Pup is eating birds.. pls help!

[Ontariofella]

So my GSP turned 1 year old last week. She is my first gundog and I have been training her on my own since I have not met anyone else in Northern Ontario that trains hunting dogs. She has exceeded my expectations for the most part. She listens well in the field, she can find and point lots of wild grouse, and she retrieves bumpers like a pro. But I cannot for the life of me get her to retrieve anything with feathers. I have nowhere to buy live birds around here, so I've been using a couple frozen carcasses from last hunting season. Once she gets her mouth on it she clamps down with serious force and will not let go. I tried it with her this morning for the first time in a couple months and it was a nightmare. I tried pinching her rear flank as hard as I could and she would not let go. She ended up chomping the legs off the bird and that was when I was able to get the rest of the bird away from her. She has never been aggressive at all or bit anyone, but she got some serious crazy eyes when I was trying to get that bird from her and I was honestly prepared for a nip.

I know people are going to recommend I get professional help with a trainer, but that isn't much of an option for me as there are no trainers within at least an 8hr drive of where I live. I really want to address this issue now so it doesn't become a bigger problem during her first hunting season this fall. I didn't plan on force fetching her, but I will do whatever I have to do. I'm still very new to this and I'm lost right now. Any help is appreciated.

[Garrison]

Did your dog catch some birds when unrestrained?

A proper and thorough force fetch protocol even by a seasoned veteran may or may not help your situation, but I would wager it would be a real battle and more likely not correct it completely. It will not hurt the situation and Evan Graham’s Smart Fetch is the program I would use. Your only full proof option for a functional bird dog with a mouth as you describe, might be a dead broke dog that stands and waits for you to go pick them up. Lots of great bird dogs out there that don’t retrieve.

Garrison

[cjhills]

Many times dogs will chomp the first birds they retrieve, most get over it. Frozen birds can cause issues, but look like your only option. If you could find some pigeons would be great. It looks like she is just a beginner and is excited about having a bird in her mouth.
I think you could take her out on a check cord with some dummies, frozen birds and treats. Work on sending her to retrieve. Have her retrieve a few dummies, pet her up and give her a treat when she does good. Throw the bird send her on the retrieve, don't let her run off. When she comes back get the bird from her with the least hassle you can pet her and give her a a treat. Throw a couple dummies and try the bird again. You can use a blank gun and work on steadiness at the same time. Watch closely for signs of stress and back off if she is having problems. One time may be enough to start. Keep it as happy as you can but get the bird with as little hassle as you can. She will learn the birds are yours. I definitely would not try force fetching at this time.......Cj
Did you shoot Grouse over her last fall. If so did she retrieve them. I think this will pass when she learns her job .

[Ontariofella]

Thank you guys for the replies. I planned on using this dog for some early season duck hunts as well so it would be really nice to get her retrieving. I will look into that program, thanks Garrison.

She never hunted with me last fall, and she has never caught birds on her own. The only birds she has had in her mouth are the frozen ones. I'm working on finding a place in town that will let me trap pigeons, but for now all I have is the frozen ones.

Cjhills, I pretty much did exactly what you said during our session yesterday. We did a few bumper retrieves, and then I attached her cc and did one short toss with the frozen bird. She picked it up and I reeled her in on the cord. I'm telling you I could not for the life of me get this bird out of her mouth. I tried pinching, I tried pressing her gums against her teeth. I tried giving her a chunk of venison pepperette (her absolute favorite thing). Nothing would make her release, and the only reason I got the bird back is because she bit off and swallowed the legs. Fingers crossed they pass through her without any issues.

I texted my breeder last night and he recommended I force fetch her. He said he would video call me and walk me through the steps as I go along.

[jmez]

If she's trying to eat frozen birds don't give her a hot bird, it will be gone!! Try blowing forcefully into her ear as soon as she comes back. You will have to be quick, she'll relax her mouth right when you do it.

If that doesn't work actually shove the bird down her throat, most will release with one of these two methods.

Sent from my moto g power 5G - 2023 using Tapatalk

[gonehuntin']

Garrison has given you some very good advice. Here's the thing about a BIRD EATER: IF they become confirmed bird eaters, most can never be broken of it, but to a degree, can be controlled. Let's hope yours is not one of these but she certainly is displaying early signs of it. It would be interesting to see what she would do if you cut the wings off of your frozen bird, taped them to a dummy, and threw that for her. Try it and see what she does.

Many times bird eating or mishandling of birds is the product of a bad recall. If a dog immediately picks up a bird and quickly returns with it, you usually won't have a problem.

