Coyotes

[Garrison]

There is 1,500 acres of public land about a half mile from my house. One section is preserve (no hunting) and holds a good number of valley quail that we routinely work with the blank pistol, another section is open for hunting, but doesn’t hold any game birds. I normally see a coyote or two off in the distance and we all just leave each other alone. The last couple times they have been actively coming at us. I leashed up my dog and one came in hunched up and yapping at me within 20 yards. So I have been carrying my shotgun with some buckshot since that encounter.

Yesterday, I ran into 9 of them including a pack of 6. Watching them come towards us, they were actively hunting my dog as a pack. Pretty spooky! I recalled him and leashed him and cracked off a shot to scare them off and headed the other direction.

I have been running dogs here for many many years, and have never seen them this thick or act so brazen. Maybe time for some calling and counter measures.

Garrison

[Sharon]

They are an open season in Southern Ontario. They are practically lining up at Starbucks.

"In the Southern half of the province, coyote hunting is open all year and there is no limit on the number that can be taken. Despite this very liberal season, coyotes are thriving across their range in Ontario, showing that the hunting of coyotes is in no way a sustainability concern." quote

https://www.ofah.org/insider/2021/02/tr ... g-ontario/

[Garrison]

They are an open season in Southern Ontario. They are practically lining up at Starbucks.

"In the Southern half of the province, coyote hunting is open all year and there is no limit on the number that can be taken. Despite this very liberal season, coyotes are thriving across their range in Ontario, showing that the hunting of coyotes is in no way a sustainability concern." quote

https://www.ofah.org/insider/2021/02/tr ... g-ontario/

Same here as a non-game animal. Still have to use non-lead ammunition and have a hunting license.

[Sharon]

Well get busy then.

[Garrison]

Well get busy then.

Watching the clock at work!

[Sharon]

After I wrote that , I thought "Well that's a smart "bleep" comment. " Glad you took it as the joke it was meant to be. .

[oldbeek]

Garrison, what you had is young dogs with no skilled leader. There is no way a smart bitch leading a pack be anywhere near your dog with you in the area. I once had a pest control license which required many hours of education on how to eliminate pests.
The first order of business is to identify the pest. (coyote). second order is to learn its life cycle.
Class is open: In a pack the lead bitch is the only bitch that breeds. This controls the pack size. Most generally all the male offspring are either killed by the lead male or driven off. All the females in the pack have the same menstrual cycle. Kill the lead bitch and every bitch in the pack will come into heat and breed with dear old dad.
Results,, One lead bitch has 7 to 8 pups. Lead bitch is killed? Now you have 6-7 young moms with no mothering skills each having 7-8 pups. ?? 49 pups where you used to have 7 to 8. No mothering skills and you have adolescent pups raising heck all over. You don't have an organized pack with a central leader.
I have a pack around my house. In fact I have watering ponds on 2 corners of my property for them and the quail. I can read them like a book. They will haul butt past my house at about 11:30 pm . My dog will growl or want out side to give them heck. All the dogs in the neighbor hood start to singing. They go up through the neighbor hood looking for cotton tails munching on lawns. You can tell when the hit one because the yipping tone changes. I can follow their yipping back to my place when they will quiet down to drink, the head back into the desert. We co-exist quite well.

[art hubbard]

They get bold during their breeding season which is starting now or soon. We have had dogs out on the prairies this time of the year or a little later and have had a couple follow us and be barking all the while. Rest of the time they stay far away and are real spooky....Art

[Sharon]

Garrison, what you had is young dogs with no skilled leader. There is no way a smart bitch leading a pack be anywhere near your dog with you in the area. I once had a pest control license which required many hours of education on how to eliminate pests.
The first order of business is to identify the pest. (coyote). second order is to learn its life cycle.
Class is open: In a pack the lead bitch is the only bitch that breeds. This controls the pack size. Most generally all the male offspring are either killed by the lead male or driven off. All the females in the pack have the same menstrual cycle. Kill the lead bitch and every bitch in the pack will come into heat and breed with dear old dad.
Results,, One lead bitch has 7 to 8 pups. Lead bitch is killed? Now you have 6-7 young moms with no mothering skills each having 7-8 pups. ?? 49 pups where you used to have 7 to 8. No mothering skills and you have adolescent pups raising heck all over. You don't have an organized pack with a central leader.
I have a pack around my house. In fact I have watering ponds on 2 corners of my property for them and the quail. I can read them like a book. They will haul butt past my house at about 11:30 pm . My dog will growl or want out side to give them heck. All the dogs in the neighbor hood start to singing. They go up through the neighbor hood looking for cotton tails munching on lawns. You can tell when the hit one because the yipping tone changes. I can follow their yipping back to my place when they will quiet down to drink, the head back into the desert. We co-exist quite well.

