Inbreeding or line breeding?

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Tenderfoot
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Inbreeding or line breeding?

Post by Tenderfoot » Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:31 am

Not trying to start an argument but trying to flesh out some details in a dog I’m interested in. When it comes to inbreeding is there a cut off or coefficient you don’t want to cross? From what little I know, doesn’t inbreeding occurs to try and achieve certain traits or qualities, but then on the flip side isn’t there a point where it’s to much and how do you know what’s to much? For example Dams pedigree indicates 9.22% inbreeding..is that allot?

Thanks for the help

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Re: Inbreeding or line breeding?

Post by birddogger2 » Sat Apr 04, 2020 8:13 am

Tenderfoot-

I tend not to look at COI numerticals because I feel their focus is somewhat misdirected. soooo, I went and looked this up:
.........
Putting your dog’s COI result into perspective

The COI calculator provides you with a percentage score; the lower the percentage, the lower the degree of inbreeding.

Therefore, an inbreeding coefficient of:

0% indicates a dog that comes from two apparently unrelated parents, based on all available pedigree information
12.5% would be the genetic equivalent of a dog produced from a grandfather to granddaughter mating, or the mating of a half-brother/sister
25% would be the genetic equivalent of a dog produced from a father to daughter mating, or the mating of full-brother/sister
.......

I personally would have no problem with purchasing the progeny of a grandfather to granddaughter mating and in fact have done pretty much that, several times over the years, and never really had any issues. I do FDSB pointers. In my current youngest dog, the same sire(Ch. Erin's Southern Justice) appears four times in five generations and two of those appearances were essentially a brother/sister mating in the third generation(which produced a multiple champion, Hall of Fame dog, named Ch. Erin's Bad River, BTW) .
In my next older dog, that same sire(Bad River) is present in the third generation on the dam's side and once on the sire's side. Another sire(Miller's Silver Bullett), is present four times in the fifth generation and several time further back and a third sire, Guard Rail, is present about 10-15 times going back beyond the fifth generation near as I can count.

FWIW, both dogs are healthy.

In my view, if the breeding produces the result of reproducing and solidifying in the line, the desired physical and mental attributes without introducing significant negative attributes, it is desirable,regardless of the COI. If a brother/sister mating of two stellar champion dogs produces pups with the characteristics and superior abilities of one or both parents without introducing serious genetic flaws, that is the desired goal of selective breeding.

Thus, in my view, the primary responsibility for this activity rests with the breeder.

Of course, the breeding of animals that are closely related always carries the increased risk of serious and significant genetic flaws being brought to the surface in that specific litter and gene pool. If a breeder is going to breed close, they are going to have to be willing to cull aggressively. I would expect a breeder who does breed close to be willing to cull and have pups returned, and have a policy to compensate puppy purchasers if such becomes necessary.

As a prospective purchaser, it really comes down to what you yourself are comfortable with.

RayG

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Re: Inbreeding or line breeding?

Post by cjhills » Sat Apr 04, 2020 9:04 am

First you must be aware line breeding is inbreeding.
The COI of a grandsire to a granddaughter goes up dramatically depending on the number of common dogs in the parents pedigree. For instance if the granddaughters dam was the grandsires sister or some other common relative.
The theory is to breed out the bad by selecting the good. Good Luck with that.
I have study this over many years of breeding. Talk with huge numbers of long time breeders, studied COI and done some close breedings with COIs in the High 30s and . Some with very good results some with not so good results. I was a firm believer in what we call line breeding.
The biggest thing I have learned is that bloodlines have some things, both good and bad that you will never get rid of no matter how long you try. Your dogs will never improve without outcrossing. Most really bigtime dogs never produce better than they are. Some of that is environmental. The closer you line breed the more chance of some recessive gene you never heard of popping up a few generations down the road that will ruin your whole plan.
Buying one puppy which you never plan to breed will likely not be an issue, but there are some bloodlines to stay away from. I have had some great dogs with high COI and some not so great. For one dog if you know the bloodlines I like a high COI but not for a breeding dog......Cj

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Re: Inbreeding or line breeding?

Post by averageguy » Sat Apr 04, 2020 9:48 am

All the great lines of dogs have come about from tight breeding practices.

As noted, it produces some dogs which must be culled and now days most people have difficulty with that. Culling from future breeding use is easy, but if the dog is not useable for its intended purpose that can cause a lot of heart ache for the owner and headaches for the Breeder.

My adult dog is line bred on a stud dog which is his grandfather both top and bottom. He is a nice dog - I posted of photo of him on point this past week.

