German Longhaired pointer

NC Quailhunter · Post by **NC Quailhunter** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:40 pm

Anyone here ever hear or see one of these dogs. I was reading a magazine about German Pointers and there was a small section about theis breed. I never heard of it but that isn't saying much.I was just curious about the breed and how they work.

Richard *UT* · Post by Richard *UT* » Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:10 pm

I have a pic of one from probably the same book as you have. That is the only time I have heard of the as well.

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:21 pm

I've seen pictures for years but they are really scarce in this country and I don't know much about them. Supposedly they were basically just a different coat on the german dogs.

Ezzy

Willie Hunter · Post by **Willie Hunter** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:25 pm

Google Images has several pictures.

mtlee · Post by **mtlee** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 9:26 pm

I saw one on a hunting show... I think it was an episode of Cast n Blast.

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:07 pm

I saw one at Wrenegade kennels this summer, I think Bob had it in for training. It looked to me somewhat like a liver setter or along the lines of a munsterlander.

Chip

Stump · Post by **Stump** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 4:55 am

Pretty dog they are

Google this breed You'll find a bunch on it

Richard *UT* · Post by Richard *UT* » Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:57 am

www.Birddogsforever.com has a podcast #49 where they talk to a breeder in Denmark. Here is the Link to the episode http://feeds.feedburner.com/birddogsforever

Texrab · Post by **Texrab** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 7:46 am

Here is a link to litter last Oct. in KY.
http://www.versatiledogs.com/litters/cumberland.html
Looks pretty interesting

Helen · Post by **Helen** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:53 am

There are a few in the UK but not many. I saw them at a test a couple of years ago and was impressed with them. A breed for the future, I think.

Helen

Birdie · Post by **Birdie** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:29 pm

The Deutsch Langhaar - Been around a couple at tests. Contact Del Peterson - he's a great guy and a load of information. You can check out his website for info too.

http://www.germanlonghairpointerbreeders.com/

Beautiful dogs with mild temperaments.

Here's another link for the German Longhair Group North America:

http://www.geocities.com/glhuntingdog/

Cora's Shadow · Post by **Cora's Shadow** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 10:41 pm

I know this is an old thread but I just found it and thought that if anyone was interested, I could pass on some information. There are half a dozen breeders of German Longhair Pointers in the United States right now. Four litters will be born in the spring of 2008 alone. And we have just started a new international breed club for the breed, the German Longhair Pointer Club of North America. I would like to invite anyone interested to check out our website: www.GermanLonghairs.org

German Longhairs are very talented gundogs with outstanding dispositions and it is exciting to see them gain the recognition that they deserve.

AT2 · Post by **AT2** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:21 pm

I am very interested in a calmer gundog. My Britt is still a puppy but she is way more active than I am. I looked through those breeders sites but they say testing is mandatory. I really don't want to HAVE to commit to something just to get a dog with a calm disposition. Anyone know a breeder that doesn't require testing?

Cora's Shadow · Post by **Cora's Shadow** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:35 pm

Technically, you only have to commit to running a GLP puppy through a NAVHDA natural ability or VJP puppy test. That is not really so hard, is it?

The important thing is that these dogs can only go to hunting homes. We do NOT want to see them end up like Irish Setters. Every GLP hunts and every longhair for the past several decades has proven that it can hunt by passing at least one (usually multiple) hunting tests.

AT2 · Post by **AT2** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:41 pm

Thats not so bad i guess, I just hate to commit to something just to purchase a puppy. What happens if a fella doesnt honor the commitment?

Oh and your link is broken, http://www.germanlonghairs.org

AT2 · Post by **AT2** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:42 pm

Or is that just to obtain breeding rights?

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:53 pm

AT2,

I think you will find any and all puppies are going to be a handfull till they mature.

Ezzy

AT2 · Post by **AT2** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:56 pm

I am aware of that.
But from what I read on this breed they are a good deal calmer than most bird hunting breeds. I am interested in getting another dog. I know with a 3rd dog I would want one that is a calmer dog. I also am looking for a breed that is not very common. Which for the club I am in is anything thats not a EP or Britt. LOL
But this breed is very intriguing to me and thats why I am asking all the questions. Also my cousin purchased a DD and was unable to meet his commitments due to being deployed to Iraq. Thats why I asked what happens if you dont meet them.
I would never be a breeder anyway so thats not really a concern.

