Anyone with free

3forme · Post by **3forme** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 2:44 pm

English Pointer pup that is looking for someone that will hunt/test/trial and above all give the best "bleep" advertisement and household you can get pm me. I am in the wrong line of business I went and looked at some EP's today and the price tag on a pup was 2k

It's a shame because I really wanted it to work out as he was close and I thought what better way to promote your dogs than with someone who is going to campaign them for you, but I wasn't willing to spend 2k, for that price they should come with all the training birds needed.

big steve46 · Post by **big steve46** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 3:16 pm

Can I assume that EP pup was a started dog that would point, back, and possibly retrieve? It should for 2K, whatever part of the country you are from. :roll:

3forme · Post by **3forme** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 3:21 pm

big steve46 wrote:Can I assume that EP pup was a started dog that would point, back, and possibly retrieve? It should for 2K, whatever part of the country you are from. :roll:

No this was 8 weeks from birth as in PUPPY for 2k

I am in Massachusetts

Brittguy · Post by **Brittguy** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 5:06 pm

would you say they are pricing because of the Elhew line?

3forme · Post by **3forme** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 5:10 pm

Brittguy wrote:would you say they are pricing because of the Elhew line?

Yep you could say that. Frozen semen breeding too, which I don't quite understand as he has a grouse champion dog in his kennel that looks great!

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 7:30 pm

He can charge whatever he wants and you can pay whatever you want. That is called a free market. I would guess he will have the pups for a while.

Ezzy

3forme · Post by **3forme** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 7:46 pm

ezzy333 wrote:He can charge whatever he wants and you can pay whatever you want. That is called a free market. I would guess he will have the pups for a while.

Ezzy

I would think he'll have them a while, who in there right mind would spend 2k on a Pointer pup no matter what the breeding, it is still a crap shoot. Somebody must have a line of Pointers or a kennel that is starting up that needs there dogs campaigned, anyone?

Razor · Post by **Razor** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 8:07 pm

Elhew prices are a joke. You can find much better dogs for much less. If you compare say the Miller line to the Elhew line, the Miller line has atleast 10x the Championships. What have you seen an Elhew dog win, besides Swami, Sunflower, and a couple others.

Razor · Post by **Razor** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 8:10 pm

By the way if you are worried about the price of a pup, do you have any idea how much campaigning a dog costs?

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 8:59 pm

You would pay alot more for a shar pei or shitzu.

Post by **topher40** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 9:32 pm

Razor wrote:By the way if you are worried about the price of a pup, do you have any idea how much campaigning a dog costs?

Thats the question that needed to be asked. Unless you are a pro, or willing to place your dog with a pro then a weekend trialer isnt "campaiging". You can blow through 2k a month truly campaigning a dog.
3forme, there are alot of nice dogs our there for 3-8 hundred that would do everything you are wanting from a dog. I have looked at a few of your past posts inquiring about pointers and 3-8 hundred should buy you all the dog you want, even in Mass. I think you have to be realistic in your expectations and you wont get to many garauntees from any breeders that arent into AKC trials atleast as far as pointers are concerned.

Razor · Post by **Razor** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 9:44 pm

There are many amatures that run hand in hand with the pros. My friend even won a National Championship in 99. I think it is cheaper to put your dog with a pro. If you count lost work, travel, entry fees, training expenses, it adds up very quickly. Who has the time to go to a National, Regional, or Species Championship that may last more than a week to run one or two dogs?

Post by **topher40** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 9:48 pm

True Razor amatuers run hand in hand, but those are far and few between. Most people dont have time or money to run with the big dogs like you outlined in your last post. Usually a truely "campaigned" dog in not in the hands of the amatuer. Look back at some of the posts 3forme has made and I think you may get a better idea of what was meant from my last post/

cgbirddogs · Post by **cgbirddogs** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 10:17 pm

So far as shooting dogs go, for the last 6 years Elhew bred dogs have dominated. Elhew Sunflower, Elhew Swami, Elhew Hannabell, Spirit's Blaze (by Elhew Phantom), Elhew Basil Hayden, just to name a few. People will criticize the prices Elhew dogs bring, but the fact remains there is a market for them and people are willing to pay the price to own one. I'm not knocking the Miller line, having owned a daughter of Miller's Silver Ending myself. However, for whatever reason, the average gun dog owner is willing to pay more for an Elhew bred pup.

