Hello,
I have a question regarding training frequency.
Aside from conditioning with roading, summer camps on wild birds, etc., how often per week do you train your young green broke pointing dogs?
In particular, when working on steadiness (which to me includes, steady to wing and shot, stop to flush and honoring) how often do you train during the week?
How many bird contacts per sessions?
How often do you yard train vs field train? Would you, for example, go back during the week to basic yard work with whoa commands? Would you maybe add steadiness to pigeons released from a game bag, doing this still in the yard? And then would you add a certain number of days in the field working on planted or wild birds still working on steadiness? How often would you do one and how often the other?
Say, you have a green broke dog and you want to get this dog ready to campaign in AKC amateur gun dog stakes (likely walking stakes), or for MH tests, what would be your training frequency specifically on steadiness?
I am particularly interested in the opinion of amateurs competitors running AKC gun dog stakes, MH tests as well as NAVHDA UPT and UT. I am not so interested in the opinion of professional trainers since training is their job and they don’t have time constraints (other that they need to train multiple dogs), but suggestions from anybody are always welcome of course.
Additionally I wanted to share this very interesting article from a canine behaviorist. The article cites and goes over a couple of scientific papers that seem to indicate that training frequency does not necessarily correlated with better learning in dogs. I found this to be very interesting. Here it is: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/dog-trai ... er-sheehy/
I realize that the answers to my questions are heavily dependent on the individual dogs temperament, at what point they are in their training, the trainer experience, etc. If these questions generate enough interest, I will gladly share my story and where my dog is at with training, but I did not want to make this initial post too long.
Thank you in advance for your answers.
G
Training frequency question for green broke pointing dogs
-
averageguy
- Rank: 5X Champion
- Posts: 970
- Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:07 am
Re: Training frequency question for green broke pointing dogs
Yes your last paragraph is what I was thinking as I read. Much will depend on the dog.
NAVHDA and Retriever Hunt Tests with GWPs is where my hands on Hunt Test experience with my own bird dogs lies. (Did OB work with German Shepards and had airedale, beagle and coonhounds prior to GWPs) We do a lot of hunting of wild upland birds, waterfowl and some blood tracking. I have been able to bring my last two GWPs along at a pace where we ran and passed NAVHDA UT at 17 months of age. Ran some AKC and NAHRA tests with them as well.
Lots of OB training, exposure and development precedes my pups' first seasons. They will sit, stay, heel, come, kennel, fetch and whoa, point at first scent, mark and retrieve to hand from land and water, track when given the command to do so and retrieve the bird or object back reliably going into their first seasons.
We work on something several times a day in very short bursts when they are babies. 5 days a week or more walks in natural terrain where wild game lives is part of our daily living. I shoot only pointed birds but I do not steady my pups until after their first bird season and delay FF until then as well. I bring out the pups' natural point using pigeons in launchers and when they are pointing reliably at first scent I launch and shoot them, the pups run to the mark and retrieve to hand. We are ready to hunt then and do a lot of it in their first season. My current dog hunted wild birds in 6 states before he was a year old.
So that sets the stage for their training and experience relative to your green broke dog question.
Following those first seasons is when training specific to UT begins. First with FF and then steadiness training. While working on FF we train daily usually once only and stay on that subject until it is completed. Our sessions are very short and I modify standard FF programs to first teach Fetch using PR methods and then overlay force on the already trained command. I use free runs in wild game areas to provide a balanced mental break from the pressures of that training.
Then we move to Steadiness which I will generally work 3 times a week depending on how things are going and weather. I like a good wind and not too much heat so some days are skipped for that reason. I have two remote launchers so I am using two setups per training session but will also release some bagged birds while simulating flushes prior to launching the set bird. Once the dog is doing well I move to tip up cages and then birds free set on the ground. Again I use free runs in wild game areas to provide mental balance for the dog.
During Steadiness training I will mix in some days where we work on Duck Search (hot days are often utilized for water work), another day it will be some short heeling exercises and steady by the Blind, another day a short session on running and retrieve a drag. I rotate through the UT subjects vs working the same subject day after day. I give the dog at least one, possibly two days a week where we do not work on anything specific.
