbd wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:24 am
I enjoy the peace and quiet of being out with a bird dog. As I have finally matured a little I have learned that from me trainer wise less is often more. I try more and more to bite my tongue and as one of the wisest old trainers once told me “hush son, let the dog do what you brought him to do.”

Then I go to a field trial and from the release of my first brace the other handler is hooping and hollaring and blasting on his whistle. Not necessarily as I could tell directly handling or attempting to direct his dog but just making a racket.

I didn’t grow up field trialing so I must have missed out on some time honored tradition like the cowbells in Starkville or something but what is the point of the whooping and hollaring at field trials???


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
LOL Shook me up the first trial too. I was told they want their big running dog to know where they are. It is called, " singing to your dog."
As Ray said though,
"I have seen only a very few professional handlers "hack" their dogs around, and those dogs and handlers usually don't do the lion's share of winning and certainly not with dogs that need that kind of influencing." quote
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote

shags
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2514
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:57 pm

Re: Whats with the hooping and hollaring in field trials??

Post by shags » Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:21 pm

What Ray said.

The noisy handlers are usually newbies who think they're supposed spend their half hour hollering and blasting their whistles, or kinda dumb clueless folks who never learned to STHU. Rarely you might encounter an unsportsmanlike jerk who thinks his yelling and tweeting will throw your dog off his game.

Keep watching and you'll probably notice that the noisy handlers' dogs don't pay much attention to them, while the dogs of quiet handlers are very responsive when and if the handler directs them.

That being said, once in a while a big running dog might zig when he should have zagged, and an otherwise quiet handler will have to holler a bit to get him to the front. He'll quiet down when that's accomplished.

I run horseback trials, and most braces the only noise we hear is the jingling of horse tack, hoofbeats, and a little bit of chatter back there in the gallery; there might be a little singing when we make a turn or hit some hilly terrain, just to keep the dogs on course.

polmaise
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2525
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Whats with the hooping and hollaring in field trials??

Post by polmaise » Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:22 pm

Does the game that is being hunted over there have ears ?

birddogger2
Rank: Champion
Posts: 396
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:15 am
Location: Lower slower Delaware

Re: Whats with the hooping and hollaring in field trials??

Post by birddogger2 » Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:49 pm

polmaise wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:22 pm
Does the game that is being hunted over there have ears ?
Actually, in some cases the answer is"not really".

Many trials, especially in populated areas, these days are conducted on game farm raised birds which are typically thrown into cover, more or less along the "line of march" of the trial. These birds are salted in prior to the first brace being released and after the brace has passed though, a replenishment "salting" is done so that the next brace has a similar, and thus reasonably fair, opportunity to encounter birds.

These birds, typically quail, are often quite content to sit where they are thrown, despite all the ruckus. Even wild quail have been known to sit very tight on occasion, espeically if they have not been hunted hard or subject to serious predation.

In venues where there are wild or nearly wild birds, it is well documented that just the vibrations emanating from the hooves of the horses in the gallery will cause many birds to "beat feet" and get out of the immediate area. Most hunters of wild birds are keenly aware that the simple sound of a vehicle door slamming is enough to "sound the alarm" to anything within earshot.

Sooooo, many trials on wild or nearly wild birds are held on venues where there is not so much hunting pressure is relatively low, AND, as I mentioned above regarding cover dog trials, the amount of "noise" generated by the participants is usually quite a bit less.

Meller
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1059
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2008 10:28 am
Location: Missouri

Re: Whats with the hooping and hollaring in field trials??

Post by Meller » Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:36 pm

Hopefully it"s the winner, making all that noise! :mrgreen:

polmaise
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2525
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Whats with the hooping and hollaring in field trials??

Post by polmaise » Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:08 pm

birddogger2 wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:49 pm
polmaise wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:22 pm
Does the game that is being hunted over there have ears ?
Actually, in some cases the answer is"not really".

Many trials, especially in populated areas, these days are conducted on game farm raised birds which are typically thrown into cover, more or less along the "line of march" of the trial. These birds are salted in prior to the first brace being released and after the brace has passed though, a replenishment "salting" is done so that the next brace has a similar, and thus reasonably fair, opportunity to encounter birds.

These birds, typically quail, are often quite content to sit where they are thrown, despite all the ruckus. Even wild quail have been known to sit very tight on occasion, espeically if they have not been hunted hard or subject to serious predation.

