Is It Time to Give Up?

Post Reply
Dakotazeb
Rank: 3X Champion
Posts: 572
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2014 1:10 pm
Location: South Dakota / Arizona

Is It Time to Give Up?

Post by Dakotazeb » Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:39 pm

I have a 4 year old female Brittany. I got her when she was 6 months old. She has a great pedigree and a ton of potential. I got her to have as a pheasant hunting dog, house pet and to run in NSTRA trials. I have run her in some NSTRA trials the past couple of years and she has 10 amateur points. She has a super nose and runs a big field. The problem I have is that she has become "trial smart". She knows she can catch those planted quail. She has been DQ'd several times and I'm about ready to give up on her as a trial dog. I've had her to a couple different trainers for 2-3 months each. She works great for them and they had little difficulty getting her steady to W,S & F. They have both commented that she is the "real deal" and that they don't see a dog like her with her ability very often. They say her prey drive is "over the top" and that is probably part of her problem. I have worked with both trainers in the field with her and she is steady as a rock. But take her home and to a trial the next week and it's like she has forgotten everything. When I work with her in the field by myself she is excellent nearly all the time. But get her to a trial and she knows there is no e-collar and that I can't lay a hand on her. So my question is, do I just give up on trialing her? Or is there someone out there that can fix this problem. I know that if she didn't take out birds she'd be a NSTRA champion. She is turning out to be a very good upland bird dog and is an outstanding pet and house dog. Thanks for any advice you may have.

cjhills
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2296
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:37 am
Location: aitkin,mn

Re: Is It Time to Give Up?

Post by cjhills » Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:17 pm

You don't say if you or the trainers can run her and keep her steady without a ecollar in training situations.
If you can get some helpers to set up the same situation as NASTRA and run her with a ecollar. Depending on her temperament I think I would hammer her pretty hard when she moves. Try setting her back when she moves and do not let her catch the bird. If they will let you do that in an event or two that would help. I realize you would be DQ'd. But you are anyway. If she works good for the trainers but not for you, and she knows she can get away with it, she should change her mind when she learns there are consequences.
Dogs don't cheat they just need to be trained better........Cj

Dakotazeb
Rank: 3X Champion
Posts: 572
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2014 1:10 pm
Location: South Dakota / Arizona

Re: Is It Time to Give Up?

Post by Dakotazeb » Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:49 pm

Yes, she is steady without an e-collar with the trainers. My problem is I don't have access to birds or training ground in my area. Wish there was a gun dog club in the area. When I'm in Arizona for the winter I have joined the Arizona Pointing Dog Club so I'm hoping they have a venue where I can train and get some assistance.

User avatar
deseeker
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 990
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:38 pm
Location: Blair, Nebraska

Re: Is It Time to Give Up?

Post by deseeker » Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:11 pm

There is a NAVHDA club in Sioux Falls and they do a lot of training & have access to birds. You could probablly get them to do a couple fake
shoot to retreive trials with an e-collar on. They train for AKC hunt test and about every other situation. They are a good bunch of people and enjoy helping people out. If you are in their part of SD, you might give them a try. Good Luck with your dog. :D
Doug

cjhills
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2296
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:37 am
Location: aitkin,mn

Re: Is It Time to Give Up?

Post by cjhills » Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:43 am

Can't imagine any place in SD that wouldn't have access to training grounds of some sort.
If you could work with the trainer it would probably help.
Running her in AKC hunt tests would be a lot cheaper and a good way to train for NSTRA.
DO you keep her steady to WSF when hunting.
She sounds like to good of a dog to give up on her. She will have to do everything well and the situation is similar. like slow motion.
I guess the other question is why does she need a NSTRA champion......Cj

shags
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2582
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:57 pm

Re: Is It Time to Give Up?

Post by shags » Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:07 am

The dog has your number and knows he can get away with misbehaving, and is having a great time with it. You need to figure out a way to correct your dog on course within the rules of the trial organization.