The dog's mental attitude tells me when to do more or less. I want to preserve my dog's lust and style for birds so I do not overwork the steadiness training. They hunt enough to easily know we are not hunting and I balance the pressure to not take away from the dog in my Steadiness training. When I hit a day of cool weather I will lay and run a blood track a few times each summer.
All I describe is done in short sessions. The Steadiness training takes longer to catch birds, drive to the training field and set them out than to work the dog. The Duck Search goes the longest because I have to set out ducks and then I work multiple sends in each session. My dogs have loved searching for ducks so that allows that training subject to go longer than the other ones will still moving the dog forward.
UT work is all done in the field. Having trained Heel with the dog was a baby, even my heeling work is in the field. Our free runs are often at local public WMAs with gravel parking lots, starting maybe 100 yards from the parking lot as we are heading back in, I will call the dog in and require it to heel the rest of the way back in and will work on some pole bending heeling around the wooden posts marking the parking lot when we arrive.
Key to my steadiness work is I have trained Whoa to a voice, hand and whistle command completely away from birds starting as young puppy. We "whoa" in many different situations, feeding, tailgate of the truck when let out of the crate but not yet released to go run/hunt, going through doors, when I open the kennel gate before allowing the dog to exit. So that foundation work for our Whoa is around the yard. Then we move to training the pup to stop on a run while in the field, but not while working or smelling birds. I want the Whoa command so thoroughly trained when I start using it around birds that it is just another situation where Whoa still means Whoa. I believe it minimizes the risk of any adverse association of discipline and birds for the dog.
I accomplish this prior to the pups first hunting season but do not use the Whoa command around birds. The pup either points its birds naturally, in which case I shoot them and the pup gets to retrieve, or it scares the bird away and gets nothing, through our first hunting seasons.
When we take up steadiness training around birds after the first hunting season it is in our training bird field. I am blessed to have several different fields to use for training and I rotate them. It keeps the dogs honest in their search for birds and hitting their points hard when they hit scent. I set my birds in natural cover and take care to not allow the dog to work over my boot tracks before hitting bird scent. These details pay off is my belief.
Hopefully this is responsive to your question.
NAVHDA and Retriever Hunt Tests with GWPs is where my hands on Hunt Test experience with my own bird dogs lies. (Did OB work with German Shepards and had airedale, beagle and coonhounds prior to GWPs) We do a lot of hunting of wild upland birds, waterfowl and some blood tracking. I have been able to bring my last two GWPs along at a pace where we ran and passed NAVHDA UT at 17 months of age. Ran some AKC and NAHRA tests with them as well.
Lots of OB training, exposure and development precedes my pups' first seasons. They will sit, stay, heel, come, kennel, fetch and whoa, point at first scent, mark and retrieve to hand from land and water, track when given the command to do so and retrieve the bird or object back reliably going into their first seasons.
We work on something several times a day in very short bursts when they are babies. 5 days a week or more walks in natural terrain where wild game lives is part of our daily living. I shoot only pointed birds but I do not steady my pups until after their first bird season and delay FF until then as well. I bring out the pups' natural point using pigeons in launchers and when they are pointing reliably at first scent I launch and shoot them, the pups run to the mark and retrieve to hand. We are ready to hunt then and do a lot of it in their first season. My current dog hunted wild birds in 6 states before he was a year old.
So that sets the stage for their training and experience relative to your green broke dog question.
Following those first seasons is when training specific to UT begins. First with FF and then steadiness training. While working on FF we train daily usually once only and stay on that subject until it is completed. Our sessions are very short and I modify standard FF programs to first teach Fetch using PR methods and then overlay force on the already trained command. I use free runs in wild game areas to provide a balanced mental break from the pressures of that training.
Then we move to Steadiness which I will generally work 3 times a week depending on how things are going and weather. I like a good wind and not too much heat so some days are skipped for that reason. I have two remote launchers so I am using two setups per training session but will also release some bagged birds while simulating flushes prior to launching the set bird. Once the dog is doing well I move to tip up cages and then birds free set on the ground. Again I use free runs in wild game areas to provide mental balance for the dog.