I received some video and photos of an awesome 1 year old dog which has that same Stud dog 3 times up close in its pedigree. Another beautiful stylish and high powered dog.

Both of the litters which produced those two dogs, also produced one pup in each with soft temperaments (one still very useful and happily hunting, the other not).

Tight breeding intensifies the genetics and produces some of the best and some of the worst animals. Works out well as long as people are willing to deal with that. Most are not.

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Re: Inbreeding or line breeding?

Post by cjhills » Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:53 am

Average guy
That is just simply not the case.
While your dog may very well be a very nice talented dog with wonderful ancestors, the fact of the matter is that he is very likely carrying Genetic issues that will eventually show up if he or his blood lines are continued to be line bred without some huge outcrosses. Canines regress toward the mean and will eventually breed themselves out of existence. The Isle Royal wolf pack did exactly that. How many of the Elhew lines exist today without significant out crossing?
I can tell you about many big time bloodlines that no longer exist today.
It makes a great sales pitch for breeders. Some were or are very well known breeders I used to buy into that. But mother nature and experience has taught me that most are blowing smoke. Some lesson proved very costly.
If you breed your dog he may produce some very nice puppies. But your best bet is a carefully selected outcross. Keep in mind your dog likely has at least one of the genes the bad puppies carry and it is very likely that a close relative has one also.....CJ
Last edited by cjhills on Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Inbreeding or line breeding?

Post by averageguy » Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:02 am

CJ,

I do not know what you are finding to argue about or fault in my post. Never did I say line breeding can be carried on to infinity without problems or the need to outcross at some point. Of course outcrossing will be needed at some point, but the best breeders do it only when forced to as it tends to throw the deck of cards up in the air as to predictable specific genetics.

There is no lack of evidence that line breeding has produced our best lines of dogs.

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Re: Inbreeding or line breeding?

Post by polmaise » Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:06 pm

Breeders in the past who extensively line bred required to cull .
Breeders these days sell pups .
Speaking about kennel name set -ups , not Mr brown breeding his bitch with his best shooting buddies dog .
...
Line breeding can be and has been proven to be very successful in producing traits required by the 'breeders' ,after all the Rhodesian ridgeback is a mutant , all the ones without the ridge were 'bred out' and Not sold ! :wink:

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Re: Inbreeding or line breeding?

Post by Featherfinder » Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:39 pm

Polmaise, you are spot on! Today, too many of the breeders are blinded by $$$$$. To say that breeders do not breed for a profit is as much a lie. I'm not here to judge.
Here is a good one to make a point re breeder integrity. I know of a DD breeder not that far from "here". As many know here, DDs are not just bred at will. They are supposed to follow the breed specific guidelines via the German parent institution.
A friend comes along with his new DD. I say, "Nice. Looks more like a GSP but....?" He says, "It's a DD but has a bad bite so I got him cheap!"
How did this pup get this way following such stringent DD guidelines? And, what SHOULD have happened with this pup? Hmmm.....?
I think we know what Mr. Welhe would have done.

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Re: Inbreeding or line breeding?

Post by averageguy » Sat Apr 04, 2020 2:30 pm

Featherfinder wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:39 pm
Polmaise, you are spot on! Today, too many of the breeders are blinded by $$$$$. To say that breeders do not breed for a profit is as much a lie. I'm not here to judge.
Here is a good one to make a point re breeder integrity. I know of a DD breeder not that far from "here". As many know here, DDs are not just bred at will. They are supposed to follow the breed specific guidelines via the German parent institution.
A friend comes along with his new DD. I say, "Nice. Looks more like a GSP but....?" He says, "It's a DD but has a bad bite so I got him cheap!"
How did this pup get this way following such stringent DD guidelines? And, what SHOULD have happened with this pup? Hmmm.....?
I think we know what Mr. Welhe would have done.
A Breeder who says they have never produced a pup with a bad bite has either bred only a very few litters or they are a liar.

I am a member of the VDD-GNA which over sees the DD breeding in North America and can easily speak to your post.

DKs were used to develop the DDs and so genetics for appearance as a GSP can and does crop up. Going forward it is happening less as we now have and are using genetic testing for beard and eyebrow furnishings, and informed people in the Breed are insisting on its use. So dogs which get bred will increasingly have proper coats and appearances.

