Some things I could manage without.

[Garrison]

I studied Forestry, Range and Natural Resource Management as one of my majors. I have a decently worn copy of “A Sand County Almanac” and “Silent Spring” among others sitting on the shelf. I have heard, and have a solid understanding of promoting “a state of dynamic equilibrium within a community of organisms in which genetic, species, and ecosystem diversity remain relatively stable”……….Yet, there are just some things I imagine I could get along just fine without. At least the ones found under an outdoor dog bed.

Public service reminder, get your dog snake broke.

Garrison

68B2DE7E-FF7F-4BE8-923D-7222B87C2141.jpeg

[gonehuntin']

His head looks funny.

[birds]

I understand the sentiment but I still wouldn't personally kill one - I'd move myself/dog or if it was in my yard it would get a trip out of town in a box for a new lease on killing rodents. Me killing one isn't going to change the overall snake/dog dynamic in the field and they get enough grief from everyone else. And my dog is snake broke/vaccinated. Beautiful snake.

[Garrison]

I understand the sentiment but I still wouldn't personally kill one - I'd move myself/dog or if it was in my yard it would get a trip out of town in a box for a new lease on killing rodents. Me killing one isn't going to change the overall snake/dog dynamic in the field and they get enough grief from everyone else. And my dog is snake broke/vaccinated. Beautiful snake.

I understand the sentiment, but admittedly having a bit of trouble following the logic. Is the lowly ground squirrel of lesser value than the beautiful serpent?

Personally, I’m not all that interested in handling a Southern Pacific (one of the deadliest in North America) for any reason. I like knowing they are out there, and we routinely leave them be in the field. I do draw the line when it comes to kids and dogs in the yard. Besides, just opened up some prime grazing for the gopher snakes.

Garrison

[oldbeek]

8 Mojave Greens in or near my yard in one season. One was on my grass while I was cleaning up after a birthday party. 30 6 year olds were there a few hrs before. Less snakes = less breeding.

[birds]

I understand the sentiment but I still wouldn't personally kill one - I'd move myself/dog or if it was in my yard it would get a trip out of town in a box for a new lease on killing rodents. Me killing one isn't going to change the overall snake/dog dynamic in the field and they get enough grief from everyone else. And my dog is snake broke/vaccinated. Beautiful snake.

I understand the sentiment, but admittedly having a bit of trouble following the logic. Is the lowly ground squirrel of lesser value than the beautiful serpent?

Personally, I’m not all that interested in handling a Southern Pacific (one of the deadliest in North America) for any reason. I like knowing they are out there, and we routinely leave them be in the field. I do draw the line when it comes to kids and dogs in the yard. Besides, just opened up some prime grazing for the gopher snakes.

Garrison

Sorry - I used the wrong word - "control". I've got nothing at all against ground squirrels - they feed a lot of things and in any event - much to the chagrin of the controller - trying to "control" them usually results in them throwing larger litters.
Since you are a fan of Aldo Leopold you no doubt are familiar with the line "Man brings all things to the test of himself" Although he was talking about lightning it could certainly be applied to rattlesnakes . I personally have nothing against rattlesnakes but I guess I could understand controlling them in my yard. In the field I have always figured that if I'm in rattlesnake habitat then I better be ready to deal with rattlesnakes. I don't think killing them is going to do anything to realistically control their numbers (unless we are talking about a critically endangered species). I know a lot of people who go out of their way to kill every one they see no matter the setting (and believe it to be of great service to society in general) but still there are plenty of rattlesnakes. Killing them at random has always seemed to me to be more about the satisfaction of the person doing the killing than actual meaningful control. In the end anyone who wants to is going to kill whatever rattlesnake they want to kill, just not me. That's really all I was trying to say.

[ckirsch]

I vaccinate my dogs, and snake break them as well, but a dog can be snake broke and vaccinated and still die from a snake bite. A "broke" dog can get bitten while flying across a field, never having any idea it was bitten by a snake that it stepped on while running full speed Most vets will admit that the vaccine is far from 100% effective. A few years ago, my own vet's vaccinated lab jumped off his tailgate into a ditch and landed directly on top of an unseen rattler. The bite apparently hit an artery and the dog was dead within a few minutes.