Cora's Shadow · Post by **Cora's Shadow** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:59 am

AT2,

Thanks for the heads-up on the link. It is working now. It looks like the period at the end of my sentence was accidentally being included in the link.

For what its worth, I have ran my 2-year old longhair in 3 NAVHDA tests and 2 JGHV tests (with DDs), and we have attended too many NAVHDA training days to count with both my local chapter and another chapter in Wisconsin. To date, there has never been a dog calmer than mine. And you should see my 7-month old puppy. We have had a couple people come to visit that are interested in obtaining puppies. She'll wag and be excited for 5 minutes, and then its back to her pillow. It truly is amazing how they can go from that to running in the field like a shorthair.

As far as the testing requirement, I don't know of a single GLP breeder that uses a contract. If you look on the kennel websites, you will see that they say that we "ask" that you test the puppy, although there is nothing we can do about it if you don't. The only thing that will happen if you don't test your puppy is that you won't be able to register any puppies out of him/her with any organization. But with that being said, every breeder I know will give preference to and higher puppy pick order to individuals who promise to test the pups.

Where are you located? Maybe I could send you some contact information for individuals near you with longhairs. That way you could go see one for yourself. That is probably the best way to answer your questions.

RRuark86 · Post by **RRuark86** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:02 pm

Cora, Lona is a beautiful dog and I hope you can find a good home for her. They seem like a great breed to follow in the field.

Cora's Shadow · Post by **Cora's Shadow** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:46 pm

Thanks RRuark86. She is very pretty and I do wish we could keep her just to look at, if for nothing else

But if we sell her, we can import a new breeding male and that is more important for the breed right now.

They are really fun to follow in the field. We test with a lot of drahthaars and shorthairs and both are really talented in the field, but there is something about a graceful, long-tailed dog

AT2 · Post by **AT2** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 4:11 pm

I am in Little Rock, Arkansas. I am glad you understand what I am talking about and not getting upset with me. I really like the dog you have for sale but i cant afford that right now. Wife and I are trying to get some nicer shotguns for each other for Xmas. She shot for the first time this Saturday and I think she is hooked. But what we are shooting are pretty junky and I think we would have a much better time with nicer weapons.

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:13 pm

I don't see how doing only a VJP or NA will benifit the breed or the breeder in making future breeding choices.This is an inadequate requirement for the betterment a breed.
Having an entire litter pass a natural ability type test does not indicate that those same pups will go on to have the mental stability or temperment or ability to prove the parents breeding worth.
IMO.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:17 pm

Having an entire litter pass a natural ability type test does not indicate that those same pups will go on to have the mental stability or temperment or ability to prove the parents breeding worth.

I have to disagree with this premis. A litter passing a NA test when not trained for is exactly what I want to see. NA is what is passed on from the parents. From there the rest is pretty much training.

Ezzy

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:46 am

Natural ability tests do not prove a dog's ability to handle stress and it does not show a dog's future worth.
And it does not prove the parent's breeding worth, which is what, I believe, the GLP breeders want to do.

Cora's Shadow · Post by **Cora's Shadow** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:48 pm

adogslife,

I agree with you in that running the entire litter through both a puppy test and an advanced test would provide a lot more information as to whether or not a breeding should be repeated or not. The advanced testing gives a much better idea of trainability and cooperation. But unfortunately, it is just impossible to force every puppy buyer to run their dog through both tests.

But if every puppy in the litter is natural ability tested and half of the litter goes on to complete an advanced test, I would be pretty happy. That would give me a lot of information on the breeding...more than what most people in any breed get. Even in Germany, only about 75% of the puppies run in a VJP and less than 50% of the puppies born actually run in a HZP.

If I was ruler of the universe, I would like to see really strict requirements that say that no dog can be bred unless they have pass at least 2 hunting tests (VJP and HZP or NAVHDA NA and NAVHDA UT) and had a thorough physical examination where their type, conformation, and coat is certified. It would also be great to require all puppy buyers to sign an iron-clad contract saying that they will do the same with the puppies. But that is simply not possible and all I can really do is select responsible puppy buyers and ask them to test their puppies and collect what information I can.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:05 pm

Natural ability tests do not prove a dog's ability to handle stress and it does not show a dog's future worth.
And it does not prove the parent's breeding worth, which is what, I believe, the GLP breeders want to do.