During Steadiness training I will mix in some days where we work on Duck Search (hot days are often utilized for water work), another day it will be some short heeling exercises and steady by the Blind, another day a short session on running and retrieve a drag. I rotate through the UT subjects vs working the same subject day after day. I give the dog at least one, possibly two days a week where we do not work on anything specific.
The dog's mental attitude tells me when to do more or less. I want to preserve my dog's lust and style for birds so I do not overwork the steadiness training. They hunt enough to easily know we are not hunting and I balance the pressure to not take away from the dog in my Steadiness training. When I hit a day of cool weather I will lay and run a blood track a few times each summer.
All I describe is done in short sessions. The Steadiness training takes longer to catch birds, drive to the training field and set them out than to work the dog. The Duck Search goes the longest because I have to set out ducks and then I work multiple sends in each session. My dogs have loved searching for ducks so that allows that training subject to go longer than the other ones will still moving the dog forward.
UT work is all done in the field. Having trained Heel with the dog was a baby, even my heeling work is in the field. Our free runs are often at local public WMAs with gravel parking lots, starting maybe 100 yards from the parking lot as we are heading back in, I will call the dog in and require it to heel the rest of the way back in and will work on some pole bending heeling around the wooden posts marking the parking lot when we arrive.
Key to my steadiness work is I have trained Whoa to a voice, hand and whistle command completely away from birds starting as young puppy. We "whoa" in many different situations, feeding, tailgate of the truck when let out of the crate but not yet released to go run/hunt, going through doors, when I open the kennel gate before allowing the dog to exit. So that foundation work for our Whoa is around the yard. Then we move to training the pup to stop on a run while in the field, but not while working or smelling birds. I want the Whoa command so thoroughly trained when I start using it around birds that it is just another situation where Whoa still means Whoa. I believe it minimizes the risk of any adverse association of discipline and birds for the dog.
I accomplish this prior to the pups first hunting season but do not use the Whoa command around birds. The pup either points its birds naturally, in which case I shoot them and the pup gets to retrieve, or it scares the bird away and gets nothing, through our first hunting seasons.
When we take up steadiness training around birds after the first hunting season it is in our training bird field. I am blessed to have several different fields to use for training and I rotate them. It keeps the dogs honest in their search for birds and hitting their points hard when they hit scent. I set my birds in natural cover and take care to not allow the dog to work over my boot tracks before hitting bird scent. These details pay off is my belief.
Hopefully this is responsive to your question.
Re: Training frequency question for green broke pointing dogs
Thank you! That is exactly what I am looking for. Hopefully others will share their experience and what worked for them and we can have some good discussion generated here.
To give some more context to my questions I can summarize my story and my situation. And I will point out also some similarities in training, although I have to admit that it sounds like you have more experience, more time and more ground availability than me.
I have already introduced myself in the intro section of the forum, but just in case here we go again.
My name is Giuseppe (although if you have a hard time pronouncing it "Joe" does work well too). I live in Iowa and hunt upland birds almost exclusively. As my name give it away I am originally from Europe, Italy to be more specific. I am 35 and I have worked a lived in the US for the last 11 years. My wife is from the US and we have 3 kids. I grew up hunting upland birds with my father in Italy using exclusively pointing dogs. I had several breeds growing up including a Bracco Italiano (actually my first dog), English setters, Pointers, GSPs and Epagneul Bretons. All of these were Italian blood lines, mostly hunting lines with some having some field trial blood in them. Both my dad and I were interested mostly in hunting so any training for these dogs was formalized only to that scope, hence my knowledge of gun dog training was limited (and it still is. It is better now, but I am still a newbie).
Italy has its own little world as far as bird dogs go, with its own style, aesthetics and training methods. Italians in the last few decades have been particularly obsessed with blood lines that are proven to be excellent on woodcock. I used to like how us Italians bred and trained bird dogs, but I found that my taste has changed over the years, and I am not in love any more with the main stream Italian way of raising and breeding bird dogs. I have grown to believe that (and this is of course just my opinion) the apex of gundog/birddog breeding and training has been achieved by the Germans, the British/Scottish/Irish and by the Americans at this time. Anyway I digress.