Some percentage of bad bites occurs in all lines and breeds. The dog you describe will not be allowed to bred in the DD registry. Whether the dog remains useful to its owner for hunting is unrelated to whether it can not be used for breeding. As to what happens between the breeder and buyer is between them. Most owners are not going to put down a dog for having a bad bite, they will simply not breed the dog. If the owner was planning on breeding the dog they most often put the dog up for sale and the dog is placed in a non-breeding hunter only home.

What you posted does not support a conclusion of nefarious actions on any one's part absent more information than was posted.

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Re: Inbreeding or line breeding?

Post by Featherfinder » Sat Apr 04, 2020 4:19 pm

Well, I learned something for sure Averageguy. Obviously, DD breed-lines/genetics are not that familiar to me. I have worked with them but do not have enough of a personal interest in the breed to delve into the German mantra because like most of these concepts, they are as effective of the PEOPLE that implement them, as you and that other chap have established. I guess my cursory understanding of said process is uninformed. From what you are sharing, it sounds to me like the German process is not as stringent as I understood it to be. Sounds a bit helter-skelter to me but again....???

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Re: Inbreeding or line breeding?

Post by averageguy » Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:42 pm

Featherfinder wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 4:19 pm
Well, I learned something for sure Averageguy. Obviously, DD breed-lines/genetics are not that familiar to me. I have worked with them but do not have enough of a personal interest in the breed to delve into the German mantra because like most of these concepts, they are as effective of the PEOPLE that implement them, as you and that other chap have established. I guess my cursory understanding of said process is uninformed. From what you are sharing, it sounds to me like the German process is not as stringent as I understood it to be. Sounds a bit helter-skelter to me but again....???
I am confused by your response?

The system is very stringent.

Dogs are examined and tattoo'd when the litter is born by a breed warden. All dogs must be tested through VJP and HZP with passing scores and must have Health screening for hips, elbows, thyroid and blood disorder, and run through a conformation evaluation before being eligible for breeding (which includes size, stance, appearance, bite and coat). Those tests must be run the year following the dog's birth so no waiting until a dog has been trained for years before being evaluated. "Performance Breedings" adds an additional higher standard that both sire and dam also be tested at the VGP level and being judged Scent Loud.

Those evaluations assure dogs which get bred have natural ability for point track and retrieve and sound temperaments to accept and retain training, are healthy with good coats and conformation.

No system can assure some latent undesirable genetics might not crop up, but it does assure dogs with those undesirable traits are not allowed to breed.

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Re: Inbreeding or line breeding?

Post by cjhills » Sat Apr 04, 2020 6:15 pm

Featherfinder wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:39 pm
Polmaise, you are spot on! Today, too many of the breeders are blinded by $$$$$. To say that breeders do not breed for a profit is as much a lie. I'm not here to judge.
Here is a good one to make a point re breeder integrity. I know of a DD breeder not that far from "here". As many know here, DDs are not just bred at will. They are supposed to follow the breed specific guidelines via the German parent institution.
A friend comes along with his new DD. I say, "Nice. Looks more like a GSP but....?" He says, "It's a DD but has a bad bite so I got him cheap!"
How did this pup get this way following such stringent DD guidelines? And, what SHOULD have happened with this pup? Hmmm.....?
I think we know what Mr. Welhe would have done.
Mr. Wehle in 50 years of close line breeding and many culled litters and puppies never got rid of the bite issues, cow hocks and who knows how many other issues that we could see. Lethal Alleles Killed off many of his Experiments before they got far enough to tell how they turned out. He gave me the only pointer I ever owned.
I do not agree that breeders are blinded by dollars, in most cases everybody has good intentions. Obviously most have to pay their way by some means.
Most have to sell their theories to their clients. Some of that takes a little embellishment. I have been sold a lot of theories. None quiet lived up to the hype.
I don't know that there is really any great lines of dogs. No bloodlines seem to have a very long shelf life and are great because of promotion and and breeders that breed huge numbers of puppies from the same stud dog.
I am not really big on retriever lines but it does seem most popular lines die out because of some genetic reason or another. I could have bought my house for what some people pay for a retriever puppy to try to win a national champion. A great blood line should have a few. but they Don't.
We all know people who spend huge amounts of money to breed a national champion. They pretty much never get there and if they do almost none do it a second time with the same bloodline. There Is little or no improvement from line breeding. All genetic improvement comes from out crossing.
Shadow Oaks Bo was bred to the best Setter females there was, by some of the biggest money dog breeders in the world I don't believe any of the pups have had there picture taken on the steps at AMES. And a few years ago you could buy all you wanted for $400.
It ain't easy boys and girls...….Cj

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Re: Inbreeding or line breeding?

