AKC Hunter titles: JH/SH/MH

Mosby · Post by **Mosby** » Fri Dec 17, 2021 8:38 pm

I am thinking about getting a new Vizsla pup and was looking at some pedigrees last night and saw an upcoming litter with a dam with a really strong field trial pedigree and the sire with a strong European bloodline with a number of titled dogs with both show and AKC hunter titles, ie; JH/SH etc.

Do those hunter titles translate well to hunting? This breeder/kennel is striving for both field trial and confirmation and they clearly like the sire but I tend to error on the side of caution and going into this, was thinking I wanted a pup with a strong field trial pedigree on both sides.

That said, I have a lot to learn about dogs and pedigrees and I am ignorant to these types of hunt tests. I always try to get pups from well established breeders with a good track record for dogs and the kennels I am looking at have outstanding reputations, so I keep reminding myself to trust the breeder and the pup should be great.

That said, I thought I would see what other opinions are on these hunt test titles and how they translate to hunting ability and maybe I will learn something in the process.

deseeker · Post by **deseeker** » Fri Dec 17, 2021 9:57 pm

In an AKC Junior title, the dog has to point at least 50% of it's birds. It can be a flash point(around a 3 sec point) and then take the bird out on it's own(doesn't have to wait for the handler to kick it up). It doesn't have to back another dog. It doesn't have to retrieve the bird. It doesn't have to stop to flush on a wild flushing bird.

An AKC Senior title. The dog has to point it's bird and let his handler kick the bird up (It has to stay until the gun is fired before leaving on the retrieve)
It's retrieve must be within a step or two of the handler.The bird should not have any dog damage done to it. It can be whoa'd into a back after seeing the pointed dog.(it can be collared after it's back to prevent interfering with it's bracemate;s retrieve) It can be whoa'd into a stop to flush on a wild flushing bird. It needs to handle fairly well. It should hunt likely bird areas in a fast pleasing manner.(it shouldn't putter around). It should work well with it;s brace mate. It should be fairly intense on point. It has to handle ALL it's bird contacts properly or it will not receive a passing score.

An AKC Master Title is a finished dog. It has to point it's birds and stay put during the flush. It needs to stand the flushed bird during shot & fall, until it is sent for the retrieve. The retrievee should be promt & directly to hand(no dog damage to bird). It needs to stop to flush on wild flushing birds on it's own(no whoa command) until released. It must back it's bracemate on it's own with no whoa command. It needs to stand thruout the other dogs retrieve until the other handler has the bird(no collaring the dog). It must handle with a minumum of comands in a fast effient manner. It's point should be solid and intense. It has to handle ALL bird contacts properly, if it doesn't it does not receive a passing score. It should work well with it's bracemate.

Senior & Master dogs make very good hunting dogs. Junior dogs will find birds but are basic hunters and need more work to move past being a meat dog into a higher class of hunting dog.JMO on that one

A note on field trial dogs-- Brittanys do not need to retrieve to become AKC field champions--birds are blank gunned in their stakes(so you have to ask if an AKC FC or AKC AFC britt retrieves)
Shorthairs, Vizslas, Weims, and Wirehairs have to win a retrieving stake to become an AKC FC or AKC AFC(so they will retrieve birds)

I edited out my Vizsla mistake on FC retreiving-- OOPS

Mosby · Post by **Mosby** » Fri Dec 17, 2021 11:05 pm

Deseeker,

You are a wealth of knowledge. I really appreciate the information. I know some guys that go through a few dogs before they find one they keep but that is never an option with my wife. Whatever I bring home falls under her protection, so I always have a lot to think about before I bring a pup home. If I choose poorly, I am stuck with it.

shags · Post by **shags** » Sat Dec 18, 2021 5:59 am

Mosby,
Many of the V breeders I know work hard at producing dual dogs. There's a good chance that a pup from a litter as described would be a decent bird dog.
Depending where you are, you might find a few hunt tests locally to view for yourself. You can find them on the AKC website.
Be careful though, you might get bitten by the bug and find yourself a new activity

A small correction to Deseeker's post - Vs are required to retrieve in order to gain a field championship. They need 4 points from retrieve stakes, just like GSPs, GWPs, and Weims.
Good luck in your search for the pup that's perfect for you.

Mosby · Post by **Mosby** » Sat Dec 18, 2021 8:46 am

Shags,

Dual dogs are important to the V kennels I have been looking at and they only have one or two litters a year with a long waiting list, so I have to make a relatively quick decision to take one or wait another year or so. Kicking the can down the road probably won't make the process any easier or get me a better pup so I am trying to get comfortable with my current options. Thank you for the additional information.

Now that I am retired, I have been looking at event calendars and I am going to try to go to different field events for something to do and watch dogs work for the fun of it.

deseeker · Post by **deseeker** » Sat Dec 18, 2021 9:58 am

Mosby--
Lin Kozlowski(sp) usually runs a vizsla club hunt test at Lee Summit not too far from you. Also one of the shorthair clubs down there usually runs a hunt test within about 75 miles of KC. The event search on the AKC website will help you find dog events in your area. The Vizsla club of Nebraska usually runs a Spring & a Fall Hunt test at Branched Oak by Lincoln, NE Good luck getting you viz pup

weimdogman · Post by **weimdogman** » Sat Dec 18, 2021 10:22 am

All I can add is MH dogs can hunt. They prove it multiple times to achieve that title. As others have said dog also has to prove it also can work with a bracemate. Some breeds ,like my weims,also have to prove they will water retrieve. Judges may get a little lax with the SH dogs but the MH dogs have to get it right.