After moving to the US, due to new jobs, kids (one of which with special needs) and integrating in to the culture, my mind was somewhere else and I went through a “bird dog hiatus” that lasted about 8 years (looking back that was 8 years too long without a bird dog). Fortunately in the spring of 2018 one of my friends had an "unplanned" GSP litter and a puppy was available for me. I did not hesitate and went for it. Luckily for me I knew and hunted with both the sire and the dam of my dog and they are excellent hunting dogs. Fran is now almost 2 years old (will be 2 in February). She has been the best hunting dog I have ever had to date.
We spent her first season training first (in the summer) pretty heavily and then hunting her on wild Iowa pheasants with mostly just basic obedience done at that point. At that time I let her rip the country and range out (as far as Iowa small parcels of public land allow). I killed a lot of pheasants over her (also only pointed birds) and doing it this way has allowed her to further her already incredible pray drive, to the point that now I can hardly do anything wrong with my (poor) training abilities, since I have the feeling that she will always be bird obsessed! Additionally I was (and still are) very disciplined about continuing to run her regularly during the off season on wild pheasants as much as the Iowa hunting regulations allow (except from March 15 to July 15 when public areas are closed to dog training in Iowa) supplementing with some game preserve stuff when wild pheasants cannot not be chased.
Anyhow after the first hunting season curiosity made me look in to her background and pedigree. I found out that the mother has a pedigree that is heavy on AKC MH achievements. Additionally all the generations in the father’s pedigree (from the grandparents of my dog going back) have VC NAVDHA titles (each sire and each dam). I did not know all of this when I picked her up back then (I just wanted a good hunting dog, plus she was free), so I consider myself very lucky. This discovery, plus a change of interest in me, made me switch from focusing on hunting with a good dog to get a “gundog training and trial fever” (I think I am infected pretty badly, to the point that I rather train than hunt and I’ll pass shots on birds if my dog is not doing what I am asking her to do).
So after the first season and the pedigree discovery last spring we tried a couple of hunt test and field trials (Mostly derby and puppy stakes) with some decent success and we had a blast! I was even more hooked.
In the summer my family and I went on a long vacation to Italy and Germany and Fran was left with Jim West and Rhonda Haukoos from Wild West Kennels for a month. Jim and Rhonda are incredible people, dog trainers and super hardworking individuals. When I left Fran for their summer camp on the sandhills of Nebraska all I had asked them to do was to let her run on sharptails for the month and half that she was going to be there. When I came back to pick her up, not only had she been run on the sand hills chasing sharptails, but she was also whoa trained and green broke to wing and shot. Jim and Rhonda did an incredible job with my puppy!
After I picked her up I continued her training on my own (following suggestions from Jim and Rhonda). At that point I was back in Iowa from vacation earlier than my wife and kids. My wife teaches so her summers are fully off, hence she stayed in Europe with the kids longer than me to visit her parents which are stationed in Germany at this time. I, on the other hand, had to work!
But having no family duty for a while allowed me to intensify her training during this summer and we were able to go out and train on wild pheasants every day of the week for the whole month of August as well as good part of September. I continued to demand that she would whoa and be steady to wing and shot using my blank pistol. We also started training with pigeons in our back yard and at a local DNR designated dog training areas working on whoa, stop to flush and more wing and shot steadiness. Once wife and kids were back, the school year and other the kids activities started, frequency of training slowed down quite a bit (got to work to pay the bills, kids are going to be little only for so long, etc.). This fall we both hunted and trained. I have been trying to go out field training or hunting 2-3 times a week for about an hr sessions with her. I rather keep my hunting time short (no more than 1hr, that way I can be home for wife and kids) but go out more frequently than the opposite. Hopefully from a training point of view this was and still is a right choice. While in the field I always dedicate part of the time to working on recall, heel, sit and whoa (by this I mean whoa without birds, stop in the field whenever and wherever the word whoa comes out of my mouth). Additionally we yard train 3-4 times a week working on recall, heel, sit and whoa.
