DD Coat Variation

mtlee · Post by **mtlee** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 6:48 pm

I've noticed a substantial amount of coat variation among DDs while doing research on the internet. Some look like GSPs with a few chin hairs, while others look like an old English Sheepdog. How much difference does this make in their resistance to cold? Would a "shaggy" DD be able to take colder water temps than a more tight coated less shaggy DD? Is the undercoat more important? Just curious.....

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 7:49 pm

A shaggy DD coat is not consistant with the breed standard. Sure you weren't looking at Griff's? To answer your question, a shaggy coat gives no more protection than a dense coat. DD's should have a short, dense and stiff, wiry feeling coat. The coats or ears collect no briars at all, but look out for the beard, even though it's short.

mtlee · Post by **mtlee** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 7:54 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:A shaggy DD coat is not consistant with the breed standard. Sure you weren't looking at Griff's? To answer your question, a shaggy coat gives no more protection than a dense coat. DD's should have a short, dense and stiff, wiry feeling coat. The coats or ears collect no briars at all, but look out for the beard, even though it's short.

Thanks for the info...

Margaret · Post by **Margaret** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:09 pm

I understand very difficult to retain correct coat due to background of the dogs, so it can keep cropping up too shaggy or not wiry enough.

mtlee · Post by **mtlee** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:16 pm

mtlee wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:A shaggy DD coat is not consistant with the breed standard. Sure you weren't looking at Griff's? To answer your question, a shaggy coat gives no more protection than a dense coat. DD's should have a short, dense and stiff, wiry feeling coat. The coats or ears collect no briars at all, but look out for the beard, even though it's short.

Thanks for the info... I've got 2 links below of the variation I was talking about. I am in no way associated with this kennel...just one that is closer to home so I checked it out.

AceofSpades41 · Post by **AceofSpades41** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 9:30 pm

mtlee

Beautiful dogs.....

mtlee · Post by **mtlee** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 9:33 pm

This is more my speed...if I ever get a DD I would like it to look like this

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 10:02 pm

Wirehairs look like that if they are groomed.

Ezzy

Drahtsundbraats · Post by **Drahtsundbraats** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 10:24 pm

There are variations in coat in all the wire breeds. IMO, there are two main reasons..the genetics of various foundation breeds that keep cropping up and the unimportance of coat among too many in the breeding community. It is possible to breed pretty consistent coats. There are line bred kennels in Germany that rarely see a fluffy coat. Many dogs that look too long in coat are actually badly groomed. The wire coat is a "wasting coat" that needs to be removed when it is fully grown out. If it is not physically removed (either in the brush or with a brush) it will just remain in the follicle. Once it is removed, a new hair will grow.

The best coats are 1-1 1/4 inch long, extremely dense and just hard all over-right down over the toes. Most people make the mistake when selecting puppies to take the one that has the cute beard at 8 weeks. In my experience, its the pup with just the hint of whiskers and a little fringe between the toes on the bottom of the feet that will have the better coat as an adult.

AceofSpades41 · Post by **AceofSpades41** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 11:06 pm

Drahtsundbraats

Do you have any pics that you can share

Helen · Post by **Helen** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:15 am

I like that one Mtlee. Where is she from?

Helen

mtlee · Post by **mtlee** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:02 am

Helen wrote:I like that one Mtlee. Where is she from?

Helen

I have no idea. I just come across pictures while I'm playing on my computer and save them if I like the dog. Sorry.

PAHunter · Post by **PAHunter** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:20 am

If you want to know more about DD's or to see additional photos of dogs check out http://www.vdd-gna.org/

The DD's ancestors include the Stichelhaar, pudelpointer, griffon, and the Deutsch-Kurzhaar. A DD's coat should be generally wiry and tightly fit, with a thick under wool and should have extended eyebrows and beard. Color variations include brown-Gray, black-gray and more rarely solid black or brown with or without white breast spots.