In my book, one less rattlesnake is, well, one less rattlesnake. Those I find usually end up with funny-looking heads. The bullsnakes will be happy to dine on any leftover rodents...

[BlessedGirl]

Garter snakes pose no threat here in the PNW. Although if I did deal with rattlers hopefully my up-and-coming guineas would take care of them. I know a guy who lived east of me by a couple hours and he was definitely in rattler country. He got his hands on a ton of barn cats and I heard the reason for that was to kill or ward off the snakes. I don't know how effective that is, but maybe it worked for him.

[MNTonester]

Garter snakes pose no threat here in the PNW. Although if I did deal with rattlers hopefully my up-and-coming guineas would take care of them. I know a guy who lived east of me by a couple hours and he was definitely in rattler country. He got his hands on a ton of barn cats and I heard the reason for that was to kill or ward off the snakes. I don't know how effective that is, but maybe it worked for him.

or at least give them something else to bite

[mask]

Why would you leave a rattle snake alive in an area you hunt or run your dogs. As stated most dogs are hit while running by the snake. I kill them when I come across them.

[Garrison]

Why would you leave a rattle snake alive in an area you hunt or run your dogs. As stated most dogs are hit while running by the snake. I kill them when I come across them.

I leave them be and head the other direction with the dog/dogs because me messing with them is the easiest way for one of us to get bit. I am not out in the field with a shotgun very often when I run across them, it’s usually pre or post season when the warm weather brings them out. At home, and with a shovel handy, that’s an easy call.

Garrison

[Mosby]

Few snakes worse than the Mojave, maybe a coral snake but that's about it.

[Garrison]

Few snakes worse than the Mojave, maybe a coral snake but that's about it.

Are you sure about that? Good news is, the Southern Pacific variants mentioned are only located in the areas we frequent to hunt, hike and camp. The ones found under dog beds and in the chicken coop, not sure about their venom.

Most Dangerous Snake in USA? Rattlesnake Study Provides Clue
Posted by: Frank Indiviglio in Snakes, Venomous Snakes March 3, 2014 13 Comments 16153 Views


Southern Pacific Rattlesnake
I’ve spent decades working with venomous snakes, setting-up snakebite protocols in zoos, and responding to snakebite emergencies. Today, I’m sometimes criticized for my strong stand against the keeping venomous snakes in private collections. But I have learned that, even under the best of circumstances, treatment can be hampered by gaps in our knowledge. For example, we know that the chemical characteristics of venom vary over the ranges of certain species. This can affect treatment, and, as we’ll see below, may mean the difference between life and death for a victim. In fact, the venom of some Southern Pacific Rattlesnakes is so unique that it is unaffected by the antivenin currently in use! Are they the most dangerous snake in the USA?

Rattlesnake Venom and Antivenin
We’ve known for some time that the venoms of most snakes contain both haemotoxic (attacking blood vessels) and neurotoxic (attacking nerves) properties, with one or the other predominating. The venoms of several rattlesnakes have both, but the effects of most are haemotoxic in nature.

The antivenin administered to rattlesnake bite victims was formulated with that rule in mind. A single antivenin is used to treat bites from any of the 34 species native to the USA.


The Most Dangerous Snake in the USA? One Subspecies, Two Distinct Venoms
The Southern Pacific Rattlesnake (Crotalus oreganus helleri) is considered to be one of the most medically significant rattlesnakes in the USA. Researchers from the University of Queensland analyzed the venoms produced by two separate populations of this species. The populations studied are located in southern California, within a two hour’s drive from one another.

Southern Pacific Rattlesnakes living near Phelan, CA. produce fairly “typical” rattlesnake venom that attacks the blood vessels of a victim with anticoagulants and other compounds.

However, Southern Pacific Rattlesnakes living near Idyllwild, CA – 2 hours away by car – manufacture venom that could not be more different than that of their Phelan neighbors. Highly neurotoxic in action, this venom kills by paralyzing the nervous system (as is commonly seen in cobra bites).

Timber Rattlesnake
Why Evolve Unique Venom?
Over time, certain prey animals evolve resistances to the venoms of their major snake predators. Snakes may respond with evolutionary changes of their own. Venom may eventually become “fine-tuned” to kill one or several specific prey animals.