That is an amazing read! Thanks.

[Steve007]

I was once invited on a coyote hunt, but declined. On the other hand, the concept that it takes a pack to take down a dog is not precisely correct. My hunting partner had his English Setter jumped by a big male coyote. Coyote apparently broke off when my partner rushed in, and my partner had the good sense to knock him over with an 1 1/4 ounceS of # 6 shot. Had it been my dog, I suspect I would've accepted the invitation to thin out the coyote population. I also knew a woman whose elderly dog -- not a small one-- was taken by the coyotes. I have no desire to coexist with them if there is a risk to my dog. I was here first.

[birds]

Garrison, what you had is young dogs with no skilled leader. There is no way a smart bitch leading a pack be anywhere near your dog with you in the area. I once had a pest control license which required many hours of education on how to eliminate pests.
The first order of business is to identify the pest. (coyote). second order is to learn its life cycle.
Class is open: In a pack the lead bitch is the only bitch that breeds. This controls the pack size. Most generally all the male offspring are either killed by the lead male or driven off. All the females in the pack have the same menstrual cycle. Kill the lead bitch and every bitch in the pack will come into heat and breed with dear old dad.
Results,, One lead bitch has 7 to 8 pups. Lead bitch is killed? Now you have 6-7 young moms with no mothering skills each having 7-8 pups. ?? 49 pups where you used to have 7 to 8. No mothering skills and you have adolescent pups raising heck all over. You don't have an organized pack with a central leader.
I have a pack around my house. In fact I have watering ponds on 2 corners of my property for them and the quail. I can read them like a book. They will haul butt past my house at about 11:30 pm . My dog will growl or want out side to give them heck. All the dogs in the neighbor hood start to singing. They go up through the neighbor hood looking for cotton tails munching on lawns. You can tell when the hit one because the yipping tone changes. I can follow their yipping back to my place when they will quiet down to drink, the head back into the desert. We co-exist quite well.

This exactly. This why indiscriminate "thinning out" of coyotes very often doesn't work out well (except to make people feel like they are in control). Remove the wrong coyote and you've just created a bigger problem. Thats not my opinion - its been well documented.

[Garrison]

Garrison, what you had is young dogs with no skilled leader. There is no way a smart bitch leading a pack be anywhere near your dog with you in the area. I once had a pest control license which required many hours of education on how to eliminate pests.
The first order of business is to identify the pest. (coyote). second order is to learn its life cycle.
Class is open: In a pack the lead bitch is the only bitch that breeds. This controls the pack size. Most generally all the male offspring are either killed by the lead male or driven off. All the females in the pack have the same menstrual cycle. Kill the lead bitch and every bitch in the pack will come into heat and breed with dear old dad.
Results,, One lead bitch has 7 to 8 pups. Lead bitch is killed? Now you have 6-7 young moms with no mothering skills each having 7-8 pups. ?? 49 pups where you used to have 7 to 8. No mothering skills and you have adolescent pups raising heck all over. You don't have an organized pack with a central leader.
I have a pack around my house. In fact I have watering ponds on 2 corners of my property for them and the quail. I can read them like a book. They will haul butt past my house at about 11:30 pm . My dog will growl or want out side to give them heck. All the dogs in the neighbor hood start to singing. They go up through the neighbor hood looking for cotton tails munching on lawns. You can tell when the hit one because the yipping tone changes. I can follow their yipping back to my place when they will quiet down to drink, the head back into the desert. We co-exist quite well.

Good information oldbeek, thanks for sharing. I was actually a Forestry and Natural Resource Management major in college with an emphasis on rangeland and wildlife management. I agree, and think I remember being taught something similar about pack dynamics, been a long time and never really put into practice. I don’t mind having them around, because no matter what, they are always going to be. I also believe and have witnessed that animals who have experienced some hunting pressure have a healthier respect towards humans. I have never had an issue on my hunting grounds, but wine country, and around town they display some different behaviors. Actually charging in on me, and watching 6 of them come in on my dog during daylight hours was a first, no bueno.

When we install new groves or vineyards we leave water for them out of necessity. They will destroy our new soft lines looking for water. Strange they only seem to do it to newly installed lines though. I normally have a habit of letting them be except for a couple who made a habit of pressing their luck and showed aggression towards dogs and people on our property. I have personally lost a dog in the vineyards, my parents have an avocado farm, their neighbor lost a large dog (Rottweiler mix) and a good friend that owns a winery around the corner from me lost his Chesapeake when a pack got to him. Most do seem to want nothing to do with people or dogs, unless small. Others don’t seem to be too inclined to “coexisting”.

