Pointers are incredible!! -- Split Topic

wilsonwires · Post by **wilsonwires** » Thu Feb 15, 2007 7:03 pm

I just read a article that you posted in versatile dogs and I was surprised to hear someone talk about another mans breed when he is running a breed that was derived from 7 different crossings(1)Italian Pointer(2)Foxhound(3)Bloodhound(4)Greyhound(5)Newfoundland(6)Setter(7)Bulldog.Before making accusations and talking about someones elses breed you should always cover your backside because sooner or later you are going to get bit.By the way which one of the 7 crosses in your line do you run.

HUTCH · Post by **HUTCH** » Thu Feb 15, 2007 8:00 pm

What????

wilsonwires · Post by **wilsonwires** » Thu Feb 15, 2007 8:22 pm

This reply was to yawallac and any others that was saying that my dog Wilson is not a full blooded wirehair.I find it appalling and low life for someone to post such as what he has posted on versatile dogs .com.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Thu Feb 15, 2007 8:24 pm

Wilson,

Just how much Pointer would you estimate is in your line of "GWPs"?

Just curious. :roll:

BTW, why not go over there and confront the DD folks.

wilsonwires · Post by **wilsonwires** » Thu Feb 15, 2007 8:46 pm

About as much pointer as you have bulldog or runaway greyhound in yours

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Thu Feb 15, 2007 9:03 pm

Fair enough.

BTW, I don't have to cover my butt on anything. The discussion was not started by me. There were examples of many dogs posted. The crux of the discussion was why there was a split between the DD and GWP. The DD folks consider your line to be the "poster child". Personally, I don't like the split of DD/GWP or DK/GSP. But if you would like to offer an opinion on that thread why don't you, instead of trying to start something here.

What would you call these?

wilsonwires · Post by **wilsonwires** » Thu Feb 15, 2007 9:12 pm

The reason why I even said anything is because you posted pictures of my dog and my pups and you where down grading my blood line and you do not know the first thing about me or my kennel-what gives you the right to do such?vdd and gwp people have been feuding for years and I could care less.But when someone deliberatly tries to spread slanderous remarks about my blood line I get very defensive

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Thu Feb 15, 2007 9:16 pm

Alright, bring it to an end please. Ross, I know Ron's dog personally, have handled it and many of its kin on Greg Dixon's string. I was not there when it was bred, but it does not look or act like pointer to me. Lots of people have jumped to that conclusion when white coats have appeared in the US population of German breeds, because the coats that came out of Germany after the war were the Goerring "camoflage coats" and that is what some people think a "pure" German dog must look like. But there were white coated wirehairs in Germany dating back at least to the 40's, I have a book cover scanned on my computer at the office of white coated wirehairs that I will post tomorrow that are identical to Rons, the book published in the early 60's and the dogs from the 40's.

Here is Ron's dog, backing my dog:

As for whatever arguments that have gone on over on the versatile dog boards and whatever the DD people may have said, the "D" people have been engaging in negative advertising based on their claim of purer bloodlines than the "G" people for many years. You would too if you were trying to sell dogs out of a gene pool as tiny as theirs, and capture some of the market for American bred dogs.

I have never met Ross personally, Ron, nor you personally I guess, just your dogs. But have corresponded with Ross. I gotta say, the two of you have alot more in common from a dog standpoint than you have things that separate you, namely good dogs and an understanding of what it takes to make em.

Leave any versatile dog board arguments over there. Those people have more "sharpness" to them than dog people should have. Over here, we like em all. Really. It sounds to me as though some third parties have been stirring the pot between the two of you, and doing a good job. Don't buy into it, it is what they want, for US breeders to start pointing false fingers at each other.

Sure pointers are made up of a number of crosses. So are wires. So are GSP's. So are every other sporting dog breed. All of it done before the war to end all wars.

Either of you ever get tired of your dogs I will take em. It would be a privilege.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Thu Feb 15, 2007 9:32 pm

Ron,

I will remove your dog from that site. Your name and your kennel name was never once mentioned. The picture was simply illustrating a point how the GWP "type" has changed since the 80s. It has. If the change was from selective breeding, I'll take your word for it. I really don't care. In fact, I think all pointing breeds would benefit from a little more EP! But that's just me. And I'm seriously considering your greyhound suggestion!

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Thu Feb 15, 2007 9:58 pm

But there were white coated wirehairs in Germany dating back at least to the 40's, I have a book cover scanned on my computer at the office of white coated wirehairs that I will post tomorrow that are identical to Rons,

John,

I would be very interested to see those pictures if you get the chance.