For example, the venom of Timber Rattlesnakes (Crotalus horridus) living in New England is more effective against the most common local prey animal (gray squirrels, I believe) than against other creatures. Further south, cottontail rabbits predominate in the diet, and the venom’s chemical make-up reflects this. Timber Rattlesnakes living on St. Catherine’s Island off Georgia (formerly used by the Bronx Zoo to breed endangered species) seem to produce especially virulent venom, at least where dogs are concerned.

The Southern Pacific Rattlesnake populations mentioned above represent the greatest known venom variation within a species, and the distance involved is the shortest documented. Researchers theorize that the isolation of the Idyllwild population, which occupies mountain ridges near and over 4,000 feet above sea level, partially accounts for their unique venom.

Questions remain as to why neurotoxic venom has evolved among these snakes. One proposed explanation is found in the nature of the habitat, which is rocky and studded with caves and crevices. Rattlesnakes bite their prey and then withdraw, tracking their victims once they have expired. Perhaps the fast-acting neurotoxic venom allows snakes to more easily locate their victims. This may not be a consideration for snakes living in prairies and other open habitats.

Neo-Tropical Rattle Snake
Complications for Snakebite Victims
As mentioned earlier, the antivenin administered to rattlesnake bite victims in the USA was formulated to counteract the effects of “typical” rattlesnake venom, which is largely haemotoxic in nature. It is believed that people bitten by a Southern Pacific Rattlesnake living near Idyllwild would not be helped by this antivenin.

Certain populations of Mojave Rattlesnakes, C. scutulatus and the Neo-Tropical Rattlesnake, C. durissus, have long been known to contain neurotoxins. If I recall correctly from my days at the Bronx Zoo, bites from these species were treated with a mix of 2-3 antivenins.

[BlessedGirl]

Garter snakes pose no threat here in the PNW. Although if I did deal with rattlers hopefully my up-and-coming guineas would take care of them. I know a guy who lived east of me by a couple hours and he was definitely in rattler country. He got his hands on a ton of barn cats and I heard the reason for that was to kill or ward off the snakes. I don't know how effective that is, but maybe it worked for him.

or at least give them something else to bite

Haha, maybe!

[Mosby]

Few snakes worse than the Mojave, maybe a coral snake but that's about it.

Are you sure about that? Good news is, the Southern Pacific variants mentioned are only located in the areas we frequent to hunt, hike and camp. The ones found under dog beds and in the chicken coop, not sure about their venom.

Most Dangerous Snake in USA? Rattlesnake Study Provides Clue
Posted by: Frank Indiviglio in Snakes, Venomous Snakes March 3, 2014 13 Comments 16153 Views


Southern Pacific Rattlesnake
I’ve spent decades working with venomous snakes, setting-up snakebite protocols in zoos, and responding to snakebite emergencies. Today, I’m sometimes criticized for my strong stand against the keeping venomous snakes in private collections. But I have learned that, even under the best of circumstances, treatment can be hampered by gaps in our knowledge. For example, we know that the chemical characteristics of venom vary over the ranges of certain species. This can affect treatment, and, as we’ll see below, may mean the difference between life and death for a victim. In fact, the venom of some Southern Pacific Rattlesnakes is so unique that it is unaffected by the antivenin currently in use! Are they the most dangerous snake in the USA?

Rattlesnake Venom and Antivenin
We’ve known for some time that the venoms of most snakes contain both haemotoxic (attacking blood vessels) and neurotoxic (attacking nerves) properties, with one or the other predominating. The venoms of several rattlesnakes have both, but the effects of most are haemotoxic in nature.

The antivenin administered to rattlesnake bite victims was formulated with that rule in mind. A single antivenin is used to treat bites from any of the 34 species native to the USA.


The Most Dangerous Snake in the USA? One Subspecies, Two Distinct Venoms
The Southern Pacific Rattlesnake (Crotalus oreganus helleri) is considered to be one of the most medically significant rattlesnakes in the USA. Researchers from the University of Queensland analyzed the venoms produced by two separate populations of this species. The populations studied are located in southern California, within a two hour’s drive from one another.

Southern Pacific Rattlesnakes living near Phelan, CA. produce fairly “typical” rattlesnake venom that attacks the blood vessels of a victim with anticoagulants and other compounds.