I run AKC, and the book says no training at trials. But most judges don't mind and will look the other way after a mess up, if the handler wants to make a correction within reason. No wailing on a dog, no rough stuff, but grabbing a collar and a little shake up might be OK and might be enough to let your dog know he done wrong. I've been in your exact situation with young dogs and
getting a little heads up on course was all it took to turn them around. Just be careful and mindful of your sanctioning body's rules so you don't over step and get censured or something.

I had a dog years ago that was the opposite of all the others. No amount of correction at trials would affect him. He was perfect in training, but each and every trial, he'd find a new way to flip me the bird. So one weekend, after he took himself out of the running by busting a bird with 15 seconds left in the stake, I was done. Instead of correcting him, I just silently put him on a lead, went back to camp and pretty much ignored him. Because I'd driven 350 miles to this trial, and because scratching him from Sunday's stake would break the points for everyone else, I decided to run him that one last time, expecting more idiocy losing any sense of disappointment or frustration.

I don't for the life of me know what went on in that dog's head, but on that Sunday and on every other trial weekend, the dog was just as fine as he ever was in training. He finished his title over the next few weekends and was a lot of fun.

Long way around saying that whatever you're doing at trials after your dog blows it, try the opposite.

Good luck to you. I know exactly how frustrating your situation is. All the training groups and set ups in the world won't help. You need to get through to your knothead at a trial, so that he knows you can and will apply consequences to his misdeeds under any circumstances.

User avatar
gonehuntin'
GDF Junkie
Posts: 4636
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:38 pm
Location: NE WI.

Re: Is It Time to Give Up?

Post by gonehuntin' » Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:12 am

Hands on training. IF the dog is throughly conditioned to the ecollar, you now have to take it off and put on tennis shoes. When he makes a mistake, run the pirate down and show him the errors of his ways. This is no place for a bleeding heart.

birddogger2
Rank: 2X Champion
Posts: 470
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:15 am
Location: Lower slower Delaware

Re: Is It Time to Give Up?

Post by birddogger2 » Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:58 am

gonehuntin' wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:12 am
Hands on training. IF the dog is throughly conditioned to the ecollar, you now have to take it off and put on tennis shoes. When he makes a mistake, run the pirate down and show him the errors of his ways. This is no place for a bleeding heart.
I believe setting up a fake NSTRA trial is your best option. I am pretty old school and in the old days an ear job was the prescription of choice. Back then... it was chase the dog down and administer discipline. It was either that or a dose of Vitamin #9's which I will not do. A modern version of shooting a dog in the butt with fine shot is an airsoft pistol. That might work also.

When the dog messes up... and it will... go get it and stretch its ears for a good while. I MEAN literally and physically pick the dog up off the ground, by its ears, and give it plenty of verbal abuse as well.

THEN set the dog down, set it up on point, style it up, clip a lead on the dog...then take a quail out of your bird bag and toss it fairly hard into cover just in front of the dog. You want the bird to stay for a while, so try to knock the wind out of it when you toss it in. If the dog moves, so much as a toenail, pop the checkcord and reach down, grab an ear and, if necessary, give it a quick tug.

In all likelihood, you will only have to do this once. Brittanys are smart and your dog thinks she has you and the situation figured out. You need to alter that perception.

Pulling on a dog's ears hurts like HE!!, but the pain goes away as soon as you stop. I would say the vast majority of times there is no permanent injury to the dog. I have had to do this in years past, to several pointers and never had any injury result. However there is a risk of grain-pull type injury to the ear, so watch for swelling for a day or so.

Good luck.

RayG

User avatar
gonehuntin'
GDF Junkie
Posts: 4636
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:38 pm
Location: NE WI.

Re: Is It Time to Give Up?