Navhda dogs with UT titles are capable hunters. VC dogs are something to brag about

Mosby · Post by **Mosby** » Sat Dec 18, 2021 1:40 pm

I appreciate the feedback. I am a lot more comfortable now with hunt test titles and what I am looking at and will pull the trigger on a pup.

I just had some surgery this week and have a face full of stitches, so I have too much time on my hands right now. The surgery forced me to cancel a hunting trip to SD and I am not supposed to expose my face to really cold weather for a while so I am stuck inside for the next few weeks. It is giving me time though to figure this out and to look up outdoor shows and events for next year, so I am getting something done. I will get on the AKC website and see what is coming up. Thanks!

fishvik · Post by **fishvik** » Sat Dec 18, 2021 3:00 pm

What are your intentions for your new dog? Hunting, trialing, bench, breeding potential. If you just want a hunter, personally, I like the NAVDA hunt testing better than the AKC testing.. I would rather see a success in a Utility or Invitational test in the dogs lineage. I think there is far less politics involved and the test is more like what a hunting situation produces, including handling water and water retrieves. Even if not a dog used for waterfowl hunting, I've knocked down a lot of roosters and other upland birds across or in a body of water and I was glad I had a dog that could handle water retrieves

deseeker · Post by **deseeker** » Sat Dec 18, 2021 4:08 pm

About a 1/3 of the AKC hunt tests will also offer a water test. It is a pretty simple test. A dead duck is thrown out about 15 to 20 yards out into a pond with a shot fired. The handler and his dog are standing on the shore about 5 to 10 yards from the water(water has to be deep enough that the dog has to swim to get the bird). The dog is sent for the retrieve and must bring the bird ALL the way back to the handler standing back 5 to 10 yards from the pond's edge(he can't just drop it at the edge of the pond but retrieve it to the handler--handler can NOT walk up to water's edge to get the bird from the dog. You have to ask the hunt test handler if their dog has a pass in a water test because AKC does not show it on the dog's title. It is a very basic test that just shows the dog will retreive a dead bird out of the water back to his handler.

Mosby · Post by **Mosby** » Sat Dec 18, 2021 4:56 pm

I am looking for just a hunting dog. That said, I haven't been to NAVDA or AKC hunt tests before, in part because of time. Now that I am formally retired I might revisit that and go to some events and check it out. I have been to some field trials but not for several years. I had a Vizsla that was a big runner and she could have done well in ft but I didn't have the time and my wife didn't want to spend the money.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Sat Dec 18, 2021 7:42 pm

Mosby -

I do some field trials and have seen(and been beaten) by some pretty nice V's, over the years.
As far as hunt tests are concerned... this is my take:

A Junior Hunter pass or title is baseline, as far as demonstrated ability is concerned. A Junior Hunter capable dog is the bare minimum, in terms of training, that I personally would take to the field to hunt...and that is borderline. I think some show folks think that putting a JH on a dog is a bidf deal. I do not.

A Senior Hunter capable dog will be a pretty solid hunting companion, and do everything you will need in the field.

A Master Hunter capable dog will have more polish and manners than a senior dog, but a fair number of the ones i have seen are a bit too mechanical for my taste. To me the difference between senior and master is largely a matter of obedience. If you see a Master hunter that hunts with joy and independence, THAT is almost certainly a dog with the mental balance and resilience to take serious training and not lose its desire.

Them's the genes you want.

I do horseback field trials with my dogs, so Hunt Test dogs tend to operate at ranges which I find too close, but hunt tests do approximate ranges which much more closely reflect what your typical hunter has in mind. Field trial dogs do tend to have more independence and "attitude" than most hunters are willing to work with, but since you tend to "lose a little" in any breeding, there may well be a pup or two out of even a high bred litter that will suit the average hunter.

One observation regarding retrieving ability. Pointing breeds are NOT going to do water retrieves like Labs or Chesapeakes. However, just about any breed of pointing dog will do a decent job of retrieving birds in the upland, because a good bird dog lives and breathes to wrap its gums around a bird. I have also seen plenty of Navhda versatiles that flat out "love" the water.

In AF field trials, pointers are never asked to retrieve, because game is never shot during a trial. I , and many other trialers, actually do not train a young dog to retrieve, because if the dog is steady through wing , shot and fall and can then be heeled off and cast off in a new direction, that dog will be much, much less likely to break discipline at a trial. I have been running pointers(longtail variety) for a very long time and have NEVER had a dog that would NOT retrieve. I hunt all my dogs, so, they all do get asked to retrieve during hunts. Some were better than others, for sure, but they all got it done. FWIW, when a trial dog begins to get "stale" on planted birds and the fake setups that are sometimes found at trials, allowing that dog to retrieve a few birds, on command, can often rekindle the fire.

RayG

Mosby · Post by **Mosby** » Sat Dec 18, 2021 9:55 pm

RayG.

The vizsla I lost to cancer liked to range out and cover some ground and I got comfortable with that. She was all ft stock. This litter seems to have a combination of field trial, dual champions and MH titles with some European thrown in going back a few generations in the line. I should be able to get a hunting dog of it. I am starting to think that it would be easier to find a good GSP or Brittany than a good Vizsla but I still miss my girl and I got a hole I need to try and fill. Thanks.