However, Southern Pacific Rattlesnakes living near Idyllwild, CA – 2 hours away by car – manufacture venom that could not be more different than that of their Phelan neighbors. Highly neurotoxic in action, this venom kills by paralyzing the nervous system (as is commonly seen in cobra bites).

Timber Rattlesnake
Why Evolve Unique Venom?
Over time, certain prey animals evolve resistances to the venoms of their major snake predators. Snakes may respond with evolutionary changes of their own. Venom may eventually become “fine-tuned” to kill one or several specific prey animals.

For example, the venom of Timber Rattlesnakes (Crotalus horridus) living in New England is more effective against the most common local prey animal (gray squirrels, I believe) than against other creatures. Further south, cottontail rabbits predominate in the diet, and the venom’s chemical make-up reflects this. Timber Rattlesnakes living on St. Catherine’s Island off Georgia (formerly used by the Bronx Zoo to breed endangered species) seem to produce especially virulent venom, at least where dogs are concerned.

The Southern Pacific Rattlesnake populations mentioned above represent the greatest known venom variation within a species, and the distance involved is the shortest documented. Researchers theorize that the isolation of the Idyllwild population, which occupies mountain ridges near and over 4,000 feet above sea level, partially accounts for their unique venom.

Questions remain as to why neurotoxic venom has evolved among these snakes. One proposed explanation is found in the nature of the habitat, which is rocky and studded with caves and crevices. Rattlesnakes bite their prey and then withdraw, tracking their victims once they have expired. Perhaps the fast-acting neurotoxic venom allows snakes to more easily locate their victims. This may not be a consideration for snakes living in prairies and other open habitats.

Neo-Tropical Rattle Snake
Complications for Snakebite Victims
As mentioned earlier, the antivenin administered to rattlesnake bite victims in the USA was formulated to counteract the effects of “typical” rattlesnake venom, which is largely haemotoxic in nature. It is believed that people bitten by a Southern Pacific Rattlesnake living near Idyllwild would not be helped by this antivenin.

Certain populations of Mojave Rattlesnakes, C. scutulatus and the Neo-Tropical Rattlesnake, C. durissus, have long been known to contain neurotoxins. If I recall correctly from my days at the Bronx Zoo, bites from these species were treated with a mix of 2-3 antivenins.

Well, I am certainly no expert and if there is something worse than a Mojave I don't want to run into it..lol. I live on a lake and 5 acres in NW Arkansas. Water moccasins, copperheads and pygmy rattlesnakes seem to like to visit my house more than others. You have it worse.

[Garrison]

Mosby,

I couldn’t agree more with the first part! I don’t know about worse, I have been to Arkansas plenty of times (family), those water snakes have scared the piss out of me on several occasions. Angry devils! But on par with a Mojave is reason enough in my book to leave a wide berth. I don’t think I am willing to give them a free ride out of town any time soon, unless it’s in a trash can.

Garrison

[fishvik]

I too have a wildlife and fisheries background, both education and 40 years of employment before I retired. I'm still involved with a chapter of Trout Unlimited. I like Garrison probably grew up in the beginning Earth Day era, went to college to save the world. That being said I think there are just some places where human/dangerous wildlife interface is not expectable. Rattlesnakes in human inhabited areas is one of those places. It seems that we have come to a place in society that we base our knowledge of nature on Walt Disney and Animal Planet. We have folks that seem to think feeding grizzlies in Jackson, WY is just fine, even though it is a death sentence for the bear, and may be the person putting out food. Rattlers out where we hunt and taken precautions to protect ourselves and our dogs are something that should just be avoided and left alone. Rattlers in the backyard are not in my opinion and must be removed one way or another. And by the way I've been bitten by a small prairie rattler here in Idaho while working on a research project. The treatment makes for a great story.

[Garrison]

I too have a wildlife and fisheries background, both education and 40 years of employment before I retired. I'm still involved with a chapter of Trout Unlimited. I like Garrison probably grew up in the beginning Earth Day era, went to college to save the world. That being said I think there are just some places where human/dangerous wildlife interface is not expectable. Rattlesnakes in human inhabited areas is one of those places. It seems that we have come to a place in society that we base our knowledge of nature on Walt Disney and Animal Planet. We have folks that seem to think feeding grizzlies in Jackson, WY is just fine, even though it is a death sentence for the bear, and may be the person putting out food. Rattlers out where we hunt and taken precautions to protect ourselves and our dogs are something that should just be avoided and left alone. Rattlers in the backyard are not in my opinion and must be removed one way or another. And by the way I've been bitten by a small prairie rattler here in Idaho while working on a research project. The treatment makes for a great story.