Garrison

[Garrison]

They get bold during their breeding season which is starting now or soon. We have had dogs out on the prairies this time of the year or a little later and have had a couple follow us and be barking all the while. Rest of the time they stay far away and are real spooky....Art

Probably the case

[oldbeek]

if they do get bold or pups get curious. I hit them with 8s at 40-50 yards. That thing about water lines. I had one that started eating my drip lines right next to the pond I have for them. ??? out west near the Tejon ranch a guy shoots them all the time. He uses decoy dogs also. The population out there is huge.

[slistoe]

We had a problem with coyotes coming in the yard and being rather bold in the field towards dogs and humans. I set up bait and targeted them. The first winter I shot 10 coyotes. The next winter 6. Then 4. Then 3. Last winter one. All of those were adult coyotes save one. The bait has been out over a month now and I haven't had a single coyote visit it. Very rarely do we hear them talking at night now. Not sure how that fits with oldbeeks idea but that is my experience with localized control.

The other interesting thing is that 2 winters ago we saw the first rabbit in the yard since recent memory. There have been a few ever since. I have also seen a covey of Huns in the yard for the first time in about 8 years.

[cjhills]

Hunting in MN, ND, SD and Montana for many years, I have never seen a pack of coyotes. Many singles or doubles and in late summer families. I have never had a pack show any interest in my dogs or me. Maybe because it was in areas with few people. I have had the dogs catch a few coyotes and one female that killed a few. She was a 40 pound dog and the coyotes put up no resistance. Just layed on their back and snapped their teeth. I always got her off and let them go as quick as I could if I got there in time. Always worried about diseases........Cj

[Garrison]

Hunting in MN, ND, SD and Montana for many years, I have never seen a pack of coyotes. Many singles or doubles and in late summer families. I have never had a pack show any interest in my dogs or me. Maybe because it was in areas with few people. I have had the dogs catch a few coyotes and one female that killed a few. She was a 40 pound dog and the coyotes put up no resistance. Just layed on their back and snapped their teeth. I always got her off and let them go as quick as I could if I got there in time. Always worried about diseases........Cj

I have seen and experienced much of the same in hunting locations and daylight hours. If we are coming, they are usually going. At night they do pack up around here. Where my parent’s property is located, there is a natural spring and a good size pond. It is one of the only natural water sources in the area and was used by Native Americans (we have found many artifacts) and have read in a few books it was used as a summer water source by the missionaries and later the areas cattle ranches who drove the herds up to water. It attracts a lot of wildlife, coyotes, mt. lions, bobcats and a while back a black bear cub was found. Fish and game had no idea how it got there because there hasn’t been a bear population in the costal ranges in many decades. When they make a kill (pretty much nightly) their little valley lights up with chatter. I have seen 6-8 at a time with a spot light. During the day or at dusk, the most I have ever seen was three together. We had a McNab and a Australian Cattle Dog that were pretty tough on them, if any strayed into the fenced areas of the property they usually wouldn’t make it out. Prior to installing the fence, the McNab slipped a leash and was out for quite awhile on several occasions, she made it home, but was pretty ripped up. I had her shaved down once for stitches, and she was scar tissue from tip to tail from her previous life. I have never seen such a hatred for coyotes in my life.

There is continually talk of neighbors losing dogs in the area, but the ones I mentioned previously and every barn cat in the area are the only situations I personally saw the results of. Unfortunately mine was in front of a t-ball team. A neighbor who is a retired ball player built a field on his property and my terrier was snagged during a team practice at his house. My parents currently have Border Collies, they seem smart enough and fast enough to avoid any heavy confrontation. I’m afraid my English Setter isn’t cut from the same cloth in the self protection/preservation department, I worry about him a bit more than my GSP even at an advanced age. Especially with his habit of naturally backing as soon as he sees one stop.

Last time out, I saw 9 total, a single who split, the aforementioned pack and a pair that were pretty curious.

Garrison

[birds]

We have tons of them around here. The only time I have seen any aggression is breeding season or when they have pups. Otherwise they are generally headed away at top speed. Not pack animals here either except family groups in late summer/fall. I used to read grassland monitoring plots marked with rebar stakes and IDed with thin aluminum tags - coyotes would gnaw the tags into little bits of crumpled metal. We finally had to quit using the tags. A University grassland research team had an entire year's data ruined because of this - they couldn't identify which plot was which even if they could find them But I wouldn't want to live anywhere without them and happily, for me at least, I doubt I'll ever have to.
As far as their affect on game birds - I doubt much except for maybe robbing nests. And in any event I was always taught that the reason upland birds have such big clutches is because they have to feed a lot of things

[Sharon]

Interesting reads.