There are no test that tells you all about a dog. They just happen to be living things that can not be programmed to function in a certain way. As far as future worth that depends on how much money you have and how bad you want a dog.

I agree with you in that running the entire litter through both a puppy test and an advanced test would provide a lot more information as to whether or not a breeding should be repeated or not. The advanced testing gives a much better idea of trainability and cooperation.

What is the breeds position? If a breeding produces the NFC but the rest of the pups are neither as good or given the chance does that tell you the breeding is good or bad. I think we need to be aware of what a breeding produces but we don't need to judge the merits of the breeding by how many tests were performed or strictly how the pups did on them. I can see the pysical qualities of the litter and can judge the other qualities by how they perform in the house and in the field for the people who purchase them.

When I breed a hunting dog I want to see pups that fit the standard and do well in the field with no preference as to what kind of field work that is. Its nice to see dogs that do well in the games we play but more importantly is dogs that fill their owners desires in the field, in the show ring, and in the home. If we can do that our breeds will continue to be sporting dogs that can do the work they were bred to perform.

Ezzy

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:41 pm

Cora's shadow,
I agree with.We can only hope for the best.

ezzy wrote:
There are no test that tells you all about a dog. They just happen to be living things that can not be programmed to function in a certain way. As far as future worth that depends on how much money you have and how bad you want a dog.

I am not sure we are speaking about the same thing.Are you referring to the puppy being tested or its parents?
Sounds like you are referring to the puppy.
A German test is not attempting, so much, to tell you about the dog be being tested as it is trying to tell you about the worth of the parents.In this regard, you can learn much about the parents.The German system is not so much about the dog being tested and its worth.We will not know the worth of this dog until this dog has been bred.But, thru the tested dogs we can learn whether or not to breed either parent again, regardless of their individual test scores.

The German system is about breeding the best to the best. You may have a great hunting dog but if that dog does not prove it on test day,2 tests the max,that dog is out of the breeding program.
A litter that produces only one champion is not a bad litter as long as the littermates have proven themselves in lesser tests.If they have not passed the minimum natural ability type tests I would look closely at the dam and sire.The German sysytem is not about making a 1 time wonder, it is about creating a breed of dog where the majority succeed.
The German system is not considered a game to be played.It is about the worth of an entire breed(s) of dog.
I emphasize the German system b/c this is the system the GLP desires to
use as a guide in their breeding.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:09 pm

I understand their system but you would be hard pressed to prove it works any better or even as good as our system. Our American bred dogs have made more progress it seems to me than any of the German breds. What I see with the European standards is trying to make evey dog almost robotic and not dogs that can go out and use their heads on how or where to find a bird. And our winners in the field and in the ring are almost 100% American bred in the German breeds.

Ezzy

Wa Chukar Hunter · Post by **Wa Chukar Hunter** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:13 pm

In the mid 90s - pretty nice dogs it seemed to me.

Now I have 3 small munsterlanders, probably very similiar from what I remember of the GLP's.

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:28 am

ezzy wrote:
What I see with the European standards is trying to make evey dog almost robotic and not dogs that can go out and use their heads on how or where to find a bird.

There is nothing robotic about breeds that test in the German system .The bold,independant,cooperative and intellegent nature of these breeds, for the most part, prevents robotic training.
The way the sysytem is set up a dog that does not have a good nose or the intellegence to use it would not be breedable.Therefore, taking out any inadequate genes from the gene pool.
Can you give some detail as to what you have seen that leads you to this conclusion?