Are you going to leave us hanging? Would love to hear that great story. But we understand, some things are better left to the campfire.

Garrison

[fishvik]

Garrison, Definitely. It is an at least 3 beer story and is best told around a campfire. Some day if you get up this way or I get down your way I fill you in after maybe a bird hunt. There's an invite for you.

[Garrison]

Garrison, Definitely. It is an at least 3 beer story and is best told around a campfire. Some day if you get up this way or I get down your way I fill you in after maybe a bird hunt. There's an invite for you.

I wish I could talk a few regulars from the forum into coming along to listen to this Rooster Cogburn tale! After experiencing the disenchantment in the prospects of my “saving the world”, I figured at least I can affect a good time for those around me until the bitter end. So I became a cellar master and later a winemaker. My best friend owns a pretty good brewery, so I could handle that part of the equation. As long as you can supply the beautiful country and some of the laughs.

Garrison

[fishvik]

That I can do. My motto has always been "It's not how old you are, its how many miles off road."

[Sharon]

OP

In ON we only have one rattler in a small part of ON- Massasauga Rattler. Unless you go to that one small part of ON., you don't have to worry about poisonous snakes when hunting. ... no snake breaking needed for your dog.

[Garrison]

OP

In ON we only have one rattler in a small part of ON- Massasauga Rattler. Unless you go to that one small part of ON., you don't have to worry about poisonous snakes when hunting. ... no snake breaking needed for your dog.

Show off!

[cjhills]

One of the advantages of living where we Have 9 months of winter and 3 months of poor sledding. 15 F tonight.......Cj

[RayGubernat]

Delaware is not much in the way of a state, but it does have some special things going for it. No sales tax for one. I moved here from NJ about 20 years ago and where I lived in NJ had a few copperheads in the hills in the north, a few moccasins and a VERY few rattlesnakes in south Jersey. Not enough to get exercised about really. When we moved to central DE, I found out that there were zero poisonous snakes below the C & D canal where we live. Tons of black racers and other non-venomous species to keep the vermin down, but nothing poisonous. Works for me.

RayG

[oregon woodsmoke]

That was a beautiful creature.

Mother Nature isn't kind to her children who make serious mistakes and moving into a human dwelling and into a dog's bed is about as serious a mistake as a rattlesnake can make.

I used to have a neighbor who would come and capture rattlesnakes and hold them safe until he could rehome them far out in the desert away from humans. But I don't have the skills to capture them, not the cages and facilities to keep them safe, so the shovel it is.

The same snake out in the wilds, we will just walk a wide berth around him and let him go his way.

[Sharon]

Here's a beautiful snake for you in Ontario. Eastern Hognose- totally harmless. Lifts its head like a cobra so if you don't know what it is you could be totally shocked.

https://animalia.bio/eastern-hognose-snake

[weimdogman]

Barn cats , keep the rodent population down so rodents aren't attracting snakes. Cats also catch and kill the snakes. If you are going to have barn cats do make a little effort to keep them healthy. They also need some vaccinations .

[Garrison]

Barn cats , keep the rodent population down so rodents aren't attracting snakes. Cats also catch and kill the snakes. If you are going to have barn cats do make a little effort to keep them healthy. They also need some vaccinations .

I went on a pig hunt near where I went to school around 8 years ago, on the central coast of California. The cattle ranch where we went I had visited in college for a class, it is 30,000+ acres and the owner and his sons book hunts twice a week throughout the year. When driving in, I noticed a good number of cats around the ranch headquarters.

The next day my father in-law and I harvested a couple good size pigs and when we field dressed them, he put some of the vitals in a bucket for the “clean up crew”. We came back and they heard us coming, the cats I saw were just a small part of what seemed like 100+ that were waiting. When they had the pigs hung up for skinning and bagging he dropped everything he cut and trimmed on the ground and the 5 gallon buckets. By the next morning the concrete slab and back of the truck were absolutely spotless and zero smell. Was a sight to see, and they were some healthy looking cats!

Garrison