Thanks,
R.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Thu Feb 15, 2007 10:12 pm

Will do, tomorrow though. We also had a thread about a year and a half ago on the historic white coated GSP's. Among other things, I found a photo of a German hunter from I believe the 1870's with a dog that has the same coat color pattern as your black and white pointer Ross. Will try to locate that thread, the pictures are in the old GDF photo album, so if I can find the thread for you the pictures will still be there, although not in the current album.

In summary, there was quite alot of variation in coat color among German dogs until the thirties. Feldmarshall Goerring however, was in charge of breeding for shorthairs, and he favored the camoflage coat. He ordered all of the white coats, solid livers, blacks, put down, and they were. Some were preserved at Hege Haus, others were preserved in other countries, such as the Moesgaard coat in Denmark. When the GI's started bringing dogs back after the war, what came over were the Goerring coated dogs, and so we all thought that was what a GSP was supposed to be. In fact, there is much greater diversity in coat color and always has been, including a rare few tricolors among the German dogs. All in Der Deutsch Kurzhaar.

Now, that is GSP's, but I am willing to bet that a little digging would show the same history among GWP's. The book I have discussed five different wirehair types, all I remember is the Lump type, which had a distinctive lump on the nose. But there were white coats and they were identical to the coats on Ron's dogs (also by the way, the coats on dogs owned by Sue and Bruce Mueller, and Greg Dixon, all friends of mine who have been adamantly vocal for decades about keeping pointer out of the German breeds).

Drahtsundbraats · Post by **Drahtsundbraats** » Thu Feb 15, 2007 10:43 pm

yawwalc,
You're getting beat on here!!!

You would too if you were trying to sell dogs out of a gene pool as tiny as theirs, and capture some of the market for American bred dogs.

I don't mind the opinions but lets get some facts straight. The DD genepool is several times larger that the GWP world. If you count the DD Federation (13 countries), it dwarfs the GWP. I'm not making any comments about the dogs just about the facts. There were 3300 registered pups in the VDD in Germany alone last year.

The GWP has absolutely changed since 1969 when I got my first. White dogs were rare then-they are common now-I would bet 30% of the breed.

The current standard for the DD prohibits white dogs-that standard wasn't influenced by anyone from the 1940's. White dogs would stick out during any kind of forest and water work. That's of little concern to those that see the breed as only a field dog.

The GWP has been adapted to suit the North American hunter and many are quite different than the DD. The biggest differences are probably coats and size. The biggest reason that the two will continue to diverge is organizational-very few GWP breeder/owners are committed to the versatile dog. Except for a few serious NAVHDA enthusiasts, the GWP has and will continue to become a retrieving field dog.

the "D" people have been engaging in negative advertising based on their claim of purer bloodlines than the "G" people for many years

I have never heard claims of "purer" blood-that's ridiculous. The only claim is that the VDD has and will always stick to the versatile agenda.
It evaluates dogs-it doesn't let competion decide the issues. Within the GWP community, there is relatively little interest in breeding and proving generations of versatile dogs. Most GWPs are of questionable value as versatile dogs because relatively few breeders prioritize it.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:53 am

The book cover with the white coated wirehairs from decades ago that I mentioned was saved in .pdf format so I cannot post it to the album (not .jpg). I emailed it to Yawallac. If anyone else wants a copy, please send me a PM with your email address. You will need Acrobat Reader (free download) to open it.

No one is beating on Yawallac. I am merely trying to tell him that there is more in common between he and Ron Wilson than I think he understands.

In searching for that book cover, I did find one picture from the 40's I posted some time ago, that I though Yawallac and others might appreciate:

Funny thing, I am not seeing that dished face and level tail that was supposed to have been a feature of those dogs of yesteryear.[/img]

Duane M · Post by **Duane M** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:57 am

Drahtsundbraats wrote:yawwalc,

I have never heard claims of "purer" blood-that's ridiculous. The only claim is that the VDD has and will always stick to the versatile agenda.

ROTFLMAO at that one, you really should come and watch the DD breeder who has been at the past couple of state DNR seminars I have worked. Talk about an elitist attitude this guy is the poster boy for Euro a$$hole dog people.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:11 am

Here is a quote from the Vereinigter CanAm Deutsch Kurzhaar site, FAQ section, www.canamdk.org :

Question: If I were a VCDKK member and my Great Grandmother's dying wish was for me to breed my DK to "OL Blue's One Shot Wonder"; the AKC, NAVHDA and NSTRA ten time Champion, can I register the pups through the DKV or VCDKK or will I be shown the door?