Post by gonehuntin' » Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:06 am

birddogger2 wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:58 am
gonehuntin' wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:12 am
Hands on training. IF the dog is throughly conditioned to the ecollar, you now have to take it off and put on tennis shoes. When he makes a mistake, run the pirate down and show him the errors of his ways. This is no place for a bleeding heart.
I believe setting up a fake NSTRA trial is your best option. I am pretty old school and in the old days an ear job was the prescription of choice. Back then... it was chase the dog down and administer discipline. It was either that or a dose of Vitamin #9's which I will not do. A modern version of shooting a dog in the butt with fine shot is an airsoft pistol. That might work also.

When the dog messes up... and it will... go get it and stretch its ears for a good while. I MEAN literally and physically pick the dog up off the ground, by its ears, and give it plenty of verbal abuse as well.

THEN set the dog down, set it up on point, style it up, clip a lead on the dog...then take a quail out of your bird bag and toss it fairly hard into cover just in front of the dog. You want the bird to stay for a while, so try to knock the wind out of it when you toss it in. If the dog moves, so much as a toenail, pop the checkcord and reach down, grab an ear and, if necessary, give it a quick tug.

In all likelihood, you will only have to do this once. Brittanys are smart and your dog thinks she has you and the situation figured out. You need to alter that perception.

Pulling on a dog's ears hurts like HE!!, but the pain goes away as soon as you stop. I would say the vast majority of times there is no permanent injury to the dog. I have had to do this in years past, to several pointers and never had any injury result. However there is a risk of grain-pull type injury to the ear, so watch for swelling for a day or so.

Good luck.

RayG
ALSO known as a "Come to Jesus meeting". :D :D

mask
Rank: 3X Champion
Posts: 528
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Idaho

Re: Is It Time to Give Up?

Post by mask » Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:45 am

All dogs are not cut out to be trial dogs. It may boil down to how bad you want a trial dog. If this individual is a good hunting dog and pet, well 2 out of 3 isn't bad. Before I went to harsh measures to break it for trials ( shocking on birds) I would just get another dog or be happy with what you have.

shags
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2582
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:57 pm

Re: Is It Time to Give Up?

Post by shags » Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:09 am

Thing is guys, these dogs don't do wrong in training, so there isn't any meeting with Jesus. They are also smart enough to figure out that fake trial situations are just that, fake...and they know it's just more training. IME it's difficult to set up a good fake trial, because a bracemate won't suffice. You need rigs, chain gangs, a gallery, judges, and the whole thing to fake 'em out.
These knothead dogs are hella smart.
Ray's ear grab works great, but in cirrecting at trials you have to be careful. You probably get away with the dog yelping once or maybe twice (Oops, sorry, Judge. Must have caught some hair under his collar) but after that it's dicey.
And I also agree that the dog has to have some hands on correction rather than the ecollar. Remember when we were little kids and what kept us out of some trouble was that thought that mom or dad would get out the strap? Dogs are the same, that little bit of fear of consequences works to keep them in check.

Dakotazeb
Rank: 3X Champion
Posts: 572
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2014 1:10 pm
Location: South Dakota / Arizona

Re: Is It Time to Give Up?

Post by Dakotazeb » Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:56 am

Thanks for all the responses. To answer one of the questions about being a NSTRA champion. No, she doesn't need to get her championship. But she has the ability if I can get this problem resolved. I don't run NSTRA to champion a dog, I do it because I enjoy it and so does my dog. I've been involved in NSTRA for over 10 years and have made a lot of good friends. I enjoy seeing them and being around them and their dogs. I just want my dog to be competitive and run a good brace. If she gets a placement every now and then that's just gravy. But getting DQ'd every other brace is too frustrating and not much fun. I've done the"walk of shame" too many times. :)

I know, like many of you have said, I need to do some stiff hands on training if I'm going to get her corrected. It's too late this year with hunting season approaching but hopefully this winter in Arizona I can get together with the Pointing Dog Club and work on some things. "bleep" dog has all the breeding and ability in the world and is smart as a whip. Maybe to smart for her own good. She is a good hunter, a heck of a retriever and the sweetest, most loving dog I've ever owned.