They definitely take down the deer and rabbits. When they moved into and area that I always had good success in, that was the end of the deer and rabbits.

[weimdogman]

We have tons of them around here. The only time I have seen any aggression is breeding season or when they have pups. Otherwise they are generally headed away at top speed. Not pack animals here either except family groups in late summer/fall. I used to read grassland monitoring plots marked with rebar stakes and IDed with thin aluminum tags - coyotes would gnaw the tags into little bits of crumpled metal. We finally had to quit using the tags. A University grassland research team had an entire year's data ruined because of this - they couldn't identify which plot was which even if they could find them But I wouldn't want to live anywhere without them and happily, for me at least, I doubt I'll ever have to.
As far as their affect on game birds - I doubt much except for maybe robbing nests. And in any event I was always taught that the reason upland birds have such big clutches is because they have to feed a lot of things

Technology has really changed research. I know a soil research project where they bury a electronic beacon 10 ft deep. Will transmit ground moisture data for like 5 years. Beacon about the size of a .45 acp shell.

Friend of mine Samantha Fino is working on a doctorate on predators and duck nests. After 2 years of field research believe she has proof badgers are harder on ground nesting birds then others.

Study was centered on 2 counties one of which has had a coyote bounty program for 20 years. Don't believe she saw a difference in coyote #'s / activity.

[birds]

Thats pretty cool! We were looking at how certain varieties of range plants react to differences in various applications of grazing and fire - pretty basic stuff.. The ruined University study was trying to quantify the effects of leafy spurge biocontrol. It was all subjective and relied on people estimating species and canopy cover over time. Kind of quick and dirty - more looking at trends than anything quantified by hard science. All this was 15-20 years ago and for the record we warned the U folks about using the aluminum ID tags. They looked at us like we were crazy. I was kind of with the coyotes on that one.

I don't doubt that badgers have an effect on bird nests and I do doubt its news to badgers or birds. I guess I always fall back on the fact that badgers (and every other native predator not enhanced by man's activities -ie skunks or raccoons taking advantage of old buildings/rock piles for den sites etc.) have been around forever and so have their food sources. It always worked in the past so to my mind the game changer is human activity and how that may or may not affect things. Want fewer skunks and raccoons? Take away denning sites and food sources provided by human activity.

That info on coyotes does not surprise me in the least. Most of the predator control stuff has always been more about placating people than making an informed effort to figure out what is going on. "Lock and load" doesn't always work out

[RyanDoolittle]

I like to wait for a few days of frigid cold, when the weather breaks head out with a caller and my rifle. The coyotes are so hungry they are stupid. You can get them in close and if your a decent shot can take 3 or 4 of the pack out before they get out of range.

The other thing I have started carrying on my saddle is a 22 mag lever gun. Kills them inside 75 yards.

We have a problem in the city at off leash dog parks with coyotes. Not much you can do there. We need someone with a couple Drahthaars to run through those off leash area. A couple or 3 Drahts would clean them coyotes right up

[BlessedGirl]

Wow, that was an interesting read, oldbeek. Coyotes are nasty.

We have Ankole Watusi cattle out on the ranch and have had a problems with coyotes (and possibly other predators) during calving. The last few years we've downsized our herd and either the coyotes or the cougar or bear have been killing most of the calves (which there aren't very many of) within the first few weeks of birth. Probably the reason why the whole herd charged my puppy when we were out feeding cows last winter. It seems like with such an aggressive coyote population on the ranch there would be few rabbits, but they are everywhere you look. The guys tried trapping the coyotes with no success. I wish there was a way to kill off the ones that hide in the brush and only come out and do damage when you aren't looking...

The coyotes have also been somewhat of a problem here at home, but not so much with the livestock as with the dogs. We suspect our favorite cattle dog was killed at night by the coyotes. One night it looked like a few were trying to lead our German Shepherd into a trap, but she had a little more sense than to play their game. Lately they've been pretty well behaved.

[Trailgunner]

My Vizsla was attacked on the Kansas colorado border while hunting pheasants in thick crp. We were also attacked twice in pike national forest. I carry a handgun when ever I hunt now while hunting. They are breeding with wolves and becoming larger and bolder. Be safe out there.

[Garrison]

My Vizsla was attacked on the Kansas colorado border while hunting pheasants in thick crp. We were also attacked twice in pike national forest. I carry a handgun when ever I hunt now while hunting. They are breeding with wolves and becoming larger and bolder. Be safe out there.