My dog looks like the one that mtlee posted except for a solid brown tail.
I usually only find burrs in his beard. Here in Pa we've had temps in the single digits lately and if my dog see's open water he's in it.

To me is funny how people get so concerned about the coat, I'm more concerned with hunting ability.

AceofSpades41 · Post by **AceofSpades41** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:40 am

Thanks PAHunter for the link and wealth of info.

mtlee · Post by **mtlee** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 12:54 pm

The main reason I asked about coat was this...

I think "fluffy" looking dogs just aren't as good looking as dogs with tight fitting coats. So, if there is no advantage to having a "fluffy" dog then I would do my best to get a pup who would have a high probability of developing a tight fitting coat. This, of course, is just my opinion. I am in no way knocking longer coats. If there was a functional difference in the 2 coats...say a longer coat was a much better insulator...I would get a dog with a longer coat for cold water. But, since there seems to be no functional advantage to the longer coat, why not pick the one that is most aesthetically pleasing to you, the owner?

PAHunter · Post by **PAHunter** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 1:13 pm

If a DD has a coat like I posted it's a great working coat for a dog. Very low maintenance. Wirehaired dogs don't shed like the short hairs, some occasional stripping to remove dead hairs is necessary.

I have some friends that have the longer coated DD's and they don't have any advantage over the desired coat. Their dogs require more coat maintenance to remove burrs, strip, and keep ice and snow building up of feet, ect. But once you see these dogs inaction you forget all about the few minutes of extra work.

I've seen DD's with the short, long, and tight fitting and haven’t noticed and difference in cold weather performance.

Drahtsundbraats · Post by **Drahtsundbraats** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 4:43 pm

I'm using a pic from a friends website with his permission. These are pups that are about 7-8 weeks old. Coats are still short-beard is just starting to show. This would be the pup I would be looking for-even at this age there can be some pretty good texture to the coats as well. You must know the history of the pedigree to really max your results.

There are just as many folks who like the longer coated dog. I don't judge the quality of coat by length but by harshness, density and coverage. The very good coats are hard and dense where it counts-on the leading edges--the feet, front legs and chest and rear stifle. This is where the brush can eat a dog up.

mtlee · Post by **mtlee** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 4:55 pm

Those are some good lucking pups...I wouldn't mind having one (or 3) of them.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 5:10 pm

Matt,

What are you thinking about? This is South Carolina! You'd never be able to hunt that dog here. It's too hot!! You need to get our "State Dog" to properly compliment that beautiful GSP! I can hook you up!!

Drahtsundbraats · Post by **Drahtsundbraats** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 5:16 pm

I took pics of my two year old after I came back from 19 days in ND. This young dog was down a minimum of 3 hours/day. She does have an extremely good coat. Her pads did get a little beat up but there wasn't a scuff or a scrape anywhere to be found. She was in the grass, brush and the duckblind as well as a lot of work in the sloughs.

I like this dog!!!

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 5:21 pm

...there wasn't a scuff or a scrape anywhere to be found.

DundB,

That's because they run so slow!

Hey, just teasing.

The undercoat on that dog in the picture is incredible. What a coat!

mtlee · Post by **mtlee** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 5:24 pm

Yawallac wrote:Matt,

What are you thinking about? This is South Carolina! You'd never be able to hunt that dog here. It's too hot!! You need to get our "State Dog" to properly compliment that beautiful GSP! I can hook you up!!

Ha..I know we don't see very extreme conditions here, especially not temperature wise. The main reason I'd be interested in a DD is because I like to duck hunt so much. My GSP went with me all season and had no problems...and every local breeder that I've talked to acts like I'm crazy for entertaining the thought that a Shorthair would get too cold in SC...but I just feel like a DD (or wirehair) could handle that "cold" SC water a little better and be just as good of an upland dog.