NC Quailhunter · Post by **NC Quailhunter** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 1:17 pm

I started this to see if anyone has seen one of these dogs and I find out all kinds of great stuff. Thanks. I do have a question. The way the conversation has been going it seems that the GLP is being strictly monitored to not just go out randomly and to ensure that they maintain there hunting lineage. I think that is awesome. I was looking at another web site and came across a litter of GLP's and the pups are going for only $200. Is this what is intended by monitoring them so closely?
It would seem to me that these dogs could go to any home and not meet the test requirements that were mentioned previously.
I am not trying to open a can of worms but if they are so closely watched ow can a breeder be able to sell them so relatively cheap?

pups 6 weeks

male 2 years

TITLE: German long Hair Pointers puppy litter ready now
PRICE: $200.00
DESCRIPTION: 7 weeks old ready to go! They do it all well Quail, pheasants,ducks, geese,small game. and blood trial. Point, back ,retrieve and great in the water! Inside or out a great family dog Special requirements to a great hunting home. Call for details. you may never be able to experience this rare breed at this price again
WEBSITE:
CONTACT: David Holmes
EMAIL: courier_46@yahoo.com
PHONE: 9033833399
ADDRESS: 285 County Road 1886
Yantis, TX 75497
COUNTRY: United States

Any info would be appreciated.
Thanks
NCQ

Cora's Shadow · Post by **Cora's Shadow** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:22 am

Yes NCQ, you are correct in that we are trying to maintain the integrity of the breed by only selling to hunting homes. The breed club also really pushes that each owner test their new puppy. And definitely, dogs that have not been tested will not be able to have their offspring registered. I understand that there are great dogs out there that will never be bred because they were never tested. But the club would rather see that happen than see unproven dogs contributing to the gene pool.

I have never heard of the guy in the ad that you posted and I will be giving him a call as soon as I get off the internet to see where he got his dogs. This can't be a good thing. When you see GLP puppies listed for cheap prices, you should definitely be scared. First of all, how could he have possibly completed all of the necessary health clearances and proven the dogs as hunters and sell the puppies for that cheap? Unless he is independently wealthy, he should have to charge more than that to cover his costs. I am charging nearly $1,000 a pup for my first litter and with that, I am hoping to almost break even on all of the money that I have spent on just the bitch so far. I will be spending nearly $400 just to register the puppies with 3 different organizations. Those pups in Texas might be register-able with NAVHDA, but that is it.

Also, I can almost guarantee you that the puppies in that ad are from Dutch lines. And the Dutch are notorious for breeding show-quality longhairs without proven hunting ability. They will sell dogs to anyone too. If you contact any longhair breeder in the country and they tell you that their dogs are of Dutch origin, don't touch them.

I'm not saying that there are not any respectable Dutch breeders who are breeding hunting longhairs, but I am saying that those types of breeders will NOT sell longhairs to America if they suspect the dogs won't be hunted and tested. There are a couple of other GLP folks in North American with questionable intent. One woman's goal in life is to get the GLP recognized by the AKC. The GLPCNA does not see any benefit from that and we will always try to stave off AKC recognition.

Sorry for my long-winded post. I just really care about the breed and I hate to see people that are only ruining it (either intentionally or unintentionally). Hunting with a longhair is like hunting behind a dog with all of the talent and speed of a GSP, but the beauty and grace of a setter. I just can't see how anyone would want to relegate them to being "just pets". And I certainly don't want to see them thought of as mediocre or novelty gundogs like a lot of the other continental breeds.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:00 pm

And I certainly don't want to see them thought of as mediocre or novelty gundogs like a lot of the other continental breeds.

Not sure I understand what you mean with this. Can you expand it a little?

Ezzy

Cora's Shadow · Post by **Cora's Shadow** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:51 pm

I don't mean to start a big debate or anything, but I have just noticed that a lot of the versatile breeds are not nearly as respected as the GSP or the GWP. A lot of people think of Small Munsterlanders, Large Munsterlanders, Braque du Bourbonnais, Braque Francais, Weimeraners and a lot of the other rare continentals as mediocre hunting dogs. I hear people say all the time "those breeds are rare for a reason" implying that they can't hunt. If you show up to a NAVHDA test with anything other than a GSP or GWP, you get asked why you chose that breed. People are still friendly and all, but there is definitely a lot more pressure to put a high score on a rare breed.

To give one specific example, I had an adult Small Munsterlander for sale a couple years ago. One guy called who wanted to buy the dog. He said that he was a little hesitant though because he talked to the pro trainers in his area about munsters. The pro trainers he spoke with told him that munsterlanders were novelty breeds. They said they would train it, but not to expect much. I do not believe that to be true, but there are clearly others out there that do.