If it truly is a problem, and I'm not sure it is, send the dog to a pro even if he's 80 hours away. A lot of pro's won't take a bird eater. It is, in general, a losing proposition for them. First, it can be a vey brutal process and many pro's simply won't subject a dog to it. Second, they will NEVER if they're honest, guarantee the results. And thirdly, even if the dog may not eat birds for them, as soon as it sees you it may start again. Very, very, few amateurs can ever handle and deal with a bird eater.

Here is my guess though. The dog is young and you probably didn't shoot any birds over her last year, so these are the FIRST birds she has ever seen and they can hold a mystical aura over a dog. Sometimes when they have a lot of shot birds over them, the problem goes away. I'd try her on clip wing pigeons and I don't care what you have to do to get one. Clip the wing feathers on one side and let the dog chase and catch it. See what she does. If she stands on it and tears it apart, you have a real problem, one that only a Pro can probably cure. I don't think she will. I think she may pick it up and play with it so have her on a CC. If that is indeed the reaction, you simply have youngster excited over her first feathers and the problem will definitely go away with experience.

You can try force fetching the dog and indeed, Evan Graham is the guru on it. He uses the old traditional program where no steps are skipped, as many do today. It is a very difficult program for more amateur trainers to master and master correctly, but it may help your problem IF YOU DON'T LET THE PROBLEM GET WORSE IN THE MEANTIME.

What your dog is doing is actually freezing or clamming on the bird. Once he gets it, he won't give it up. That is different that eating the bird but just as hard to cure. I NEVER cured a confirmed freezing dog, but I could control it TO A DEGREE. It's interesting that you said his eyes looked glazed. Good observation. I have one like that that a client bought and put on my truck. They were making a run for National Derby Champion (Labrador) with him until the freezing got so bad he couldn't finish a trial. My client bought him cheap, without my consent, and put him on my truck with another of his I was training. I won two Qualifyings with him and got an Open 4th before I retired but it was a battle at every trial. When I retired, my Vet's and I were working on a theory that he froze because of hypoglycemia. When he got a bird his eyes would glaze over, he'd sit and stare up into my face like he wanted to release it but couldn't. This brings up a crucial point: IF A DOG ISN'T SITTING AND ISN'T HOLDING HIS HEAD UP, LOOKING INTO YOUR EYES, YOU WON'T GET THE BIRD! Anyhow, at the trials we were trying to dose the dog with honey or maple syrup before he ran but we were in the infant stages and trying to see if there was a correct dosage. We never had time to verify our findings.

I'd try that with yours. Give his a large dose of honey or something sugary and see it you see a change.

I force fetch all of my dog's because it cleans up so many problems they MAY eventually incur. It gives them an entirely different attitude toward you and greatly increases the bond the dog has with you.

Enough old guy rambling. Good Luck and please let us know if you make any progress with him.

[cjhills]

I must be missing something here.
Has this dog been eating birds? Does she retrieve the bird to you or run off? Is eating birds a ongoing bad habit or is it just reacting to her first birds? My thinking was she has only had a few birds. A lot of young dogs will try to run off with their first birds and try to eat them. Many do not like to give up the bird. If she is allowing you to take the dummy she will probably learn to let you have the bird. If she brings the bird to you, I would do what I have to do to get it from her and try a few more birds. If she has been eating birds it may be a big deal. If not it may be a dominance thing or just reaction to her first birds. It may be making a big deal out of something that is small.
She may be improved by a force fetch. Just be aware what you have to do is not easy for a lot of owners. Realize what you have to do and be sure you are up to it Sometimes gets down right brutal. Starting and not finishing is worse than not starting at all. I've seen dogs seriously injured in force fetch. Many trainers have somebody else force their dogs. Good Luck..........Cj

[gonehuntin']

CJ, he only got the bird from the dog AFTER she had eaten the legs off it. I'm pretty much with you on this though: just, hopefully, a young and inexperienced dog's reaction to seeing a bird for the first time.

[cjhills]

Hard for me to see how she chews the leg off of a frozen bird without opening her mouth. I would get the bird from her.
I just think he needs to be aware of how tough it might be to do what a force fetch requires.
Maybe just another old man rambling........Cj

[RayGubernat]