See, here is the deal, I own OL' Blue's One Shot Wonder, the ten time FT Champion, well ok, it is only five championships so far, he is young. And his real name is FC Willows on the Spot.

It just never stops.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:20 am

John's pic:

Duane M · Post by **Duane M** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:28 am

Must be some Danish blood in them dogs LOL.

John thanks for that old pic as someone who works with a man that has been breeding Ch Pointers for 50+ years I always get a kick out of the "the high tail is new" crowd. Cliff has pics from the early 60s showing all high tails on those Pointers and Setters.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:28 am

Thanks Ross.

PS You can tell from the price how old that book is. A dollar was worth a dollar.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:37 am

Speaking of, here is the original, Moesgaard's Ib, from Denmark. He is my pups great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather. I think that count is right. Look at the coats, where do you suppose that "Moesgaard" color came from. Not Rip Rap.

http://www.gsp-photos.us/Field%20Champi ... ard_ib.htm

Drahtsundbraats · Post by **Drahtsundbraats** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:01 pm

ROTFLMAO at that one, you really should come and watch the DD breeder who has been at the past couple of state DNR seminars I have worked. Talk about an elitist attitude this guy is the poster boy for Euro a$$hole dog people.

There are folks like that in every organization. I don't bother to make arguments on the exceptions-its a waste of time.

The book written by Compere appeared in the late 1960's. Mr. Compere was hardly an expert on the breed. I have a copy somewhere and if I remember correctly, the training section mentions little if anything about water work, tracking and other versatile tasks. Most GWPs come from Danish dogs. You can see these dogs at http://www.ruhaar.dk/ If you see a solid white dog that looks like a Pointer, please post it-I couldn't find one and have never seen one in my several visits to Denmark.
Dogs in Finland are light in color but I have never seen a white one.
How are those white dogs in the duckblind?-maybe the Lab boys are missing something.

I don't know why we waste our time with this subject. Except for a very few die-hard versatile folks in NAVHDA, the two breeds are on seperate courses and offer the US hunters good alternatives. If someone comes to me and wants a big running plains dog, or FT capable, and is not so interested in water, fur and all the rest-I would highly recommend that they find a good GWP field breeding with generations of such dogs. If they want a good close to medium foot hunting dog with emphasis on water, fur, as well as the field work, etc, I would recommend them to a good sources for a DD with many generations of such proven dogs. There is plenty of room for both. You maximize your chances when you find breeders that have your own priorities. GWP breeders have the option of specializing and altering the breed-VDD breeders don't. It is unfortunate that so many GWPs are show dogs and casual hunting dogs of unknown ability-but that is the price of the freedom in the AKC system.
As proof that the US breeders have little interest in the original breed, not one of them knows anything about German breeders-few have ever even taken the trip-in the 48 years since the breed was recognized. I rest my case.

I can't think of one GWP that I would like to see in a DD pedigree. And the opposite is true as well-hardcore GWP field folks could care less about DDs. As far as I see, everyone is happy to pursue their agenda. Many GWP enthusiasts, I suspect, don't even like the original breed and are very proud of what they have made of the breed. That is why we see GWPs that have been bred to imitate in style and performance one of the founding breeds, such as the dog mentioned. The whole reason the breed originated was to differentiate itself in use and physical stature. It seems ridiculous to breed GWPs to mimick EPs or GSPs but I am a traditionalist. The few successful GWP versatile kennels have for the most part used foreign import/pedigree quite a bit. Why not-decades of talent there.

See, here is the deal, I own OL' Blue's One Shot Wonder, the ten time FT Champion, well ok, it is only five championships so far, he is young. And his real name is FC Willows on the Spot.

Congrats!! sounds like quite a dog.
Breeding an AKC dog to a VDD dog (for example) is not allowed. Not because AKC dogs are bad but because nothing is known about the lineage of the AKC dog. German clubs are "breeders Guilds". They exist to supply information for the breeding community. Few AKC breeders know very much about the pedigrees they breed in comparison to the VDD breeders. The VDD is just as suspect of dogs from other FCI clubs.
The AKC is not recognized by the FCI-and they have no interest in being recognized.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:09 pm

I know Dixon pretty well by now. He got those NFCs on the wires, pure and simple, by being a *dang* good bird dog man.