I would just much rather see the GLP gain the reputation of the Deutsch Drahthaar or Pudelpointer. These breeds are not seen as often as AKC breeds, but most people still really highly respect them as outstanding gundogs.

This is all a matter of perception.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:43 pm

I think the breeds you mentioned are thought of as lesser dogs then the GSP and The GWP and several others. And one of the main reasons for that statis is the fact theat they are not popular and the small numbers that are available has kept the breeding from advanceing very much. I think you will find the long haired pointer fits right into that catagory also.

It has happened with practically every breed where the breed club or who ever have tried to restrict the ownership of their dogs. If you want to see your breed improve actually as well as in the opinion of the public get them into as many homes as possible and if they have anything to offer they will be bred and used in the tests and trials that will makes them a viable breed in the eyes of the pros and the people wanting a good dog.

Ezzy

Cora's Shadow · Post by **Cora's Shadow** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:44 pm

It has happened with practically every breed where the breed club or who ever have tried to restrict the ownership of their dogs.

That is not true. The DD and the PP are growing in popularity in North America by leaps and bounds. Both require testing for breeding dogs. And the number of Large and Small Munsterlanders is climbing all the time. They require all breeding dogs to pass a natural ability test. If you look at NAVHDA registrations, there are now way more Small Munsterlanders than Viszlas (a much more well-known breed).

If you want to see your breed improve actually as well as in the opinion of the public get them into as many homes as possible and if they have anything to offer they will be bred and used in the tests and trials that will makes them a viable breed in the eyes of the pros and the people wanting a good dog.

I think that this is only one way to improve a breed. And it has worked to some extent for several breeds. But I think you have to consider the goal in mind. I think it makes more sense to restrict breeding and slowly increase the population of a breed while making sure that they are all hunters than to rapidly breeds lots of dogs with questionable talent. The result would be a lot of German Longhairs, but only a certain percentage would be good hunters. It sounds like you are suggesting that we should go this route and then once the gene pool is large enough, we can go back to selecting for hunting ability. Like I said, this has been done in most of the breeds in the U.S., and it is one way of improving breed. But it also creates a lot of non-hunting sporting dogs. Even in the GSP, there are several specimens that aren't worth anything in the field. I think it is cool that pretty much every DD, DK, PP or GLP puppy will be a fantastic gundog. I wish we could say that for more sporting breeds.

So although your method can work, I think restrictive breeding is more conducive to the GLPCNA's goal. If you read our mission statement, we state that we founded the organization to create a gundog most suitable to North American hunting conditions and to establish a breeding program based on hunting ability. We do not care if the German Longhair ever becomes popular or high in numbers. We only care about the quality of the dogs. I don't want to let quality suffer just to get more dogs in the eyes of the public. I've said it before and I'll say it again: I would much rather see the breed remain rare, but talented, than popular and mediocre.

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:54 pm

Cora's shadow said:

We do not care if the German Longhair ever becomes popular or high in numbers. We only care about the quality of the dogs. I don't want to let quality suffer just to get more dogs in the eyes of the public. I've said it before and I'll say it again: I would much rather see the breed remain rare, but talented, than popular and mediocre.

BRAVO!
Well said.

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:02 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
If you want to see your breed improve actually as well as in the opinion of the public get them into as many homes as possible and if they have anything to offer they will be bred and used in the tests and trials that will makes them a viable breed in the eyes of the pros and the people wanting a good dog.

This statement shows an extreme lack of knowledge of what it takes to improve a breed's genes,traits,characteristics,ability and type.

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:47 pm

adogslife wrote:ezzy333 wrote:
If you want to see your breed improve actually as well as in the opinion of the public get them into as many homes as possible and if they have anything to offer they will be bred and used in the tests and trials that will makes them a viable breed in the eyes of the pros and the people wanting a good dog.

This statement shows an extreme lack of knowledge of what it takes to improve a breed's genes,traits,characteristics,ability and type.