In venues where there are wild or nearly wild birds, it is well documented that just the vibrations emanating from the hooves of the horses in the gallery will cause many birds to "beat feet" and get out of the immediate area. Most hunters of wild birds are keenly aware that the simple sound of a vehicle door slamming is enough to "sound the alarm" to anything within earshot.

Sooooo, many trials on wild or nearly wild birds are held on venues where there is not so much hunting pressure is relatively low, AND, as I mentioned above regarding cover dog trials, the amount of "noise" generated by the participants is usually quite a bit less.
Interesting ! Thanks for the insight .Makes you wonder how them dogs can decipher hoooman scent from all that released stuff , and the truly wild game ..of course ...? much like the other man with all them caged birds /kicked up and bird launchers ,that the bird dog knows ?...How do they find the real ones ? ... (just kidding) lol

birddogger2
Rank: Champion
Posts: 396
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:15 am
Location: Lower slower Delaware

Re: Whats with the hooping and hollaring in field trials??

Post by birddogger2 » Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:49 pm

Robert -

Not kidding here. Yes it is a game and yes it can be pretty phony sometimes, but a bird dog is a bird dog and the best of them will, like the proverbial cream...rise to the top.

I have to say that a dog that is raised and trained on throw down birds will have an epiphany when confronted with wild birds. Many make the transition, some not so much. But it takes experience.

I vividly remember one instance. I had a really nice pointer who had never smelled a wild bird in his four year old life. I took him and an older dog to upstate NY to hunt grouse, something he had never done.

The first day, all we had were busted birds, far out front. probably 10 -15 contacts, and all we had to show for it was some spots with feathers in them...where the birds had been. The younger dog was, unquestionably, moving in too close and the birds were bailing out.

Late in the day, the older dog pointed a woodcock, from a good respectful distance and the younger dog backed. My son took down the woodcock. That was it for the day's bag.

The very next day, the younger dog was hunting hard, fast and wide, just as he had the first day. Then we heard his beeper go off deep in the thick stuff. When we fought our way into the area, he was locked up and the older dog was backing. We went to either side and moved forward. The grouse blew out from well in front and we both missed. Over the course of the rest of the day there were a half dozen solid points with a grouse boiling out of cover on each one. The dog figured out that he could not crowd these birds like those stupid throw down birds. The fact that it only took him one day is a tribute to his breeding, not his trainer.


All I did was give him an opportunity to figure it out.

Good dogs find a way to get it done. That is why they are good dogs.

RayG

Trekmoor
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1889
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:09 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Whats with the hooping and hollaring in field trials??

Post by Trekmoor » Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:56 am

I asked the same question on here about 10 years ago after seeing a video of a field trial in the U.S. . I now understand ( I think ?) why this is done but I don't like the idea at all.

I think I spent too long competing in British pointing dog trials in which a handler who yodelled at his dog would at once be eliminated.

Bill T.

shags
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2514
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:57 pm

Re: Whats with the hooping and hollaring in field trials??

Post by shags » Wed Dec 11, 2019 5:44 am

Bill and Robert,
Go back and look at those videos and notice the difference between our trials and yours. Our dogs are expected to work in a completely different manner, based on what I've seen in videos from your side of the world. While your dogs quarter, our dogs run lines; your dogs seem to be always in view, while ours can be out of sight due to terrain. At my state grounds, a dog could be 50 feet away and you'd have no idea where he is because the grounds have steep hills - if you ride the ridge you can't see down in the gully, if you ride the bottoms you certainly can't see the ridge, and if you're in the middle you can't see either way. With idea if your dog is forward, behind you, or lateral, you have to communicate with him.

Likewise in the east, grounds can be tight. Follow a line and go around a corner and figure out where your dog is in thick multiflora rose hedges or edge lines that look like jungles.

In our west distances are vast and dogs need to cover that territory. When the dog is running forward so far distant that all you see is a speck of white (or liver, red, black, or whatever) there needs to be a way to 'talk' to him. No wireless earbuds allowed!

So singing and some other vocalizations are necessary at times. Handlers who overdo it aren't usually as successful as quieter ones given that their dogs' performances are similar.

youtube has plenty of horseback trial videos so you can get a visual and maybe even audio of the above.