3forme · Post by **3forme** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:10 am

Thats the question that needed to be asked. Unless you are a pro, or willing to place your dog with a pro then a weekend trialer isnt "campaiging". You can blow through 2k a month truly campaigning a dog.
3forme, there are alot of nice dogs our there for 3-8 hundred that would do everything you are wanting from a dog. I have looked at a few of your past posts inquiring about pointers and 3-8 hundred should buy you all the dog you want, even in Mass. I think you have to be realistic in your expectations and you wont get to many garauntees from any breeders that arent into AKC trials atleast as far as pointers are concerned.

Well I guess campaigning wasn't the best choice of words, I would be running in several different venues from Navhda to walking foot trials so this dog would get exposure for sure, my DD breeder has already received a dozen interested clients after seeing the dog I got from him will they buy, who knows? But what I am doing is working for him! I don't mind paying for a dog I am just concerned about what I am going to get from a breeder, that is my concern. I am not looking for the dog that everyone can handle I am looking for something special, I train/hunt hard and will stand toe to toe with any pro, I am far more thorough than most I have seen, I may not have the field trial wins but I know how to train/handle a dog. Somebody looking to get a pup in a great home where it will get exposure will do right by me

[/quote]

bobman · Post by **bobman** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 8:58 am

I got one for free( with some protraining) because the field trialer that owned him didn't think he would win trials, hes a great dog and real biddable never barks ect. Elhew dogs are real nice.

You might want to try to contact abunch of the grouse circuit guys running pointers and see if you can pick up a dog they cull out of their string for cheap.

Lot of people just want them to go to a good hunting home.

And go look at the "would you breed to this dog" thread on this page

http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7159

FTbritts · Post by **FTbritts** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:17 am

There are lots of good litters out there. It seems to me lately that the prices of pups and stud fees are getting higher and higher. When I do have a litter on the ground I get calls with people telling me they are trialers all the time. They act like this will insure them a better pup. This is the way I figure it, Me (the breeder) and you the buyer all have the exact same chance at 8 weeks old of getting a great dog, posibly even a champion. It's when breeders keep the whole litter and evaluate and sell one by one that sometimes you may get the short end of the stick. I did say sometimes because there have been many dogs that didn't turn on, tails that didn't straighten out etc... till they were older. Yes there are a few that have slipped throiugh my fingers that I wish I had back.

Yet at the same time I enjoy the e mails and pictures of pups from clients that are really turning on, pointing and naturallly backing and retrieveing at 4-5 mo old. It puts a smile on my face that they are very happy with their purchase and I may just be doing something right with my breeding program.

I hope you find what you are looking for.

3forme · Post by **3forme** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 11:36 am

bobman wrote:I got one for free( with some protraining) because the field trialer that owned him didn't think he would win trials, hes a great dog and real biddable never barks ect. Elhew dogs are real nice.

You might want to try to contact abunch of the grouse circuit guys running pointers and see if you can pick up a dog they cull out of their string for cheap.

Lot of people just want them to go to a good hunting home.

And go look at the "would you breed to this dog" thread on this page

http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7159

I saw that and was going to reply stating that I would gladly take one if his dog is all he says it is and breeds to a nice female. How do you find grouse circuit people I have no idea, not even sure they run them here?? I guess not everyone is like me in my A litter of DD's I gave 1 pup away to a hunting testing home, 3 I let go for next to nothing, I was not in it for the money and wanted to see the pups go to homes that would hunt/test them, even if I charged 1k a piece it would have never made up for the costs associated with getting a bitch approved for breeding let alone stud fee's and vet bills.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:56 pm

3forme,

I was wondering what they were going to ask for those pups. Just the market up north I guess. That seems really high to me. Like others have stated, there are really fine breeders out there for much less with just as high a quality of breeding.

The thing that concerns me is that you want to run the Pointer in NAVHDA. They are not the same as DDs and I am concerned that you might be getting over your head attempting that training with a Pointer.