No, it shows a precise understanding of the history of the various continental dog breeds here in North America. The roadmap that Ezzy laid out isn't "one of many ways", it's the only way that breeds have grown to relevancy here.

adogslife wrote:Cora's shadow said:

We do not care if the German Longhair ever becomes popular or high in numbers. We only care about the quality of the dogs. I don't want to let quality suffer just to get more dogs in the eyes of the public. I've said it before and I'll say it again: I would much rather see the breed remain rare, but talented, than popular and mediocre.

BRAVO!
Well said.

All the quality in the world isn't worth much if the breed isn't relevant. There have been a number of supposedly quality breeds that have faded into obscurity or worse, extinction, because of their inability or unwillingness to expand.

As to some other comments made in this thread....

Cora's Shadow wrote:

That is not true. The DD and the PP are growing in popularity in North America by leaps and bounds. Both require testing for breeding dogs.

How are you defining "leaps and bounds"? Also, the PP doesn't require testing for breeding dogs. The PPCA might require that for their registry, but theirs isn't the major registry for PPs in the US; NAVHDA is.

If you look at NAVHDA registrations, there are now way more Small Munsterlanders than Viszlas (a much more well-known breed).

The Vizsla has never had much participation in NAVHDA, same as the Brittany. Their level of participation in relation to their overall population is extremely low as compared to their other venues. Heck, by NAVHDA's own data many years the English Pointer has the greatest average Utility test score of any breed. But no one is going to promote that when you are averaging the test scores of less than 10 dogs.

I don't mean to start a big debate or anything, but I have just noticed that a lot of the versatile breeds are not nearly as respected as the GSP or the GWP. A lot of people think of Small Munsterlanders, Large Munsterlanders, Braque du Bourbonnais, Braque Francais, Weimeraners and a lot of the other rare continentals as mediocre hunting dogs. I hear people say all the time "those breeds are rare for a reason" implying that they can't hunt. If you show up to a NAVHDA test with anything other than a GSP or GWP, you get asked why you chose that breed. People are still friendly and all, but there is definitely a lot more pressure to put a high score on a rare breed.

Once again, respect comes from both quality and relevancy. The restaurant on the corner may serve 5 star food, but if they only have 4 tables they won't make much of an impact. The restaurant across the street might be able to serve excellent dishes but not consistently, night after night, they won't have much of an impact either.

A number of the breeds you mention might have excellent individual dogs, but have not been developed far enough to "work out the kinks" to provide any sort of consistency. There are hundreds of GSP and GWP litters every year where EVERY PUP in the litter has the genetics to become a NAVHDA UTI or AKC MH with a REASONABLE amount of training. That's a level of consistency that most of those breeds you mentioned above are sorely lacking, and many honest breeders in those breeds willingly admit this. They understand the only way to solve some of the "quirks" in these breeds is to try lots of different breeding combinations until they work things through. That requires volume; no other way around it.

I understand the theories you folks want to believe in; I subscribed to many of them at one point as well. The problem is there isn't a ton of real life history to support those theories; there haven’t been any breeds that have grown from obscurity to prominence by taking that route.

The goal behind performance breeding/testing isn’t to “separate the wheat from the chaff”; the goal is to end up with a meaningful amount of wheat in the end.

JMO,
Dave

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:44 pm

Dave,

People need to think in terms of "Economy of Scale". Your science project has to be big enough to ever get anywhere. Criminy, look at Gordons for crying loud. Our field segment is pretty small, therefore we have few quality field dogs and there isn't much uniformity of talent.

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:21 pm

Dave wrote:
All the quality in the world isn't worth much if the breed isn't relevant.

Relevant to whose standards. Cora's Shadow has already stated her standards.

Cora's shadow said:

We do not care if the German Longhair ever becomes popular or high in numbers. We only care about the quality of the dogs. I don't want to let quality suffer just to get more dogs in the eyes of the public. I've said it before and I'll say it again: I would much rather see the breed remain rare, but talented, than popular and mediocre.

The German system and those interested in using it as a guide,is not about popularity. It is about the continuation and the betterment of what breeders had invisioned over 100 years ago.If a handful of breeders breed with the intent to coninue these efforts the breed will continue to grow but in the hands of dedicated like minded breeders.
Does a breed really need to be in the most homes possible for it to be all it can be?If every owner tests in a different system,I know there aren't that many systems but each system has a different purpose, how can the breeder use the results to better his kennel in the goal of versatile German style and all that it demands.Or should the desire to breed toward the German sysytem just be thrown out the window?