One of my favorite memories is from a championship trial run on now defunct grounds near me. It was early morning in autumn. Ribbons of mist hovered close to the grounds and the air was very still. A group of 15 or 20 of us rode behind the handlers and judges and everyone was for some reason, very quiet. Maybe it was the early hour, maybe it was the way that mist lingered with the sun slowly dissolving it, and the way the light bounced off the white dogs as they floated down the tree lines. At any rate, the only sounds were the rustling of the grass beneath hooves, and a little bit of jingling from the horses' bridles. And those handlers singing. Oh, that singing. I wish I could type how it sounded. One handler sounded kind of like Uuuuuuuuuuup (with pitch rising) followed by Oooooooooo ( with pitch falling). The other guy did an occasional "Yooooooh!" in about an A#. It was beautiful and haunting.

I had always wanted for bagpipes to be played at my wake, but on that morning I wished that someone could somehow tape those voices so those handlers' songs could sing me to heaven instead.

User avatar
Featherfinder
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 823
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 3:15 pm

Re: Whats with the hooping and hollaring in field trials??

Post by Featherfinder » Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:28 am

In my experience, Ray/Shags are correct in their offerings on a number of levels.
As Ray said, his young pointer soon figured out he needed to adjust his strategy in order to be successful on grouse. Those are the signs of a truly wonderful bird dog. Too many dogs never reach that status but it isn't because of the dog's inabilities.
Bammer, remember, you get to pick where/when you run/trial your dog. Pick wisely, or, do what I did and train/desensitize your dog to a noisy bracemate/handler. :wink:
Last edited by Featherfinder on Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Urban_Redneck
Rank: Master Hunter
Posts: 215
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2016 7:56 pm
Location: NE PA

Re: Whats with the hooping and hollaring in field trials??

Post by Urban_Redneck » Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:43 am

If you like quiet, go to a NAVHDA hunt test. The best dogs work on a single command, multiple commands, whistles and hand signals earn deductions.

User avatar
crackerd
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1057
Joined: Wed May 07, 2008 6:57 am

Re: Whats with the hooping and hollaring in field trials??

Post by crackerd » Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:59 am

bamanicksbd, you've obviously mistaken a pointing dog field trial for an impromptu sing-along by an "Alabama" (or Miss Minnie Pearl) cover group or South'n Baptist choir! - them FT handlers sho' 'nuff got some mighty fine timbre to their sangin'...

Speaking of "cover groups," my hope is we can get ol' Bill (Trekmoor) over heah to sally forth with some "peaceful" Harry Lauder tunes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXW27qTUqic in coverdog trials - now that right there is guaranteed to put up some birds!

MG

User avatar
Featherfinder
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 823
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 3:15 pm

Re: Whats with the hooping and hollaring in field trials??

Post by Featherfinder » Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:57 am

Crackered, did you say Harry Lauder or Cindy Lauper?

polmaise
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2525
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Whats with the hooping and hollaring in field trials??

Post by polmaise » Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:05 pm

birddogger2 wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:49 pm
Robert -

Not kidding here. Yes it is a game and yes it can be pretty phony sometimes, but a bird dog is a bird dog and the best of them will, like the proverbial cream...rise to the top.
Can't disagree with that .

I have to say that a dog that is raised and trained on throw down birds will have an epiphany when confronted with wild birds. Many make the transition, some not so much. But it takes experience.
Can't disagree with that either.


All I did was give him an opportunity to figure it out.
Can't disagree with that one either.

Good dogs find a way to get it done. That is why they are good dogs.

Makes you wonder if all those techniques widely used like 'whoa' and 'Bird on a string' and 'wonder leads' and 'Training DVD'S' and 'Singing' and e-collar ,and well ...everything else on the 'Table' ? :) .pardon the pun.
RayG
Maybe some folk overthink stuff , and should walk before they run ,or better still ,put some miles in ..on the Hoof . Many thanks for the insight . Have a great festive season Ray.
Regards
Robert

birddogger2
Rank: Champion
Posts: 396
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:15 am
Location: Lower slower Delaware

Re: Whats with the hooping and hollaring in field trials??

Post by birddogger2 » Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:26 pm

Bill and Robert -

I want to relate something that might shed some light on the subject. I tproves that on occasion, things actually work out like they are supposed to and according to plan. One of the principal reasons to sing to a dog is so that the dog knows where the handler is and does not have to come back to check in. They are trained to key off the handler's vocalizations to stay out in front of the unseen handler.