P.S. There are no quail in the Francis Marion National Forest (at least that I can find)

Drahtsundbraats · Post by **Drahtsundbraats** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 5:26 pm

yawallac,
At my age, this dog is about all I can keep up!! The last few years, I've really started to think whether I WANT to trudge over to a point 3-400 yds away. This girl is always in that 100-200 yard range where these old legs still have a chance of getting to those sharpies before they jump.

I've organized the paramedics for my first visit to the Idaho chukar hills this fall. Maybe they'll have a motorized conveyance for these old ankles

mtlee · Post by **mtlee** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 5:33 pm

Ross,

You heading up to the NAVHDA Carolinas Chapter tests March 10/11. I plan on being there...its my first one so I'm pretty exicited!

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 5:35 pm

Matt,

All kidding aside, the heat here would be a concern for me. It's frequently too hot to hunt for even my pointers. I would own a PP if it wasn't so warm during the majority of hunting season.

The water here is never too cold for GSPs. Most "local" breeders in SC don't have a clue what GSPs were even bred to do. The majority are converted Pointer/Setter guys that use labs for duck hunting anyway.

Maybe DundB can offer recommendations about temps and DDs.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 5:37 pm

Matt,

Heck ya! I'm testing that little GSP below in NA on Sunday. The UT dogs run on Saturday so you don't want to miss them. Should be some very good dogs there.

Drahtsundbraats · Post by **Drahtsundbraats** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 5:41 pm

Get the GSP. It will be a better much all around dog for your area. I have seen awesome work out of GSPs at the Invitational. Buy a vest for the occasional cold day.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 5:54 pm

GSP????

No, no, no, no! A Pointer is the perfect dog to compliment a South Carolina GSP! He already has his duck dog, now he needs a Pointer to find all those Francis Marion quail that ARE there!!

mtlee · Post by **mtlee** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:15 pm

Yawallac wrote:GSP????

No, no, no, no! A Pointer is the perfect dog to compliment a South Carolina GSP! He already has his duck dog, now he needs a Pointer to find all those Francis Marion quail that ARE there!!

Haha...well maybe you and your perfect pointer would like to come find some for me....I'll be going in the morning, we'll see if my luck changes.

AceofSpades41 · Post by **AceofSpades41** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 9:43 pm

Drahtsundbraats,

Thanks for the great pics those are some beautiful pups.

Richard *UT* · Post by Richard *UT* » Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:25 am

I used to think that the DD and GWP were "ugly" dogs and Never thought I would like the hair, Then at a trial I saw a GWP come off a field. Breath taking! Then and there I gained an appreciation for the "Ugly Dogs"

You just have to see them wet.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:32 am

Beware what Ywal is saying about the heat. DD's are NOT hot weather dogs. Mine absoultely melt in the heat. However, once is cools down.....

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 7:28 am

The solution to the heat is a # 10 blade in a clipper. Don't be shy, shave the whole thing down. If you are shy about it you will just have to do it again right away. Do it as soon as the weather gets warm in the spring. You may have to do it once or twice more during the summer.

It all grows back by fall, and if you have a liking for messing with a dog's coat, that is the time to take out your stripping comb, when it starts to come back. Shape it up real nice, then you can put the dog in a show or something when fall comes.

Drahtsundbraats · Post by **Drahtsundbraats** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 9:39 am

Gonna diagree with you on this one Wagonmaster. I guess if you don't mind having a ratty, washed out looking dog, you can do it. I would never clipper a wirehaired breed. Coat just turns dull, gets real soft, and difficult to get it to grow back. If you look at the longer guard hairs-you can see why. Its only the first 1/2 of the hair that is thick and harder-the 1/2 nearest the skin is a slender stalk. When you shave off the outer half all you have is basically undecoat and most of that will fall out in the warm weather. It would be better to strip the dog back real hard in May.
The heat problem is caused more by the undercoat in many dogs.

I think you get the right breed. Don't understand why anyone just wouldn't get the dog that's right for the conditions. Spare yourself the work-get an EP or a GSP (a white one of course!!).