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:29 pm

Wyndancer wrote:Dave,

People need to think in terms of "Economy of Scale". Your science project has to be big enough to ever get anywhere. Criminy, look at Gordons for crying loud. Our field segment is pretty small, therefore we have few quality field dogs and there isn't much uniformity of talent.

Dan, you are absolutely correct.

I like to think of it as needing to get past the "proof of concept" phase, followed by "pre-production".

Breeds like the Gordon are in the later; you folks just need more homes for pups to afford you the opportunity to refine the breed. It's hard to determine whether a stud is prepotent or not when there are only roughly 100 litters whelped every year; and probably only 25% (?) of those are performance-based litters. Gone are the days of breeders willing to cull 95 out of 100; if that even worked at all (which I doubt). The Irish/Red setter folks are probably closer to true "production mode"; if they could ever get past the ISCA/FDSB split they might have a chance.

But what we're talking about here with the SM, LM, various Braques, GLPs etc is still "proof of concept". These are breeds that may not have an active breeder of ANY kind in all 50 states; heck, they may not have a single dog in all 50 states. I've had the luxury of handling and training with dozens and dozens of these dogs; many of my peers (both hunting and trialing) have never SEEN one of these dogs in person. Theory is one thing; practice is another.

FWIW,
Dave

petrey10 · Post by **petrey10** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:48 pm

how bad does the GLP shed? If I understand correctly they are pretty easy to train?

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:16 pm

To improve any breed you need a gene pool large enough to combine the traits you are looking for. When there are only a handful of dogs in the country and if we assume that only half of them are dogs that might improve the breed crossed with the right female you are limited to impossible odds of eve being able to find a dog unrelated to yours to even breed to. Thats a concern in even some of the popular breeds. A dominant male maybe in half of the pedigrees in the country and it limits severely where you can find a different line that has a chance of improving your line.

Cory Shadow has a nice dog it appears but the chances of it producing a pup better than itself is pretty slim I would think under the rules they are trying to live with.

Ezzy

Cora's Shadow · Post by **Cora's Shadow** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:32 am

To improve any breed you need a gene pool large enough to combine the traits you are looking for. When there are only a handful of dogs in the country and if we assume that only half of them are dogs that might improve the breed crossed with the right female you are limited to impossible odds of eve being able to find a dog unrelated to yours to even breed to.

First of all, let me just say that the GLP may have limited numbers here in the U.S., but in Germany, it is the 4th most popular pointing dog (behind DDs, DKs, and Small Munsterlanders). So please try to think bigger picture. To find a stud for my dog, I didn't just look at the handful of other dogs in America, I searched throughout all of Germany. You may be correct that the gene pool is small here, but we are not limiting ourselves by only looking here. The world is full of GLPs, especially northern Europe. Next year, I am thinking of bringing over a fantastic Norwegian dog to breed to one of my dogs. It is not like we are dealing with a breed that is rare everywhere and has a small genepool world-wide.

I don't think a lot of people on this forum understand the purpose of the German testing system. EVERY single dog in my dogs' pedigrees has passed at least two hunting tests, and had their type, confirmation, coat, and temperament evaluated for the past 100+ years. Don't you see how that creates consistency in the breed? Anyone that owns/tests/breeds German dogs is not trying to reinvent the wheel (i.e. redevelop the breed). 100+ years of testing has created the type of gundog that we want and will continue to maintain. When that many dogs have proven themselves on the exact same hunting requirements for that long, there are bound to be very few pups born each year without the desired traits.

I don't really appreciate how a few posters keep making it sound like purchasing a GLP, or a PP, or even a Small Munsterlander (only a natural ability test is required) is a risky decision if you are looking for a good gundog. That is just ridiculous. The fact is that a puppy buyer should feel more confident getting a pup from lines that have been proven hunters for decades, than to purchase a puppy where only a partial number of the stock in the pedigree have titles or have been hunt tested (of any breed). Isn't it intuitive that the more tests/titles in a pedigree, the more certain you can be of the puppy's potential ability?