The converse of this, is...or is SUPPOSED to be, if the handler shuts up, the dog should come back in to re-establish contact. Now, for the rest of the story:

A few years back, I entered a trial up in Connecticut. The state personnel who cut the 20 ft. wide courses in the summer long growth of cover immediately prior to the running made an error. The breakaway was at the top of a rise and the course was cut to go down the hill, into a swale area and then more or less straight away out into the main area
At the bottom of the hill the state folks cut not one, but two closely spaced strips absolutely perpendicular to the breakaway path. The dogs wold be hitting those cross paths at pretty much top speed and if they took either of the cross paths...they would be off course and GONE in very short order.

My dog was in about the fourth or fifth brace and several dogs from the preceding braces had taken one of the cross paths. Some were gone out of judgement, and some were eventually rounded up and gotten back on course, but the damage was already done.

I knew in my heart that my dog would be one of those who took the "detour". She was a little dog with screaming speed and a bit of a black heart.
What to do??

I resolved to keep absolutely quiet after the dogs were released and just ride down to the bottom of the hill. As I approached the cross cut paths, I was pleasantly surprised to see my dog coming back(at a fairly high rate of speed) from one of those cross paths, obviously a bit uneasy and obviously looking for me. I remember thinking to myself: "I'll be damned... that actually worked!!" I collected her, directed her forward and continued on. THEN I started singing to the dog. We went on to have a nice run.

For once, things worked the way they were supposed to. What is the saying?? "Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while." :lol:

RayG

User avatar
crackerd
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1057
Joined: Wed May 07, 2008 6:57 am

Re: Whats with the hooping and hollaring in field trials??

Post by crackerd » Thu Dec 12, 2019 9:58 am

Featherfinder wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:57 am
Crackered, did you say Harry Lauder or Cindy Lauper?
Either one, but ol' Bill could do solo sangin' Harry Lauder, while channeling Cindy Lauper would mean he's missing backup vocals from the late Capt. Lou Albano. Hmm, Polmaise might be just the substitute side-scissorskick! (No, Robt., no dirks out for me, please - just joshing, just joshing...)

MG

User avatar
bamanicksbd
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 59
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:06 pm
Location: Alabama

Re: Whats with the hooping and hollaring in field trials??

Post by bamanicksbd » Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:35 am

Thanks to everyone for your responses and input. I think Ray G explained it so that it makes sense to me. If the dog can hear you he doesnt have to look for you and he gets far enough away that he cant hear you he kinda comes back in some until he can.

The first issue I ran into was that what the bracemates handler was singing sounded a lot like whoa. A long drawn out whoooooaa. So my dog thinks he hears whoa and he stops. Then im telling him to look on. Were learning as we go.

I did try singing to Nick a couple times thinking well if he can hear me yada yada. Somewhere between whisky river take my mind and blue eyes cryin in the rain he just ran off. I think he was trying to stay far enough away that he couldnt hear me singing.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


User avatar
bamanicksbd
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 59
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:06 pm
Location: Alabama

Re: Whats with the hooping and hollaring in field trials??

Post by bamanicksbd » Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:36 am

Nick locked up.[IMG]//uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201912 ... e82d00.jpg[/IMG]

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


shags
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2514
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:57 pm

Re: Whats with the hooping and hollaring in field trials??

Post by shags » Fri Dec 13, 2019 4:33 am

Don't worry, with experience the dog will differentiate voices and learn to ignore the other guy. In the meantime, it helps if you separate yourself and your dog from Mr. Loudmouth as much as the course allows. IME most judges understand and don't demand that you guys hold hands and walk the yellow brick road together.

User avatar
crackerd
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1057
Joined: Wed May 07, 2008 6:57 am

Re: Whats with the hooping and hollaring in field trials??

Post by crackerd » Fri Dec 13, 2019 8:44 am

Or, you know, like NASCAR drivers, they could have a pre-trial handlers' meeting and decide on a duet that would work "aesthetically" for both bamanick's dog and bracemate. I'm thinking The Ames Brothers' "Auf Wiederseh'n Sweetheart" on the breakaway, and maybe "My Cup Runneth Over" by "Mingo" Ames as the harmony duet number...

MG

birddogger2
Rank: Champion
Posts: 396
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:15 am
Location: Lower slower Delaware

Re: Whats with the hooping and hollaring in field trials??

Post by birddogger2 » Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:20 am

shags wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 4:33 am
Don't worry, with experience the dog will differentiate voices and learn to ignore the other guy. In the meantime, it helps if you separate yourself and your dog from Mr. Loudmouth as much as the course allows. IME most judges understand and don't demand that you guys hold hands and walk the yellow brick road together.
You don't really need to worry all that much about it. If someone is messing around and I think it is being done innocently, I'll ignore it because they will figure it out eventually.