Steve007 · Post by **Steve007** » Sun Dec 19, 2021 11:26 am

Mosby wrote: ↑
Fri Dec 17, 2021 8:38 pm
That said, I have a lot to learn about dogs and pedigrees and I am ignorant to these types of hunt tests. I always try to get pups from well established breeders with a good track record for dogs and the kennels I am looking at have outstanding reputations, so I keep reminding myself to trust the breeder and the pup should be great.

That said, I thought I would see what other opinions are on these hunt test titles and how they translate to hunting ability and maybe I will learn something in the process.

Go to the AKC site. They have very good videos on each of these titles, indicating what the dog has to do and showing examples of both qualifying and nonqualifying scores in each of the individual exercises.

These titles (possibly not JH, which is pretty basic) translate very well to bird hunting and it does require five qualifying performances to get the titles, so it does indicate that these are solid dogs levels. I have had a dog with both FC and MH titles (same dog) , but for normal bird hunting purposes, the hunt tests definitely translate better to foot hunting ability.

If you are dealing with a good breeder, he will guide you through these and explain what they are.

weimdogman · Post by **weimdogman** » Sun Dec 19, 2021 12:31 pm

There are plenty of good Vizslas in the navhda game.

Mosby · Post by **Mosby** » Mon Dec 20, 2021 7:58 pm

weimdogman wrote: ↑
Sun Dec 19, 2021 12:31 pm
There are plenty of good Vizslas in the navhda game.

Over the last year and a half, I have called or emailed a number of different breeders and filtered through them as best I could. I wasn't in a hurry. Some said they don't have any planned litters, some don't return phone calls and a few were great to speak with and honest about what was coming up or not. The good news is I found some quality breeders I didn't previously know about, that I would buy a pup from in the future and a couple breeders that have great dogs that I won't waste my time with going forward. Maybe it's me but the process to find a quality litter seemed a bit harder that it should have been but you live and learn. It could have been bad timing with Covid and people working from home, inundating breeders too.

That said, I have a $100 down on a pup I can pick up in February and will post some pics after I pick him up. If I do my part, he should be great. Thanks.

RyanDoolittle · Post by **RyanDoolittle** » Wed Dec 22, 2021 1:01 am

I wouldn't put Lot of weight ok events where dogs point fancy chickens stuffed in a bush.

If you want a dog that can hunt then find a dog that trains on wild birds and wins on wild birds.

RyanDoolittle · Post by **RyanDoolittle** » Wed Dec 22, 2021 1:04 am

I wouldn't put alot of weight on events where dogs point fancy chickens stuffed in a bush.

If you want a dog that can hunt, then find a dog that trains on wild birds and wins on wild birds. Or better yet, buy a started dog. Puppies are cute, puppies are fun, however it's a crap shoot on what your getting. If you want to take the risk out of it the buy an 18 month or 2 year old dog that has spent a couple summers on the prairie. The dogs that will win are going to be expensive, the ones that won't make the cut because of range or style will be less money.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Wed Dec 22, 2021 6:37 am

Mosby:
In am a bit late to the party.
In have to disagree a little bit with puppies being a crap shoot. If you buy a puppy from parents that are bred to do what you like you will very likely get puppy that will do what you like. that is about as sure as anything you will ever do. it will be up to you to bring out the talent, but it will be there.
I am not a big fan of titles, because so much is training. They do show that the dog can handle the discipline. For a dog to hunt with I like the MH because it is more what hunting is about. Very little of what an AA dog needs to do is of value to a foot hunter, not saying an AA dog can't hunt. Some are great personal bird dogs. But Gun Dog is probably better choice.
With the experience and knowledge that you have my bet is that you will end up with a very good dog......Cj

Mosby · Post by **Mosby** » Wed Dec 22, 2021 10:36 am

RyanDoolittle wrote: ↑
Wed Dec 22, 2021 1:04 am
I wouldn't put alot of weight on events where dogs point fancy chickens stuffed in a bush.

If you want a dog that can hunt, then find a dog that trains on wild birds and wins on wild birds. Or better yet, buy a started dog. Puppies are cute, puppies are fun, however it's a crap shoot on what your getting. If you want to take the risk out of it the buy an 18 month or 2 year old dog that has spent a couple summers on the prairie. The dogs that will win are going to be expensive, the ones that won't make the cut because of range or style will be less money.

I bought a started GSP last year. I agree....there is a lot of value in being able to hunt over a dog before buying. Now that I am formally retired, I have time I never did to work with a young dog and decided I wanted the challenge of a pup to work with. I have a lot of trips to Iowa and South Dakota in my near future....hopefully.

Mosby · Post by **Mosby** » Wed Dec 22, 2021 11:03 am

cjhills wrote: ↑
Wed Dec 22, 2021 6:37 am
Mosby:
In am a bit late to the party.
In have to disagree a little bit with puppies being a crap shoot. If you buy a puppy from parents that are bred to do what you like you will very likely get puppy that will do what you like. that is about as sure as anything you will ever do. it will be up to you to bring out the talent, but it will be there.
I am not a big fan of titles, because so much is training. They do show that the dog can handle the discipline. For a dog to hunt with I like the MH because it is more what hunting is about. Very little of what an AA dog needs to do is of value to a foot hunter, not saying an AA dog can't hunt. Some are great personal bird dogs. But Gun Dog is probably better choice.
With the experience and knowledge that you have my bet is that you will end up with a very good dog......Cj

CJ,

The training was the biggest eye opener for me. I have been doing a lot of reading, research and talking with breeders and trainers over the last year. Clearly, some dogs are better than others but the guys that consistently win titles are winning more because they have a consistent training program for their dogs and they work with their dogs daily and weekly(that and some guys go through more dogs than others finding what they are looking for).
They get or have good dogs but they max the dogs potential. My dad was a coach. He is in his state and college HOF. Some of my friends are coaches and the fact is, they could take 10 kids and make them all good. Some kids have more natural talent and will be better than others and win state and national titles but they all will compete at a high level because of the way they are trained and coached. I realized that hunting dogs really aren't much different than kids. Athletes are athletes to a certain point.