Petrey,
GLPs have very different summer and winter coats. If you look at my website, every photo of a brown dog is the same dog and yet you can see how she goes from having a very slick summer coat to a fluffier winter coat with more feathering. Because of this change, GLPs really blow their coats in the spring. The shedding at that time of year is pretty bad. I finally spent $40 on a Mars Coat King and that has helped tremendously. In the fall, they shed quite a bit as well, but not nearly as bad as in the spring. The rest of the year, I don't really notice it and I have 3 dogs in the house. I sweep/vacuum every 3-4 weeks if that give you any indication.

And yes, GLPs should be very easy to train. Their cooperative nature makes them very willing to please and eager to learn. They are definitely dogs that hunt for you. When we are hunting with our dogs, I never say a word to them and they just naturally check back and swing around if we change direction. Judges have commented on that during our tests--about how responsive they are to handlers.

Cora's Shadow · Post by **Cora's Shadow** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:48 am

For what's it worth, I did obtain more information about that litter of $200 GLPs in Texas. They were not Dutch dogs as I originally assumed. They are German-bred. The "breeder" purchased both his male and female from another GLP breeder in the U.S. He was not able to test either dog and they were accidentally bred one day. The pups were sold for so cheap because they were not registered with any organization and their parents had passed not required tests or even had any health clearances (hips, etc.).

The new owners of those puppies will probably find that their pups are pretty good hunters, but definitely not the best the breed has to offer. The sire is a full littermate to one of my females and sounds like he has a similar temperament. However 2 other littermates of their's did not have as much drive as I would like to see. They both passed the HZP, but it wasn't anything fancy. Also, I watched 5 littermates of the dam at an HZP this fall. Four out of the five littermates failed the HZP. The biggest reason for all 4 dogs failing was that they were self-hunters and pretty much "flipped off" their owners during the test.

So could this unproven breeding result in good gundogs that should be bred? Perhaps. But from what I saw at the HZP, I would not have bred to any of the dogs from that dam's litter. But maybe this guy lucked out and his female from that litter is much more biddable than the rest. It is hard to know for sure since he never tested her.

I guess what I'm saying is that when you don't test dogs, it leads to uncertainty. I don't know if those pups will be good hunting dogs and that is why the parents should not have been bred. If you don't know if a breeding is going to produce good gundogs, why allow the dogs to be bred? The whole idea behind German testing is consistency and knowing what you are going to get.

AT2 · Post by **AT2** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:53 am

I hate to say this but devils advocate. If your testing to breed is really that successful then after all this time(100+ years) shouldn't all GLP breedings throw good pups? Because those mated dogs parents were tested. And theirs and theirs etc... See what I am driving at.

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:18 am

AT2 wrote:I hate to say this but devils advocate. If your testing to breed is really that successful then after all this time(100+ years) shouldn't all GLP breedings throw good pups? Because those mated dogs parents were tested. And theirs and theirs etc... See what I am driving at.

One would think so.

Cora's Shadow · Post by **Cora's Shadow** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:33 am

AT2, you bring up an interesting point. In a perfect world, yes, every dog from every litter should be great. But since no dog is perfect, there is always something "negative" that can be passed down to the puppies. And dogs are different enough that even with years of testing, you cannot be exactly sure of everything that will be in the litter unless you are linebreeding or very familiar with the lines.

This particular litter that I am referring to was an outcross between two totally unrelated dogs. The male is one of the only dogs in German history to be used more than the allowed 12 times for breeding because he is so great. When he was bred to other females, the puppies were great. The dam of this particular litter has been bred one other time and the pups from that litter were very biddable and talented. But for whatever reason, when that male and that female were bred together, the results were less than stellar (in regards to disposition, not talent).

It just goes to show that testing every dog does not guarantee that every breeding combination will produce 8 more breeding dogs. I do not think that any breeder expects every puppy in their litter to be breeding quality. Although I would not want to breed to any pups from that particular litter, I would still have to admit that they are fantastic bird dogs. But in our breed, we are looking for the total package: hunting ability, looks, and disposition. We cannot promise that every puppy in every litter will have all of the desired traits, but I do not think that any other testing system can come closer to that than the JGHV.

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German Longhaired pointer

German Longhaired pointer

I hunted with Del and a couple GLP's