Post by averageguy » Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:05 pm

Performance Dogs of all types, Performance Horses of all types, Beef Cattle, Dairy Cattle, Hogs all beg to differ with your claims against line breeding.

Hans Wagner's Nightrider B&Ts, Bill Turpins Redbones, John Houses Walkers, Jon Plott's Plott Curs, Richard McDuffie's Leopard Curs, Dave Dean's Northern Blue Jet Blueticks, Ed Able's Sooner Cooner B&Ts, Miller's EPs, Elhew's EPs, Sharpshooter GSPs, Shooting Starr GSPs, SixGun GSPs, Bone Point GWPs, Cascade GWPs, Three Devils GWPs were/are all examples of top notch line bred hunting dogs.

Culling comes with Line Breeding and does not negate its benefits, rather it maintains it.

Every Breeder needs to find good outcrosses but that does not remotely erase all the ample evidence of the benefits and fruits of line breeding. Every area of animal husbandry uses it. Even Tyson Chickens uses it.

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Re: Inbreeding or line breeding?

Post by cjhills » Sat Apr 04, 2020 8:30 pm

averageguy wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:05 pm
Performance Dogs of all types, Performance Horses of all types, Beef Cattle, Dairy Cattle, Hogs all beg to differ with your claims against line breeding.

Hans Wagner's Nightrider B&Ts, Bill Turpins Redbones, John Houses Walkers, Jon Plott's Plott Curs, Richard McDuffie's Leopard Curs, Dave Dean's Northern Blue Jet Blueticks, Ed Able's Sooner Cooner B&Ts, Miller's EPs, Elhew's EPs, Sharpshooter GSPs, Shooting Starr GSPs, SixGun GSPs, Bone Point GWPs, Cascade GWPs, Three Devils GWPs were/are all examples of top notch line bred hunting dogs.

Culling comes with Line Breeding and does not negate its benefits, rather it maintains it.

Every Breeder needs to find good outcrosses but that does not remotely erase all the ample evidence of the benefits and fruits of line breeding. Every area of animal husbandry uses it. Even Tyson Chickens uses it.
All of the breeders on this list that I am familiar with produced some pretty good dogs. None produced exceptional dogs. Millers may have but he was the worlds biggest outcrosser for years and bred hundreds of dogs every year. Elhew had one or two exceptional dogs maybe even a national champion but he bred thousands of dogs. And his lines largely disappeared on the national scene in a few years
Shooting Starr and Sharpshooter are breeders I am very familiar with there is nothing exceptional with either one of their kennels. They produce good dogs but not a lot different then half the breeders in wisc. and Mn. It is mostly hype. I don't believe either one do real tight inbreeding. I don't know if I have read many articles in the NAVHDA against inbreeding by the dr. who started Shooting Starr.
The hound people probably do the best.
In All of the market animals you mention Know crossbred Animals Perform better.
Then there are the big dollar linebreeders who nearly destroyed their breed. This is mainly in the retriever Breeds.....Cj
Last edited by cjhills on Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Inbreeding or line breeding?

Post by Tenderfoot » Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:25 pm

birddogger2 wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 8:13 am
Tenderfoot-

I tend not to look at COI numerticals because I feel their focus is somewhat misdirected. soooo, I went and looked this up:
.........
Putting your dog’s COI result into perspective

The COI calculator provides you with a percentage score; the lower the percentage, the lower the degree of inbreeding.

Therefore, an inbreeding coefficient of:

0% indicates a dog that comes from two apparently unrelated parents, based on all available pedigree information
12.5% would be the genetic equivalent of a dog produced from a grandfather to granddaughter mating, or the mating of a half-brother/sister
25% would be the genetic equivalent of a dog produced from a father to daughter mating, or the mating of full-brother/sister
.......

I personally would have no problem with purchasing the progeny of a grandfather to granddaughter mating and in fact have done pretty much that, several times over the years, and never really had any issues. I do FDSB pointers. In my current youngest dog, the same sire(Ch. Erin's Southern Justice) appears four times in five generations and two of those appearances were essentially a brother/sister mating in the third generation(which produced a multiple champion, Hall of Fame dog, named Ch. Erin's Bad River, BTW) .
In my next older dog, that same sire(Bad River) is present in the third generation on the dam's side and once on the sire's side. Another sire(Miller's Silver Bullett), is present four times in the fifth generation and several time further back and a third sire, Guard Rail, is present about 10-15 times going back beyond the fifth generation near as I can count.