If, on the other hand, I think the other handler is doing it to mess with my dog, I will bury them.

All I have to do is to wait for a tricky turn in the course and then about 10 or 20 seconds before the dogs get to the turn, I start singing to my dog and don't stop. I have a pretty healthy set of lungs. If I choose to, I can "sing" loud enough so that you couldn't hear a semi truck horn over my "vocalization". Bottom line is... their dog is gone and I'm pretty much by myself after that. I haven't needed to do that in years, thankfully.

RayG

cjhills
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2199
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:37 am
Location: aitkin,mn

Re: Whats with the hooping and hollaring in field trials??

Post by cjhills » Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:06 am

Pretty much explains why I dislike field trials...…...Cj

polmaise
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2525
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Whats with the hooping and hollaring in field trials??

Post by polmaise » Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:32 am

bamanicksbd wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:24 am
I enjoy the peace and quiet of being out with a bird dog. As I have finally matured a little I have learned that from me trainer wise less is often more. I try more and more to bite my tongue and as one of the wisest old trainers once told me “hush son, let the dog do what you brought him to do.”
Your Trainer gave you good advice ! ..I'll include a 'Cocker' as a Bird Dog ..in every sense of the word ..
As a shooter who shoots over the top of a dog ,you get more game in your bag rather than pushing it away with noise....I also agree The peace and quiet of being out is why I do it ..whether in competition or just myself.
This little one 0f 6 months old was a pleasure today ...and she has probably more years in her to enjoy it than me . :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtSvk_s ... e=youtu.be

mask
Rank: 3X Champion
Posts: 505
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Idaho

Re: Whats with the hooping and hollaring in field trials??

Post by mask » Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:47 pm

Polmaise, while the little dog in the video may not work for the type of hunting I do watching her work with such joy was really uplifting. Thanks for posting except for the fact now I probably will want one :D

User avatar
Featherfinder
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 823
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 3:15 pm

Re: Whats with the hooping and hollaring in field trials??

Post by Featherfinder » Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:03 am

Crackered, that was delightful!! Super little dog - a pleasure to watch!
Thank you for sharing.

User avatar
crackerd
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1057
Joined: Wed May 07, 2008 6:57 am

Re: Whats with the hooping and hollaring in field trials??

Post by crackerd » Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:12 am

Thanks, FF - but that was Polmaise's handi-gundog work. Maybe he'll also post up an account and photos of the American cocker he got to working toward viable gundog status for a client without any sangin' just lullabies of encouragement...

MG

User avatar
DonF
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3862
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2011 6:09 pm
Location: Antelope, Ore

Re: Whats with the hooping and hollaring in field trials??

Post by DonF » Sun Dec 15, 2019 11:43 am

A huge problem, I think, with horse back field trialing is they are looking for trial dog's. Often times great dog work is shot down as it's considered bad trial work. A dog not gone from sight for most the stake will likely not place. Problem being it didn't run big enough. The dog that run's less but still fairly big, AA stake, will not place. Then you get to the gray area dogs. Nothing more than big running gun dog's, can't place in gun dog or in All Age! Field trialing is about one thing and one thing only, horse back field trial dog's, bird dog's be damned!

There's a long time trialer and judge in the N.W. that told me years ago, my Lefty was no good as an all age dog, my wife ran him. Because you saw him to much and when he hit cover he slowed and hunted it, rather than blowing through and out the other side. My ex ran him in about four AA stakes and placed in every one!

shags
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2514
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:57 pm

Re: Whats with the hooping and hollaring in field trials??

Post by shags » Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:11 pm

DonF wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 11:43 am
A huge problem, I think, with horse back field trialing is they are looking for trial dog's.
Of course. What else would they be looking for?