While in the field, whether I am hunting or training, I demand that she is steady to wing and shot, and that she stops to any flushing bird that gets up ahead of us and she can see. If we go out hunting and she points a hen pheasant I fire my shotgun in the air and she has to be steady. Right now, doing what I can with the time that I have, I feel she is about to go from green broke to fully broke, but we are still not quite there yet. Indeed if I shoot a rooster and she see it falling she still needs a strong verbal reminder to not move until I send her in for the retrieve. Additionally we have not worked on honoring yet.
I believe though that now that the Iowa pheasant season is about to close and we can start to focus on training exclusively in a more controlled situation I can start to tighten her up on steadiness. I am just not sure that going out 2-3 times a week for the field work is enough for her. What do you think? Is doing more back yard (and DNR designated dog training area) training on whoa and steadiness with, say, my pigeons and then go out a couple of times a week on wild birds or at preserve to translate the yard work to the field enough? I can definitely do the yard work more than the field work, since it is my back yard and I have the birds right there! I mean, I could do the yard work every day (except I can’t shoot my blank pistol because I live in town). The field work is a lot more time consuming and keeps me away from family and other stuff.
My goal with this dog is to run her in AKC amateur gun dog stakes (likely walking trial exclusively), and then once I have completed the force fetching process (she is a natural retriever but she is a bit hard mouthed) and all the retrieving stuff I would like to run her in the AKC MH tests. After that I would attempt than NAVHDA UPT and UT.
To give some more context to my questions I can summarize my story and my situation. And I will point out also some similarities in training, although I have to admit that it sounds like you have more experience, more time and more ground availability than me.
I have already introduced myself in the intro section of the forum, but just in case here we go again.
My name is Giuseppe (although if you have a hard time pronouncing it "Joe" does work well too). I live in Iowa and hunt upland birds almost exclusively. As my name give it away I am originally from Europe, Italy to be more specific. I am 35 and I have worked a lived in the US for the last 11 years. My wife is from the US and we have 3 kids. I grew up hunting upland birds with my father in Italy using exclusively pointing dogs. I had several breeds growing up including a Bracco Italiano (actually my first dog), English setters, Pointers, GSPs and Epagneul Bretons. All of these were Italian blood lines, mostly hunting lines with some having some field trial blood in them. Both my dad and I were interested mostly in hunting so any training for these dogs was formalized only to that scope, hence my knowledge of gun dog training was limited (and it still is. It is better now, but I am still a newbie).
Italy has its own little world as far as bird dogs go, with its own style, aesthetics and training methods. Italians in the last few decades have been particularly obsessed with blood lines that are proven to be excellent on woodcock. I used to like how us Italians bred and trained bird dogs, but I found that my taste has changed over the years, and I am not in love any more with the main stream Italian way of raising and breeding bird dogs. I have grown to believe that (and this is of course just my opinion) the apex of gundog/birddog breeding and training has been achieved by the Germans, the British/Scottish/Irish and by the Americans at this time. Anyway I digress.
After moving to the US, due to new jobs, kids (one of which with special needs) and integrating in to the culture, my mind was somewhere else and I went through a “bird dog hiatus” that lasted about 8 years (looking back that was 8 years too long without a bird dog). Fortunately in the spring of 2018 one of my friends had an "unplanned" GSP litter and a puppy was available for me. I did not hesitate and went for it. Luckily for me I knew and hunted with both the sire and the dam of my dog and they are excellent hunting dogs. Fran is now almost 2 years old (will be 2 in February). She has been the best hunting dog I have ever had to date.
We spent her first season training first (in the summer) pretty heavily and then hunting her on wild Iowa pheasants with mostly just basic obedience done at that point. At that time I let her rip the country and range out (as far as Iowa small parcels of public land allow). I killed a lot of pheasants over her (also only pointed birds) and doing it this way has allowed her to further her already incredible pray drive, to the point that now I can hardly do anything wrong with my (poor) training abilities, since I have the feeling that she will always be bird obsessed! Additionally I was (and still are) very disciplined about continuing to run her regularly during the off season on wild pheasants as much as the Iowa hunting regulations allow (except from March 15 to July 15 when public areas are closed to dog training in Iowa) supplementing with some game preserve stuff when wild pheasants cannot not be chased.