When looking for a pup, I was hoping the kennel lines and titles would indicate a certain level of natural ability in the lines and to some degree would get passed along. Hoping that a pup with more natural ability is easier to train. After that, I think training and time will dictate where the dog ends up....at least that is my new theory and I'm sticking to it until I fail miserably. Thanks.

RyanDoolittle · Post by **RyanDoolittle** » Wed Dec 22, 2021 7:05 pm

cjhills wrote: ↑
Wed Dec 22, 2021 6:37 am
Mosby:
In am a bit late to the party.
In have to disagree a little bit with puppies being a crap shoot. If you buy a puppy from parents that are bred to do what you like you will very likely get puppy that will do what you like. that is about as sure as anything you will ever do. it will be up to you to bring out the talent, but it will be there.
I am not a big fan of titles, because so much is training. They do show that the dog can handle the discipline. For a dog to hunt with I like the MH because it is more what hunting is about. Very little of what an AA dog needs to do is of value to a foot hunter, not saying an AA dog can't hunt. Some are great personal bird dogs. But Gun Dog is probably better choice.
With the experience and knowledge that you have my bet is that you will end up with a very good dog......Cj

The lower your standards, the easier it is to find a dog to suit them.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Thu Dec 23, 2021 2:36 pm

Mosby-

Couple of things...

As you observed, titles indicate both a level of innate talent AND an level of trainabilty.

While it is true that many judged events, be they field trials or hunt tests, are staged events run on planted birds, it is also true that these events are judged by relatively impartial arbiters and so their decisions are much more likely to ba an honest assessment of the ability that the dog demonstrated.

A dog that performs well in the crucible of competition, with all of its additional distractions and pressures, including horses, strange bracemates, crappy flying birds, strange observers, etc., is demonstrating a lot of very desirable attributes.

Lastly...NOBODY...and I do mean NOBODY...trains competitive dogs exclusively on wild birds any more. You simply cannot, becasue the birds are simply not available insufficient quantity. Even the pros that take all age dogs to the prairies use pigeons and throw down birds. Grouse dog pros do also...at least the ones I am familiar with.

I have seen a fair number of dogs trained on pigeons and released birds make adjustments and do just fine on wild birds. Obviously, the more experience a dog gets on hunting for wild birds...the more successful they will be at it. Wild birds simply do not put up with the things a dog can get away with on planted birds, so the dog has to figure that out. Most do.

I have NEVER seen a dog that was trained on pigeons and planted birds, that was not able to make the transition to wild birds eventually. As I said, some will be better than others, but that is true, no matter what aspect we consider.

If you start with a pup from quailty breeding, whose parents and grandparents do the kinds of things you want the pup to do when it grows up... you will probably be just fine.

RayG

Post by **slistoe** » Thu Dec 23, 2021 3:09 pm

RayGubernat wrote: ↑
Thu Dec 23, 2021 2:36 pm

I have NEVER seen a dog that was trained on pigeons and planted birds, that was not able to make the transition to wild birds eventually. As I said, some will be better than others, but that is true, no matter what aspect we consider.

RayG

Dogs that have been trained to a high standard and want to do it right will make the transition to wild birds quite readily. I cannot say I have seen the same thing from dogs with only wild bird experience being put into a throw down bird scenario. Even if pros have access to sufficient wild birds to fully train a bird dog they will probably use some form of throw down birds because it is likely the dog will need to have that skillset.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Thu Dec 23, 2021 6:07 pm

RyanDoolittle wrote: ↑
Wed Dec 22, 2021 7:05 pm

cjhills wrote: ↑
Wed Dec 22, 2021 6:37 am
Mosby:
In am a bit late to the party.
In have to disagree a little bit with puppies being a crap shoot. If you buy a puppy from parents that are bred to do what you like you will very likely get puppy that will do what you like. that is about as sure as anything you will ever do. it will be up to you to bring out the talent, but it will be there.
I am not a big fan of titles, because so much is training. They do show that the dog can handle the discipline. For a dog to hunt with I like the MH because it is more what hunting is about. Very little of what an AA dog needs to do is of value to a foot hunter, not saying an AA dog can't hunt. Some are great personal bird dogs. But Gun Dog is probably better choice.
With the experience and knowledge that you have my bet is that you will end up with a very good dog......Cj
The lower your standards, the easier it is to find a dog to suit them.

