Best Training Material

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Ironhorse77

Best Training Material

Post by Ironhorse77 » Thu Apr 05, 2007 10:05 pm

In preparation for my new GSP pup that I will be bringing home next week, I would like to read or watch some good training material for the average amateur upland hunter. I've read Wolters' "Gun Dog" and "Water Dog" ( I have a lab) but would like to read some more UP-TO-DATE stuff and maybe get a DVD or video instead of a book since I'm more of a visual learner.

Can any of you point me in the right direction as to which books/dvds are the best to use in training a pointer?

hubweims

Post by hubweims » Thu Apr 05, 2007 10:30 pm

there are several great videos/books talked about on here. i would just do a topic search and see what everyone has recommended before. "the perfect start" is a great one to invest in though.

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Windyhills
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Post by Windyhills » Thu Apr 05, 2007 10:58 pm

For videos, I can now say I have a copy of the video that I have seen many recommend, Janet Nahorn's (think she may be a member here?) video "Training for Silent Hunting: No whistles, no whoa's". For books, Joan Bailey's "How to help gundogs train themselves" is very good. Both work well for the first year or so of training of a new pups life. Don't go into much detail about later polishing, but do a nice job of helping set the ground work and getting a dog to do some productive hunting by the end of the first year.

Next on my wish list is Dave Walker's "The Bird Dog Training Manual". Seeing a lot of good reviews on that one.

Wolters Gun Dog (the pointing dog book, not the retriever book) is the one book I would recommend against.

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Casper
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Post by Casper » Thu Apr 05, 2007 10:59 pm

Better than any book or any video is a "Mentor".

What part of Colorado? Me or someone else may be able ot recomend someone to you that lives in or around your area

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Post by Ruffshooter » Fri Apr 06, 2007 4:00 am

I personally watched any of the retriever videos but did come across what I thought was a good training book for retrievers and any duck dog.

Robert Milsners Back to Basics Retriever Training. It was not for field trial dogs but just hunting. I used it to help me to get my GSP to take a line for a blind and for some drills for hand signals.

Have fun.
The best part of training is seeing the light come on in your little prot'eg'e.

Rick

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Greg Jennings
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Post by Greg Jennings » Fri Apr 06, 2007 5:53 am

The very best thing that you can do is find a mentor. Because, along with teaching you how to train, they help you with resources: land, birds, contacts, etc.

Look for a NAVHDA chapter and/or a bird dog training club.

Videos: Perfect Start, Janet Nahorns, Sherry Ray Ebert's video, the Bill West seminar videos.

Books: "The Best Way To Train Your Bird Dog: The Delmar Smith Method" by Bill Tarrant and Dave Walker's book.

You might also search the archives for posts on developing young dogs by "Wagonmaster". I think that they are the most succinct that I've read.

Best regards, Greg J.

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Post by Wagonmaster » Fri Apr 06, 2007 6:39 am

Ignore most of what you read in Gun Dog. It is just not very good, particularly the concept of scaring a young dog into whoaing by jumping at it. There are better ways. Go find Delmar Smith's book that Greg suggests. Techniques have improved even since then, but Smith's is a very good, sequential method.

I appreciate Greg's endorsement, but there are now several people here who can tell you how a bird dog should be developed, including Greg and quite a few others. The ideas I voice are not mine, but those of some very good trainers of past years I have learned from.

The absolute critical piece to training a young bird dog is to put it on birds. There is nothing at all wrong with obedience and other types of work with a young bird dog if it suits your fancy and if it is done at the right time. But what happens, is that those things are easier to do than to go find the resources, land, johnny house, quail or chukar, etc., that it takes to do the work on birds. So you feel like you are accomplishing something with the pup by going through obedience class, when all you are in fact doing is letting valuable time pass. Then the pup is a year, year and a half old, you take it out and hunt it, and wonder why it does not find birds for you or know what to do with any it does stumble across.

That first year, year and a half, is like the "Golden Hour" in lifesaving. If you do not get the dog on birds then, and lots of them, it may be too late. Wild birds are best, not everyone can find access to wild birds and you cannot train on them in most states until mid-July (and if you are in the south or west watch those dang snakes), but find johnny house or callback pen instructions, find a local game preserve, do whatever it takes to get that pup on birds. If you do, many dogs will just make themselves, despite your mistakes. And you will have a true champion in a couple of years, whether that is measured by field trials, hunt tests, or in your own heart, in the hunting field with you. If you don't you could be the best trainer in the world and you will not make a dog out of it.

Ironhorse77

Post by Ironhorse77 » Fri Apr 06, 2007 7:26 am

Thanks for all the feedback. This forum really is very helpful. I trained my own lab my own way (incorporating some of Wolters stuff) and he is perfect for my needs. I've always owned retrievers and feel pretty comfortable with training them. However, I guess I like getting out of my comfort zone and learning new things. I've been wanting a GSP for a few years now, but I realize my training style needs to adapt. I like to pick and pull the good stuff from various styles. I want my pup to learn to be steady on point and retrieve the bird when released. Does anybody on here allow their pointer to flush the bird after being released from point?

I was reading through the Pointing Dog Journal and I noticed George Hickox's videos.

Are they worth the money to buy or would I be better off with Delmar Smith or Perfect Start?

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Post by Greg Jennings » Fri Apr 06, 2007 7:30 am

Potential Contacts:

GSP Club of Colorado: http://www.cgspc.org/

Rocky Mountain NAVHDA Chapter: www.rmc-navhda.com

Colorado Hunting Preserves: http://www.gamebirdhunts.com/us-hunting/Colorado.asp

Pointers to sources of birds: http://gamebirdcentral.com/ .

