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AKC Senior Hunter
Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2025 8:32 am
by NC Quailhunter
I am getting ready to run one of my dogs at the SH level for the first time. I know the rules but there are a lot of unwritten things that you are allowed to do and things that are frowned upon.
I am looking to pick everyone's brains about these types of things, so I don't violate some of them and be the reason that we get picked.
I appreciate the help.
Re: AKC Senior Hunter
Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2025 9:31 am
by Sharon
One lesson I learned the hard way.... The dog can not relocate on its own. My dog was on point. The birds left for about 30 feet. The dog relocated before I could get there. "PLease pick up your dog." (Story based on my experience.) Now if I was hunting that is what I would want my dog to do but.... Also make sure your dog will back another dog.
Re: AKC Senior Hunter
Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2025 10:43 am
by NC Quailhunter
He backs pretty reliably so I am lucky there. I didn't know about that flush and he had to stand there. They looked at it as a stop to flush I guess. Can you whoa him in that situation?
Yes! If you are near enough.
Re: AKC Senior Hunter
Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2025 10:57 am
by slistoe
I judge in Canada but the US rules are very similar.
From the AKC rulebook:
A dog should be credited for relocating on its own
when it can be demonstrated it is attempting to pin
the bird. The dog may also relocate on command of its
handler, but the dog should not creep after or trail a bird
that the handler is attempting to flush.
Now every judge will have a slightly different interpretation of what that looks like on the ground, but essentially once you move in on the dog he will not move on his own - only when directed to do so by the handler. Prior to you coming in to the picture the dog is on his own to decide how to stay on terms with his bird - but in no circumstance would the dog be excused for movement that causes the bird to flush. A hard relocate and pin on a bird that has moved looks classy - a creep on a stationary bird to get closer is a detraction from the performance IMO.
Re: AKC Senior Hunter
Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2025 12:51 pm
by Steve007
Take a look at this book, and see if you can find it less expensively than $50. That said, I think it would be worth 50 and then some. I have put two MH titles on dogs (one a FC, but there was some retraining involved) and found this book to be extremely worthwhile in guiding me through. Book is out of print, but if you can find a used copy, do so. You cannot have mine.
https://www.amazon.com/QUALIFY-Successf ... 0964767147
Re: AKC Senior Hunter
Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2025 2:12 pm
by Sharon
slistoe wrote: ↑Fri Oct 03, 2025 10:57 am
I judge in Canada but the US rules are very similar.
From the AKC rulebook:
"A dog should be credited for relocating on its own
when it can be demonstrated it is attempting to pin
the bird. The dog may also relocate on command of its
handler, but the dog should not creep after or trail a bird
that the handler is attempting to flush."
Now every judge will have a slightly different interpretation of what that looks like on the ground, but essentially once you move in on the dog he will not move on his own - only when directed to do so by the handler. Prior to you coming in to the picture the dog is on his own to decide how to stay on terms with his bird - but in no circumstance would the dog be excused for movement that causes the bird to flush. A hard relocate and pin on a bird that has moved looks classy - a creep on a stationary bird to get closer is a detraction from the performance IMO.
Now that makes me even more annoyed about what happened to me.
The dog did relocate on its own and pinned the bird before I got there and held his point. The judge said "not acceptable." Wish you were judging my dog.
Re: AKC Senior Hunter
Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2025 2:46 pm
by slistoe
Sharon wrote: ↑Fri Oct 03, 2025 2:12 pm
slistoe wrote: ↑Fri Oct 03, 2025 10:57 am
I judge in Canada but the US rules are very similar.
From the AKC rulebook:
"A dog should be credited for relocating on its own
when it can be demonstrated it is attempting to pin
the bird. The dog may also relocate on command of its
handler, but the dog should not creep after or trail a bird
that the handler is attempting to flush."
Now every judge will have a slightly different interpretation of what that looks like on the ground, but essentially once you move in on the dog he will not move on his own - only when directed to do so by the handler. Prior to you coming in to the picture the dog is on his own to decide how to stay on terms with his bird - but in no circumstance would the dog be excused for movement that causes the bird to flush. A hard relocate and pin on a bird that has moved looks classy - a creep on a stationary bird to get closer is a detraction from the performance IMO.
Now that makes me even more annoyed about what happened to me.
The dog did relocate on its own and pinned the bird before I got there and held his point. The judge said "not acceptable." Wish you were judging my dog.
Was this a Hunt Test or a Field Trial?