For you Brittany guys, here's a link to her pedigree:
https://gundogcentral.com/pedigrees/84414/0/0/5

cjhills
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2296
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:37 am
Location: aitkin,mn

Re: Is It Time to Give Up?

Post by cjhills » Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:03 pm

Personally, I think it is more of a trainer problem than a dog problem. If she handle well for the trainers but not for you she knows she is in charge. I suspect she is ignoring you in her regular interaction with you. It is very easy to miss that or ignore it in a house dog that lives with you all the time. Little things like slow recall, going in an out ahead of you and general manners. Also if she is not steady hunting it is hard to expect her to be steady in a trials. Some dogs will do that.
When you are training in the south in winter you might be able to enter some AKC hunt tests at about half the cost of NSTRA. Senior or master would come close to NSTRA.
You just need more training and distractions. You don't need the exact same setup,
with all the bells and whistles as a NSTRA trial you just need people riding around on four wheelers and other distractions. It will work.
She certainly does not need to be abused. That is not training.......Cj
edit; Just read your latest post. I do get the fun and competition. I just think with a little more work between you and the dog you will be fine. I have had the exact same thinks with several dogs. They all worked out.
Did not realize you were that experienced in NSTRA. I certainly did not intend to offend you or put down NSTRA
Last edited by cjhills on Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Dakotazeb
Rank: 3X Champion
Posts: 572
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2014 1:10 pm
Location: South Dakota / Arizona

Re: Is It Time to Give Up?

Post by Dakotazeb » Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:12 pm

cjhills wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:03 pm
Personally, I think it is more of a trainer problem than a dog problem. If she handle well for the trainers but not for you she knows she is in charge. I suspect she ignoring you in her regular interaction with you. It is very easy to miss that or ignore it in a house dog that lives with you all the time. Little things like slow recall, going in an out ahead of you and general manners. Also if she is not steady hunting it is hard to expect her to be steady in a trial
This is not the case. I am the Alpha and she knows it. She is a very obedient dog and very easy to handle in the field. Also, just a reminder to those of you not familiar with NSTRA. A dog does not have to be steady to WSF. Just until the handler gets there and flushes the bird, then they can release. You see very few dogs in NSTRA that a steady to WSF.

oregon woodsmoke
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 118
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2016 8:11 pm
Location: North Idaho

Re: Is It Time to Give Up?

Post by oregon woodsmoke » Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:57 pm

When I train, first the dog learns the lesson and understands it well. Then we go to the e-collar so we can make sure the dog understands that the command will be followed in the distance.

Then the collar comes off and that is the point where you find out if the dog really actually knows the exercise. Sometimes after the collar comes off, you will need to chase the dog down and apply some reason to remind the dog that the exercise is not optional.

If your trainer only works the dog with the collar, that isn't helping your problem of the dog not working when the collar is off. Your trainers need to work the dog without the collar so the dog has a chance to learn that obedience is not optional and that has nothing to do with the collar.

The dog needs some training at home about working without the collar and that commands are still to be obeyed even without the collar.

The last dog who flipped me off, it was only about the recall, but after being dragged back to where he was called and given a good shake and a scolding, that was the end of disobedience without the collar. After that, it didn't matter what the command was (as long as he understood the command) he knew he had to obey even without the collar.

I don't know what your home relationship is with the dog, but the dog should obey, first command, no matter what it is you are doing inside the house or in your backyard. I often see people give a command 3-4 times before the dog responds. If that is you, knock it off. You want a firmly established habit of obeying you first time every time.

cjhills
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2296
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:37 am
Location: aitkin,mn

Re: Is It Time to Give Up?