Not quite sure what you mean by that.
The level of standards is in the eye of the beholder. I am pretty sure my standards are at least equal to yours or anybody else's on here. I have seen some fairly good trial dogs that were trained on fancy chickens. In fact, quite a few FCs got their titles on fancy chickens. I don't do AF field trials because of the expense and the fact that they are not how I want my dogs to hunt. A gun dog that don't need to retrieve makes no sense to me. Also, I don't want horses anymore.
I doubt there is anybody who wins anything that totally trains on wild birds.
Most of my young dogs are solid on pigeons before they go to wild birds. All know the difference and all handle both. It is the same as changing wild species.......Cj

RyanDoolittle · Post by **RyanDoolittle** » Thu Dec 23, 2021 9:59 pm

cjhills wrote: ↑
Thu Dec 23, 2021 6:07 pm

RyanDoolittle wrote: ↑
Wed Dec 22, 2021 7:05 pm

cjhills wrote: ↑
Wed Dec 22, 2021 6:37 am
Mosby:
In am a bit late to the party.
In have to disagree a little bit with puppies being a crap shoot. If you buy a puppy from parents that are bred to do what you like you will very likely get puppy that will do what you like. that is about as sure as anything you will ever do. it will be up to you to bring out the talent, but it will be there.
I am not a big fan of titles, because so much is training. They do show that the dog can handle the discipline. For a dog to hunt with I like the MH because it is more what hunting is about. Very little of what an AA dog needs to do is of value to a foot hunter, not saying an AA dog can't hunt. Some are great personal bird dogs. But Gun Dog is probably better choice.
With the experience and knowledge that you have my bet is that you will end up with a very good dog......Cj
The lower your standards, the easier it is to find a dog to suit them.
Not quite sure what you mean by that.
The level of standards is in the eye of the beholder. I am pretty sure my standards are at least equal to yours or anybody else's on here. I have seen some fairly good trial dogs that were trained on fancy chickens. In fact, quite a few FCs got their titles on fancy chickens. I don't do AF field trials because of the expense and the fact that they are not how I want my dogs to hunt. A gun dog that don't need to retrieve makes no sense to me. Also, I don't want horses anymore.
I doubt there is anybody who wins anything that totally trains on wild birds.
Most of my young dogs are solid on pigeons before they go to wild birds. All know the difference and all handle both. It is the same as changing wild species.......Cj

I was referring to your puppies aren't a crap shoot comment.

The higher your standard for a dog the less likely a puppy is going to fill that standard.

If all you want is a dog to point and retrieve, you can buy one of those at any pound. They are a dime a dozen. So yes pretty well any puppy will do.

The higher your standards, the less likely a puppy is to fill them.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Fri Dec 24, 2021 7:52 am

An AA FC title in a pup's pedigree would not rule him out for me, but for many it would. They sell for half what a well bred MH or NAVHDA Pup sells for.
Most family pet/hunting dog foot hunters have no use for 400 yd dog..........Cj

Mosby · Post by **Mosby** » Fri Dec 24, 2021 9:18 am

I went back and looked at the pups pedigree fwiw. The pup I am getting has 6 SH and 5 JH titles on the sire side going back 4 gen with a number of dual AKC show champions. There is also a strong European line on the sire side with European titles I am not familiar with. The dam side has a large number of FC's including some with DC, SH, MH or NAVHDA titles. Hopefully I will get a pup somewhere between a dud and a 400 yd dog....

He will also need to take naps with the old man and watch football games...but that seems to be a trait breed into all Vizslas.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Fri Dec 24, 2021 2:06 pm

Mosby:

Many show breeders get JH and SH titles on their dogs. Visla breeders like to do that. Not sure why
Most Vislas I have known were not big on football but were great at napping. Some were talented bird dogs. They seemed to get very attached to their trainers......Cj

Garrison · Post by **Garrison** » Fri Dec 24, 2021 2:40 pm

cjhills wrote: ↑
Fri Dec 24, 2021 2:06 pm
Mosby:

Many show breeders get JH and SH titles on their dogs. Visla breeders like to do that. Not sure why
Most Vislas I have known were not big on football but were great at napping. Some were talented bird dogs. They seemed to get very attached to their trainers......Cj

CJ,
I have noticed the same. I have also noticed the amazingly high cost of entry for a pup, as well as the fact A LOT of V’s seem to go to first time bird dog owners. They also seem to be pretty fashionable in Southern California, especially the beach community. While I am hard pressed to find anyone who knows what a setter is anytime my dog is in public. I know a trainer who seemed to always have some of the dogs you described around to help float his trialing expenses.

I have also seen some of his V’s which were bred to be and were pretty hardcore bird dogs.

Garrison

Garrison · Post by **Garrison** » Fri Dec 24, 2021 3:13 pm

RyanDoolittle wrote: ↑
Wed Dec 22, 2021 7:05 pm

cjhills wrote: ↑
Wed Dec 22, 2021 6:37 am
Mosby:
In am a bit late to the party.
In have to disagree a little bit with puppies being a crap shoot. If you buy a puppy from parents that are bred to do what you like you will very likely get puppy that will do what you like. that is about as sure as anything you will ever do. it will be up to you to bring out the talent, but it will be there.
I am not a big fan of titles, because so much is training. They do show that the dog can handle the discipline. For a dog to hunt with I like the MH because it is more what hunting is about. Very little of what an AA dog needs to do is of value to a foot hunter, not saying an AA dog can't hunt. Some are great personal bird dogs. But Gun Dog is probably better choice.
With the experience and knowledge that you have my bet is that you will end up with a very good dog......Cj
The lower your standards, the easier it is to find a dog to suit them.

We have also had more than a few folks frequent the board who felt their standards were the only of any value, their targeted game the hardest to handle, their terrain the toughest on a dog, their breed of choice the only worth mentioning, their training skills the only way to do it, and of course their game the only worth playing.

Oddly enough, they were the same folks who seemed to have a revolving door for dogs “that just didn’t fit their program” and derived little success nor happiness from their chosen pursuit.