Often times great dog work is shot down as it's considered bad trial work.
Well yeah, but it's not a personal gun dog contest. If it were all about huntingsituations, it wouldn't be a horseback trial

A dog not gone from sight for most the stake will likely not place.
Wrong, at least for AKC trials. Dog gone for more than 6 minutes out of 30 can't place

Problem being it didn't run big enough. The dog that run's less but still fairly big, AA stake, will not place.
All age is all age, not shooting dog and not 'big' gun dog

Then you get to the gray area dogs. Nothing more than big running gun dog's, can't place in gun dog or in All Age!
Pick your judges. Lots like bigger gundogs. Dog won't run like an AA, then stay in gun dog or shooting dog stakes


Field trialing is about one thing and one thing only, horse back field trial dog's,
As it should be. There are lots of games out there, find one to suit the dog

bird dog's be damned!
Seems like lots of bird dogs have plenty of trial dog blood behind them . Not all of them, but plenty

There's a long time trialer and judge in the N.W. that told me years ago, my Lefty was no good as an all age dog, my wife ran him. Because you saw him to much and when he hit cover he slowed and hunted it, rather than blowing through and out the other side. My ex ran him in about four AA stakes and placed in every one!
Goes to show ya, not every judge's opinion is written on Stone Tablets :D

birddogger2
Rank: Champion
Posts: 396
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:15 am
Location: Lower slower Delaware

Re: Whats with the hooping and hollaring in field trials??

Post by birddogger2 » Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:59 pm

Guys -

On thing that HAS to be remembered is that a field trial is both a formal contest and a show...with written rules that must be adhered to and both written and unwritten standards of performance that are pursued by the participants and judged by independent arbiters. The handler has a fixed amount of time to show off the very best that his dog can do...to the judges.

There are no independent judges watching a hunt. There is no time limit. The only rules for a hunt center on not shooting the dog, or each other and not killing game you are not supposed to. Everything else is pretty fluid. In a field trial, if the dog or handler breaks a rule, the contest is over for them. If the handler or dog messes up during a hunt, there is no such penalty. You re-group, correct the situation and continue on.

One of the principal rules AND one of the most massive differences between hunting and field trialing is the fact that, at a trial, there is a DEFINED course that the handler must follow.

You cannot follow the dog, as you often should when you are hunting. You have to follow the predetermined, prescribed course, even when the wind is in the wrong direction.

The dog HAS to go with you and stay with you. Depending on the terrain, the type of trial and the weather conditions...that, alone, can be an awful lot to ask of a dog that has bred bred to hunt without stopping until it falls over on its nose.

By its nature, the field trial is designed to be a demanding test of many of the skills and talents a bird dog must possess. It is designed to separate the truly outstanding bird dogs from the good dogs. The true purpose of field trials are to identify those individual dogs that have outstanding qualities and are worthy of breeding, so as to pass on those outstanding qualities and hopefully improve the breed.

RayG

polmaise
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2525
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Whats with the hooping and hollaring in field trials??

Post by polmaise » Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:29 pm

birddogger2 wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:59 pm

One of the principal rules AND one of the most massive differences between hunting and field trialing is the fact that, at a trial, there is a DEFINED course that the handler must follow.

You cannot follow the dog, as you often should when you are hunting. You have to follow the predetermined, prescribed course, even when the wind is in the wrong direction.

The dog HAS to go with you and stay with you. Depending on the terrain, the type of trial and the weather conditions...that, alone, can be an awful lot to ask of a dog that has bred bred to hunt without stopping until it falls over on its nose.

By its nature, the field trial is designed to be a demanding test of many of the skills and talents a bird dog must possess. It is designed to separate the truly outstanding bird dogs from the good dogs. The true purpose of field trials are to identify those individual dogs that have outstanding qualities and are worthy of breeding, so as to pass on those outstanding qualities and hopefully improve the breed.

RayG
I know nothing about Horse back trials , !!!!! Even less about the rules .
Can you explain the two bolded statements please ? ..Slightly confused . They come over as contradictory (to my level of understanding)
.............................................................................................................................................................................
I know one thing for sure ! I bet the dogs don't get a copy of the rules ,and You sure can't breed rules :)

birddogger2
Rank: Champion
Posts: 396
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:15 am
Location: Lower slower Delaware

Re: Whats with the hooping and hollaring in field trials??

Post by birddogger2 » Sun Dec 15, 2019 2:23 pm

Robert -

One of the things I look for in a dog is an unquenchable, insatiable, burning desire to find birds. A desire that will drive a dog to do whatever it takes, including to run itself into the ground in search of game. There are dogs that, If you cut their legs off at the first joint, would gladly continue to run and hunt on the bloody stumps. They are THAT driven to find birds.

THAT is what I meant by the first statement.

That video you so graciously shared with us, of that young cocker, who bore a strange resemblance to a ground hugging guided missile... looks an awful lot like a dog that would fit my qualification of having an unquenchable, burning desire to find birds.

As far as the purpose of field trials...