Post by cjhills » Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:26 pm

Dakotazeb wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:12 pm
cjhills wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:03 pm
Personally, I think it is more of a trainer problem than a dog problem. If she handle well for the trainers but not for you she knows she is in charge. I suspect she ignoring you in her regular interaction with you. It is very easy to miss that or ignore it in a house dog that lives with you all the time. Little things like slow recall, going in an out ahead of you and general manners. Also if she is not steady hunting it is hard to expect her to be steady in a trial
This is not the case. I am the Alpha and she knows it. She is a very obedient dog and very easy to handle in the field. Also, just a reminder to those of you not familiar with NSTRA. A dog does not have to be steady to WSF. Just until the handler gets there and flushes the bird, then they can release. You see very few dogs in NSTRA that a steady to WSF.
I never knew that. Sorry.
That is a different ballgame. At what point can the dog go and what is the signal for her to go. Does she go on the flush, shot or a command from you. Do you flush and shoot. Does she point and break before you get there or when you go in to flush or just bust birds. DO they allow you to whoa her before the flush. I could see that being more difficult and I know things happen pretty fast in NSTRA.
I think everybody that replied is talking about Steady to WSF.........Cj
Last edited by cjhills on Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
gonehuntin'
GDF Junkie
Posts: 4636
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:38 pm
Location: NE WI.

Re: Is It Time to Give Up?

Post by gonehuntin' » Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:28 pm

" It's too late this year with hunting season approaching". That comment really interests me and I think it shows, or may show, a big problem many have. Train the dog during the year and let it go to heck during hunting season. This is your golden opportunity. You can certainly hunt, but do it without an ecollar. Go out and rough her up if she roads a bird or whatever. Having a well trained dog is an all-the-time-thing. You don't train nine months and relax three. Everyday in the field is an opportunity to finely hone a dog. Don't waste it.

Usually when I saw dog's fall apart in trials (I ran in retriever trials) it was a breakdown in the basics in the dog's daily lives. It was not reinforcing commands in the home because it was too much work. It was letting the small things slide until they became a major problem. The dog is out in the yard playing, we call and it doesn't come. We go back in the house or repeatedly call the dog until it does come. We let the dog bust through the door and run out ahead of us. I'm not going to bore you and detail them all, but it is usually the small things that lead to the major failures.

We had a saying "Train for the ridiculous and the trials become easy". Think about that. Dog likes to creep in on poor flying birds? Put some clip wings in a field and let the dog find and point a walking bird. If it tries to catch the bird, get em'. Walk the dog at heel through a yard of walking pigeons (clip wing). Tempt and challenge the dog. Most are afraid to challenge their dog, but when you do, you end up with a well trained dog.

Dakotazeb
Rank: 3X Champion
Posts: 572
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2014 1:10 pm
Location: South Dakota / Arizona

Re: Is It Time to Give Up?

Post by Dakotazeb » Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:56 am

[/quote]
I never knew that. Sorry.
That is a different ballgame. At what point can the dog go and what is the signal for her to go. Does she go on the flush, shot or a command from you. Do you flush and shoot. Does she point and break before you get there or when you go in to flush or just bust birds. DO they allow you to whoa her before the flush. I could see that being more difficult and I know things happen pretty fast in NSTRA.
I think everybody that replied is talking about Steady to WSF.........Cj
[/quote]

In NSTRA when a dog goes on point it must remain steady until the handler flushes or moves the bird from it's resting place. Any steps or movement by the dog prior to that is a deduction in points. Yes, you can Whoa the dog before you get there to flush. No deduction for talking to your dog as long as you aren't hacking on it and the dog is doing what you are asking it to do. In NSTRA most dogs will break on the flush and that's fine as long as they are steady to that point. The problem I have with Bree is that she will go on point and then rush in and take the bird out before I get there. Not all the time but she can't do that at all. Lots of times she is steady as a rock until the flush and looks like a million bucks. Sometimes that point is 200-300 yards out and since you can't run in NSTRA it can take some time to get to the dog. That's when she is likely to scoop the bird. Then she comes running back to me with the retrieve and by then it's not the time for correction. I love this dog but she sure has been a challenge at times.

Dakotazeb
Rank: 3X Champion
Posts: 572
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2014 1:10 pm
Location: South Dakota / Arizona

Re: Is It Time to Give Up?