Ontariofella -

I am not big on retrieving becasue I typically trial my dogs these days and really would rather not have them want to retrieve. However, I have had, in years past, two dogs that developed "hard mouth". I detected this on the first one when it chomped on shot birds and detected the "tendency" on the second one when working with wooden bucks and witnessing the chew marks on the wooden dowel.
My treatment was esentially the same for each dog.
For the first dog I ran some 6 penny finish nails through a quail so that the pointed ends stuck out in all directions. I then threw it for the dog and released it for the retrieve. It ran out, chomped down and immediately yelped and spit the bird out. I walked out, picked up the bird and called the dog over. I placed the bird in the dog's mouth and had the dog hold it for a bit(which he did VERY gingerly) and then asked for the bird and he delivered. Rinse and repeat over a few sessions and the dog learend that chomping down was not in its best interest.
For the second dog I ran some screws through the dowel portion of the buck. I had the dog take the buck from my hand and the instant he bit down, he spit it out. I then put the buck in his mouth and made him hold it(which he did VERY gingerly) and when I asked him to give he did. Again rinse and repeat until the dog would pick up the buck very gently. We then moved on to bumpers with wings attached. I put thumbtacks in the wings. The first dog he turned out to be pretty good retrieving pheasants but was always a little tough on quail. The second dog turned out to be a pretty decent retriever overall. I think perhaps I learned to identify the issue earlier on the second dog, leading to a better outcome.

Please remember that I was prepared to have each dog refuse to retrieve. I don't do waterfowl so it was never a big deal for me to go out and pick up the bird myself. This is a harsh correction and can absolutely turn a dog off from retrieving. Use caution.

RayG

[gonehuntin']

Ray cautioned you on this method and let me also. IF A DOG IS FORCE FETCHED, IT WORKS. If a dog is not force fetched, he may stop picking birds up completely. He will be afraid of them. Ray was honest about the problems it can cause. Wrapping a bird in barb wire, putting thump tacks around a bird, spiking a bird; they can all work but they can all cause huge problems. Don't do it unless as Ray says, you don't care if the dog retrieves or not.

[RayGubernat]

Gonehuntin said it well.

A quick story....

I lost my only dog some time back and was able to purchase a field trial reject for hunting. This was long before I got into trialing. Belle was an awesome bird dog who found and pointed literally hundreds of birds for me and my son. She had two flaws. She was rather soft for a pointer and would shut down if I got on her. Over the course of a year, she grew comfortable with us, learned to trust me and was able to take training without shutting down. That is probably the reason she washed out. The trainer had obviously pushed too hard with her and she didn't want to work for him. The second flaw was that she would NOT retrieve a bird. She did bumpers, kongs and wooden bucks like a machine, but absolutely would not touch a bird. Over the course of several years, I got her to retrieve the occasional pheasant and chuckar...but NEVER a quail. I finally found out that the trainer "corrected" her for diving in on planted quail. He fried the dog with an e-collar when she broke point and went for the bird. Probably more than once. That explained both the softness and the refusal to mouth birds. It took a whole lot of encouragement and patience to get her to even try to put a bird in her mouth and the first one was a chuckar that I popped the head off so it fluttered like crazy on the ground. She couldn't stand it and went after the bird. Boatloads of praise...but this was after several years of trying. She would often point dead, but only very occasionally would she retrieve.

One last fact/observation. The pedigree of this dog was off the charts. 36 AF champions and 18 Hall of Fame dogs in her 64 dog 5 generation pedigree and she went back to Guard Rail about seven times, including a three pretty close up, as I recall. That kind of pedigree and she still got messed up by harsh training. And this was back when pointers were a whole lot tougher mentally than they are today. BE CAREFUL.

RayG

[Garrison]

It seems these days we have many more that use this forum as a reference, rather than a place to ask questions. It would probably be an opportune time to layout some of the preventative techniques for those who are following along. Because as most have honestly expressed, the fixes which have less than great odds can be down right draconian in nature. I am hoping the best for the pup in question, and I have had a couple that were quite possessive at first chance at game too.

But you know the saying about an ounce of prevention:

No tug of war with the kids, no squeaky toys for the pup to chomp on, boundary setting from the very start (mine is mine, and what you think may be yours isn’t….everything is mine), a proper age appropriate introduction to birds where the prize can be shared without the immediate need to be taken away. Setting down a bowl of food and picking it up mid meal. Etc. Etc.

I know you all have more to add, would love to hear when and how you handle it from go to avoid this conundrum.

Garrison

[gonehuntin']

Great idea Garrison! Unfortunately, as a professional trainer, some of the dog's we are sent all ready have some problem the owner considers unsurmountable, that's why we get the dog and what keeps us in business. Mouth problems are very rare and I worked with quite a few of them, and can honestly say, I NEVER CURED ONE OF THEM. I'm talking about dog's with confirmed problems; clamming, crushing, eating, bird refusal, etc. I could CONTROL the problem, but it was NEVER cured and you never knew when it would rear it's ugly head.