Anyhow after the first hunting season curiosity made me look in to her background and pedigree. I found out that the mother has a pedigree that is heavy on AKC MH achievements. Additionally all the generations in the father’s pedigree (from the grandparents of my dog going back) have VC NAVDHA titles (each sire and each dam). I did not know all of this when I picked her up back then (I just wanted a good hunting dog, plus she was free), so I consider myself very lucky. This discovery, plus a change of interest in me, made me switch from focusing on hunting with a good dog to get a “gundog training and trial fever” (I think I am infected pretty badly, to the point that I rather train than hunt and I’ll pass shots on birds if my dog is not doing what I am asking her to do).
So after the first season and the pedigree discovery last spring we tried a couple of hunt test and field trials (Mostly derby and puppy stakes) with some decent success and we had a blast! I was even more hooked.
In the summer my family and I went on a long vacation to Italy and Germany and Fran was left with Jim West and Rhonda Haukoos from Wild West Kennels for a month. Jim and Rhonda are incredible people, dog trainers and super hardworking individuals. When I left Fran for their summer camp on the sandhills of Nebraska all I had asked them to do was to let her run on sharptails for the month and half that she was going to be there. When I came back to pick her up, not only had she been run on the sand hills chasing sharptails, but she was also whoa trained and green broke to wing and shot. Jim and Rhonda did an incredible job with my puppy!
After I picked her up I continued her training on my own (following suggestions from Jim and Rhonda). At that point I was back in Iowa from vacation earlier than my wife and kids. My wife teaches so her summers are fully off, hence she stayed in Europe with the kids longer than me to visit her parents which are stationed in Germany at this time. I, on the other hand, had to work!
But having no family duty for a while allowed me to intensify her training during this summer and we were able to go out and train on wild pheasants every day of the week for the whole month of August as well as good part of September. I continued to demand that she would whoa and be steady to wing and shot using my blank pistol. We also started training with pigeons in our back yard and at a local DNR designated dog training areas working on whoa, stop to flush and more wing and shot steadiness. Once wife and kids were back, the school year and other the kids activities started, frequency of training slowed down quite a bit (got to work to pay the bills, kids are going to be little only for so long, etc.). This fall we both hunted and trained. I have been trying to go out field training or hunting 2-3 times a week for about an hr sessions with her. I rather keep my hunting time short (no more than 1hr, that way I can be home for wife and kids) but go out more frequently than the opposite. Hopefully from a training point of view this was and still is a right choice. While in the field I always dedicate part of the time to working on recall, heel, sit and whoa (by this I mean whoa without birds, stop in the field whenever and wherever the word whoa comes out of my mouth). Additionally we yard train 3-4 times a week working on recall, heel, sit and whoa. While in the field, whether I am hunting or training, I demand that she is steady to wing and shot, and that she stops to any flushing bird that gets up ahead of us and she can see. If we go out hunting and she points a hen pheasant I fire my shotgun in the air and she has to be steady. Right now, doing what I can with the time that I have, I feel she is about to go from green broke to fully broke, but we are still not quite there yet. Indeed if I shoot a rooster and she see it falling she still needs a strong verbal reminder to not move until I send her in for the retrieve. Additionally we have not worked on honoring yet.
I believe though that now that the Iowa pheasant season is about to close and we can start to focus on training exclusively in a more controlled situation I can start to tighten her up on steadiness. I am just not sure that going out 2-3 times a week for the field work is enough for her. What do you think? Is doing more back yard (and DNR designated dog training area) training on whoa and steadiness with, say, my pigeons and then go out a couple of times a week on wild birds or at preserve to translate the yard work to the field enough? I can definitely do the yard work more than the field work, since it is my back yard and I have the birds right there! I mean, I could do the yard work every day (except I can’t shoot my blank pistol because I live in town). The field work is a lot more time consuming and keeps me away from family and other stuff.