Post by Dakotazeb » Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:01 am

gonehuntin' wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:28 pm
" It's too late this year with hunting season approaching". That comment really interests me and I think it shows, or may show, a big problem many have. Train the dog during the year and let it go to heck during hunting season. This is your golden opportunity. You can certainly hunt, but do it without an ecollar. Go out and rough her up if she roads a bird or whatever. Having a well trained dog is an all-the-time-thing. You don't train nine months and relax three. Everyday in the field is an opportunity to finely hone a dog. Don't waste it.

Usually when I saw dog's fall apart in trials (I ran in retriever trials) it was a breakdown in the basics in the dog's daily lives. It was not reinforcing commands in the home because it was too much work. It was letting the small things slide until they became a major problem. The dog is out in the yard playing, we call and it doesn't come. We go back in the house or repeatedly call the dog until it does come. We let the dog bust through the door and run out ahead of us. I'm not going to bore you and detail them all, but it is usually the small things that lead to the major failures.

We had a saying "Train for the ridiculous and the trials become easy". Think about that. Dog likes to creep in on poor flying birds? Put some clip wings in a field and let the dog find and point a walking bird. If it tries to catch the bird, get em'. Walk the dog at heel through a yard of walking pigeons (clip wing). Tempt and challenge the dog. Most are afraid to challenge their dog, but when you do, you end up with a well trained dog.
When I said too late for training with hunting season approaching I was referring to any structured formal training. I work with my dog every time in the field whether it's hunting season or not. I agree, training is an all the time thing. It's probably her "over the top" prey drive that is causing all the problem. Her drive to get those birds is unreal.

shags
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2582
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:57 pm

Re: Is It Time to Give Up?

Post by shags » Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:21 am

Sometimes that point is 200-300 yards out and since you can't run in NSTRA it can take some time to get to the dog. That's when she is likely to scoop the bird.

Have you worked on that in training by making her wait? Lots of times in training it's dog points and handler gets right on the flush. But that doesn't make an over-the-hill broke dog. Try dawdling, have a swig of water, retie your bootlace, look for kittens in the clouds, whatever you can think of to make your go sloooow in for the flush. We used to make set ups where we could see the dog on point but it couldn't see us, while we meandered over to them so as to proof them.

Dakotazeb
Rank: 3X Champion
Posts: 572
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2014 1:10 pm
Location: South Dakota / Arizona

Re: Is It Time to Give Up?

Post by Dakotazeb » Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:24 am

shags wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:21 am
Sometimes that point is 200-300 yards out and since you can't run in NSTRA it can take some time to get to the dog. That's when she is likely to scoop the bird.

Have you worked on that in training by making her wait? Lots of times in training it's dog points and handler gets right on the flush. But that doesn't make an over-the-hill broke dog. Try dawdling, have a swig of water, retie your bootlace, look for kittens in the clouds, whatever you can think of to make your go sloooow in for the flush. We used to make set ups where we could see the dog on point but it couldn't see us, while we meandered over to them so as to proof them.
We've done it all.

cjhills
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2296
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:37 am
Location: aitkin,mn

Re: Is It Time to Give Up?

Post by cjhills » Sun Sep 13, 2020 1:00 pm

Maybe if you had a very solid whoa you could use that when she is on point. AKC hunt tests may help where she has to be sent on the retrieve. You can quietly caution a dog on point in a master test. Train her steady and then let her back slide. That is how we train all dogs whose owners want the dog to go on flush or shot. You could use some sort of retrieve command, like a hand signal or verbal when you flush so she goes on your command and not on the bird flushing.
She sounds like a great dog to me......Cj

User avatar
OhioVizsla
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 108
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 1:53 pm
Location: Northern Ohio

Re: Is It Time to Give Up?

Post by OhioVizsla » Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:13 am

I wouldn't give up, sounds like a great dog. I would train her to be steady to wing & shot. This will stop her from going in on the point.

weimdogman
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 156
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:02 am
Location: brookings s.dak.