Garrison

Mosby · Post by **Mosby** » Fri Dec 24, 2021 3:49 pm

Garrison wrote: ↑
Fri Dec 24, 2021 2:40 pm

cjhills wrote: ↑
Fri Dec 24, 2021 2:06 pm
Mosby:

Many show breeders get JH and SH titles on their dogs. Visla breeders like to do that. Not sure why
Most Vislas I have known were not big on football but were great at napping. Some were talented bird dogs. They seemed to get very attached to their trainers......Cj
CJ,
I have noticed the same. I have also noticed the amazingly high cost of entry for a pup, as well as the fact A LOT of V’s seem to go to first time bird dog owners. They also seem to be pretty fashionable in Southern California, especially the beach community. While I am hard pressed to find anyone who knows what a setter is anytime my dog is in public. I know a trainer who seemed to always have some of the dogs you described around to help float his trialing expenses.

I have also seen some of his V’s which were bred to be and were pretty hardcore bird dogs.

Garrison

Unfortunately, Vizsla's have seemingly become popular with non hunting folks. Dana Perino writing a book about her dog Jasper didn't help. I take a lack of popularity as a positive. My first hunting dog was an English Setter. He was a sweet heart. My goal is to get a pup that I can develop into a hard core hunting dog. Hopefully I choose wisely.

Mosby · Post by **Mosby** » Fri Dec 24, 2021 4:19 pm

cjhills wrote: ↑
Fri Dec 24, 2021 2:06 pm
Mosby:

Many show breeders get JH and SH titles on their dogs. Visla breeders like to do that. Not sure why
Most Vislas I have known were not big on football but were great at napping. Some were talented bird dogs. They seemed to get very attached to their trainers......Cj

Cj,

You are correct about Vizsla show breeders and titles. I noticed that too.

oregon woodsmoke · Post by **oregon woodsmoke** » Fri Dec 24, 2021 4:51 pm

The AKC titles show that the dog is capable of learning the basic activities that a bird dog will need to do and is capable of performing them under a bit of pressure.. For most hunters, if the dog points and fetches, that meets their hunting needs.

If you want to enter the horse mounted field trials, then I suggest you buy a dog from those specialized lines. Otherwise, a nicely bred dog who has several ancestors who have shown they can point and fetch should be able to do what you want a gun dog to do and should be able to learn it without too much trouble.

A pedigree full of AKC hunt titles beats a pedigree with no performance titles of any kind. That pedigree also beats the pedigree that has no titles but had a breeder that assures you the dog will hunt. At a minimum, the AKC titles shows the dog's ancestors can perform the activities in public, being evaluated by an independent qualified judge.

My opinion is that if you want to put enough work into it, you can train darn near any breed of dog to find birds for you and bring them back to you. The reason to buy a pup with hunt titles in the pedigree is that dog is most likely going to be a lot easier to train to perform because he will have bred-in bird dog instinct that will make the training a lot easier and quicker because the dog will understand by instinct that it is that you want him to do.

weimdogman · Post by **weimdogman** » Fri Dec 24, 2021 7:05 pm

Mosby wrote: ↑
Fri Dec 24, 2021 9:18 am
I went back and looked at the pups pedigree fwiw. The pup I am getting has 6 SH and 5 JH titles on the sire side going back 4 gen with a number of dual AKC show champions. There is also a strong European line on the sire side with European titles I am not familiar with. The dam side has a large number of FC's including some with DC, SH, MH or NAVHDA titles. Hopefully I will get a pup somewhere between a dud and a 400 yd dog....

He will also need to take naps with the old man and watch football games...but that seems to be a trait breed into all Vizslas.

Looks like you have really done your homework. Hope it all works out for all !

RyanDoolittle · Post by **RyanDoolittle** » Fri Dec 24, 2021 9:54 pm

cjhills wrote: ↑
Fri Dec 24, 2021 7:52 am
An AA FC title in a pup's pedigree would not rule him out for me, but for many it would. They sell for half what a well bred MH or NAVHDA Pup sells for.
Most family pet/hunting dog foot hunters have no use for 400 yd dog..........Cj

To have high standards or expectations of a dog doesn't mean they will be filled by purchasing an AA bred dog. Not sure why that is even in the topic.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Sat Dec 25, 2021 8:12 am

Merry Christmas.......Cj

Mosby · Post by **Mosby** » Sat Dec 25, 2021 3:25 pm

cjhills wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 25, 2021 8:12 am
Merry Christmas.......Cj

CJ,

Merry Christmas to you and all the other forum members too!

oldbeek · Post by **oldbeek** » Mon Jan 03, 2022 12:27 am

I would put a NSTRA champion up against any AKC dog out there as a hunting dog indicator. Almost everyone in my NSTRA group got into it to extend their hunting season. My dogs grand dad won every title AKC had before he was 2 years old. She has 7 HOF dogs on her recent pedigree including 32x nstra champ, Nolans last bullet. Dogs in Nstra have to run big point and retrieve to hand. When judging Nstra if a dog broke point to switch sides of a bush to cut off an escaping bird I didn't mark them down. That is what a real experienced bird dog does. When the bird is retrieved to hand the bird is given to the judge. If the bird is mashed and chomped the dog looses points. We are judging actual bird dogs. My dog is trained to not even roll the bird in her mouth. A tough judge will mark you down for that. Almost everyone trialing is called on to judge. There is no special class of people. What goes around ,comes around.The competition of beating the other dog to the set number of birds in the field really turns these dogs on. I do Nstra to extend the season and because my dog loves the competition. We also try to buy birds that fly well. About the topic jh,mh, sh,:::: Each title takes 6 runs to get the title at $50.00 each.That is $300.00 I would rather spend my $45.00 to run a Nstra trial and be able to shoot 5 birds. Even if I don't place it is cheaper than going to a plantation hunt. Did I mention that NSTRA.ORG is kid friendly? Our kids, boys and girls, help set up the fields haul water to the tanks and set up for the pot luck diners. Many of them run their own dogs. Kids start shooting at 16.Before that they use a designated shooter. Cant beat it for a father son event. Or in my case great grandfather, grandson and great grandson event. Check it out on u-tube or Nstra.org
NSTRA