I did raise a ton of pups myself, all for sale and profit and I never had a youngster I sold have a mouth problem. The key to this is primarily, COMMON SENSE. So here is the way I worked on pups with birds and as I say, never had one with a mouth problem. I will also warn you, I ABSOLUTELY believe, some problems are genetic. Every generation of some breedings seems to reproduce the same problem. The ONE problem that can never be overcome, and never controlled, is a dog with NO interest in live birds. Nothing you can ever do will make that dog a good hunting dog. Yes, you may MAKE them retrieve a bird, but they will always be prone to blinking a bird when the going gets really tough and they have to be dug out of impossible cover or tracked down. So, he is how I did it.

1). I started them chasing clip wing pigeons or quail at 5-6 weeks of age, both on land and wading water, if a retriever. As a group of pups, I sometimes would even let them catch the poor bird and maul it to death, which eight pups will do quickly BUT, I NEVER let them tear the bird apart and eat it. Only chase and catch the poor bird. Being a training bird in a kennel is NOT a life anyone would want.

2). The bird house. I always had about 100 pigeons, a few pheasant, and a flock of 50 mallards on hand in our flight houses and training pond. I loved taking the pups, one at a time, and turning them loose in the bird house. What excitement! For a minute there'd be confusion when the birds took to the air, then the pups would go crazy chasing and jumping for the birds. I did the same thing for flushing dog's and for pointing dog's. Perhaps this is a good time to explain whey POINTING DOG TRAINERS don't normally use this practice. If a dog is never allowed to catch a bird or chase a bird, it will never have much interest in catching and retrieving a bird. With pointing dog's, the balance is a delicate walk so I made sure that with pointing dog's only, after they were allowed to chase and catch a clip wing, they were worked into a bird on a CC in cover and encouraged to POINT the bird. I didn't dog this with flushing dog's believing the bird crazier they were, the better. I never field trialed pointing dog's, but I did retrievers. It was and IS my true belief, that a hunting dog that won't retrieve a bird, is only HALF a hunting dog. Thus, my method of training.

3). From the start, from the first objects the pup retrieved, real of manufactured, I WOULD NEVER PULL AN OBJECT FROM THE PUP'S MOUTH. I always had an 1/8" CC on them to reel them in, I never let them escape or never ran them down. That a moot point today because at my age, I have a hard time running down a snail. I would toss the object and when the pup brought it back, praising him all the way, and all the way commanding HERE, and GENTLY pulling him in. When I had the pup and tell him "GOOD DOG, GOOD DOG", rubbing his ears or back and making a big fuss over it. Then, quick as a flash, I'd gently pinch the upper jowls against his sharp, needle like teeth, and firmly but not loudly, command "DROP". I always used DROP and not GIVE, because I though DROP was a sharper and more distinct command. Then, I'd put the bird or dummy where he couldn't get it, usually a training vest pocket, and tell them how great they were. I NEVER let them jump up at the bird or dummy and hang onto it. If you WANT to develop a hard mouth, just let a pup hang onto an object and pull him around or lift him by it, which some clueless people find incredibly cute.

4}. NEVER let the pup have a training bumper or bird, run off with it, and tear it apart or eat it. I do let pup's have toys with ANY SQUEAKER REMOVED, for their own and run around with it. If I want that toy, I do it the same way: Pinch the upper jowls and command drop. I try never to confuse the pup's free or play time in the house with training. They are like us: they need breaks or vacations from the training regimen.

5). Never use large object's for a pup. In other words, don't throw ducks or pheasant for an 8-10 week old pup. The harder they have to hang onto an object, the firmer the grip, and the more apt they are to develop a hard mouth. Match the retrieving object to the size of the pup.

6). And finally, I hated using FROZEN birds and in fact DIDN'T, and NEVER USED OLD, MUSHY BIRDS. A frozen bird is big, hard to carry, and can promote hard mouth or make pups want to drag and not carry a bird.THINK, THINK, THINK! Do YOU like carrying frozen things around in your mouth? Certainly not. It's uncomfortable and for a pup, hard to do.
Few things will promote hard mouth or bird eating faster than using old, chewed up, mushy birds. Especially, if you tear the bird away from the pup and don't make him release it on his own. I know people are inherently cheap, but save money on something else, not fresh birds. A pup that's allowed to tear a bird apart or eat parts of it, can set your training back years and possible do irreparable damage to the dog. Well, that's it, that is what I did and was very successful doing it. I'll just leave you with these final words: COMMON SENSE, AND THINK, THINK, THINK!

[Sharon]

Well that was a great read today. Thank you gentlemen.

[Chemist]

I am a little surprised you were not able to get her to drop the bird by pinching her flank. I had one dog that did not like to drop that would let go when I pinched his flank. But when I "pinched", I would grasp his flank almost like giving a handshake, rotate by 90 degrees and then start lifting upward, while commanding drop. The first couple times I did it with him his feet would start to rise off the ground but after that he would drop when I started to turn my hand 90 degrees and then started dropping on command.