Re: Is It Time to Give Up?

Post by weimdogman » Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:43 am

OhioVizsla wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:13 am
I wouldn't give up, sounds like a great dog. I would train her to be steady to wing & shot. This will stop her from going in on the point.
This is some solid advice. Training with a navhda group will expose the pup to more of a "event" setting.

Dakotazeb
Rank: 3X Champion
Posts: 572
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2014 1:10 pm
Location: South Dakota / Arizona

Re: Is It Time to Give Up?

Post by Dakotazeb » Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:40 am

OhioVizsla wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:13 am
I wouldn't give up, sounds like a great dog. I would train her to be steady to wing & shot. This will stop her from going in on the point.
She has been trained to be steady to WSF but take her to a trial and all the training goes out the window.

User avatar
OhioVizsla
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 108
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 1:53 pm
Location: Northern Ohio

Re: Is It Time to Give Up?

Post by OhioVizsla » Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:28 pm

You've got to set her up. When we train, we set up the dogs to fail....so you we correct them. Are you running in a brace when you train? If your dog is steady to wing & shot, brace with a dog that isn't. Let the other dog find the birds & bring your's in for a back. The first couple of times give her a whoa. Don't hold her. If she breaks, correct her with the collar. Say nothing after the first few times. If she breaks when the other dog breaks for the retrieve, just hold the button until she stops chasing. They learn fast. If she gets collar wise, run her without one. Clip a checkcord on her while she's backing. Give her plenty of slack and flip her when she hits the end..... Give her plenty of praise when she does good.

Have the other handler make a lot of noise and commotion to try to make your dog break....

Try it with multiple bracemates. The more pressure, the better.

Finally, don't shoot every bird the dog points when you're training alone. Run the dog on homers & pop boxes and blank the birds. Mix in a shooter to keep her guessing.

User avatar
Sharon
GDF Junkie
Posts: 8510
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 4:46 pm
Location: Ontario,Canada

Re: Is It Time to Give Up?

Post by Sharon » Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:52 pm

Don't give up! That dog has tremendous skills. Keep working with the trainer. If it is not ready for hunting this Fall, so be it. There are many Falls ahead - Lord willing.
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

mask
Rank: 3X Champion
Posts: 528
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Idaho

Re: Is It Time to Give Up?

Post by mask » Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:13 pm

PM sent with a couple of questions.

User avatar
greg jacobs
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 861
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:04 am
Location: selah washington

Re: Is It Time to Give Up?

Post by greg jacobs » Sat Sep 26, 2020 2:38 pm

Dakotazeb wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:56 am
Thanks for all the responses. To answer one of the questions about being a NSTRA champion. No, she doesn't need to get her championship. But she has the ability if I can get this problem resolved. I don't run NSTRA to champion a dog, I do it because I enjoy it and so does my dog. I've been involved in NSTRA for over 10 years and have made a lot of good friends. I enjoy seeing them and being around them and their dogs. I just want my dog to be competitive and run a good brace. If she gets a placement every now and then that's just gravy. But getting DQ'd every other brace is too frustrating and not much fun. I've done the"walk of shame" too many times. :)

I know, like many of you have said, I need to do some stiff hands on training if I'm going to get her corrected. It's too late this year with hunting season approaching but hopefully this winter in Arizona I can get together with the Pointing Dog Club and work on some things. "bleep" dog has all the breeding and ability in the world and is smart as a whip. Maybe to smart for her own good. She is a good hunter, a heck of a retriever and the sweetest, most loving dog I've ever owned.

For you Brittany guys, here's a link to her pedigree:
https://gundogcentral.com/pedigrees/84414/0/0/5
The smartest ones with huge drive can be a major pain. Have one like that. Smartest dog I've ever had. Smart and biddable can be polar opposites. Don't know what the solution is. She THINKS
way to much. Not a trustworthy dog.

The other just runs on instinct and is incredibly easy. Hunt all day and never say a word.

If you figure it out let me know.

Post Reply