Interesting read.
[https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-ne ... 180957141/][/url]

[Trailgunner]

I didn’t realize GSD and Dobermans were in their genetics.

[fishvik]

They are an open season in Southern Ontario. They are practically lining up at Starbucks.

"In the Southern half of the province, coyote hunting is open all year and there is no limit on the number that can be taken. Despite this very liberal season, coyotes are thriving across their range in Ontario, showing that the hunting of coyotes is in no way a sustainability concern." quote

https://www.ofah.org/insider/2021/02/tr ... g-ontario/

Same here as a non-game animal. Still have to use non-lead ammunition and have a hunting license.

I find it interesting that you can actually hunt a predator in CA. The Disney Wildlife Institute grads I guess they haven't figured that coyotes are a predator.

[Garrison]

They are an open season in Southern Ontario. They are practically lining up at Starbucks.

"In the Southern half of the province, coyote hunting is open all year and there is no limit on the number that can be taken. Despite this very liberal season, coyotes are thriving across their range in Ontario, showing that the hunting of coyotes is in no way a sustainability concern." quote

https://www.ofah.org/insider/2021/02/tr ... g-ontario/

Same here as a non-game animal. Still have to use non-lead ammunition and have a hunting license.

I find it interesting that you can actually hunt a predator in CA. The Disney Wildlife Institute grads I guess they haven't figured that coyotes are a predator.

I guess they eat enough house cats and toy breeds to stay off the endangered species list!

California has 40 million residents and only 244,000 of us buy a hunting license. Of those 244,000 only 166,000 purchase an upland stamp. At the same time, 52% of our state is public land. That is more accessible land for a handful of us, than multiple state’s total private and public land combined, which also carry far more hunters and few if any wild birds.

I’ll take it, tell everybody how crappy our hunting is, how non-toxic ammo and politicians have ruined the sport, how license prices are exorbitantly high (cost of a round of golf) and help anyone pack who wants to move out of here. As long as I can continue to go hunting in some of the most beautiful country in the world and not run into anybody while doing so. But don’t tell anybody.

Garrison

11C9FD54-418E-4370-9A19-0D227275C391.jpeg

197F790D-1806-40F9-B3AD-55A782202044.jpeg

[BlessedGirl]

Same here as a non-game animal. Still have to use non-lead ammunition and have a hunting license.

I find it interesting that you can actually hunt a predator in CA. The Disney Wildlife Institute grads I guess they haven't figured that coyotes are a predator.

I guess they eat enough house cats and toy breeds to stay off the endangered species list!

California has 40 million residents and only 244,000 of us buy a hunting license. Of those 244,000 only 166,000 purchase an upland stamp. At the same time, 52% of our state is public land. That is more accessible land for a handful of us, than multiple state’s total private and public land combined, which also carry far more hunters and few if any wild birds.

I’ll take it, tell everybody how crappy our hunting is, how non-toxic ammo and politicians have ruined the sport, how license prices are exorbitantly high (cost of a round of golf) and help anyone pack who wants to move out of here. As long as I can continue to go hunting in some of the most beautiful country in the world and not run into anybody while doing so. But don’t tell anybody.

Garrison
11C9FD54-418E-4370-9A19-0D227275C391.jpeg

197F790D-1806-40F9-B3AD-55A782202044.jpeg

Is that your dog from Northwoods Bird Dogs?

[Garrison]

I find it interesting that you can actually hunt a predator in CA. The Disney Wildlife Institute grads I guess they haven't figured that coyotes are a predator.

I guess they eat enough house cats and toy breeds to stay off the endangered species list!

California has 40 million residents and only 244,000 of us buy a hunting license. Of those 244,000 only 166,000 purchase an upland stamp. At the same time, 52% of our state is public land. That is more accessible land for a handful of us, than multiple state’s total private and public land combined, which also carry far more hunters and few if any wild birds.

I’ll take it, tell everybody how crappy our hunting is, how non-toxic ammo and politicians have ruined the sport, how license prices are exorbitantly high (cost of a round of golf) and help anyone pack who wants to move out of here. As long as I can continue to go hunting in some of the most beautiful country in the world and not run into anybody while doing so. But don’t tell anybody.

Garrison
11C9FD54-418E-4370-9A19-0D227275C391.jpeg

197F790D-1806-40F9-B3AD-55A782202044.jpeg

Is that your dog from Northwoods Bird Dogs?

[BlessedGirl]

He's quite a good looking dog.

[Garrison]

He's quite a good looking dog.

Thank you, we like him!

Garrison