First, you will not find any Pointer breeders willing to commit to a pup that will be able to perform in NAVHDA. In fact, good luck finding a Pointer breeder that has ever even heard of NAVHDA!

A GSP would be much, much easier and would give you experience working with a breed other than a DD. A Pointer is a lot to handle and would not be a great choice for NAVHDA. I know!

bobman · Post by **bobman** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:07 pm

But if you want a bird dog just to hunt, pointers rock!!

People that never hunted over them, me included for many years, just dont know that they are missing.

I am a big time shorthair fancier, and I'vve had some real good shorthairs but pointers are bird finding machines.

Everybody should have atleast one

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:10 pm

bobman,

DITTO!!

(except for the "one" part because everyone should own at least "FOUR"!!!)

3forme · Post by **3forme** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:21 pm

[quote="Yawallac"]3forme,

The thing that concerns me is that you want to run the Pointer in NAVHDA. They are not the same as DDs and I am concerned that you might be getting over your head attempting that training with a Pointer.

First, you will not find any Pointer breeders willing to commit to a pup that will be able to perform in NAVHDA. In fact, good luck finding a Pointer breeder that has ever even heard of NAVHDA!

Now first off why would you make that statement without knowing someone? Because I don't brag up my dogs on here, or have field trial wins? I know several field trial trainers who are highly touted and to be totally honest with you they can't shine my boots, I watch what they do. And this 7mos old DD that I have now is every bit a handful any pointer will ever be, in 95% of households he would be an absolute animal by now!
I totay know what I am in for, I have had my hand in helping others train them. I don't really care if the dog will do NAVHDA type work or not if it does that is fine, if not that is fine too. As stated before I have had quite a few breeds myself Springers,GSP's,Lab, DD's, and have been training director where I have had my hands on many dogs. I want a bird finding machine first, all else is secondary, trust me there are very few as dedicated as I, if the dog has the capability of becoming a NAVHDA UT dog then it will be if not I am totally satisfied with that, as I have 2 DD's that are more than capable.

Tell ya what Yawallac you cut me a deal on one of them pointers and I will show you what I can and can't do and will brag up your dogs to anyone who will listen, what better way to get advertisement out there

You got nothing to lose

Theresa · Post by **Theresa** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:56 pm

Oh! I can't wait for this!

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 8:54 pm

Theresa wrote:Oh! I can't wait for this!

Razor · Post by **Razor** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:10 pm

Well good luck. I bet your next goal is to get a DD to Ames.

Post by **topher40** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:22 pm

3forme-

Just take a minute to regain your composure.......... Ok now instead of looking for a free dog on the internet lets talk about buying a well bred one. Elhew/Miller/Guard Rail are all good dogs, find one that fits you for the price and stick with it. If you are such a great trainer and amatuers arent worthy of licking your boots then your shoul already have the connections to get free "washouts". Believe me I am not that well connected and I can get a free dog any day and dont have to insult people to do it. Yawallac is a nice guy but I doubt if he deals in giving dogs away to get word of mouth advertising when he can sell them and get the same thing!

P.S.
Yallawac -
if you are then I can give you some free advertising!!

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:25 pm

3forme,

You're right. I was presumptous and shouldn't have said that you couldn't train a Pointer for NAVHDA. Everyone said the same thing to me.

I liked your post. You sound like my kind of guy!

3forme · Post by **3forme** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 4:33 am

topher40 wrote:3forme-

Just take a minute to regain your composure.......... Ok now instead of looking for a free dog on the internet lets talk about buying a well bred one. Elhew/Miller/Guard Rail are all good dogs, find one that fits you for the price and stick with it. If you are such a great trainer and amatuers arent worthy of licking your boots then your shoul already have the connections to get free "washouts". Believe me I am not that well connected and I can get a free dog any day and dont have to insult people to do it. Yawallac is a nice guy but I doubt if he deals in giving dogs away to get word of mouth advertising when he can sell them and get the same thing!

P.S.
Yallawac -
if you are then I can give you some free advertising!!