PAHunter · Post by **PAHunter** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:59 am

I agree with Drahtsundbraats go with GSP if your worried about the heat.
I train my DD in the summer I work on birds at first light, then train in the water in the late evening. The rest of the time my DD's right beside me in airconditioned comfort.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:06 am

Ya, I spent alot of time worrying about perfect coat, pull out the table, strip here, strip there. Clipper works good. No affect at all on the coat. Not on a dog that has a good coat to start with. Try it.

mtlee · Post by **mtlee** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:48 am

PAHunter wrote:I agree with Drahtsundbraats go with GSP if your worried about the heat.
I train my DD in the summer I work on birds at first light, then train in the water in the late evening. The rest of the time my DD's right beside me in airconditioned comfort.

I have a GSP (the one in my avitar) and am very pleased with her...I just also like what I've researched/seen about DDs. I won't be getting another dog for a while but I like getting opinions and research in advance. Thanks for the comments!

Kirklan1 · Post by **Kirklan1** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:52 pm

Here are some pics of my pup Darko. He has what I would consider a pretty good/desirable coat. He can hunt in sub zero temperatures without any problems, but if it gets much over 50-60 degrees, he does tend to slow down a little and I really have to watch him. This is also in Utah where we have almost no humidity, I would imagine the heat would affect him more in SC.

Here he is on point while hunting some chukar this winter:

Got to love that beard!

Here is his coat @ ten weeks old:

The only place he picks up burs is in his beard. I would definately look for a tight, dense, "shorter" coat for your pup in SC.

mtlee · Post by **mtlee** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:39 pm

Do yall think that other dogs such as labs or chessies have too warm of a coat to be comfortable down south? Or, is it more of a concern with the DD because they will be covering lots of ground during upland hunts (something a retriever wouldn't typically do around here) on potentially warm days. Just curious because there are a million labs around here and I even see people with Newfoundlands and such. They seem to be doing fine.

PS Good looking pup Kirklan1

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:09 pm

Matt,

How many labs have you ever seen quail hunting in the south?

I was hunting Manchester a couple of months ago and a guy pulled in and let his lab out to hunt quail. My buddy and I just looked at each other. The guy walked over and said, "Heard there's quail here." I said "Yep." He then said it was his first time quail hunting ever and proceeded to hunt. This was mid-day (you don't hunt quail in the middle of the day here).

Well, he and his dog lasted about 45 min. and the dog was DONE! My buddy and I were just finishing our lunch break.

Matt, get a Pointer to hunt with that GSP. I'm telling you the combination is magical!

AceofSpades41 · Post by **AceofSpades41** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:27 pm

Kirklan1

Beautiful dog, great pics....

mtlee · Post by **mtlee** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:50 pm

Yawallac wrote:Matt,

How many labs have you ever seen quail hunting in the south?

I was hunting Manchester a couple of months ago and a guy pulled in and let his lab out to hunt quail. My buddy and I just looked at each other. The guy walked over and said, "Heard there's quail here." I said "Yep." He then said it was his first time quail hunting ever and proceeded to hunt. This was mid-day (you don't hunt quail in the middle of the day here).

Well, he and his dog lasted about 45 min. and the dog was DONE! My buddy and I were just finishing our lunch break.

Matt, get a Pointer to hunt with that GSP. I'm telling you the combination is magical!

You're really trying to sell me on this pointer idea Ross! Honestly I can't get another dog for a few years because of school...but when I do it will be a versatile breed or a pointer, definitely not a lab. I'm just curious on how much coat can effect a dog.

With all this talk, You're gonna have to show me what that pointer can do one day

Anaconda Pintler · Post by **Anaconda Pintler** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:52 pm

All this stuff about to hot is hogwash I moved to GA from Montana and my dogs have not missed a beat the heat does not bother them any more than the next dog, I hunt and train here right along side of your beloved pointers YAW and when it is to hot for my GWP's it is to hot for the pointer, setter, britt or any other breed my friends and I are working.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 6:35 am

Heeee heeee. Ok, whatever you say AP.