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Mon Jan 03, 2022 6:19 am

Old Beek
I pretty much agree with all this.
Most titles require some things we would not want our bird dogs to do or vice versa.
It actually takes five passes each if you do all three titles. After my first two dogs I just ran master because it is basically a waste of time and money do go through all three plus dogs learn bad habits that can be hard to get rid of in the JH and SH. You can't train during a test.........Cj

MNTonester · Post by **MNTonester** » Mon Jan 03, 2022 6:13 pm

cjhills wrote: ↑
Fri Dec 24, 2021 7:52 am
An AA FC title in a pup's pedigree would not rule him out for me, but for many it would. They sell for half what a well bred MH or NAVHDA Pup sells for.
Most family pet/hunting dog foot hunters have no use for 400 yd dog..........Cj

amen to that. For my style of hunting, I want a closer working dog. My Springer had some titles in his pedigree; my lab might have had one or two in his; but my poodle has none. All three dogs have been great hunters and retrievers (the Springer was probably the best). All three dogs were/are a joy to hunt with and all adapted to my needs.

oldbeek · Post by **oldbeek** » Mon Jan 03, 2022 8:06 pm

For western quail hunting a big running dog with a Garmin will get you a lot of birds. If trained properly you can make them hunt at 30 yards in front of you for pheasants.

RyanDoolittle · Post by **RyanDoolittle** » Mon Jan 03, 2022 8:53 pm

MNTonester wrote: ↑
Mon Jan 03, 2022 6:13 pm

cjhills wrote: ↑
Fri Dec 24, 2021 7:52 am
An AA FC title in a pup's pedigree would not rule him out for me, but for many it would. They sell for half what a well bred MH or NAVHDA Pup sells for.
Most family pet/hunting dog foot hunters have no use for 400 yd dog..........Cj
amen to that. For my style of hunting, I want a closer working dog. My Springer had some titles in his pedigree; my lab might have had one or two in his; but my poodle has none. All three dogs have been great hunters and retrievers (the Springer was probably the best). All three dogs were/are a joy to hunt with and all adapted to my needs.

Most people don't understand how dogs breed on a downwards curve.

Even an AA to AA breeding, if 10 puppies are produced. 50-60% are going to be exactly what your looking for. The 40% that are left maybe 10% of those would actually be big running AA dogs or even prairie SD dogs

Mosby · Post by **Mosby** » Mon Jan 03, 2022 10:37 pm

I have noticed some HOF dogs came out of pretty non discript breedings. And every now and then a breeding will produce 2 or 3 outstanding FC's and another none. If there is a science or a formula to it, I am not smart enough to figure it out. I was talking to my wife about it and she reminded me that Secretariat was the second horse picked.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:11 am

RyanDoolittle wrote: ↑
Mon Jan 03, 2022 8:53 pm

MNTonester wrote: ↑
Mon Jan 03, 2022 6:13 pm

cjhills wrote: ↑
Fri Dec 24, 2021 7:52 am
An AA FC title in a pup's pedigree would not rule him out for me, but for many it would. They sell for half what a well bred MH or NAVHDA Pup sells for.
Most family pet/hunting dog foot hunters have no use for 400 yd dog..........Cj
amen to that. For my style of hunting, I want a closer working dog. My Springer had some titles in his pedigree; my lab might have had one or two in his; but my poodle has none. All three dogs have been great hunters and retrievers (the Springer was probably the best). All three dogs were/are a joy to hunt with and all adapted to my needs.
Most people don't understand how dogs breed on a downwards curve.

Even an AA to AA breeding, if 10 puppies are produced. 50-60% are going to be exactly what your looking for. The 40% that are left maybe 10% of those would actually be big running AA dogs or even prairie SD dogs

So, how do you pick the one that will stay in your Zip Code at 7 weeks.
I am not really sure how Hall of F ame works. I believe it is a breed thing. Not sure all breeds have one or what the requirements are to get a HOF.
Gsp has one and Brittney.I I think.......Cj

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:36 pm

Something that might be hard to swallow is thethe value of the title depends on the judge's issuing it. I was in the first group of pointing dog judges here in the N.W. First one I judged was up in Washington for A show club. The dog's they came with had little to offer and most failed the puppyclass. After the event one on the club member approached me and said they were good enough to put on the trial, the least we could do was pass their dog's. What I have noticed is that people that only show seldom go after more than a puppy title, they use it to show potentional in their pup's to make them easier to sell. At another test a few years later I failed a Pointer that disappeared from the start line and never showed again till it's handler entered the bird field. At the end that handler came up to me upset because two other field trial judges had passed the dog. The dog was a Fld Ch as I recall. But it's use as a hunting dog was highly suspect! Someone has a pointing dog title on a dog, ask to watch the dog preform and don't give a second look at a dog with no more than a puppy title. Puppy titles tells you little or thing. Senior dog title tells more and master title could mean anything from a really nice hunting dog to a run away all age dog! Point is don't buy dog's based on titles if you haven't seen them work!