FWIW, both dogs are healthy.

In my view, if the breeding produces the result of reproducing and solidifying in the line, the desired physical and mental attributes without introducing significant negative attributes, it is desirable,regardless of the COI. If a brother/sister mating of two stellar champion dogs produces pups with the characteristics and superior abilities of one or both parents without introducing serious genetic flaws, that is the desired goal of selective breeding.

Thus, in my view, the primary responsibility for this activity rests with the breeder.

Of course, the breeding of animals that are closely related always carries the increased risk of serious and significant genetic flaws being brought to the surface in that specific litter and gene pool. If a breeder is going to breed close, they are going to have to be willing to cull aggressively. I would expect a breeder who does breed close to be willing to cull and have pups returned, and have a policy to compensate puppy purchasers if such becomes necessary.

As a prospective purchaser, it really comes down to what you yourself are comfortable with.

RayG
Thank you very much. Definitely answers my question.

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Re: Inbreeding or line breeding?

Post by averageguy » Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:13 am

Tenderfoot,

An excellent in depth read on this subject is contained in Bob Farris (world famous breeder of Pudelpointers) recent book Breeding & Training Versatile Hunting Dogs For Hunting & Tests. His Cedarwoods line of Pudelpointers is known by all with any knowledge of that breed, and similar breeds, and resulted from Line Breeding.

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Re: Inbreeding or line breeding?

Post by Garrison » Sun Apr 05, 2020 2:01 pm

Buying a pup is a gamble any way you look at it. If your goal is the end product, a dog that hunts in a certain fashion, than a pup in most cases may not be your best option.

If you are process oriented, want the puppy experience and want to develop the pup, that is understandable, but understand you are accepting the risk of significantly decreasing the odds of reaching your end goal of a solid finished bird dog. If you are lacking the time, resources and experience of a professional trainer (me), on top of the fact that not all breedings turn out as desired, you are at a disadvantage if you are only placing one bet.

The best way to hedge your bet in the puppy category, is to work with a breeder with a proven line of dogs, that hunt the game that you will be pursuing, in a fashion that you desire and let them be the judge of the animals that they are choosing to breed for that purpose. A good breeder knows what has worked and what hasn’t worked and they stake their reputation on producing it. But it is still a gamble, out of all the dogs they see and produce, they tend to only select few that give them the desired results, most of the time, for a reason.

On the other hand, purchasing a well started or finished dog gives you a huge advantage because you know what you are getting, instead of hoping.

I have been on the winning and losing end of pup development. Very rewarding when you pull it all together, very difficult when it doesn’t. Especially if family attachment is part of the equation. When it comes to development of a bird dog it can be difficult to gain inches and easy to lose yards. That’s why it is so rewarding if it works out.

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Re: Inbreeding or line breeding?

Post by cjhills » Sun Apr 05, 2020 3:07 pm

Fonzie:
One last thought.
I have bred and purchased in the hundreds of GSP puppies in the mid western states from many breeders over the last 50 years. Almost without exception all have been very good personal bird dogs. Very few made it into my kennel as breeding dogs. The reason is the genetic issues that many bloodlines have. Most were From NAVHDA dogs after it was started.
Many of these dogs were from Kennels on AG's list. Or closely related to them. A good share of the GSPs in Iowa, Wisc, and MN. will have common ancestors in their pedigree if they are competition dogs. It is easy to breed a fairly high COI with out even knowing it. These same dogs have a fairly high amount of genetic issues, that pop up occasionally. Bad dispositions bad bites and poor conformation being the most common, but some health issues also.
As I said before it is not a issue if you are buying a family bird dog. But If you are buying a breeding dog your chances are better with a Low COI dog.
If you live long enough and don't give up you will find out you never knew what you don't know......Cj

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Re: Inbreeding or line breeding?

Post by Featherfinder » Mon Apr 06, 2020 5:46 am

VERY sage info Garrison. Your point resonates here because I see my fair share of folk that try to train their own dogs, folk that think wild birds will train their dog, folks that seek a pro, folk that buy various degrees of already trained dogs. It's not a one-size-fits-all, as you succinctly offered.
Geeez CJ....that's a pretty gloomy comment re GSPs! I believe what you offered to be true which further supports my question, "Have you considered another breed perhaps?"

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Re: Inbreeding or line breeding?

Post by averageguy » Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:33 am

FF,
I have seen hundreds of those GSPs lines of dogs in training and testing, have hunted over quite a few, have numerous Friends who are wildly successful breeding, training, hunting, trialing and testing those lines of GSPs I mentioned.