Re: AKC Senior Hunter
Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2025 9:29 am
by Sharon
Ah. Good question. It was a trial.
Re: AKC Senior Hunter
Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2025 4:00 pm
by slistoe
Therein lies the difference
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Re: AKC Senior Hunter
Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2025 7:12 am
by NC Quailhunter
Steve007 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 03, 2025 12:51 pm
Take a look at this book, and see if you can find it less expensively than $50. That said, I think it would be worth 50 and then some. I have put two MH titles on dogs (one a FC, but there was some retraining involved) and found this book to be extremely worthwhile in guiding me through. Book is out of print, but if you can find a used copy, do so. You cannot have mine.
https://www.amazon.com/QUALIFY-Successf ... 0964767147
I will definitely check it out. I hope to find a copy for under 50 bucks. Thank you.
Re: AKC Senior Hunter
Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2025 7:15 am
by NC Quailhunter
What about any other handler things that are unwritten. Like being able to hold the dogs collar when he has established his back. Also being able to whoa him into a back. Can I whoa him if there is a stop to flush situation presented?
These are really the type of things I am unsure of.
Re: AKC Senior Hunter
Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2025 9:05 am
by Sharon
NC Quailhunter wrote: ↑Mon Oct 06, 2025 7:15 am
What about any other handler things that are unwritten. Like being able to hold the dogs collar when he has established his back. Also being able to whoa him into a back. Can I whoa him if there is a stop to flush situation presented?
These are really the type of things I am unsure of.
My opinion.... I didn't test my dogs much, but trialed them where competition was involved. However, even for tests the more the dog shows he knows what to do without the handler's control the better imo.
"Like being able to hold the dogs collar when he has established his back.".... not a good idea ,but ....
"being able to whoa him into a back"... not a good idea ,but if essential then.....
"Can I whoa him if there is a stop to flush situation presented?" ..... yes, but then again it would be better if the dog was trained to do that on his own.
In tests ,doing any of the 3 things you mentioned still MIGHT get you a pass but in a trial highly unlikely.
Good to get some conversation going here on this subject. I'm no expert . ( I did win the Ontario BIrd Dog Association events sometimes.
)
Re: AKC Senior Hunter
Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2025 4:44 am
by cjhills
After my first 2 MH dogs I quit SH. Allowing the dogs to do things in SH that will fail them in MH seems counterproductive to me. It does not take dogs long to learn that you don't have much control in tests.
I let some kids run my young dogs in JH.
I just start out training for MH. Except for show dogs who only need a JH.........Cj
Re: AKC Senior Hunter
Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2025 5:38 pm
by NC Quailhunter
Thank you for the replies. The example of holding the collar during the back sequence I know is permissible as I have been told this by judges and people that have passed it.
The other two examples I am unsure of so I will as at the test.
As far as MH that is a goal for later. I know he does most of the tasks for MH but I am not sure the handler is ready so I will go one step at a time.
Thanks for the replies again and if anyone thinks of some handler tips let me know.
Re: AKC Senior Hunter
Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2025 11:13 pm
by oldbeek
Sharon wrote: ↑Fri Oct 03, 2025 9:31 am
One lesson I learned the hard way.... The dog can not relocate on its own. My dog was on point. The birds left for about 30 feet. The dog relocated before I could get there. "PLease pick up your dog." (Story based on my experience.) Now if I was hunting that is what I would want my dog to do but.... Also make sure your dog will back another dog.
That is why I dropped out of NSTRA with my new Brittany. He relocates if the bird makes an attempt to move. He is very solid on point but will not allow a bird to leave a bush without me flushing it. He is a natural pointer, backer and retriever. He even healed without training him.He is to good of a quail dog to screw up playing trial games with him. He knows what he wants to do and does not take criticism well. He even growls at me if he knows he is right.
Re: AKC Senior Hunter
Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2025 9:27 am
by Sharon
"He even growls at me if he knows he is right." quote oldbeek
LOL aren't dogs amazing?
Re: AKC Senior Hunter
Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2025 3:38 pm
by oldbeek
Sharon wrote: ↑Sat Oct 11, 2025 9:27 am
"He even growls at me if he knows he is right." quote oldbeek
LOL aren't dogs amazing?
He knows how to handle a bird his way. Don't screw with him. If he feels he is wrong he lays on his back with belly open. That is his, I am sorry pose. When he was a pup he would do that to tell me he just couldn't jump up into my 4wd. Would love to post pictures but I forgot how