To me, a truly outstanding bird dog has a whole array of talents and abilities that must occur in balance with and in harmony with each other, so as to permit the dog to find birds farther, faster, more accurately, more consistently, with more style and more overall effectiveness...for their hunter/handler.

Field trials are one of the better ways, I believe, to identify those dogs with the exceptional talents and abilities, both individual talents and in effective combinations... that prospective breeders may wish to incorporate into their breeding to better the breed.

As an example...suppose you have a strain of really nice hunters, but have the desire to improve their endurance in the field. What better group of dogs to look to, for an infusion of genetically enhanced endurance characteristics, than horseback dogs who are bred and trained to run and hunt, flat out, full tilt with no letup, for an hour and more in front of a horse, and who do so successfully in competition with other dogs, bred and trained for the same abilities?

Field trials are a game of extremes. No question. The very best of the dogs will push the envelope and the dogs that win will tiptoe on the ragged edge of performance...with out falling off that edge. And they have to do it without training aids.

They might not be fun for some to hunt over, but what they can add to the genetic mix can be used to strengthen areas where it may be needed. Those reservoirs of demonstrated ability are a nice thing to have.

I don't know anyone that truly enjoys foot hunting behind an honest-to God horseback all age dog. I certainly do not. Not even when I could walk a pretty fair lick and had places to hunt such a dog. But if you can infuse that a measure of that fire breathing, fiercely independent, rifle nosed competitor, that can smell and lock up on the scent of a bird when running twenty miles an hour... into your cooperative, handy bird dog, without losing those marvelous cooperative traits...why not? I think it might just be a pretty good way to build a better bird dog.

RayG

shags
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2514
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:57 pm

Re: Whats with the hooping and hollaring in field trials??

Post by shags » Sun Dec 15, 2019 2:57 pm

Ray,
Seems to me a good number of the dogs that run the National Championship are hunted over, something I've read in interviews with various handlers. So we have have honest to God all age dogs qualifying to run in 3 hour braces as shooting dogs, and are hunted over in their spare time :D

polmaise
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2525
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Whats with the hooping and hollaring in field trials??

Post by polmaise » Sun Dec 15, 2019 4:23 pm

Thanks Ray G.
I may be misunderstanding or probably confused (which doesn't take much these days :) ) ..So, ....Bird Dog Field trials have different requirements for the dog to perform whilst in the quest to find game under the difference of rules and regulations between those handlers not on horse back ,is that correct ? (other than the obvious ! A man on a horse) I can appreciate the difference in terrain /cover and distances of open bare ground between cover ,but there would hardly be any hidden game to find in those open ground areas ? ...It's the bit where the Handler has to guide the dog where the predetermined course has been instructed ,irrespective of wind or likely game activity that confuses someone like myself where the emphasis is on breeding the future traits of the dogs natural Hunting skills rather than a display of interpreted rules to further enhance the breed ?
Regards
Robert
ps ..Thinking about a scenario with those hard running breathing dragon types that Go when cast out by the Horseback handler on a hunting run like a bat out of heck with a tail wind and it goes in the direction of the set course laid out that would be good right ?, but what if there was a clapped in wily old bird in the brush some few feet away from the man on the horse ,would the dog be penalised for missing game ? (which is the reason we use dogs ?)

shags
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2514
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:57 pm

Re: Whats with the hooping and hollaring in field trials??

Post by shags » Sun Dec 15, 2019 4:52 pm

Robert,
There are different trialing formats here, and the rules vary between them. Some are strictly foot trials, and a couple of others are horseback. The horseback ones are under the purview of either American Field or American Kennel Club. The rules of running are very similar, with most differences having to do with paperwork. AF trials have what they call guidelines, while AKC trials have more 'rules'. But the actual running of dogs is very similar.

In AKC trials there is no difference in rules between foot and horseback handlers and dogs, except that in mixed braces, the horseback handler has to kind of accommodate the guy on foot - no burying him. It's Ok for foot handled dogs to range closer.

A handler should not guide his dog to likely objective. He could, but it won't earn him much credit. The dogs are expected to go to objectives on their own. However, they have to go to objectives that are forward or perhaps somewhat lateral to the line of travel of the course. In other words, if the course goes west, so does the dog. Not good if he decides to go his own way. As he travels the course, the dog should hit likely cover, be that as it may according to terrain and location.