FWIW,

Drahtsundbraats · Post by **Drahtsundbraats** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:36 pm

I know Dixon pretty well by now. He got those NFCs on the wires, pure and simple, by being a *dang* good bird dog man.

Unfortunately, the breed is supposed to be more than a bird dog.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:46 pm

Drahtsundbraats wrote:
I know Dixon pretty well by now. He got those NFCs on the wires, pure and simple, by being a *dang* good bird dog man.
Unfortunately, the breed is supposed to be more than a bird dog.

As you said, they're a different breed from the DD and the breeders are taking them in the direction that they want to go. Different stud book & No reciprocity = Different breed.

My comment was meant to address those that were using Wilson as an example of a cross breed. Effectively, I'm a character witness for the accused.

AceofSpades41 · Post by **AceofSpades41** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:46 pm

Man this is one of those agree to disagree conversations. Glad to see you back John.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:54 pm

Thanks it was almost as cold in South Texas as it is up here, and they were chasing illegal immigrants right through the trial grounds.

Drahtsundbraats · Post by **Drahtsundbraats** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:03 pm

As you said, they're a different breed from the DD and the breeders are taking them in the direction that they want to go. Different stud book & No reciprocity = Different breed.

There aren't many folks that are that honest. Its pretty obvious but folks don't like to admit it. I think its a big mistake for the versatiles to want to be "almost Pointers". The Pointer will allways be the premier bird dog-
why breed a versatile to act and look like a longtail- but that's just my opinion.

There is no reciprocity, but nothing has prevented any US breeder from importing all the dogs they want. Fact is, they don't want to-which seems to me that they see the breeds as seperate also.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:08 pm

Can I ask how this thread went from Pointers Are Incredible, to DD's and GWP's Are Two Different Breeds? Maybe if someone wants to urge that proposition, they could start a new thread so everyone will know from the title what the subject of discussion is.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:11 pm

Drahtsundbraats wrote:
As you said, they're a different breed from the DD and the breeders are taking them in the direction that they want to go. Different stud book & No reciprocity = Different breed.
There aren't many folks that are that honest. Its pretty obvious but folks don't like to admit it. I think its a big mistake for the versatiles to want to be "almost Pointers". The Pointer will allways be the premier bird dog-
why breed a versatile to act and look like a longtail- but that's just my opinion.

There is no reciprocity, but nothing has prevented any US breeder from importing all the dogs they want. Fact is, they don't want to-which seems to me that they see the breeds as seperate also.

I may often be wrong, but I try to be honest about it

....

I know hardly anything about GWPs and less about DDs. I get a lot of the same arguments in GSPs. I often wonder if it is just the two groups hanging out in different places.

Best,

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:12 pm

Wonderful idea John. I was about to ask the same thing.

Ezzy

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:14 pm

Wagonmaster wrote:Can I ask how this thread went from Pointers Are Incredible, to DD's and GWP's Are Two Different Breeds? Maybe if someone wants to urge that proposition, they could start a new thread so everyone will know from the title what the subject of discussion is.

I'll PM a moderator and see if we can get the thread split.

Best,

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:21 pm

Greg Jennings wrote: I'll PM a moderator and see if we can get the thread split.

Done! But I wonder if it will take Grant's "GDF DemiGod" permissions to do it the actual work.

Best,

Drahtsundbraats · Post by **Drahtsundbraats** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:26 pm

I think it came from Ron Wilson's intervention. Don't split it-the thread is don. I think.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:30 pm

I'll let it go as long as it gets back on track.

Ezzy

Post by **Ayres** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 5:29 pm

Greg Jennings wrote:
Greg Jennings wrote: I'll PM a moderator and see if we can get the thread split.
Done! But I wonder if it will take Grant's "GDF DemiGod" permissions to do it the actual work.

Best,

AFAIK, yes.

Mods don't have "split thread" powers like Grant. And, seeing how even the off kilter part of this thread has remained primarily civil, it deserves a split and not a delete. I'll PM Grant to get his viewpoint and action taken to preserve this thing.

Post by **grant** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 12:46 pm

Cool... I've got Demigod powers!!! What else can I do with these!?

grant

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 2:42 pm

Hey Grant!!

You hijacked my thread!!!!

Post by **grant** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 3:42 pm

Gun Dog Forum

Pointers are incredible!! -- Split Topic

cross breeds

breedings

crossbreed

crossbreeds