Topher your looking at it all wrong I could pay 5k I am a self employed Electrician and General contractor who has made retirement money the last 7 yrs. I could pay for a dog but I thought I would offer to help someone who maybe needs recognition. If I were in the field trial circuit already I guarantee I would have free dogs all the time

At one time I was turning away customers that wanted dogs trained as I don't have the time or the facilities for multiple dogs at one time. And if anyone should feel insulted that would be me :roll: Yawallac can surely speak for himself he doesn't need you to mediate for him, I suppose nobody ever helped you to get you started, or you just didn't have the fortitude to ask? Don't judge people you don't know, there's alot of people who will pleasantly surprise you

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 9:09 am

3f I'll give you some help getting started.

First you have to understand a couple of things.

1) You may in fact be a fantastic technician when it comes to dog training, you may well even be one of the most talented people ever when it comes to reading a dog. However the internet is not the place to prove it and by blowing your own horn so much you MUST understand that the natural responses from people who actually do have the experience of of training dozens or even hundreds of dogs is going to be "BS what a blow hard".

2) Unless and until you understand number one you will never get past number two.

3) There are darn few serious breeders who have any need to give dogs away for any reason because a long history of quality breeding is all the advertisment they need.

4) There's not a single pointer breeder I have ever met that cares a hoot about "showing the NAVHDA boys that pointers can do anything continentals can".

Take some time to reflect on what people are telling you here because continuing on with the attitude you have is only going to make your life pretty uncomfortable. CR

Post by **pear** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 9:13 am

Well said Charlie....

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 9:52 am

Thank you Charlie

Ezzy

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:00 am

I don't know, I kind of liked his brashness. But I'm a Yankee, so it just sounded like home to me...

He'll find out soon enough that "training dogs" and "handling dogs" are horses of a different color.

3forme · Post by **3forme** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:38 am

WildRose wrote:3f I'll give you some help getting started.

First you have to understand a couple of things.

1) You may in fact be a fantastic technician when it comes to dog training, you may well even be one of the most talented people ever when it comes to reading a dog. However the internet is not the place to prove it and by blowing your own horn so much you MUST understand that the natural responses from people who actually do have the experience of of training dozens or even hundreds of dogs is going to be "BS what a blow hard".

<<So>>

4) There's not a single pointer breeder I have ever met that cares a hoot about "showing the NAVHDA boys that pointers can do anything continentals can".

<<That was never my intent at all, it's just another dog game for me to enjoy.>>

Take some time to reflect on what people are telling you here because continuing on with the attitude you have is only going to make your life pretty uncomfortable. CR

<<Point>>

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 11:40 am

"<<So>>" I once sold an extremely nice dog to a guy that had a very similar personality to yours. He claimed to be just like you the best undiscovered talent in dog training to come along in fifty years. He wanted a dog with the potential to make a really nice shooting dog/gun dog that was biddable, trainable, and had great style. He promised me that because he was such a great trainer he'd have the dog ready for National FT competition in just one year. He bragged and bragged endlessly about all of his accomplishments with retrievers, shutzen, and obedience training and how right after winning a national trial with this dog he'd also turn around and make a VC out of her.

I sent him a dog with all the ability to do anything that could be done with a top quality GSP. A year later he had turned her into a dog that pointed with poor intensity, flagged and tended to go down almost to her belly on the flush.

He of course blamed it all on the breeding of the dog, it had nothing at all to do with his frequent fryings with an e collar and beatings in between them. When asked about his harsh training methods he simply said "Any decently bred dog could have handled the pressure".

That's why "so". You can give the dog with the greatest potential on earth away for free to an idiot, and six months from the day he gets it all that's left is a dog that embarrasses the breeder until long after it is dead and gone.

"
<<That was never my intent at all, it's just another dog game for me to enjoy.>> "

Three that's so far from what you said in your first couple of posts particularly the first I'm wondering if there's an impostor on your keyboard or if you actually typed all of that without knowing what your fingers were doing.

"<<Point>>"

The point ? If you don't understand the point further explanations would be wasted. CR

3forme · Post by **3forme** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 12:11 pm

For your information that post was hit severely by the mods, I think you can get of your soapbox now OH GREAT ONE