GSP is arguably the strongest main stream breed of pointing gundog on the planet.

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Re: Inbreeding or line breeding?

Post by cjhills » Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:55 am

AG
I doubt you have bred any of these dogs , I have. As I said almost all were excellent family bird dogs or competition dogs.
You talk about breeders have to cull there puppies.
How do you cull puppies for seizures, liver shunt, heart issues and many other issues that you do not see? There are some very bad-tempered
dogs being bred by the breeders you mention. I know from using their studdogs And as you said there were soft dogs in your dogs litter. your dog kike carries a gene for softness and so does his close relative. Every breeder no matter how big and successful has something under the rug. Can honestly say you have not heard of a popular
bloodline that was destroyed by line breeding, especially retrievers.
FF: Close inbreeding nearly destroyed the English setter and Irish setter breeds. To this day there are not nearly as many really good English setters as there was 40 years ago. Thanks to changing the name and breeding practices Red Setters are becoming very nice dogs.
English Pointers have produced very good individuals but has a breed heart and hip issues are increasing because most breeders do not test
Very few genetic professors at the UofM, who are also dog breeders and who I took courses from, believe line breeding to be inherently good. Most think it will eventually destroy the breeds. I find this very concerning .....Cj

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Re: Inbreeding or line breeding?

Post by averageguy » Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:31 am

Well I guess since you sent me a PM with the real backstory on this some time ago I will go ahead and let the cat out of the bag.

You bred your GSPs to one of the most sought after (then and now) lines of GSPs around. Some bad bites showed up in your line and you blame that Breeder for it. You then go so far as to claim a coverup going to the highest levels of NAVHDA which explains a lot about your comments around that organization and those lines of dogs as well.

You are standing alone in all this negativity regarding some of the strongest lines within one the strongest breeds available is what I see.

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Re: Inbreeding or line breeding?

Post by DonF » Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:39 am

cjhills wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:53 am
Average guy
That is just simply not the case.
While your dog may very well be a very nice talented dog with wonderful ancestors, the fact of the matter is that he is very likely carrying Genetic issues that will eventually show up if he or his blood lines are continued to be line bred without some huge outcrosses. Canines regress toward the mean and will eventually breed themselves out of existence. The Isle Royal wolf pack did exactly that. How many of the Elhew lines exist today without significant out crossing?
I can tell you about many big time bloodlines that no longer exist today.
It makes a great sales pitch for breeders. Some were or are very well known breeders I used to buy into that. But mother nature and experience has taught me that most are blowing smoke. Some lesson proved very costly.
If you breed your dog he may produce some very nice puppies. But your best bet is a carefully selected outcross. Keep in mind your dog likely has at least one of the genes the bad puppies carry and it is very likely that a close relative has one also.....CJ
Robert Wehle was the first I heard about out crossing years ago. He claimed it refreshed the blood and was necessary the breed the best dog's. Not every time but when you start to notice your not really getting what you want. I had an Elhew/Hooks Bounty Hunter dog that was really something. But like most pointer's much more dog than I wanted. I like to watch the dog work!

averageguy
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Posts: 827
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Re: Inbreeding or line breeding?

Post by averageguy » Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:49 am

Every breeder needs an outcross along the way.

But what do they do immediately following?

If they had a good genetic line to begin with they go right back to breeding the best dogs resulting from the outcross back into the original line bred dogs.

Key is to know when an outcross is beneficial vs harmful. It by definition introduces a whole new set of genetics to deal with which lessens predictability in the pups produced. The whole purpose of line breeding is to reduce genetic variability around desirable traits.

The pups resulting from an outcross may be dandies for performance, but they are often not so hot at all for breeding due to the lack of predictability in their genetics. Takes things right back to the average instead of elevating them.

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Featherfinder
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 922
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 3:15 pm

Re: Inbreeding or line breeding?

Post by Featherfinder » Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:15 am

Spot on AV.
Geeez DonF, too bad you didn't go into that relationship with that super-bred young pointer knowing how to redirect that power into a super-gun-dog early on! Can you imagine what you'd have today!?!?!
Many renegade dogs are not brought along/nurtured to work WITH the owner. Too often, they are the source of early erosive experiences as in, "You gotta see my GUN dog run!" :roll:
Not saying that's what YOU did but it's what I've found to be the case, too often.
CJ, I'm with you about Irish setters. They were ruined by becoming main stream and by breeders motivated by the $$$$$, but I already said that didn't I?

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