As far as a dog missing birds, it's not penalized unless the dog is perceived to be blinking. If a dog goes forward, then his horseback handler rides up a bird, it's a non-event. Now, it's not hard to discern that a dog is running to hear the wind through his ears as opposed to running and hunting. A run-no-hunt kind of dog isn't going to be successful very often if at all.
In AKC trials a dog must point to place, So going birdless won't get him anywhere. There are remedies in place in case all or most of the dogs go birdless because of unusual conditions.

We want to see our trial dogs use all their instincts and brains. Trials dogs should use the wind, punch cover where it ought to produce game, show excellent manners, handle kindly, exhibit bottom (stamina), and everything else that makes a class bird dog. A couple of examples of good hunting dog sense that can be penalized in trials is moving to mark and self-relocating. In trials, some judges are ok with these things to one degree or another while others don't want to see that at all.

You can view some youtube videos of trials if you search 'bird dog field trials'. Refine your search by adding American Field, AKC, NSTRA, UBHA, NBHA, AFTCA, or other formats.

birddogger2
Rank: Champion
Posts: 396
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:15 am
Location: Lower slower Delaware

Re: Whats with the hooping and hollaring in field trials??

Post by birddogger2 » Sun Dec 15, 2019 7:40 pm

Robert -

To answer your question( sort of), about the dog passing up on birds, I will say this in addition to what Shags said:

The exact location of the birds on course is not known. It is common in planted bird trials to replace birds in the general area where they were originally "salted in", but later on in the trial, birds could conceivably be anywhere, since many have been flushed and quail being quail, they could call and get back together.

In wild bird trials in more open grassy type terrain, it may not look like much in the way of cover, or much of an objective, but a ditch or slough can provide cover for birds, as can a couple of scrub trees at the base of a slope. The hunting dog typically hunts this type of cover more slowly and with greater diligence than the all age dog.

I can best describe the hunting pattern of a true all age dog as going, more or less directly from objective to objective. It may slow down as it approaches an objective and hunt through it. However when done, it will pick up its head, identify another objective and head off to it. It bears mentioning that the more successful dogs have had experience in recognizing just what makes a productive "objective".

The other piece of the puzzle is actually hunting a trial dog. I do actually hunt most of mine, and on fairly tight preserves on occasion. Part of it is training, part of it is experience, but the largest part of it is the ability of the dog to recognize that we are doing something different and to adjust. Many trial dogs, when they see the gun come out, understand that there is a different set of expectations and "dial it down" to accommodate the walking hunter.
I actually think the most driven of them tend to make the adjustment the best, because, to them it is all about the opportunity to wrap their gums around a bird and they will do whatever they have to do to make that happen...including staying with the walking hunter, because they are the one with the stick that goes bang and gives them the opportunity to get a bird in their mouth.

Honestly, most of the horseback trial dogs I have hunted over will still hunt too wide and too fast for the average hunter, but the fact that they willing enough to dramatically change their way of going, speaks volumes to me about their capacity for cooperation, and their intelligence as well.

Both of those things are invaluable parts of the total package we need to have in a class bird dog. There are many pieces to the puzzle. Run, range,gait, pattern, scenting ability, endurance, mental and physical toughness, biddability, ability to take and retain training, style on its game, ...the list goes on.

RayG

User avatar
gundogguy
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 979
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:22 pm
Location: southern Michiganistan

Re: Whats with the hooping and hollaring in field trials??

Post by gundogguy » Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:36 am

polmaise wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:22 pm
Does the game that is being hunted over there have ears ?

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: Good one Robert!

User avatar
gundogguy
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 979
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:22 pm
Location: southern Michiganistan

Re: Whats with the hooping and hollaring in field trials??

Post by gundogguy » Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:43 am

polmaise wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:32 am
bamanicksbd wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:24 am
I enjoy the peace and quiet of being out with a bird dog. As I have finally matured a little I have learned that from me trainer wise less is often more. I try more and more to bite my tongue and as one of the wisest old trainers once told me “hush son, let the dog do what you brought him to do.”
Your Trainer gave you good advice ! ..I'll include a 'Cocker' as a Bird Dog ..in every sense of the word ..
As a shooter who shoots over the top of a dog ,you get more game in your bag rather than pushing it away with noise....I also agree The peace and quiet of being out is why I do it ..whether in competition or just myself.
This little one 0f 6 months old was a pleasure today ...and she has probably more years in her to enjoy it than me . :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtSvk_s ... e=youtu.be
Sweet! I would not expect anything less of ye and your dog!

Post Reply