My goal with this dog is to run her in AKC amateur gun dog stakes (likely walking trial exclusively), and then once I have completed the force fetching process (she is a natural retriever but she is a bit hard mouthed) and all the retrieving stuff I would like to run her in the AKC MH tests. After that I would attempt than NAVHDA UPT and UT.
Re: Training frequency question for green broke pointing dogs
Most important is to have a plan or program and stick with it. Frequency doesn't matter as much as knowing what you want to do and how you're going to do it. Going with your plan once a week will yield more results than going out every day and just messing around with no intentions.
Do what you can when you can and be flexible in what you had planned to accomplish. For instance you might plan on working on backing, but a great stop to flush opportunity pops up. If that goes great you might continue with the backing, but if STF goes south, it might be better to do the backing another day.
I've had dogs that retained training lessons going a week or 10 days in between, and others that did better with training every single day. Most did well with every other day. I had one that all I did was give him the AKC guidelines to read in his crate
Another about wore me out...he'd get one thing down then figure out 2 or 3 alternative ways of doing it that were more to his liking.
Number of birds per sessions is beyond variable. Sometimes one is too many and other times a dozen doesn't seem like enough.
Good luck in your endeavors and enjoy the ride.
Do what you can when you can and be flexible in what you had planned to accomplish. For instance you might plan on working on backing, but a great stop to flush opportunity pops up. If that goes great you might continue with the backing, but if STF goes south, it might be better to do the backing another day.
I've had dogs that retained training lessons going a week or 10 days in between, and others that did better with training every single day. Most did well with every other day. I had one that all I did was give him the AKC guidelines to read in his crate
Another about wore me out...he'd get one thing down then figure out 2 or 3 alternative ways of doing it that were more to his liking.
Number of birds per sessions is beyond variable. Sometimes one is too many and other times a dozen doesn't seem like enough.
Good luck in your endeavors and enjoy the ride.
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birddogger2
- Rank: 3X Champion
- Posts: 544
- Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:15 am
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Re: Training frequency question for green broke pointing dogs
Giuseppe wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 2:07 pmHello,
I have a question regarding training frequency.
Aside from conditioning with roading, summer camps on wild birds, etc., how often per week do you train your young green broke pointing dogs?
.....
I am currently retired. When I was working I trained my dogs daily, in fact twice a day...weather permitting. I lived in the suburbs on a 100 X 125 propery>. I did heel whoa drills for about five minutes per dog in the morning and about the same at night. Other than that I let them run in a fenced in back yard. On weekends I would go somewhere on Saturday to let the dogs run, sometimes just running in birdless fields and sometimes with planted birds.
In particular, when working on steadiness (which to me includes, steady to wing and shot, stop to flush and honoring) how often do you train during the week?
.....
When i was working, I tried to do some live bird training of some sort...once per week. Occasionally, when it was possible, I might sneak out on Sunday also, for a couple hours, if I could.
How many bird contacts per sessions?
.....
If I set up the training scenario correctly and the dog did it right the first time... one was enough. I learned that it was much more beneficial for the dog to quit a winner. One and done should be the goal.
In most cases, my maximum was three contacts. If I didn't get what I wanted to see in three contacts, it was time to back up to something else the dog knew how to do very well and end on a positive note.
How often do you yard train vs field train? Would you, for example, go back during the week to basic yard work with whoa commands?
....
My heel/whoa drills are a progressive thing. I start out with heel and do a start and stop thing. That stop eventually morphs into a "whoa" where I can walk out front of the dog and simulate a flush.
Would you maybe add steadiness to pigeons released from a game bag, doing this still in the yard?
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Yes, occasionally, if I thought it would be useful. I typically work on steadiness and style using a wobble bench(a metal sawhorse with a 3/4" X 24" X 30" piece of plywood loosely fastened to the horse with one , 1/4" bolt). Some folks use a bench, or a barrel or a placeboard...same concept. having the dog up off the ground, styled up, is a good place for them to learn to just watch a wing locked pigeon wander around on the ground or to fly a pigeon.
And then would you add a certain number of days in the field working on planted or wild birds still working on steadiness? How often would you do one and how often the other?
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Now I can do whatever training I need to, whenever. Back when i was working, it was pretty much weekends only for field work.