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Wed Jan 05, 2022 6:29 am

One thing, the judging in Hunt tests is quite consistent. The rules are well defined and easy to understand. When I ran a lot of tests, AKC had a representative at most tests. If a conflict arose, they would settle it. Usually to the benefit of the handler.
I liked prefer guide dog puppies over trial dog puppies. In trials you pay for someone's opinion of your dog.With Guide dogs you get payed for their hunting ability............Cj

RyanDoolittle · Post by **RyanDoolittle** » Wed Jan 05, 2022 10:52 am

cjhills wrote: ↑
Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:11 am

RyanDoolittle wrote: ↑
Mon Jan 03, 2022 8:53 pm

MNTonester wrote: ↑
Mon Jan 03, 2022 6:13 pm

amen to that. For my style of hunting, I want a closer working dog. My Springer had some titles in his pedigree; my lab might have had one or two in his; but my poodle has none. All three dogs have been great hunters and retrievers (the Springer was probably the best). All three dogs were/are a joy to hunt with and all adapted to my needs.
Most people don't understand how dogs breed on a downwards curve.

Even an AA to AA breeding, if 10 puppies are produced. 50-60% are going to be exactly what your looking for. The 40% that are left maybe 10% of those would actually be big running AA dogs or even prairie SD dogs
So, how do you pick the one that will stay in your Zip Code at 7 weeks.
I am not really sure how Hall of F ame works. I believe it is a breed thing. Not sure all breeds have one or what the requirements are to get a HOF.
Gsp has one and Brittney.I I think.......Cj

You don't. That's why puppies are a crap shoot. You have just as good of a chance of getting a dog that won't leave your side as you do a Horizon running AA dog. However do you know what you have the greatest chance of getting? A good hunting dog. Im not sure why all your worrying about is run and AA dogs.

RyanDoolittle · Post by **RyanDoolittle** » Wed Jan 05, 2022 10:57 am

cjhills wrote: ↑
Wed Jan 05, 2022 6:29 am
One thing, the judging in Hunt tests is quite consistent. The rules are well defined and easy to understand. When I ran a lot of tests, AKC had a representative at most tests. If a conflict arose, they would settle it. Usually to the benefit of the handler.
I liked prefer guide dog puppies over trial dog puppies. In trials you pay for someone's opinion of your dog.With Guide dogs you get payed for their hunting ability............Cj

Testing stalls a breed at whatever level the testing ends at. That's as good as a breed can possibly get.

Trials were developed to assess breeding stock. Your dog can have its best run in the world however if 3 more dogs do it better, your out of placements.

Tests are fine if you want to go out, have some fun with your dog and get a ribbon that says your dog can do these things according to our rules. I've been there, played that game. Some are better than others in regards to the quality of the test and what the testers are assessing.

For evaluating breeding stock, head to head competition is the way to do that.

A test will show your dog can be trailed
A competition will show where your dog lies in regards to quality vs other stock.

If I am looking for a dog, I am looking for quality stock that has proven itself in competition for generations.

If I am looking for something to do on a weekend with my dog and get a ribbon to share on social media, a test is where you want to go for that. But it should not be a system we use to evaluate breeding stock. Just like a trial, at a test your paying for someone's opinion.

ckirsch · Post by **ckirsch** » Wed Jan 05, 2022 1:01 pm

Hate to see this disintegrating into a "my game is better than yours" debate.

Tests and trial winners are indeed decided through judges' opinions. Sometimes it's better to have an outside opinion, as we are all a little biased as to the abilities of our own dogs. Great dogs can obviously come without pedigrees full of FC's, MH's, or VC's, but I guess I'd rather rely on those hopefully impartial judges' perspectives than just taking the word of a breeder who claims ol' Sam is the best durn bird dawg ever.

Regarding the AA dogs, I suspect the big runners are also encouraged and trained to cover the ground they do. I'm not convinced that they can't be trained to adapt to different scenarios. I hunt with a pair of Blackhawk-bred EPs. Last Thursday we hunted a cattail-choked creek, and the dogs remained within fifty yards almost all day. Had to beep them a couple times but that's not much of an inconvenience. Those same dogs commonly get out to 400 yards or so when we're chasing sharptails on the prairie. My point is that most dogs' ranges can be trained, at least in terms of staying in close. I've found it much more difficult to persuade a bootlicker to reach out. I suppose if much of my hunting wasn't after grouse on the South Dakota prairies, I wouldn't miss having a dog willing to cover some ground, but in my case that versatility is pretty nice to have. I've never trialed any dogs as I'm not interested in the expense of horses, trailers, etc, but I sure appreciate what trialers have contributed to my breed.

On the other hand, I doubt that those of us who attend hunt tests do so in order to post photos of ribbons on social media. To succeed in the higher level tests a dog has to have the attributes wanted in a good bird dog, along with the intelligence to absorb and retain advanced training, and the stability to hold up to some pressure. I can't see much of a down side in that. No tests, or trials for that matter, are perfect, but they sure beat the heck out of leaving your dog in the kennel for the nine months outside of hunting season, and all have played a role in improving the dogs we hunt behind. Not to mention the good people one gets to meet through the process.

It's a nice thing that we have options as to which challenges we can pursue with our dogs....