The American Field...you should subscribe or at least get a copy or five. It has sources of birds, names of trainers, and a wealth of other information: http://www.americanfield.com/ .

The GSP Club of America: http://www.gspca.org/ .

The GSP Chronicle...you should subscribe: http://www.gspchronicle.com/ .

More as I have time, Greg J.

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Post by bobman » Fri Apr 06, 2007 7:40 am

Hickox videoes are pretty good all the big name trainers have good programs you just have to follow them and not mix and match, they have reasons why they do the stuff they do, and the sequence they do it in.


Don't let your pointer flush birds on command especially when its young it will start doing it without your command and lead to a problem.

For at least the first couple years you want to release it with both a touch on the head and the command "OK" if you want it to relocate if no bird can be flushed by you.

If you use both commands consistantly as the dog ages you can go to the verbal release if you want and it will stay reliably staunch.

Its useful to be able to release them verbally if for instance they are locked up on the other side of a stream you don't want to wade.

Thats how I do it anyway
currently two shorthairs, four english pointers, one Brittany, one SPRINGER a chihuahua and a min pin lol

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Post by Greg Jennings » Fri Apr 06, 2007 7:47 am

Ironhorse77 wrote:Thanks for all the feedback. This forum really is very helpful. I trained my own lab my own way (incorporating some of Wolters stuff) and he is perfect for my needs. I've always owned retrievers and feel pretty comfortable with training them. However, I guess I like getting out of my comfort zone and learning new things. I've been wanting a GSP for a few years now, but I realize my training style needs to adapt. I like to pick and pull the good stuff from various styles. I want my pup to learn to be steady on point and retrieve the bird when released. Does anybody on here allow their pointer to flush the bird after being released from point?

I was reading through the Pointing Dog Journal and I noticed George Hickox's videos.

Are they worth the money to buy or would I be better off with Delmar Smith or Perfect Start?
IMHO, Wolter's "Water Dog" isn't as bad as his pointing dog book. There are some really heinous mistakes in Gun Dog.

Again, just my opinion, but here is what I would do...get the Bill Tarrant/Delmar Smith book, read the section on developing a young dog and then put it away and dedicate yourself to that task for *over* a year.

I really don't like the strong obedience flavor of Hickox's material.

That first year or so is the investment that will pay you rich dividends for the rest of your dog's active life. Don't mash your pup down with early obedience, build him up with desire for birds.

Birds, my man, it's birds that make a bird dog. Early and frequent contact with good-flying birds, preferably wild birds, builds the desire and drive that will make your dog.

One last word: Do not be tempted by "earliest this", "first that", "speed this", "quick that". That way lies flagging, blinking, retrieving issues and a host of other problems.

Best regards, Greg J.

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Post by bobman » Fri Apr 06, 2007 7:57 am

Again, just my opinion, but here is what I would do...get the Bill Tarrant/Delmar Smith book, read the section on developing a young dog and then put it away and dedicate yourself to that task for *over* a year.

I really don't like the strong obedience flavor of Hickox's material.

That first year or so is the investment that will pay you rich dividends for the rest of your dog's active life. Don't mash your pup down with early obedience, build him up with desire for birds.
I thinks thats excellent advice.

I personnally teach my pups to come when called and sit so I can put up with them in the house, and thats it until after thier first season of hunting.

I try to let them really get bird crazy before doing much else and don't do any retrieving or whoa training until they have hunted a good season.

You can always reel them in but its very hard to make them bolder
currently two shorthairs, four english pointers, one Brittany, one SPRINGER a chihuahua and a min pin lol

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Post by Don » Fri Apr 06, 2007 8:49 am

Bill Tarrent's book on Delmar Smith. It is not up to date, it's timeless. All the mystries and catch 22's reduced to simplicity and reason. Train dumb naturally!
Never set your dog up to fail - Delmar smith

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Some people think to much like people and not enough like dogs!

Ironhorse77

Post by Ironhorse77 » Sat Apr 07, 2007 1:10 pm

What a load of crap!! I went to Sportman's Warehouse on the slim chance that they might have some of the books or videos that you all have mentioned and all they had were a handful of books for retriever training and nothing for pointers.

Sounds biased to me. But it was still fun to go in there and get lost for a few hours. Its like a kid in a candy shop for me. I love that place.

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Post by DoubleB20 » Sat Apr 07, 2007 3:52 pm

Amazon.com has all these books used at a much reduced price. I've not had any problem with them.

Stump

Post by Stump » Sat Apr 07, 2007 8:46 pm

For books, Joan Bailey's "How to help gundogs train themselves" I bought this book and I think its pretty good. you can get it at amazon .com I don't know if it works but it seams to :lol:

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Post by Chaingang » Sat Apr 07, 2007 9:47 pm

Ironhorse77 wrote:What a load of crap!! I went to Sportman's Warehouse on the slim chance that they might have some of the books or videos that you all have mentioned and all they had were a handful of books for retriever training and nothing for pointers.

Sounds biased to me. But it was still fun to go in there and get lost for a few hours. Its like a kid in a candy shop for me. I love that place.
Ironhorse,

check out Coon River Kennels who is a sponsor on this board for the Delmar Smith book (Best way to train your bird dog) or the Perfect Start/Perfect Finish DVD's. They have both of these, and as was mentioned in the previous posts are probably your best bet for reading or video.
http://www.coonriverkennels.com/

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Post by Windyhills » Sun Apr 08, 2007 10:34 am

Janet Nahorn is also a sponsor, can get her video or DVD from her...

http://www.masoncreek.com/Videos.html

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