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Once the dog is steady I am ALWAYS working on steadiness. No wild birds hereabouts.
Say, you have a green broke dog and you want to get this dog ready to campaign in AKC amateur gun dog stakes (likely walking stakes), or for MH tests, what would be your training frequency specifically on steadiness?
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I did the yardwork as described above and kept it fun and interesting for the dog, as best I could. n
I am particularly interested in the opinion of amateurs competitors running AKC gun dog stakes, MH tests as well as NAVHDA UPT and UT. I am not so interested in the opinion of professional trainers since training is their job and they don’t have time constraints (other that they need to train multiple dogs), but suggestions from anybody are always welcome of course.
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FWIW I developed about 6 dogs to the competitive level while working and living on that 100 X 125 property. It took organization and planning. The area I lived in was, and still is, one of the most competitive shooting dog field trial areas in the country. My dogs have placed in AF, AKC(walking and horseback) and USCSDA competition, both open and amateur. I never entered in hunt tests.
Additionally I wanted to share this very interesting article from a canine behaviorist. The article cites and goes over a couple of scientific papers that seem to indicate that training frequency does not necessarily correlated with better learning in dogs. I found this to be very interesting. Here it is: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/dog-trai ... er-sheehy/
I realize that the answers to my questions are heavily dependent on the individual dogs temperament, at what point they are in their training, the trainer experience, etc. If these questions generate enough interest, I will gladly share my story and where my dog is at with training, but I did not want to make this initial post too long.
Thank you in advance for your answers.
You have already been given this advice...but I will reiterate it as it is key to your success.
PLAN YOUR WORK... THEN GO OUT AND WORK YOUR PLAN.
Know exactly what you want to accomplish with the upcoming training session. Know exactly how you are going to go about doing the training. Timing is EVERYTHING in dog training, If you know the what and the how, your timing will be soooo much better. Know what you are going to start with and know what will mean the session is at an end, for good or bad. Gather all the tools you will need to accomplish the training and lastly...think about what could go wrong and how you are going to handle it. Again...TIMING.
G
Re: Training frequency question for green broke pointing dogs
Most of the dogs I have trained and hunt with are MH dogs and by far most of my training is obedience and yard work. Most DQs in AKC MH tests are from not being steady. So, I work more on steadiness And Whoa training. Once the dog will stop reliably every time, I work a little on that every day along with other obedience commands. Just occasional stops and a few here commands, when the dogs are free running. when he is pointing solid and holding for the flush I only do a couple sessions a week to get on wild or planted birds. Not a lot of birds. If it is bird season I hunt over the young dog. Dogs Have an excellent memory and retain what they learn very well if it is not over done. I also quietly caution the dog when I walk in to flush the bird......Cj
Re: Training frequency question for green broke pointing dogs
Some of that depends on the age of the dog. When I was training for UT and later invitational I trained every day. Some days were water. Other days field. Sometimes retrieve and always obedience. My dog is seven now and has passed all her NAVHDA tests as well as become a Master Hunter with AKC. She also hunts a lot in the winter. I sometimes Field trial her if I am in the area where one is offered. She knows all the rules and I do not need to train every day anymore. I usually just brush up on her training before a trial. I am not a pro trainer, but have managed to train both my dogs to high levels. Most training is just repetition. Over and over until it becomes second nature for the dog to do it correctly.
Re: Training frequency question for green broke pointing dogs
Thank you guys for all the answers. This was really helpful. I am really enjoying the training with my dog, and never realized how cool it is to try to train a dog to a high standard. Personally, I find it more entertaining than hunting itself. I guess when it will all come together (fully trained dog hunting wild birds) it will be a moment to be savored. And definitely I am starting to learn that it is much more important to enjoy the journey that to hurry in getting the training goal or field trial success accomplished.
Cheers
G
Cheers
G
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Re: Training frequency question for green broke pointing dogs
Fun Dog, I congratulate you on your previous successes with your dogs. That said, dog training is anything but repetition. Taking the wrong tack on a dog "repetitively" is not going to serve anyone. Reading dogs is a huge part of training success. As such, you need to be more than a one trick pony.